VPforce Rhino - Modern FFB Joystick

[SCG_motoadve]

I find FFB works better in DCS in some planes than others P47, P51, Spitfire, Mosquito, works great, Dora and FW190A8 makes the motor overheat in my case, 109K4 works ok, IL2 is more consistent, (have not tested all planes though)IL2 FFB its pretty good.

[Varibraun]

5 hours ago, Youtch said:

I was wandering why the gears are coming uncovered.

I know that Q4RIGS proposes covers, but I am surprised they do not come per default or are not sold on VPForce website direclty. Any idea why?

 

What the consensus regarding the use of VPFore TelemFFB software in IL2 and DCS?

 

Thanks to the community for helping with my choice and for your insights.

 

1.  I have wondered the same thing about gear covers and will likely still order them when I can find them.  However, the only reason I may need them is because I want to pull the base a little further into the notch of my Open Wheeler flight seat and not to have to worry about them rubbing against the seat.  Otherwise, they are not a problem uncovered.

 

2.  I have still only had time for IL2, but my experience here has been very good with running the TelemFFB in addition to the native IL2 force feedback.  I think TelemFFB is essential for the best experience in IL2.  However, see my firmware caveat below:

 

** This week I upgraded the Rhino firmware to the most recent beta (I thought it was necessary to use the most recent release of TelemFFB).  So far, it has left me with a few issues that I have not yet had enough time to resolve (some folks on Discord have been posting trying to help me on the first issue, but no success yet for me):

-My stick has some "resting oscillation" that while it doesn't impact flight, is somewhat disconcerting to see it shake when I am not using it.

-I cannot seem to get the G-force function working (new or old G-force function) in the new firmware.  Before the beta firmware, the stick became properly stiff when pulling out of a dive and this doesn't seem to be happening now despite my adjustments in TelemFFB.  I need more testing on this with various AC, but haven't had enough time yet.

 

So my advice is to stay with the current firmware and TelemFFB for right now.  Mine may be an isolated issue, so I would be interested to hear the thoughts of anyone else here who may have already gone to the beta.

 

 

[Dagwoodyt]

I found it very easy to get the Y-axis motor to 49deg. doing 1v1 I-16 dogfights in GB. I ended up turning the pot on the Rhino base down to 50%. Current settings don't seem to strain the pitch axis motor nearly as much. I am wondering how the dynamic spring function is supposed to be used. After activating it nothing seems to have changed for either better or worse.🤔

I am starting to believe that overwhelming power in a base is unnecessary. All that is needed is enough feedback to permit the stick to provide feel for the forces of flight. Great stick forces may not provide a satisfying experience if the software side isn't developed to make best and safest use of that power.

 

[Varibraun]

 

17 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I found it very easy to get the Y-axis motor to 49deg. doing 1v1 I-16 dogfights in GB. I ended up turning the pot on the Rhino base down to 50%. Current settings don't seem to strain the pitch axis motor nearly as much. I am wondering how the dynamic spring function is supposed to be used. After activating it nothing seems to have changed for either better or worse.🤔

I am starting to believe that overwhelming power in a base is unnecessary. All that is needed is enough feedback to permit the stick to provide feel for the forces of flight. Great stick forces may not provide a satisfying experience if the software side isn't developed to make best and safest use of that power.

 

I generally run at 50% on the knob also (give or take depending on the aircraft) and find that to be plenty of force for me.  I am not using an extension.  I use the Adaptive Recentering in the Spring effects which brings a little more life to the stick.  Regarding the interplay between the Settings and Effects, here is a good Discord exchange with Walmis and Hiob that helped me understand (in this case it may be that IL2 is driving the spring, so your 70% i n Effects are overridden leaving the Setting Spring at 100%):

 

Edited November 7, 2024 by Varibraun

[Dagwoodyt]

2 hours ago, Varibraun said:

I am not using an extension. 

Same here. So, without an extension, top of grip clears bottom of my desk top by 2.5cm.🙂

[Aapje]

6 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Same here. So, without an extension, top of grip clears bottom of my desk top by 2.5cm.🙂

Like I always said, 2.5 cm is all you need.

[Youtch]

I have it all setup, without extension and without limiter.

 

I have tried it in DCS and it works, now still pending to try it in IL2.

 

But i see a lot of configuration work to come, to tune it to my taste.

 

VPForce software is amazingly well done.

[BOO]

My Rhino approaches English shores where it will be peppered with 20% Value Added Flak and held prisioner at Stalag Luft Teeside until I produce a plucky escape plan for it with the contents of my wallet.

[Youtch]

I love what I have tried so far, the implementation in DCS is very good, and TelemFFB add a LOT.

 

I managed to get it to work with IL2 as well, but while I was expecting the elevator in Bf109 to become stiff in dive with speed, I didn t get to feel it (at least with default configuration). I will have to dig much deeper later on.

[dgiatr]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

I love what I have tried so far, the implementation in DCS is very good, and TelemFFB add a LOT.

 

I managed to get it to work with IL2 as well, but while I was expecting the elevator in Bf109 to become stiff in dive with speed, I didn t get to feel it (at least with default configuration). I will have to dig much deeper later on.

I am afraid you will not get more stiffness to your elevator as speed rises but only if you pull some g's at that time then your stick will become more stiff. I don't know if it's right that way though ( I am using the new g effect of telemffb not the legacy one..)

[Youtch]

The reason why the elevator shall become stiff is speed, regadles of the Gs, this is why in a high dive it was very difficult for pilots to recover and some would crash to the ground, as per the strength required to pull on the control surface at high speed.

 

The opposite way around shall be true as well, low speed shall imply on ww2 aircraft the stick being moved without any resistance.

 

I saw a lot of vids about this, I thought it was implemented in WW2, but maybe it works only in DCS:

 

 

Is it configurable to work in a similar way in Il2?

 

[dgiatr]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

Is it configurable to work in a similar way in Il2?

 

I haven't managed to make it work that way yet. Let me know if you find anything relevant...nor roll works that way..

Edited November 8, 2024 by dgiatr

[dgiatr]

7 hours ago, Youtch said:

The reason why the elevator shall become stiff is speed, regadles of the Gs, this is why in a high dive it was very difficult for pilots to recover and some would crash to the ground, as per the strength required to pull on the control surface at high speed.

 

The opposite way around shall be true as well, low speed shall imply on ww2 aircraft the stick being moved without any resistance.

 

I saw a lot of vids about this, I thought it was implemented in WW2, but maybe it works only in DCS:

 

 

Is it configurable to work in a similar way in Il2?

 

What you are searching for is called "spring dynamic" and it's a function of the spring force versus plane speed but as i see it's implemented in Microsoft flight simulator not in il2...

[Youtch]

12 hours ago, dgiatr said:

What you are searching for is called "spring dynamic" and it's a function of the spring force versus plane speed but as i see it's implemented in Microsoft flight simulator not in il2...

It is also implemented in DCS, can it be simulated by TelemFFB, even if IL2 does not support it?

 

I believe we must have missed something as in this video with Rhino and IL2, the stiffness clearly changes with air flow from the propeller and speed:

 

And here:

 

I tried to play with Balance spring as well, as I have a heavy grip , and came with values around 30%. But together with the new G-force effect it adds really too much resistance to the stick. Any advice?

 

Thanks again,

y.

Edited November 9, 2024 by Youtch

[dgiatr]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

It is also implemented in DCS, can it be simulated by TelemFFB, even if IL2 does not support it?

 

I believe we must have missed something as in this video with Rhino and IL2, the stiffness clearly changes with air flow from the propeller and speed:

 

And here:

 

I tried to play with Balance spring as well, as I have a heavy grip , and came with values around 30%. But together with the new G-force effect it adds really too much resistance to the stick. Any advice?

 

Thanks again,

y.

1. Did you enable "force feedback" from inside the game or not?I haven't enabled it yet and I will to see what happens...probably it aids telemffb to get some more telemetry data but others say not to enable it in order to avoid possible conflict in effects with telemffb. I will check. .

2. About the elevator droop there is a setting in telemffb that, to be honest, I haven't enabled yet. So I will see how it works

3 When I go home I will send you my settings, I also remember that I have enabled "balance spring" too and in the beginning my stick was very stiff too  in every g force so I ended to set g force strength at about 20% in the new g force feature and now it's OK but you have to pull some g's first for the stick to become stiff which as you say it's not right.

I am also waiting for a answer from Walmis in discord...about our issue about stick stiffness vs speed..

Edited November 9, 2024 by dgiatr

[GVL224]

08.11.2024 в 15:15, Youtch сказал:

Is it configurable to work in a similar way in Il2?

 

I fly on such a joystick in Il-2, I also have pedals with feedback!
I like it very much!
I work on Throttle with "feedback".

[Dagwoodyt]

I think that elevator droop is enabled by default for some GB aircraft. I have ffb enabled in-game. With settings I have stick resistance is not excesssive as y-axis motor is still in mid 30's after 11 minute DF in I-16 vs "ace" IAR 80. Controls do seem to stiffen with speed. Diving Spitfire Vb from 10k controls do seem to stiffen then relax as speed drops off in climb out for same amount of stick input. ATM I keep "Spring Gain" pot on Rhino base no more than 40%.

 

[dgiatr]

My settings for my favorite La5 Fn

[dgiatr]

On 11/9/2024 at 12:03 PM, Youtch said:

It is also implemented in DCS, can it be simulated by TelemFFB, even if IL2 does not support it?

 

I believe we must have missed something as in this video with Rhino and IL2, the stiffness clearly changes with air flow from the propeller and speed:

 

And here:

 

I tried to play with Balance spring as well, as I have a heavy grip , and came with values around 30%. But together with the new G-force effect it adds really too much resistance to the stick. Any advice?

 

Thanks again,

y.

Finally Rhino ffb solved partially the issue of stick stiffness vs speed ( except g's forces ) by introducing "Spring dynamics" effect in their last Rhino ffb configurator version, its in the spring force domain. It works as it should,  the only issue I see so far is that the spring force stiffness effect vs speed augmentation is a little weak if your normal speed  spring force isn't high enough. As a solution to this, higher output spring coefficient values more than 2.00 ( 3.00 or more ) would be possible?

What do you guys think?

[Varibraun]

12 hours ago, dgiatr said:

Finally Rhino ffb solved partially the issue of stick stiffness vs speed ( except g's forces ) by introducing "Spring dynamics" effect in their last Rhino ffb configurator version, its in the spring force domain. It works as it should,  the only issue I see so far is that the spring force stiffness effect vs speed augmentation is a little weak if your normal speed  spring force isn't high enough. As a solution to this, higher output spring coefficient values more than 2.00 ( 3.00 or more ) would be possible?

What do you guys think?

 

Thank you for finding this.  I just tried "Spring Dynamics" with the stock setting and was definitely feeling it in the P-51.  Agreed, nothing huge, but when approaching 400 mph I had no question it was working for me (100% on the Spring Global&Effects, with 50% on the pot knob, Adaptive Recentering Active).  See below: 

 

 

 

[dgiatr]

5 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

Thank you for finding this.  I just tried "Spring Dynamics" with the stock setting and was definitely feeling it in the P-51.  Agreed, nothing huge, but when approaching 400 mph I had no question it was working for me (100% on the Spring Global&Effects, with 50% on the pot knob, Adaptive Recentering Active).  See below: 

 

 

 

You can set the green line in spring dynamics diagram higher if you want for a stronger effect.

X axis diagram  is roll

Y axis diagram is elevator

 

Edited November 18, 2024 by dgiatr

[Youtch]

Many thanks for sharing!

 

I had totally missed the "Spring dependent setting" for heavy grip!

 

If activating Spring Dynamic is it applied accross the board or it is controled by the application using it? Hence allowing different responses per plane types or in IL2 and DCS.

 

My understanding is that most of the effects in "effects tab" are overwritten by the application (except if selecting Sticky option), as per the clarification from Walmis on Discord:

 

"The sim overrides the effect listed in the effects tab. The spring % in the settings tab is global."

 

Edited November 18, 2024 by Youtch

[Varibraun]

8 hours ago, Youtch said:

If activating Spring Dynamic is it applied accross the board or it is controled by the application using it? Hence allowing different responses per plane types or in IL2 and DCS.

 

My understanding is that most of the effects in "effects tab" are overwritten by the application (except if selecting Sticky option), as per the clarification from Walmis on Discord:

 

"The sim overrides the effect listed in the effects tab. The spring % in the settings tab is global."

 

My "thought" (and that is all this is, probably best to ask on Discord if you haven't already) is that Spring Dynamic applies across the board since it is in the Settings vs Effects menu and comes under the submenu "Global Effects Limits"

 

Regarding the "Effects" tab, when I finally saw/understood this override, I decided to push the main items (Spring/Damper/Inertia/Friction) listed under Effects up to 100% and to then control them simply via the "Settings" menu so that I was more "certain" of what I was doing in tuning.  I have no clue if this is a good idea, but it was suggested at some point by Hiob in Discord and that made sense to me.

 

12 hours ago, dgiatr said:

You can set the green line in spring dynamics diagram higher if you want for a stronger effect.

X axis diagram  is roll

Y axis diagram is elevator

 

Thanks, I will give this a try!

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, Varibraun said:

Regarding the "Effects" tab, when I finally saw/understood this override, I decided to push the main items (Spring/Damper/Inertia/Friction) listed under Effects up to 100% and to then control them simply via the "Settings" menu so that I was more "certain" of what I was doing in tuning.  I have no clue if this is a good idea, but it was suggested at some point by Hiob in Discord and that made sense to me.

I do the same thing. The reality as i learned today in Discord is that apparently there is no game as of today controlling Dumper/Inertia/Fraction, so the value in Effect tab are never overwritten.

 

As per dynamic spring it would be a pity if it applies accross the board and it is not controlled by the app, because while I would appreciate a Bf109 s control to become more rigid with speed, i would hate the F16 to have the same behaviour.

 

Y.

[Varibraun]

48 minutes ago, Youtch said:

As per dynamic spring it would be a pity if it applies accross the board and it is not controlled by the app, because while I would appreciate a Bf109 s control to become more rigid with speed, i would hate the F16 to have the same behaviour.

 

Good point!  If I am correct about it being global (and I certainly may not be), I guess the only solution is to remember to turn it off if the Sim already models this effectively.  If not, then it can be adjusted based on which A/C you are flying per @dgiatr's suggestion above, but it would be nice if it could be modeled in TeleFFB instead so that it could be a/c specific. 

[dgiatr]

4 hours ago, Youtch said:

I do the same thing. The reality as i learned today in Discord is that apparently there is no game as of today controlling Dumper/Inertia/Fraction, so the value in Effect tab are never overwritten.

 

As per dynamic spring it would be a pity if it applies accross the board and it is not controlled by the app, because while I would appreciate a Bf109 s control to become more rigid with speed, i would hate the F16 to have the same behaviour.

 

Y.

 

2 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

Good point!  If I am correct about it being global (and I certainly may not be), I guess the only solution is to remember to turn it off if the Sim already models this effectively.  If not, then it can be adjusted based on which A/C you are flying per @dgiatr's suggestion above, but it would be nice if it could be modeled in TeleFFB instead so that it could be a/c specific. 

Guys I am afraid it's global....but we shouldn't complain as previous version didn't even have it. As I see it Walmis continuously improves  Rhino configurator and telemffb and it's possible to make "spring dynamics" work differently for every plane in future versions ( I hope..)

[SCG_motoadve]

3 hours ago, dgiatr said:

 

Guys I am afraid it's global....but we shouldn't complain as previous version didn't even have it. As I see it Walmis continuously improves  Rhino configurator and telemffb and it's possible to make "spring dynamics" work differently for every plane in future versions ( I hope..)

For DCS you can choose for each plane, I dont know if the same for IL2

[Youtch]

4 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

For DCS you can choose for each plane, I dont know if the same for IL2

But here you can chose to override the gain, not to decide to apply or not apply Dynamic Spring

[dgiatr]

Going the Rhino ffb route for joystick and Mfg rudder pedals too.

Rhino joystick ffb kit works about a month now , trying to finish my Rhino ffb rudder pedals for now...

Edited November 25, 2024 by dgiatr

[Varibraun]

1 hour ago, dgiatr said:

trying to finish my Rhino ffb rudder pedals for now...

 

Following with interest to see what you think and how hard it was to complete!

[Youtch]

For those with Rhino and Dof reality platform, how do you mount the Rhino base to the platform?

 

Did you have to buy any other accessories for it?

 

It is very hard to deduce from the website of Dof Reality what is it exactly coming with by default and what needs to be bought on the side to mount joystick and Hotas.

 

Many thanks in advance,

Y.

Edited November 28, 2024 by Youtch

[Varibraun]

3 hours ago, Youtch said:

For those with Rhino and Dof reality platform, how do you mount the Rhino base to the platform?

 

Did you have to buy any other accessories for it?

 

I purchased the Monstertech mount with the Rhino, it works well on the DoFR 3 center rail IF you drill a couple of new holes into the mount. 

 

Regarding the DoF accessories:

 

I purchased the following that worked for my P3 setup:

 

-Hotas mounts

-Buttkicker mounts

-Quick pedal release

-Emergency stop button

-Soft cover

 

I purchased the following that did not work for me or were unnecessary for me:

 

-Metal Cover (rattled too much with the Buttkickers)

-Keyboard holder (I thought it was too flimsy for the motion, I ended up using an Ipad holder with velcro).

-Cable extensions (didn't need them, but it was close and they are worth getting if you have a doubt because of shipping costs)

 

 

[Panzerlang]

My plan, before DOF Reality destroyed my order, was to bolt a wooden panel to the metal frame (a floorboard effectively) and then bolt the FFB base to that.

[Youtch]

On 11/29/2024 at 3:11 AM, Panzerlang said:

My plan, before DOF Reality destroyed my order, was to bolt a wooden panel to the metal frame (a floorboard effectively) and then bolt the FFB base to that.

What was the problem with your order.

[Panzerlang]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

What was the problem with your order.

Their order system crashed right as I made my order, then their Indian call-center support dept sent me a bunch of very weird emails, leading me to think the DOF site was either spoofed, hacked or they'd gone bust and were doing a runner. Lol. 36 hours later the real guys in the EU re-established comms and in the middle of being incredibly dismissive sent me a very rude and offensive email. Got past that, discussing shipment and then a final rude email to say management had decided to cancel the order and refund my $9000.

[Youtch]

If any of you would have pictures on how you manage to secure the Rhino to DOF Reality platform, I would really appreciate.

 

I am strugging to understand where it will fit especially with the other elements that need to be secured to the main frame bar, especially as it needs to sit very low given the height of the Rhino base.

 

Many thanks in advance,

y.

[Panzerlang]

7 minutes ago, Youtch said:

If any of you would have pictures on how you manage to secure the Rhino to DOF Reality platform, I would really appreciate.

 

I am strugging to understand where it will fit especially with the other elements that need to be secured to the main frame bar, especially as it needs to sit very low given the height of the Rhino base.

 

Many thanks in advance,

y.

I was going to bolt a wooden floor to mine, it looks like the rails would be ideal (at least on their latest versions).

NB: I didn't get one in the end, the order went sideways.

Edited December 10, 2024 by Panzerlang

[Youtch]

12 minutes ago, Panzerlang said:

it looks like the rails would be ideal

Which rails?

[Panzerlang]

Just now, Youtch said:

Which rails?

To each side of the central main bar.

[Varibraun]

3 hours ago, Youtch said:

If any of you would have pictures on how you manage to secure the Rhino to DOF Reality platform, I would really appreciate.

 

I am strugging to understand where it will fit especially with the other elements that need to be secured to the main frame bar, especially as it needs to sit very low given the height of the Rhino base.

 

Many thanks in advance,

y.

 

Hi Youtch - I will get some photos posted for you so that you can see the mounting.  Because of the "Rhino height problem" with the DoFR, IMHO you want the thinnest mount possible.  Somewhat in line with @Panzerlang's idea of creating a "floor" I ordered a 1" thick "plastic marine board" which I had previously used with good result for mounting my TPR rudder pedals, but on receipt I felt that even that extra 1" provided more height than really I wanted for the joystick. 

 

So, I went back to the steel VPforce "Monstertech" plate (see below from VPForce order site) that I ordered with the Rhino.  It only required drilling 2 new holes to align with the DoFR center rail and a small piece of rubber underneath the front and it is a good mounting solution for a cutout seat (with pulley protectors to prevent rubbing the seat), no extension, and reversed Rhino base.  I will try to get some mounting photos posted over the next couple of days.