Regarding the AI issues - a request for help

[LukeFF]

22 hours ago, Dr1falcon500 said:

Planes starting stacked behind each other is the in career and quick missions. Planes overheating on take off also has nothing to do with PWCG. EIII inability to use blip switch nothing to do with PWCG. AI inability to recognize a plane in front of them nothing to do with PWCG. So "nope sorry" doesn't cut it fella. You and IC take responsibility for a change. As the first month of Career Mode has been removed there is only one unit flying the Fokker EIII exclusively I think, Jasta 8. Just have too what happens in career.

 

You need to cut it with the attitude if you want to get anywhere with this. If you want the team to look at this problem, post a mission from stock career mode. They aren't going to look at a mission from PWCG.

[Dusty926]

In general, I wish the AI was more aggressive in maneuvers and decisions. There was a period in the sim where the AI was more intense, leading to a few mess ups (Flat spins, blacking out into the ground), but that felt more dynamic and interesting to me.

If I could beg for anything in terms of AI changes, it would be a mindset change: Please be more willing to let the AI be more aggressive even if it leads to mistakes in flight. I understand the worry about making the AI overfly their aircraft but that is, to me, more immersive than them staying within limits and never screwing up - Even while their plane is raked with bullets.

I also want to reiterate that the Flying Circus AI has a very unique and damaging behavior which I described before. That being, their behavior of swiveling left and right as soon as they have a firing solution. Ironically, they are more effective in deflection shots now, because they arc left and right massively when following behind opponents or getting firing solutions. It's as if they're trying to evade gunner fire, except this behavior is active against any enemy plane, and they start doing it from quite a long distance away too.

This single behavior massively handicaps the AI in FC - It creates a situation where it is safer to fly in a straight line, because it takes advantage of that swiveling behavior.

Please tag me if any examples (video, track or mission) are desired, because I really can't emphasize enough how important I think this behavior is in the FC AI's lack of threat.

[LukeFF]

16 hours ago, Dusty926 said:

Please tag me if any examples (video, track or mission) are desired, because I really can't emphasize enough how important I think this behavior is in the FC AI's lack of threat.

 

Yes, if you have any track files especially, please post them here so they can be investigated by the team.

[Dusty926]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, if you have any track files especially, please post them here so they can be investigated by the team.

These are very short and quick examples, but these illustrate some of the issue. Hopefully these are workable - You'll notice that the most effective shots on me are deflection ones - Enemies following behind almost always fall into the wobble pattern.

Wobble Tracks Short.zip

[cmbishop]

I agree with Dusty926.
The greatest problem with the AI remains the behaviour of swiveling left and right instead of following its opponent.
I think that solving this problem will make the AI tougher.

Edited May 11 by cmbishop

[Dusty926]

On 5/10/2025 at 8:42 AM, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, if you have any track files especially, please post them here so they can be investigated by the team.

Two asterisks I forgot to mention before:

This behavior seems consistent regardless of AI skill level - Those tracks are all vs. Ace level AI but I have not found this to be significantly different with other skill levels.

Additionally, this behavior isn't only active while following - At close range, some deflection angles or rate fights can activate this behavior, and cause planes to swivel mid-firing, missing what they have just lined up.

I wish I had more track files to illustrate those two asterisks more specifically, but hopefully the ones I already provided are of some help - I'm quite busy with work lately but if more are desired, let me know and I will make time to record more.

[LukeFF]

Thanks, it's been passed along to the team for review. 🙂

[Dusty926]

Drive Link because it's too big for the forum:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CnwztfULVd_W8vTfBY3W-6KioKrovYZY/view?usp=drive_link

Recording is 3 minutes and some change, a small skirmish that ends prematurely. All AI are Ace skill level. At a higher altitude since I intend to test how the AI behave at high vs. low altitude.

Many instances of the wobble problem, both in swaying behind the enemy as well as major pitch/lack of pitch motions when tracking target. AI also has a tendency to occasionally maneuver much more strongly, but more in navigation than combat ironically. I saw a plane in a previous mission turn very sharply upon heading home, but be far more gentle in combat maneuvers.

Most notable moment in this recording is at 2:23, when a Halberstadt targets me, and instead of turning to stay on my tail, chooses to continue forward as if it's doing an energy fighting hit and run - But then, pulls up in a major pitching motion to try and follow, which then develops into the side-to-side sway that I've discussed before. 
Other significant moments include:
1:35 - Albatross takes deflection shot on me, which itself is not the issue. But it doesn't commit as hard as it should despite being Ace AI, and wastes most of its ammo holding down the trigger once I'm already above its firing line. Ideally should either maneuver to keep target in sights more aggressively (at risk of stalling), or cease fire earlier.
0:10 - Follow the lead Sopwith Pup (with the streamer) instead of me - Pitches to target an Albatross, initially promising but some of the wobble behavior shows itself and causes it to break early and gain altitude. Not an inherent problem for energy fighters, but noticeable here. Then it shadows the Albatross, before rolling aggressively and going for another shot - There are brief glimpses of much more aggressive and committed surface movement, especially in the rudder during this attempt - However it ultimately mostly misses because of the wobble logic showing itself again. The plane, like many other AI aircraft, is happy to do the occasional aggressive rudder or roll, but does this, "roll then level, roll then level" motion that prevents them from taking advantage of their turn rate.

In general, the WW2 AI has something which the FC seems to struggle with - Commitment to maneuvers. In WW2 GB, when I am followed by an enemy, they will put in some serious Gs to follow me. Getting away is sometimes a different story, but still, the FC AI by contrast seems sheepish of flat, high-G turns, as if it's overly concerned about keeping altitude or not risking any stalls.
 

[Dr1falcon500]

On 5/12/2025 at 2:20 AM, cmbishop said:

I agree with Dusty926.
The greatest problem with the AI remains the behaviour of swiveling left and right instead of following its opponent.
I think that solving this problem will make the AI tougher.

The greatest problem seem to me that AI fly with a complete lack of common sense in general. Either attacking or being attacked does the AI behave as a real pilot would? From flying many career and PWCG missions the answer is no. If a plane's fired upon their evasive tactics are poor sometime even just flying straight. If an enemy get on your tail its easy to evade or even almost ignore it the chances of it scoring significant hits are minimal. On missions AI don't climb well or ignore flight plan, even if the flight plan calls for 2,000m, AI is quite content to doddle along at 1,500m or less. I tried a QM with 4 N17's v 4 Halbestadt DII's all ace AI. My N17 was controlled by AI. It flew vey poorly often nearly stalling. It fired a long burst at the start after that it only fired if an enemy plane flew in front of the sights. No attempt to turn after enemies. At the end my undamaged  N17 stalled twice then speared into the ground. That's the standard that the AI is at.

[Dr1falcon500]

This is a fairly typical career mission, balloon busting. I shot down 7 Nieuport 17's fairly easily. The flight commander shot down a plane and balloon but failed to return. The flight didn't climb much from the start of the mission. As here flights will hang around target area a long time after the mission is complete and signal to RTB is given. Zip with track and mission files.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/i2crupr2gaeg4ii/Tracks+Jasta+11+1917.zip/file

Edited May 15 by Dr1falcon500

[LukeFF]

On 5/14/2025 at 7:55 PM, Dusty926 said:

Drive Link because it's too big for the forum:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CnwztfULVd_W8vTfBY3W-6KioKrovYZY/view?usp=drive_link

Recording is 3 minutes and some change, a small skirmish that ends prematurely. All AI are Ace skill level. At a higher altitude since I intend to test how the AI behave at high vs. low altitude.

Many instances of the wobble problem, both in swaying behind the enemy as well as major pitch/lack of pitch motions when tracking target. AI also has a tendency to occasionally maneuver much more strongly, but more in navigation than combat ironically. I saw a plane in a previous mission turn very sharply upon heading home, but be far more gentle in combat maneuvers.

Most notable moment in this recording is at 2:23, when a Halberstadt targets me, and instead of turning to stay on my tail, chooses to continue forward as if it's doing an energy fighting hit and run - But then, pulls up in a major pitching motion to try and follow, which then develops into the side-to-side sway that I've discussed before. 
Other significant moments include:
1:35 - Albatross takes deflection shot on me, which itself is not the issue. But it doesn't commit as hard as it should despite being Ace AI, and wastes most of its ammo holding down the trigger once I'm already above its firing line. Ideally should either maneuver to keep target in sights more aggressively (at risk of stalling), or cease fire earlier.
0:10 - Follow the lead Sopwith Pup (with the streamer) instead of me - Pitches to target an Albatross, initially promising but some of the wobble behavior shows itself and causes it to break early and gain altitude. Not an inherent problem for energy fighters, but noticeable here. Then it shadows the Albatross, before rolling aggressively and going for another shot - There are brief glimpses of much more aggressive and committed surface movement, especially in the rudder during this attempt - However it ultimately mostly misses because of the wobble logic showing itself again. The plane, like many other AI aircraft, is happy to do the occasional aggressive rudder or roll, but does this, "roll then level, roll then level" motion that prevents them from taking advantage of their turn rate.

In general, the WW2 AI has something which the FC seems to struggle with - Commitment to maneuvers. In WW2 GB, when I am followed by an enemy, they will put in some serious Gs to follow me. Getting away is sometimes a different story, but still, the FC AI by contrast seems sheepish of flat, high-G turns, as if it's overly concerned about keeping altitude or not risking any stalls.
 

 

Hi, can you check the file access? Our mission designer looking at this cannot download it. Thanks!

 

@Dr1falcon500, per our mission designer who looked at your files:

"Wp_in (point 2) and WP_action (point 3) have an altitude of 1500 m and medium priority. This means that the group will maintain an altitude of 1500 m and will not attack enemy aircraft. Only defensive, if they are attacked. The group should not climb to 2000m with this logic. The wingmen can only gain altitude behind the leader. In the attached replays, the player is wingman, not lead, so the other planes don't climb behind him. In this mission (balloon attack) mission objective is accomplished when the balloon is shot down. After that WP_out (point 4) becomes active. WP_out has a low priority. This means that the planes will attack any enemy aircraft in the line of sight. That's why the planes are fighting, not flying to point 4."

[Dusty926]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Hi, can you check the file access? Our mission designer looking at this cannot download it. Thanks!

 

Sorry about that - It should be accessible now! Please tag me again if it's still troublesome.

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Dusty926 said:

Sorry about that - It should be accessible now! Please tag me again if it's still troublesome.

 

Our mission editor says: "Only .trk in the archive. Also need a mission folder." 

[Dr1falcon500]

7 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Hi, can you check the file access? Our mission designer looking at this cannot download it. Thanks!

 

@Dr1falcon500, per our mission designer who looked at your files:

"Wp_in (point 2) and WP_action (point 3) have an altitude of 1500 m and medium priority. This means that the group will maintain an altitude of 1500 m and will not attack enemy aircraft. Only defensive, if they are attacked. The group should not climb to 2000m with this logic. The wingmen can only gain altitude behind the leader. In the attached replays, the player is wingman, not lead, so the other planes don't climb behind him. In this mission (balloon attack) mission objective is accomplished when the balloon is shot down. After that WP_out (point 4) becomes active. WP_out has a low priority. This means that the planes will attack any enemy aircraft in the line of sight. That's why the planes are fighting, not flying to point 4."

Thanks for that explanation. Tactically for me its better to confront enemy fighters having an altitude advantage or at least parity. Having to climb toward enemy planes 3 or 4 hundred metres above isn't great.

Edited May 16 by Dr1falcon500

[Dusty926]

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Our mission editor says: "Only .trk in the archive. Also need a mission folder." 

My bad, I didn't realize mission folders were required!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XIxp5IB6A2PAd0VxhF5bTYFe-mBA1lz4/view?usp=sharing

Hopefully this should have both the trk and the mission folder as desired.

Additionally, if you recall my report earlier with the forum-based .zip file, this is the version with those tracks and their relevant mission folders now too
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IoeBbELodXm9KTqpOn3cQAe5WIj7ScAb/view?usp=sharing

[Dusty926]

Me in Halberstadt, vs. Ace Sopwith Pup. 2500m vs. 500m

Anecdotally, the maneuvers from the Pup seemed notably more aggressive at lower altitudes - This is in spite of the fact that it should still be plenty maneuverable at that higher altitude. 
However, behaviors are familiar - Wobble behind me when following straight, decent deflection shots, and general indecision. It makes the choice to disengage and climb away at higher altitude, which is great - However I know from experience that they don't commit to this action when more than one opponent is active. 
You can also see this in the 500m track, where it pulls a similar maneuver, but instead of either disengaging, or continuing to loop back onto my tail, it disengages but enters a lazy turn to stay close to me, and gives me plenty of space to turn.

To reiterate a previous point - I would like to see the AI commit to certain actions more strongly, at least in the heat of combat. Whether that is to disengage and create altitude and distance, or to stay on a tail and lock down on an opponent.

Drive link with tracks and mission folders:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ynsgEvHqkve2HxiMRV6KuooEfYxRnep7/view?usp=sharing

[Dusty926]

Vs. D.III at 2500m vs. 500m, Ace AI

Similar story - Slightly more aggressive at lower altitudes, but still wobbles to a very intense degree. Also tends to throttle down somewhere during the wobble as well. 
Interestingly, after entering the wobble, it seemed to do it a lot further away in the 2500m track. You'll note that it at one point starts wobbling a good 600 or 700 meters out.

It shows moments of deflection in control surfaces that are appropriately aggressive, like the Pup previously, but it only ever does these in very small, minor jerks instead of any major maneuvers.

 

Accompanying Drive link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12ba9oM5GixukhOgPQEK6E0wSnlrGIkLV/view?usp=sharing

[LukeFF]

ICYMI there are some FC AI updates in today's update. 

[Dusty926]

The changes listed directly have had positive effects in what they were focused on, but the core of how the AI fights, flies and makes decisions still has some notable flaws.

There is still the massive rolling issue when it comes to FC AI attempting to follow targets from behind, or pull targeting solutions at close range.

And there is the more fundamental issue (as in, I've noticed this with WW2 planes as well) of the AI having a FAR more limited range of evasiveness when someone is close on their tail. It seems to vary from plane to plane, situation to situation, but as a general rule of thumb, I find that they become idle, lazy and lacking all their evasive options once you close in to around 200m behind their tail. 

Because of this, the tracks and missions that I sent before still apply - Although I will attempt to create more examples in the coming days.

I will say that modifying some files available to me have made certain planes get further away from this behavior, but I'm still in the process of deciphering the true effects of many of the values so I can't say for certain what in there has had positive effects in regards to this wobble problem (both leading and evading.)
If there is any breakdown of values like, "TurnRate", "RefClimb, RefDive, and their relevant Factor values", and "RefNoseAngle" available, I would really like to know. But I imagine the engineers are quite busy, so I will continue my tuning and editing, and I'll try to provide new tracks and missions when I get better examples of the core problems.

Never-the-less, the changes made this patch are very welcome, as the Sopwith Dolphin and N17 both have had their aileron wobble basically completely eliminated, at least in my preliminary testing.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Haven't seen an AI crash landing from one of the Gotha G.V.s in a long time. Thanks for that 🙏🏻🙏🏻

[Rick_Rawlings]

This was a depressing flight.

 

Track Link:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZM1mQruobeglYOe7MsiRg5-ls5VBvTip?usp=drive_link

 

Related video:

 

This was an un-modded FC career mission.

The second set of Albatroses had one good diving attack. Otherwise, everything else failed to impress on even the most basic level. 

1. My rear gunner opened fire way too early on aircraft he had no chance of hitting (unless he was an enemy gunner shooting at me!) This continued throughout the fight where he would fire when wildly inappropriate and hold his fire with stable, close in, low angle shots. 

2. My wingmen did nothing. It was six Brisfits against three Albatroses. We should have either shredded them or driven them off. The general milling about of AI aircraft without the seeming interest of killing or driving off their foes is a frequent observance in FC missions. 

3. As can be seen in the video, at several points Albatros scouts approached me from the forward position and then turned before reaching me which had the effect of putting me on their tail without any real effort on my part. This can be seen in numerous videos that I have posted over the years.

4. At the end, the two remaining Albatros scouts effectively fall in to formation with my flight without firing. It is possible they ran out of ammo, but at that point, they should have headed for home instead. 

 

The planes are great, the flight mechanics are solid, the setting is serviceable: the AI is terrible. I would love to buy more modules but at this point I can't justify the expenditure on something I am having less and less interest in playing. 

 

 

 

 

[Trooper117]

10 hours ago, Rick_Rawlings said:

The planes are great, the flight mechanics are solid, the setting is serviceable: the AI is terrible. I would love to buy more modules but at this point I can't justify the expenditure on something I am having less and less interest in playing. 

 

That's how I feel... I doubt anything will be done about the AI, it's been the main gripe I've had about this game for years.

They are pressing on with their new venture and that is completely understandable... FC is probably now very low on their priority.

[LukeFF]

Guys, we are always looking for ways to improve the AI, but as we are still lacking a dedicated person on the team to work on this aspect, progress is going to be slower than we wish it could be. 

[Rick_Rawlings]

 

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Guys, we are always looking for ways to improve the AI, but as we are still lacking a dedicated person on the team to work on this aspect, progress is going to be slower than we wish it could be. 

Understood, and this unfortunately always seems to be the case where companies release plane sets as the main revenue stream. AI and campaigns and, well, all the things that make a great game and not just a collection of flyable planes get back burnered. Hopefully this will be addressed and hopefully you have a dedicated person working on the Korea AI...thanks for the response, Luke.

[=J18=Manfred_Schultz]

I was thinking and after some time, I figured out an interesting possible solution for the AI problems on the career, it would be to add the option for being able to adjust which AI level you want to have in the career, so that way you could adjust if you want the enemy AI to be Ace level or Novice level or the level you want. As well as the AI level of your flight mates, so that way, it would be more customizable and comfortable for the players.

So what do you guys think about my idea?