Enigma: 2023 A Look Back. Was 2023 a good year for flight sims.

[DragonDaddy]

Interesting opinions and survey by a very well informed person

I think his take on IL2: GB is interesting and accurate. What do you think?

Edited January 13, 2024 by DragonDaddy
Added text

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

I have a blank screen ?

[Trooper117]

Works fine for me...

[CountZero]

not suprising resoults, also his view of GB MP is from american time, and it is empty then but in europe prime time there is still 1-2 full servers

 

regarding BMS doing all what ppl wont and still dont see ppl try it, its not suprising, its considered old game, so no mather if it provides better expiriance in MP then DCS ppl will just stick to DCS, same is gona be with CLOD, they can do all what ppl who say is stoping them from trying it, and it will still not be populated, even if they add VR, fix UI problems and so on... it is considered old to WT players wonting to try something more.

 

Path of new air game player now is start in WT and then skip all and go to DCS, and especialy now after WT focus more on jets, its just natural to go directly to game with jets but more serious one then WT.

 

its clear to him that next game is Korea by this devs, and considering how popular DCS is its logical that we move from ww2 props into jets to try expand player base. But if Korea gets same limits in AI comands and cooperation, MP and Mission Builder we have here, that aint gona be good, just making clicable cokpits or few % better FM/DM wont get DCS or WT players in, you need to offer what BMS offer to SP and MP but in new game with jets.

Edited January 14, 2024 by CountZero

[Jade_Monkey]

He left out Flying circus, because FC3 was released in 23. I suspect that Enigma, like myself, does not care about WWI and is not even counting it. For WW2 fans, it was a pretty tame year and the poor job with the messaging has been a bit of a downer.

[DD_Arthur]

I've no doubt it'll prove what an old fart I am but what is a 'Hoggiter'?

[Trooper117]

28 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

I've no doubt it'll prove what an old fart I am but what is a 'Hoggiter'?

 

Ditto... we are out of the loop mate!

[Jade_Monkey]

42 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

I've no doubt it'll prove what an old fart I am but what is a 'Hoggiter'?

 

DCS player? I believe Hoggit is a popular subreddit for DCS on Reddit. Assuming it's derived from the A-10 Warthog, maybe it has a narrower meaning for ppl who fly that plane, or like ground pounding?

[Lusekofte]

A10 is a plane for nerds 

you really have to devote yourself learning it.  I am at my ten’th try to learn its system. I fall asleep most of the time. But this time I will try to just do it. 
Enigma runs DCS servers and his Cold War server is really good. 

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Lusekofte said:

A10 is a plane for nerds 

you really have to devote yourself learning it.  I am at my ten’th try to learn its system. I fall asleep most of the time. But this time I will try to just do it. 
 

Well it’s a module for single people, no doubt. As are a few others to an extent. 

 

 

 

[Lusekofte]

3 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Well it’s a module for single people, no doubt. As are a few others to an extent. 

Yeah.  I noticed after I decided to learn it it is a huge threshold for me to even start DCS. 
Initially the reason for me quit the Hornet. 
Those damn modules suck the fun out of flying

[[CPT]Crunch]

These old games like CLOD and Falcon listened to whom exactly?  There were only a few playing them, so a pretty small pool of input to start, so why this big surprise they can't take off?  Nobody was asking beyond their own micro fan base, and that's the reality, so don't pretend.

 

Your going to have to blow away all the peers in visual candy and experience if you really want market share, don't care how great your game play is, if it's taking place in a cartoonish world in these days, forget about it.  Those visual standards have been toppled long ago.  Even Great Battles series is left of borderline these days.

[ICDP]

Even a niche has many niches.

 

I feel there is a lot of simmers who think hardcore = clickable cockpits and hi fidelity systems modelling.  Then we have the eye candy types who think MSFS is a yardstick sim for graphics.  Or the MP only crowd.  I used to think this until I convinced myself DCS was the "go to" sim for proper combat simmers.  After a few weeks "learning" the A10 I became quickly bored with the total lack of actual meat to the game.  It was the same when I went back a few years later to "learn" the Ka-50.

 

Then I remembered the most fun I had in flight simming was the old Digital Integration and Lucasarts days.  When the FMs were dodgy and the systems were mostly fantasy, but the gameplay was used to make up for those shortcomings.

• I stopped doing MP a long time ago in the IL-2 1946 days and have not once felt the need to go online in IL-2 GB.
• I don't care for clickable cockpits and super detailed system modelling.  I'm 55 and have no fantasies about ever being a real pilot. :?
• My interest for those large buses with wings in civil sims is zero.
• My interest in modern fighters is zero, and by modern I mean anything with guided air to air missiles from about 1960 on.
• The DCS approach is about releasing a plane with nothing really to do with it.  Look at their WWII modules, some nice planes and a nice map but not much else.

I wait with anticipation of the new Combat Pilot Pacfic War sim.  I also look forward to see what the new Korea sim looks like.

Edited January 14, 2024 by ICDP

[Lusekofte]

48 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

There were only a few playing them

Are you sure you are well informed? Clod mustered 3 times a weak 120 players in two servers for objective oriented flying. This lasted for years. Still their run full servers when there are happenings. 
I currently do not have head tracking so I do not fly it at home. But I do in my second house. 
By your standards GB has a micro fan base. 
And with Korea I think DCS and clod will benefit. Because they be the only ww2 focused games. But to me clod will always be a better alternative based on a lot of things. 
on servers Korea will be a Sabre and Mig fiesta, at least based on current gameplay in servers. 

36 minutes ago, ICDP said:

feel there is a lot of simmers who think hardcore = clickable cockpits and hi fidelity systems modelling.

Being very occupied with choppers in DCS this is indeed correct. But still what DCS got of complexity in systems it totally lack in damage models. 
I hop on the first sim capable of clod standard damage model. It got something for all. 

Edited January 14, 2024 by Lusekofte

[Avimimus]

8 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

He left out Flying circus, because FC3 was released in 23. I suspect that Enigma, like myself, does not care about WWI and is not even counting it.

 

Well that is a pretty big oversight though, isn't it?

 

3 hours ago, ICDP said:

I feel there is a lot of simmers who think hardcore = clickable cockpits and hi fidelity systems modelling.

 

This is something which has always annoyed me. What should matter is the underlying realism of the simulation - not the way it is controlled. One can make a product with a terrible FM, DM, combat environment etc. - but with a clickable cockpit.

 

One can also model individual switches, latches, details about flap operations - without a clickable cockpit. In some ways Cliffs of Dover or Il-2 Great Battles are more realistic than DCS (and vice versa)... but, IMHO, switchology isn't the most important part.

 

3 hours ago, ICDP said:

Even a niche has many niches.

 

I like that! Good quote.

 

[DD_Arthur]

7 minutes ago, Lusekofte said:

Are you sure you are well informed? Clod mustered 3 times a weak 120 players in two servers for objective oriented flying. This lasted for years. 

I was there too Luse. He is well informed.

You must have been flying on that one ‘objective oriented’ server because the other one was nothing but a low level dogfight over “english point” or “french point”.

As an alternative developed in the form of GBS so CLoD numbers evaporated.
It was terminally ill on release and it’s a zombie now. BMS has an acclaimed career system that bankrupted it’s developers. It’s another zombie. It’s not a commercially viable product. DCS has eaten it’s lunch.

 

Crunch is right; it’s all about the eye candy. Look to the foot of these boards and see how many members of these forums there are. 
 

I bet less than one per cent of them are even aware they’re members of a forum.

 

Its an interesting video by an interesting guy but it’s been made by and for the converted.

Thats us flightsim nerds who fly multiplayer and inhabit forums. The reality is that it’s all paid for by a vast horde of people who have no idea we exist.

At the end of the day what sells is what appeals to our pleasure senses. In the case of sims and ‘computer games’ generally it’s the latest and greatest. It’s a beauty contest.

 

Human nature, aka consumer behaviour, is repelled by the old, the ugly, the unfashionable  and the obsolete.

If the hordes don’t buy, we don’t get what we want either.

[Trooper117]

3 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

A10 is a plane for nerds 

 

OI!!!... I resemble that remark, I'm going to the headmasters office to report you!... (but yeah, It frazzled my brain and I gave up too)  

[Lusekofte]

30 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

was there too Luse. He is well informed.

You must have been flying on that one ‘objective oriented’ server because the other one was nothing but a low level dogfight over “english point” or “french point”.

I was referring to ACG server

15 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

 

OI!!!... I resemble that remark, I'm going to the headmasters office to report you!... (but yeah, It frazzled my brain and I gave up too)  

It was the reason I bought Lock on but it lost me when going full fidelity. Still it give me grief not having the ability and patience to learn it. Process is just too boring 

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, Lusekofte said:

I was referring to ACG server

What, a password protected server run for and by a members only club?

M’okay?

 

This could be a DSC honesty thread. I enjoyed DSC when I used it - the WW2 stuff not so much - but out of the…..ten or so modules I own I think I only had the time or inclination to scratch the surface of perhaps two of them……

 

The more I think about it, the more I suspect I had more fun with LockOn and the FC3 planes than DCS itself.

[ICDP]

9 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

The more I think about it, the more I suspect I had more fun with LockOn and the FC3 planes than DCS itself.

 

I was the same, I bought a load of DCS modules but never had the inclination to even scratch the surface of their systems.  I gave up when I bought the Mirage 2000 and all I did was fly about Nevada and didn't ever even launch a missile from it.  I dd the same with Steel Beast PE and gave up.  This was back when I was convinced I loved study sims that went into minute detail, but every time I try one I ended up giving up.

 

A good single player campaign, preferably a dynamic one and I am much happier.

 

 

[Lusekofte]

39 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

This could be a DSC honesty thread. I enjoyed DSC when I used it - the WW2 stuff not so much - but out of the…..ten or so modules I own I think I only had the time or inclination to scratch the surface of perhaps two of them……

 

The more I think about it, the more I suspect I had more fun with LockOn and the FC3 planes than DCS itself.

I do not disagree with you. To me DCS ww2 do not appeal very much. They have a very good P 47. In short DCS offers something else. 
And GB going Korea I will have to find something else for something else. 
I still wish for GB to get a more complex DM and other things sorted. 

[Lusekofte]

44 minutes ago, Lusekofte said:

still wish for GB to get a more complex DM and other things sorted. 

I just realised that I wish that for DCS too and better rendering/ spotting

[Robli]

One interesting thing about this survey was that only 10% of the respondents said that they play only single player and Enigma's comment about them being new simmers who "have not graduated" to multiplayer yet. Most of us probably remember the often-referred comment from Jason years ago, how 90% of the player base was single player (or something like that).

[Robli]

 

In general there were not many surprises in the survey. Maybe the positive outlook of CloD was kind of surprising, as it is basically a dead game in my opinion. The last announcement of course looks exciting, flyable B-17 and all, but I doubt that in reality many players would go back and stick to that game, because it has already become too small and there is too small team behind it to keep updating it in a timely fashion, in addition it just being old. 

Falcon/BMS actually looks nice, but it has the burden of having similar toys but in a lot smaller sandbox than DCS, so while many people might like the idea of going there, probably end up sticking with DCS.

[Soto_Cinematics]

On 1/15/2024 at 8:34 PM, Robli said:

 

In general there were not many surprises in the survey. Maybe the positive outlook of CloD was kind of surprising, as it is basically a dead game in my opinion. The last announcement of course looks exciting, flyable B-17 and all, but I doubt that in reality many players would go back and stick to that game, because it has already become too small and there is too small team behind it to keep updating it in a timely fashion, in addition it just being old. 

Falcon/BMS actually looks nice, but it has the burden of having similar toys but in a lot smaller sandbox than DCS, so while many people might like the idea of going there, probably end up sticking with DCS.

 

I have a feeling IL-2 Clod will see some kind of resurgence with the ability to implement flyable 4 engine bombers (B-17, announced Lancaster, B-24) and large scale scenarios in theatres people have a high interest in (announced Malta, Sicily maps after Western Desert). It has its flaws but it seems that when complete, Clod will in be one of the only sims able to offer a fleshed out WWII air war game that will span 1940-1944. If the new modules sell well Im sure the UI and other systems would be updated.

[ACG_Bussard]

10 hours ago, Soto_Cinematics said:

 

I have a feeling IL-2 Clod will see some kind of resurgence with the ability to implement flyable 4 engine bombers (B-17, announced Lancaster, B-24) and large scale scenarios in theatres people have a high interest in (announced Malta, Sicily maps after Western Desert). It has its flaws but it seems that when complete, Clod will in be one of the only sims able to offer a fleshed out WWII air war game that will span 1940-1944. If the new modules sell well Im sure the UI and other systems would be updated.

They looking currently what is  required to do a comprehensive re-write of the code for the GUI (may check the thread: Discussion of TF 6.5 Aircraft Preview)

Edited January 20, 2024 by Bussard*
It was late ;)

[DD_Arthur]

Yawn. Another meaningless statement by TFS.

It’s taken them some seven years to produce a very poor, simple map and it’s four years and counting for VR and weather.

 

 

[Lusekofte]

On 1/15/2024 at 10:10 AM, Robli said:

10% of the respondents said that they play only single player and Enigma's comment about them being new simmers who "have not graduated" to multiplayer yet

Well I probably never get a grade. 
 

 

On 1/15/2024 at 10:34 AM, Robli said:

CloD was kind of surprising

Not to me. But clod is as said an old game. I always wondered what game will get me stuck. Like those still flying IL 2 ,aces high 

I probably be among the last playing clod. 
because that game give a challenge and playability that no other sim give. 
Even DCs got a pretty old way of dm. 

On 1/20/2024 at 7:33 PM, DD_Arthur said:

Yawn. Another meaningless statement by TFS.

It’s taken them some seven years to produce a very poor, simple map and it’s four years and counting for VR and weather.

 

 

VR might very well be a big blunder for that game. I am not sure it ever will be sorted. 
But to me it is a better ww2 game than Gb. 

[Robli]

15 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

Not to me. But clod is as said an old game. I always wondered what game will get me stuck. Like those still flying IL 2 ,aces high 

I probably be among the last playing clod. 

 

That is not surprising to me that you and some other clear CloD fans would still be playing it next year and maybe after five or ten years, but from a survey of almost 1000 people it was quite surprising to see that so many believed in CloD's future. I am not a gambling man, but I could bet that CloD player base is not bigger at the end of 2024 than it was at the end of 2023. My prediction is that if they are able to release their next module with B17's and all at some point (not in 2024), then it might get some temporary attention from somewhat bigger audience (old-timers) and after a month or two drop back to the minimal level it is now. 

[Dagwoodyt]

If a developer has no full time staffers and is dependent on gaining and keeping volunteer staffers to handle "grunt" work, timelines are meaningless. If and when the B-17 DLC gets released it may very well be 2D only and GUI unchanged. OTOH, reading over the top fantasies based upon multiple bold pronouncements is always entertaining.

[Lusekofte]

On 1/30/2024 at 8:53 AM, Robli said:

CloD player base is not bigger at the end of 2024 than it was at the end of 2023.

You are right, I think. What give me the ticks is glorification of GB and at the same time giving clod a broken game status. Both can obviously be used well by avoiding its obstacles. Give me a perfect cfs for all. Can anyone point me to it?

The biggest bugger I got, is when GB might fix it problems after 10+ years it is no longer a ww2 cfs ?

and a lot of people (traitors as I like to call them) support this. 

[Enceladus828]

On 1/29/2024 at 11:53 PM, Robli said:

My prediction is that if they are able to release their next module with B17's and all at some point (not in 2024), then it might get some temporary attention from somewhat bigger audience (old-timers) and after a month or two drop back to the minimal level it is now. 

I wouldn't be too sure about that. By then the Visual Update and VR will be released along with interesting toys like the early Typhoons, P-51A, Fw-190A (early) and Beaufighter VI. For the B-17, apart from War Thunder, Mods and games dedicated exclusively to the B-17 like The Mighty 8th, what high fidelity combat flight sim has a flyable B-17? The last game I can think of was Firepower back in 2004. So, with the Visual Update and what we'll get in DIEPPE the player base will likely increase and not drop to the minimal level after a few months. With the flyable Lancaster coming next year and a flyable B-24D coming in the installment after that, it's player base is on the right track to keep increasing.

 

I look forward to what we'll get in GBs, Dover and Combat Pilot in 2024 even if it's as little as EA and Alpha.

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Lusekofte said:

You are right, I think. What give me the ticks is glorification of GB and at the same time giving clod a broken game status. Both can obviously be used well by avoiding its obstacles. Give me a perfect cfs for all. Can anyone point me to it?

The biggest bugger I got, is when GB might fix it problems after 10+ years it is no longer a ww2 cfs ?

and a lot of people (traitors as I like to call them) support this. 

I know what you’re saying - but PTO is WWII, and will benefit from the upgrades. Shame about the rest of the content though. 

[IckyATLAS]

Just saw the video. Thanks to Enigma, I found it very interesting. I did not participate in the poll as being an IL2GB only sim gamer (except a little with COD) did not have much of a comparative opinion but the results concerning IL2GB did not surprise me at all. To be fair I played all the jet sims as I played all the flight sims but stopped short as I basically do not like much jets and so have not enough experience to compare. Combat Pilot has very high and positive expectations (including from me) because the huge PTO fan base dating from the Oleg era is probably still there and there is nobody else to offer this revival, so if they pull it off it will be a huge success no doubt, and if someone can make it that's Jason for sure. 

 

I would have liked Enigma in his poll to have a few questions related to those who build missions and are users of game editors and compare what every game has to offer in that direction. That population is probably extremely small, but still it would have been interesting to know. Maybe in a future poll end 2024.

 

Even with the pretty negative outlook I think IL2GB has still a great potential but lost (through bad marketing and communication) a lot of its base and so the critical mass to attract more players. There was a moment where they gave the impression that they did not really "need" customers/players and where doing things according to their internal "opinions", "liking""wishes" etc.. If it happens that you want to play "their game", fine but that's all, don't bother them with your requests or comments.  To be fair they delivered what was promised before they entered the black hole two years ago. The problem here is when you piss off or loose players to get them back is extremely difficult. You must not loose them in the first instance. This is just basic commercial good sense, first keep your existing customer base happy.

Getting out of a black hole is very difficult due to very strong gravity. To be fair again it seems the team now tries to improve things by communicating more but it will be very difficult to climb the cliff "of dover"?. 

 

If Korea can help recoup the lost base than it is all the better for the whole GB collection. But DCS and other seem to be  formidable contenders so the jury is out.

My opinion is that PTO would have been a better choice to get their fan base back, because they could beat Combat Pilot (who starts from scratch) on the timing and deliver it first. Competition against Combat Pilot would have been easier than going against DCS. But again here I feel the decision is biased according to preferences related to a theater where soviet planes are to be used, and so aimed more to their domestic market. As usual time will tell but as long as new developments are made light may be seen at the end of the tunnel.

[Lusekofte]

A lot of devoted pilots from 10 years back fell off this wagon after flying it for 4 to 6 years. Almost all because of this game apparent back draws. And it was given an impression they were to fix it. Only later years they admitted most was due to short comings of the game engine. 
People’s expectation is sky high , next best is simply not good enough. A revamped game engine + might not cut it. Something happened when msfs 2020 came along. And I have to say I am more curious about msfs 2024 than this Korea thing. If they got proper missions like SAR and fire fighting it is going to be a winner. Since IL 2 abandoned ww2 I see no other option than setting up a curved screen and brush dust of my trackir. And fly clod. 

[Flying_Anchor]

9 минут назад, Lusekofte сказал:

Since IL 2 abandoned ww2 I

They didnt.

[Lusekofte]

16 minutes ago, Flying_Anchor said:

They didnt.

For the next two years they did. Right now that is a time frame I can afford think of. 

[LukeFF]

Luse, sorry, but @Flying_Anchor is correct. WWII is not being abandoned. 

[Enceladus828]

10 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

Even with the pretty negative outlook I think IL2GB has still a great potential but lost (through bad marketing and communication) a lot of its base and so the critical mass to attract more players. There was a moment where they gave the impression that they did not really "need" customers/players and where doing things according to their internal "opinions", "liking""wishes" etc.. If it happens that you want to play "their game", fine but that's all, don't bother them with your requests or comments.  To be fair they delivered what was promised before they entered the black hole two years ago. The problem here is when you piss off or loose players to get them back is extremely difficult. You must not loose them in the first instance. This is just basic commercial good sense, first keep your existing customer base happy.

Getting out of a black hole is very difficult due to very strong gravity. To be fair again it seems the team now tries to improve things by communicating more but it will be very difficult to climb the cliff "of dover"?. 

I just don't understand why we have to wait so long for the official announcement on what we'll get in the new project. We saw some WIP images of a B-29 so if there is stuff that can be shown at a WIP stage there can be an official announcement. They can make official announcements whenever they want so that makes this further puzzling. The recent Brief Rooms didn't really answer much on the new project and we learned more about what we'll get in a Pacific installment right after the new project. Their reason for not doing the Invasion of Sicily because it's too urban felt to me like an excuse. It's not that urban -- Rome, Naples and Tunis can be omitted -- and most of it is open sea. My guess is that a Korea installment would sell better.

For FC it seems that it will finish with the remaining land-planes and then nothing else, no Channel Map, no seaplanes. Why are there no plans for the Channel Map? It's all being done by a 3rd-party and it would just be 3 planes and a map, much simpler than with the other FC volumes. If FC1 showed that there was an appetite for WW1 content in IL-2 GBs and we've gotten 3 volumes with the remaining land-planes next to come then there is an appetite for the Channel Map, seaplanes, Tarnopol Map and an Italian Front map.

 

This shows how utmost important communication is.

 

10 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

If Korea can help recoup the lost base than it is all the better for the whole GB collection. But DCS and other seem to be  formidable contenders so the jury is out.

My opinion is that PTO would have been a better choice to get their fan base back, because they could beat Combat Pilot (who starts from scratch) on the timing and deliver it first. Competition against Combat Pilot would have been easier than going against DCS.

I don't think there will be much competition between GBs Pacific and Combat Pilot. With GBs they'll probably do New Guinea including Rabaul and make the B-25 flyable. After that they could do Burma which would include some BoN and BoBP aircraft there, or they could do the Philippines. With Combat Pilot they'd probably do Guadalcanal after Midway and then Tarawa. They're just trying to give us content that we haven't seen before or in 20 years in a high fidelity flight sim. 

Edited February 12, 2024 by Enceladus828
added Midway

[IckyATLAS]

1 hour ago, Enceladus828 said:

I don't think there will be much competition between GBs Pacific and Combat Pilot. With GBs they'll probably do New Guinea including Rabaul and make the B-25 flyable. After that they could do Burma which would include some BoN and BoBP aircraft there, or they could do the Philippines. With Combat Pilot they'd probably do Guadalcanal and then Tarawa. They're just trying to give us content that we haven't seen before or in 20 years in a high fidelity flight sim. 

That is a good argument except that my understanding is that Combat Pilot is now doing Midway. Ig IL2 GB does other places then yes it may not be competition. But as the IL2 PTO is many years away, Combat Pilot will most probably be the first out and that's a very good thing as I am very tired of waiting for this theater. When it comes out I hope I won't be too old ?