How does Combat Power restore?

[Taurus]

G'day,

 

I have a question about how Combat Power restores for the FW-190-A8 which I hope can be answered definitively please.

I believe that the FW-190-A8 has a tabulated maximum time of 30mins at 2400RPM with ATA at 1.32 (Combat Power). 

If I fly at 25 minutes at this setting and then revert back to max continuous at 2300 with ATA at 1.2 

 

1. When I drop back to max continuous do I get the 30min Combat Power back straight away?

 

2. When I drop back to max continuous I only have 5mins Combat Power in reserve and have to wait 25 minutes before I get the full 30min Combat Power back?

 

3. If neither is the case then what is the time to fully recharge the 30min Combat Power if I fly 29:59 minutes in Combat Power and revert back to Max Continuous.

 

Thanks,

 

[the_emperor]

Without an artifical power/boost bar for the different engine settings you will never know how much and how fast your modes will be replenished/used up. 
hence why many would like see the option to turn the mechanic off

as it bears some weird fruits in regards how we manipulate our engines which are arcade like, but dont belong in a simulation

 

 

[Yogiflight]

8 hours ago, the_emperor said:

many would like see the option to turn the mechanic off

as it bears some weird fruits in regards how we manipulate our engines which are arcade like, but dont belong in a simulation

but turning off the mechanic makes it purely arcade. I know that many players want to be able to fly with max power from takeoff to landing, but the only thing this would simulate is how to play a first person shooter.

[CountZero]

9 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

but turning off the mechanic makes it purely arcade. I know that many players want to be able to fly with max power from takeoff to landing, but the only thing this would simulate is how to play a first person shooter.

so yak-1 lag-3 are arcade airplanes as they have no timers ?

 

if timer is off, yo still drain fuel mutch faster if using emergancy, compared to combat or continuous, so you could not just fly full power all the time, also overheating faster and so on...

 

Its just eliminating arcade part of game, recharges and timers. Whats so realistic in recharging my fantasy timer, its more ralsitic to be limited by fuel and heat.

atleast i can look at gauges to see whats going on, like real pilots did, they sure did not care about time of use of their power settings because their engines would not blow up like they do in game.

 

On 1/22/2024 at 1:26 AM, Taurus said:

G'day,

 

I have a question about how Combat Power restores for the FW-190-A8 which I hope can be answered definitively please.

I believe that the FW-190-A8 has a tabulated maximum time of 30mins at 2400RPM with ATA at 1.32 (Combat Power). 

If I fly at 25 minutes at this setting and then revert back to max continuous at 2300 with ATA at 1.2 

 

1. When I drop back to max continuous do I get the 30min Combat Power back straight away?

 

2. When I drop back to max continuous I only have 5mins Combat Power in reserve and have to wait 25 minutes before I get the full 30min Combat Power back?

 

3. If neither is the case then what is the time to fully recharge the 30min Combat Power if I fly 29:59 minutes in Combat Power and revert back to Max Continuous.

 

Thanks,

 

Turn on instrument panel and then youll be able to see in techchat buged messages that will tell you when your timer expire and when it gets recharged, only then youll know how mutch time it takes, no other way.

 

[the_emperor]

11 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

but turning off the mechanic makes it purely arcade. I know that many players want to be able to fly with max power from takeoff to landing, but the only thing this would simulate is how to play a first person shooter.

 

I can fly the La-5f with unlimited time of boosted/WEP mode, only limited by fuel and heat.

How does that work out?

[Robli]

Nobody has given definitive answer how the timers work exactly, but by experience I would say that once you go below the continuous max level, then you start to regenerate your combat timer again. Whether it is minute-by-minute or there is some other ratio, not sure. 

 

While the current timer-based system is not the best, I absolutely agree with Yogi that removing all restrictions would make the game a lot more arcade than what it is now. In real life the pilots had restrictions (instruction wise) of how to use the plane and they tried to follow these instructions. The purpose of these instructions might have been to preserve the engine lifetime for longer than a few missions or whatever; maybe the engine could have coped with an one-hour mission in combat power full time for real, but if everybody could use full power in this sim all the time, then it is definitely arcade and far from what happened in real life. What comes to Yaks, Laggs or La's, possibly their engines were already mechanically restricted the way that there were no restrictions (instruction wise) from pilots to fly with full throttle all the time, if needed. 

Edited January 24, 2024 by Robli

[Robli]

 

12 hours ago, CountZero said:

Turn on instrument panel and then youll be able to see in techchat buged messages that will tell you when your timer expire and when it gets recharged, only then youll know how mutch time it takes, no other way.

 

Hmm, so tech chat actually tells how much time you have on the timer and also how long it takes to recharge? If you go back to combat power during recharging, it shows again how much you have on timer again? I never knew that as I have always flown with tech chat off. If game gives out such messages, then it should not be very difficult to figure out the recharge-formula.

[the_emperor]

Though I understand why this timer mechanic was introduced in 2013, more than 10 years later I would except some more complexity in term of engine simulation.

My main issues are that

1. some planes dont have limits 

2. some planes have still wrong limits

3. the engine does not speak to use, no way to tell how much time on which setting is left or has replenished, no warning from the engine that we should close the throttle

4. rpm can be reduced to increase WEP (big no as it would really damage your engine)

on some planes and on some not though its the same engine (Spit 9 & P-51).

hence why I would like to see the option, just the option!, to turn that old timer mechanic off and give us the choice.

or introduce a complex engine simulation

 

[R33GZ]

7 hours ago, Robli said:

What comes to Yaks, Laggs or La's, possibly their engines were already mechanically restricted the way that there were no restrictions

I believe this was the case for the yak at least. Full forward on the throttle control was not the full capability of the engine. I guess yakovlev didn't trust the pilots not to destroy their engines?

[Yogiflight]

19 hours ago, CountZero said:

so yak-1 lag-3 are arcade airplanes as they have no timers ?

 

8 hours ago, the_emperor said:

I can fly the La-5f with unlimited time of boosted/WEP mode, only limited by fuel and heat.

How does that work out?

Guys, you didn't get the point. If an aircraft didn't have any restrictions in that way, then usually, because its power settings were more conservative. There is a reason why most aircrafts had restrictions, how long it was allowed to use certain power settings. The engineers were going to the limit of the used materials, so they got damaged when used too long at too high revs or forces. The time limits were chosen, so the probability of such damages was low enough for combat, because you definitely don't want your engine to die during a dogfight. You can in game, as in real life, go over the chosen times, but the longer you exceed them, the higher is the chance, that you kill your engine. The time you can exceed the time is longer when you fly with high speed levelled out, than when you are hard turning in a dogfight, because of lower tempertures and less stress to the mechanic parts of the engine.

[R33GZ]

Personally, I fly at cruise settings most of the time anyway. That way, you really do have extra power when you need it and you're not flying around with a dirty great radiator flap hanging out in the airstream 

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

I would also like to know when is the timer restored. For example in P-47D I have 15 minutes of combat power. I take off fully loaded using combat power (52/2700 rpm) and run the engine for 5 minutes at combat power. After that I go into cruise/nominal mode (eg. 35/2400RPM) and fly to for 25 minutes in cruise to my target, did my timer replenish or do I still have only 10 minutes of combat power left as I consumed 5 minutes of it during takeoff/initial climb? 

[2./SG2_assadoc]

1 hour ago, R33GZ said:

I believe this was the case for the yak at least. Full forward on the throttle control was not the full capability of the engine. I guess yakovlev didn't trust the pilots not to destroy their engines?

Yakovlev was the one who suggested to increase M-105PF engine's manifod pressure. And Klimov did so M-105PF-2 (VK-105PF-2) came out. And it was used primarely in Yak-3

[the_emperor]

13 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

If an aircraft didn't have any restrictions in that way, then usually, because its power settings were more conservative.

That is the questions isn it? Just because some manuals dont mention a limit, is there no limit?

e.g. the Yak/Laggs have no limit….and most manuals dont mention a time limit…but I just posted a manual giving 5min limit to the max boost setting.

so do we go with the most generous case or the opposite?

I posted numerous manuals stating a 5min limit for the La-5fn and its engine and only one states the 10min limit for the La-7…

and for the Bf109 the 1min was chosen though no manuals were produced so far that confirms that for the cleared DB605.

So I would like to see a clear route here, either go with the most generous limits or the most strict.

and dont mention the P-40 or the P-47…currently the biggest loser of the timer mechanic

its just a mess currently, so why not give us the option to choose whether we can turn than timer mechanic of or off?

Edited January 25, 2024 by the_emperor

[Taurus]

Thanks for all the great insight! I was not aware that techchat gave explicit notifications. I will study these notifications and experiment to guesstimate the "formula" used by 1C to determine engine destruction. 1C use a program routine to calculate this. It would be very helpful if 1C posted their "formula".

 

 

 

[the_emperor]

10 hours ago, Taurus said:

It would be very helpful if 1C posted their "formula"

This will never gonna happen.

My advise would be to get familiar with the plane you want to fly and test it for each plane invidually.

As said before, in many planes you can stretch the time  by reducing rpms while keeping the boost pressure in combat/WEP range (though this shouldnt be allowed but it is how the game and timer mechanic works). in some planes you are able to double/tripple the amount of time.

Edited January 25, 2024 by the_emperor

[[CPT]Crunch]

Soviets used a different piston connecting rod configuration is the reason why their engine limitations are different.  Articulated vs Fork and Blade rods, the fork and blade systems used by the Western Allies and Germans could output higher torque and handle higher RPM's with room to spare for periodic boost outputs while articulated rods couldn't be pushed further than a set maximum due to balance issues.  Articulated rods were never going to reach RPM levels to match the more complex machined and balanced speeds of a fork and blade system.  It was a design decision matched to their reality on the ground, even the Germans eventually ran into problems with their engines when their industrial capability began crumbling.

[Avimimus]

23 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Guys, you didn't get the point. If an aircraft didn't have any restrictions in that way, then usually, because its power settings were more conservative. There is a reason why most aircrafts had restrictions, how long it was allowed to use certain power settings. The engineers were going to the limit of the used materials, so they got damaged when used too long at too high revs or forces. The time limits were chosen, so the probability of such damages was low enough for combat, because you definitely don't want your engine to die during a dogfight. You can in game, as in real life, go over the chosen times, but the longer you exceed them, the higher is the chance, that you kill your engine. The time you can exceed the time is longer when you fly with high speed levelled out, than when you are hard turning in a dogfight, because of lower tempertures and less stress to the mechanic parts of the engine.

 

Exactly! Well put.

 

P.S. It is too bad we don't have Austro-Hungarian fighters - they'd make this discussion even more lively! ? 

[Yogiflight]

11 hours ago, the_emperor said:

My advise would be to get familiar with the plane you want to fly and test it for each plane invidually.

this

On 1/24/2024 at 6:52 PM, R33GZ said:

Personally, I fly at cruise settings most of the time anyway.

When there is enemy around, I use climb and combat power. 30 minutes is a lot of time. But emergency power only if an enemy fighter is on my, or I am on an enemy fighter's six. And only if nothing helps, I use maximum power.

Maybe some guys should try to fly a bit more tactically, instead with an all-in-attitude.

[Taurus]

Hmmm, Do flight leaders use the 10% rule?

[CountZero]

On 1/24/2024 at 6:49 PM, Yogiflight said:

 

Guys, you didn't get the point. If an aircraft didn't have any restrictions in that way, then usually, because its power settings were more conservative. There is a reason why most aircrafts had restrictions, how long it was allowed to use certain power settings. The engineers were going to the limit of the used materials, so they got damaged when used too long at too high revs or forces. The time limits were chosen, so the probability of such damages was low enough for combat, because you definitely don't want your engine to die during a dogfight. You can in game, as in real life, go over the chosen times, but the longer you exceed them, the higher is the chance, that you kill your engine. The time you can exceed the time is longer when you fly with high speed levelled out, than when you are hard turning in a dogfight, because of lower tempertures and less stress to the mechanic parts of the engine.

flying strait or in df dont have any effect on timers of engine, you have set time per mod on airplane , for example 1min, if 1min pass you have random time to failure.

and 1 min safe time is not same on all alts, soits not as simple as specs say, if it was there would not be ppl confused so mutch by this system.

 

Problem 1 is , game have techchat that shows all other stuff pilots didnt see, and this messages that would show playerexactly when timer expires and more importantly when it gets recharged is buged and only work if instrument panel setting is on, why not fix this ? so player have working tachchat messages about engine timers

 

problem 2, why not have realisam option to turn it of, i dont see purists complaining how real pilots didnt have icons abow enemy or frendly airplanes, or how real pilots could not view them self from outside of airplane, or how real pilots could not have autopilots or GPS and so on... why is this manual restriction on enines a line game cant cross and give on off option to players ?  if this was option from game start , to be on off, no one would be crusading to make it forced on, like its now.

 

I have no problem with them sticing to this system but bare minimum is to make player informed when exactly safe time of use of mode expires and when it gets recharged, aka fix tachcat bug. Real pilots would be informed about this if it was as stricked as it is in game, and random. 

 

This all "yust get used to it" is to me same as me telling guy asking for improved icons, oh but real pilots didnt have icons, just dont fly with them, i do it like that and i have no problems, game that have icons is just arcade game.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2024 by CountZero

[the_emperor]

3 hours ago, CountZero said:

problem 2, why not have realisam option to turn it of, i dont see purists complaining how real pilots didnt have icons abow enemy or frendly airplanes, or how real pilots could not view them self from outside of airplane, or how real pilots could not have autopilots or GPS and so on... why is this manual restriction on enines a line game cant cross and give on off option to players ?  if this was option from game start , to be on off, no one would be crusading to make it forced on, like its now.

 

I have no problem with them sticing to this system but bare minimum is to make player informed when exactly safe time of use of mode expires and when it gets recharged, aka fix tachcat bug. Real pilots would be informed about this if it was as stricked as it is in game, and random. 

 

True, As said before, just asking for the option to turn that off. not removing it from the game. Just the option to give us a choice

[Yogiflight]

17 hours ago, CountZero said:

flying strait or in df dont have any effect on timers of engine,

I never said so

 

17 hours ago, CountZero said:

Real pilots would be informed about this if it was as stricked as it is in game,

Today yes, but not at that time. They were informed, what they were allowed to use, the 1,3,5,30 minute time limits. Going over that time limits was on their own danger. Noone could have told them, how long it was safe to go over these time limits, simply because noone knew.

 

17 hours ago, CountZero said:

game have techchat that shows all other stuff pilots didnt see, and this messages that would show playerexactly when timer expires and more importantly when it gets recharged is buged and only work if instrument panel setting is on, why not fix this ? so player have working tachchat messages about engine timers

I am with you on this. If they give players that techchat, then it should work properly. Having a techchat, you can't trust on doesn't make any sense.

[RyanR]

I find it interesting that (at least some) MW50 timers seem to get a "recharge".... despite it being a consumable.

 

Honestly, I think the timers are fine....they give some consequence to the engine settings.... but you have to use technochat. It's hard to know what's going on without having detents/switches/etc on your physical hardware.

 

A timer is the only reality we can have for a flight sim. Otherwise, you'd have to simulate the engine itself.... which is not going to happen. Not soon anyway.

 

-Ryan

 

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, RyanR said:

I find it interesting that (at least some) MW50 timers seem to get a "recharge".... despite it being a consumable.

From what I remember, the Bf 109s with MW50 had enough of it for 3-4 times 10 minutes use.

EDIT: I just found in the specifications, it is 25-30 minutes use of MW50

Edited January 27, 2024 by Yogiflight

[RyanR]

On 1/27/2024 at 12:52 PM, Yogiflight said:

From what I remember, the Bf 109s with MW50 had enough of it for 3-4 times 10 minutes use.

EDIT: I just found in the specifications, it is 25-30 minutes use of MW50

 

Hum! Well I stand corrected. It makes sense that the MW50 can regen.... at least after the short durations that the 109's can run in Emergency power. Thanks for looking that up!

 

I know the P-40 has been a sticky wicket since forever, but the engine timers for a lot of aircraft help make the tactics a bit more interesting. You can't just live in WEP as you could with various sims in the past.

 

-Ryan

[the_emperor]

13 hours ago, RyanR said:

It makes sense that the MW50 can regen

 

The manual allows for 10min duration of Sondernotleistung (1.7ata), after 10 min you shall throttle back to a lesser power setting for 5 in before tapping into Sondernotleistung again.

The tank holds MW-50 for a total duration auf 25min...later models had an increased 115l tank for more MW50 fuel

Edited January 28, 2024 by the_emperor