Regarding the AI issues - a request for help

[Packham]

100% agree witchy woman and DR1falcon.

Luke FF, Where can I send the race mission files for you to review?

Thanks!!

[Panzerlang]

I've started my RFC career, Nov 1916, flying Bebes (N11). Six of us met six Albs, I got four and they got two of ours. I took a couple of hits in a wing. The huns weren't the most inspirational fighters in this scrabble but they weren't flying like idiots.

[Gunfreak]

12 hours ago, WitchyWoman said:

Gunfreak?

 

Was this flown in Career mode? The problem is the career mode is the area of the game that is most effected by broken AI. The QMB is not the issue really.

They both work like night and day in terms of AI ability.

 

My biggest beef  (in career mode) is they never try to get on your tail and most of the time they do not engage you or your flight in any aggressive fashion and it seems o me in your video that you were on the AI's tail in the offensive all of the time which is also something I encounter (way too easy). The AI never seems to maneuver for the advantage and they rarely ever shoot at you unless its a rear gunner shooting at you or they briefly fly by you head on and let off a short burst. The fighter cover for AI bombers also seem to just stagger around and fly way behind the flight they are supposed to be escorting and almost always ignore attackers which makes taking them out very easy. Another problem is friendly AI flights do not seem to engage as they should either so I am often the only one in my flight doing the attacking.The career AI, IMHO, is badly bugged.

 

I ask that everyone fly some careers and you will see the problem and drastic differences and if you do. Record a trk and send them to the Dev team so we can get this fixed.  I and stonehouse recorded some tracks and he sent them off which document these problems.

 

Really loved the video you captured though. Amazing cinema captures!?

 

 

 

Thank you.

My first video on page 1 was career. My second was quick mission.

I agree with you that the AI is most lacking in career mode. I have no fear of the enemy in career mode. I'm much more worried about breaking my engine or getting into a stall i can't get out of instead the enemy, which is only there for target practice.

[WitchyWoman]

Hetzer,

 

You have said you fly PW with no issues. PW is not the stock game and not what we are trying to get fixed. PW is a mod and not related to the games problems. I run a current I7 with 64gb of gskill ripjaws and an nvidia evga 3070 video card so Its not my pc.  I notice that most people in this thread that have no problem say that they are using QMB and PW which pretty much shows why they are not experiencing the biggest problems. The problem lays in the built in stock career mode which is bugged/broken as I have said countless times before.

[Avimimus]

PWCG does use the in-game AI... so if people are having a better experience with it, then the issue might be with the campaign mode / mission generation, rather than the AI itself. So it is relevant.

 

That said, I think there is plenty of reason to suspect the AI itself needs work. My own experience with the QMB seem to support this (see the tracks I uploaded earlier in the thread).

 

Some observations:

 

1) The AI itself is probably more aggressive than pilots were in real life (see the number of aircraft being shot down per engagement in the initial videos shown by the devs).

 

2) A good player can easily shoot down enemy AI aircraft. My assertion is that this is mainly due to better energy management by the player (rather than a lack of aggression by the AI). In this case the AI might actually be too aggressive (i.e. wasting energy).

 

Honestly, we need more evidence (i.e. please post tracks and videos). We then need to actually analyse the evidence (i.e. what is happening in the tracks/videos).

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, Packham said:

100% agree witchy woman and DR1falcon.

Luke FF, Where can I send the race mission files for you to review?

Thanks!!

 

You can compress them as a zip file and post them here in a message as a file attachment.

[LukeFF]

15 hours ago, WitchyWoman said:

What Dr1falcon said 100%

 

I dunno why QMB is used to prove fixes, Luke, fly some career missions a few times and you will see. Cant your team spend 10-30 minutes doing so as a test?

 

QMB AI fly completely different than the career, and again you should be trying it out yourself. You have the time, and you'll see all my complaints and others are very valid. The fact that you seem to only test things in QMB and won't even try career makes me wonder whats really going on here.

I have tested QMB and the AI are far more capable and have a better brain than the career which basically lacks every ounce of a brain.

It is bugged and/or broken, that's a fact. I can spend 10 minutes in the QMB and have 3 fighters dog fighting me with skill but in Careers that goes missing. Maybe there is something in career mode or mission generation that causes this but its there and has been there a long time in Flying Circus. Your better off looking through your code and trying to see what breaks the AI and makes them totally cowardly, unresponsive, and not aggressive.

 

We have sent tracks proving this. But you do not tell us if those tracks have been evaluated or give us any insight into what may be fixed after going over our tracks. It makes me think you actually hate the career mode which makes total sense as you seem to avoid the complaints and stick to the QMB, demand trks ,and seem to not want to even try flying career mode for yourself. Why are you so against this mode of play and totally ignore testing it. Why is it even in the game then?

 

I do not fly any other way. I have always enjoyed flight sim campaigns/stories and the RPG aspect of it. Its a top priority "feature"  in any sim I buy.  Its why I finally bought FC when it got put into the sim. But with it broken like it is as opposed to the WW2 side of the game which I love and is fine. FC bores me and makes me miserable. If it was fixed I would be happy, and I am sure others would be happy to.

 

You really need to dial it down a bit. First, I am the community manager here, not a paid QA & testing team member. I monitor the IL2 social sites for about 4 hours a day, Monday through Friday, in addition to my other, unrelated job which is another eight hours a day. That is in addition to the work I do for the team in writing the weekly historical posts and spending about 3-plus hours per week writing documentation for the upcoming title. Then there's the time I put into beta testing, which has been quite frequent as of late.

 

Then there's the time I want to spend with my wife and 5-year-old son, so they don't think their spouse and father is a man who only spends his time in front of a computer all evening after coming home. So no, I don't always "have the time".

With that out of the way, some other things: the team does try things out, but as you might have noticed, the game is quite expansive at this point, and so not everything always receives the rigorous testing it sometimes needs. 

 

Moving on...

 

Quote

But you do not tell us if those tracks have been evaluated or give us any insight into what may be fixed after going over our tracks.

The team has plainly shown in just the past week that they do evaluate these files and communicate what has been fixed. I'm sorry, but no one on the team is going to give a line-by-line reply to every single source file that is sent in for evaluation. 

 

Quote

It makes me think you actually hate the career mode which makes total sense as you seem to avoid the complaints and stick to the QMB, demand trks ,and seem to not want to even try flying career mode for yourself.

 

Since the days of ROF, I have put probably several hundred hours into improving the experience of career mode in every way I have found possible. As for the rest of the team, I can't speak for them, but I highly doubt they would put the effort they have into the career that they have if they "hate" it as you insinuate they do. 

 

Bottom line, the team does see and read the reports posted here and internally, and issues are fixed as they find a way to repeat them and then fix them. And regarding the AI, that is planned to be continued for some amount of time going forward. 

[Avimimus]

4 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

With that out of the way, some other things: the team does try things out, but as you might have noticed, the game is quite expansive at this point, and so not everything always receives the rigorous testing it sometimes needs. 

 

I thought I'd add to this, a basic observation: The code represents multiple dynamic systems... this means that the potential interactions (and outcomes) are multiple and highly non-linear... which means it is essentially impossible to fully test all possibilities. This is especially true of AI (given that it represents interactions of multiple dynamic systems). As the dynamic complexity of code increase the time to debug it increases exponentially.

 

This is an inevitable reality, and it should be surprising to all of us that any sim runs as well as it does...the fact that it works so well is a real testament to human ingenuity and dedication.

 

P.S. Over ten years ago this game engine had over 1.5 million lines of code: Rise of Flight’s Third Anniversary | SimHQ I have no idea what it has reached now.

[WitchyWoman]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

You really need to dial it down a bit. First, I am the community manager here, not a paid QA & testing team member. I monitor the IL2 social sites for about 4 hours a day, Monday through Friday, in addition to my other, unrelated job which is another eight hours a day. That is in addition to the work I do for the team in writing the weekly historical posts and spending about 3-plus hours per week writing documentation for the upcoming title. Then there's the time I put into beta testing, which has been quite frequent as of late.

 

Then there's the time I want to spend with my wife and 5-year-old son, so they don't think their spouse and father is a man who only spends his time in front of a computer all evening after coming home. So no, I don't always "have the time".

With that out of the way, some other things: the team does try things out, but as you might have noticed, the game is quite expansive at this point, and so not everything always receives the rigorous testing it sometimes needs. 

 

Moving on...

 

The team has plainly shown in just the past week that they do evaluate these files and communicate what has been fixed. I'm sorry, but no one on the team is going to give a line-by-line reply to every single source file that is sent in for evaluation. 

 

 

Since the days of ROF, I have put probably several hundred hours into improving the experience of career mode in every way I have found possible. As for the rest of the team, I can't speak for them, but I highly doubt they would put the effort they have into the career that they have if they "hate" it as you insinuate they do. 

 

Bottom line, the team does see and read the reports posted here and internally, and issues are fixed as they find a way to repeat them and then fix them. And regarding the AI, that is planned to be continued for some amount of time going forward. 

I am glad you clarified things. I myself have raised 2 boys that are in their teens now so I understand being a parent and having less time as the earlier years were far more consuming for me. I get frustrated due to this problem having been around several years. As far as "dialing it down" I am a very passionate person when  I feel strongly about something. Chalk it up to military experience and too many fiery political debates over the years with some very nasty people that you always had to be on the offense with which totally does not pertain to gaming.?

 

So I am sorry for coming off in that tone. I simply want to enjoy the WW1 side of the current sim a lot more than I am. I hope you succeed on improving this aspect of the game while still making enough time for "real life" and maintaining good health through it all.

 

 

Witchy

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[Justicier]

Thus far I have only done testing in QMB, so, grain of salt. I have done several 1v1 fights, all in an Albatross vs. an Ace Camel. Some fights with both of us having a full tank of fuel, some half, some running on fumes to see if there was a major change in the AI's ability. I could tell no difference regardless of fuel levels. On the initial merge I would almost always take a fair amount of fire, with several holes being put in my plane. After the merge however, the AI just didn't push the Camel hard enough. I had no difficulty getting on their six, even in an aircraft as modest as the Albatross. If I were in a Dr.1 there would have been no challenge at all even against multiple Camels. And this is in QMB, which seemingly has better AI routines than in career mode.

 

Some have stated that they think energy management is the culprit, and it may be a factor indeed, but from my observations it didn't appear that they were pushing their aircraft hard enough to even begin experiencing an energy issue. They always seemed to have plenty of energy in reserve with full control authority, and only made generally lazy turns... much like Han Solo's "I know a few maneuvers, we'll lose them" against a couple pursuing Star Destroyers in A New Hope.

 

To be honest, If the AI in QMB isn't challenging, I don't see much point in investing any time in career mode. I'm not a terribly good combat pilot, it shouldn't be this easy. I really want to see the sim excel in all areas but unfortunately this is one that needs a lot more work it seems. I will try to record/upload as many tracks as I can if I have the opportunity to.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Justicier

[Panzerlang]

I watched that guy doing mock dogfights in replica WW1 planes and they flew less adventurously than the AI in this game. I suspect because they were frit of their wings coming off. We have no videos of the real guys fighting in WW1, though the guys in Howard Hugh's ancient movie seemed to jolly well give it some.

I suspect most pilots in WW1 were quite conservative in their manoeuvres because they were bricking it, at least until they had some experience. But, for sure, I've not ever seen the AI fly a Dr1 like I do but they are still sometimes a bit of a challenge to stick to. Definitely there are no AI Voss.

I think Hans summed it up quite legitimately when he said "we fly too good". Even you guys who think you're not that good, I'd suggest you're better than the vast majority of the real guys, most of who died before they had a chance to 'git gud'.

In my ponderings on how I'd make an FCS, I thought it might be a good idea (for SP) to hobble a player's plane as appropriate to the number of hours flown in a career. Maybe then the AI would have a 'realistic' chance?

[giftgruen]

15 hours ago, LukeFF said:

First, I am the community manager here, not a paid QA & testing team member.

....
With that out of the way, some other things: the team does try things out, but as you might have noticed, the game is quite expansive at this point, and so not everything always receives the rigorous testing it sometimes needs. 

 

 

Luke - for sure we all know that YOU cannot solve these AI topics alone. Also, testing a complex software in all aspects is not possible.

I am a software engineer and team leader myself ( in another software area, not gaming ) - I know these kind of problems.

 

However ... these AI problems are a major and critical aspect of IL2 FC.

 

In my world something behaving like AI in FC career mode would clearly be classified as a prio A bug ( which means: 'disturbing productional use' in my business software environment ) and in gaming software means 'disturbing having fun with the game'.

 

So in the end someone from the team - probably not you - should indeed take the time, play a career, recording all the fights and analyze.

The problems are so obvious and clear and occur in EACH career and/or mission type that it should not be a problem to "find the bug" ( which is sometimes difficult in software development, recreating a bug ). But in this case we discuss at the moment - just a day of playing / testing career will give plenty of examples of bad AI behaviour.

 

It's also NOT true at all that we are all brilliant pilots and therefore no AI will ever have a chance at all.

This sounds - sorry - like a lazy excuse to not handle the AI problems. 

 

However, I at least highly appreciate that our complaints seem to be heard and someone cares for it.

 

 

Generally the AI (imho) has the main problem that it almost completely lacks 'situational awareness'.

- is there a threat ?

- how do I react - how can I survive ?

- priorization of surviving, mission target, free attacking

 

A typical exampe for this is, that enemy fighter strictly follow their mission target ( e.g. attacking bombers )

even if you are at their six. You can simply stay at 6 - shoot em down without they even TRY to avoid / escape.

Hey. Surviving should be more important than a mission target.  It's such an easy and basic thing.

Another simple example: The AI has no concept of "it's better to give up and runaway" so usually keeps fighting

to the end even if outnumbered 1:4 and having the faster plane.

 

This is the more 'tactical' aspect of KI which is really really bad solved at the moment.

And in my opinion these misbehaviour is even more disturbng than the "technical" dogfighting aspects themselves.

( btw - these tactcal aspects of bad AI also show up in the WW2 portion of the sim )

 

As soon as the AI decides to dogfight you, there are other type of AI errors.

- AI in defence does not vary manoevers but repeats the same type of defence manoever

- AI has no concept of "run away" or "climb away" more than some seconds

- Ai has no idea of planeset ( taking advantage of own plane ability )  

- AI does not pull the plane to limits at all ( In fighters. Strangely, TwoSeaters seem to be better in this in my opinion)

 

Regarding shooting:

- AI is maybe even too good in high angle shooting ( so the only dangerous aspect of the AI is the begin of an encounter ) 

- AI is not able to stay on 6 to get easy shots ( even if you fly straight, AI often stays curving )

 

regards B

Edited December 30, 2023 by giftgruen

[slipper]

I know that in Il-2 1946 there were several AI manoeuvres, say a,b,c........x

 

The AI would then carry out one or more of these manoeuvres based on the perceived threat. I actually did a bit of Java coding for a mod and successfully included some AI manoeuvres to occur randomly based on certain triggers.

 

Not having access to the code in GB, I'm not sure how the AI handles manoeuvres, but would have thought it was something similar to 1946.

 

 

for example, you could have a novice AI have a limited number of basic manoeuvres with a probability attached to each and maybe a small probability of carrying out something more extreme. While an ace AI may have a larger number of manoeuvres to choose from, with a probability of executing one or more in succession. some examples may include a novice AI baling out with very little damage, breaking off and heading home, heading for cloud cover etc. The randomness applied to manoeuvres would at least give some variety to engagements

 

[Avimimus]

4 hours ago, slipper said:

The AI would then carry out one or more of these manoeuvres based on the perceived threat. I actually did a bit of Java coding for a mod and successfully included some AI manoeuvres to occur randomly based on certain triggers.

 

Very interesting! I had tried to mod the AI at one point... I wanted to increase the likelihood of the AI deciding to disengage (i.e. simulate morale) through either have a random check every time the AI used up a certain amount of ammunition or use the 'call for help' check (which could tell if there were allied aircraft nearby) to see if it was getting isolated from allies. One of the major issues in Il-2 (and subsequent sims, including Flying Circus) is that the AI tends to be too aggressive and never flee. This makes combat deviate a lot from actual historical accounts, where pilots would get confused, disoriented, separated, or just feel vulnerable and would retreat to regroup or return to base.

 

I always thought having 'realistic morale' as a realism option would be rather nice.

[Rothary]

8 hours ago, giftgruen said:

Generally the AI (imho) has the main problem that it almost completely lacks 'situational awareness'.

- is there a threat ?

- how do I react - how can I survive ?

- priorization of surviving, mission target, free attacking

 

A typical exampe for this is, that enemy fighter strictly follow their mission target ( e.g. attacking bombers )

even if you are at their six.

 

8 hours ago, giftgruen said:

- AI is not able to stay on 6 to get easy shots ( even if you fly straight, AI often stays curving )

 

Examples of exactly these can be found in my post on page 1; enemies on a mission to attack our balloon proceed to act as if we (balloon defenders) literally don't even exist, allowing me to just fly on their 6 unopposed and take as careful of a shot as I want from as close as I want completely unopposed – no actual dogfight even takes place with these enemies. Then at the last kill of which I posted a video as well, one can see how the closest friendly AI chasing the completely apathetic Albatros keeps flying all over the place, as if trying to make evasive maneuvers to avoid a nonexistent tail gunner, all while chasing a single seater target flying dead straight. It does seem a bit silly that its the one chasing who resorts to evasive maneuvers and not the one being chased.

 

This type of completely irrational (as opposed to merely incompetent) AI behaviour is the norm in career mode and makes it borderline unplayable at times – it often just feels too broken to be enjoyable at the moment.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Rothary

[Gunfreak]

Broken AI.

First mission in a new Career, everything set to random.

My flight flies their route, I see something on our 3 O'clock, my flight ignores it, but as they are now closer to our 6 I turn to see what they are, and it's a flight of huns, I fly right past them, they ignore me, fly behind them, and starts blasting, hitting one after another, most of the time none of the planes, including those that are getting hit by my bullets, react at all, they seem to have a flight path and can not deviate from it. after shooting down 2 of the planes, and making 3 others fly away the two remaining dive on my flight that has now ended up in a fight. only when enemy enters the fight does the AI "turn on" but only briefly, so they go back to flying straight and I blast another one, the second actually reacts to me and tries to get away, I hit him a few times, but I've wasted so many bullets from bad shooting earlier that I run out before I can finish him. 

If I was even a half decent shot, I would have shot down all 7 of those I encountered. 
 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Gunfreak

[LukeFF]

20 hours ago, WitchyWoman said:

I am glad you clarified things. I myself have raised 2 boys that are in their teens now so I understand being a parent and having less time as the earlier years were far more consuming for me. I get frustrated due to this problem having been around several years. As far as "dialing it down" I am a very passionate person when  I feel strongly about something. Chalk it up to military experience and too many fiery political debates over the years with some very nasty people that you always had to be on the offense with which totally does not pertain to gaming.?

 

So I am sorry for coming off in that tone. I simply want to enjoy the WW1 side of the current sim a lot more than I am. I hope you succeed on improving this aspect of the game while still making enough time for "real life" and maintaining good health through it all.

 

 

Witchy

 

Yes, I lived the military life for many years too, so I have an idea of where you are coming from.

We all want what's best for the game, so hopefully 2024 brings lots of good improvements for FC.

 

8 hours ago, giftgruen said:

 

Luke - for sure we all know that YOU cannot solve these AI topics alone. Also, testing a complex software in all aspects is not possible.

I am a software engineer and team leader myself ( in another software area, not gaming ) - I know these kind of problems.

 

However ... these AI problems are a major and critical aspect of IL2 FC.

 

In my world something behaving like AI in FC career mode would clearly be classified as a prio A bug ( which means: 'disturbing productional use' in my business software environment ) and in gaming software means 'disturbing having fun with the game'.

 

So in the end someone from the team - probably not you - should indeed take the time, play a career, recording all the fights and analyze.

The problems are so obvious and clear and occur in EACH career and/or mission type that it should not be a problem to "find the bug" ( which is sometimes difficult in software development, recreating a bug ). But in this case we discuss at the moment - just a day of playing / testing career will give plenty of examples of bad AI behaviour.

 

It's also NOT true at all that we are all brilliant pilots and therefore no AI will ever have a chance at all.

This sounds - sorry - like a lazy excuse to not handle the AI problems. 

 

However, I at least highly appreciate that our complaints seem to be heard and someone cares for it.

 

 

Generally the AI (imho) has the main problem that it almost completely lacks 'situational awareness'.

- is there a threat ?

- how do I react - how can I survive ?

- priorization of surviving, mission target, free attacking

 

A typical exampe for this is, that enemy fighter strictly follow their mission target ( e.g. attacking bombers )

even if you are at their six. You can simply stay at 6 - shoot em down without they even TRY to avoid / escape.

Hey. Surviving should be more important than a mission target.  It's such an easy and basic thing.

Another simple example: The AI has no concept of "it's better to give up and runaway" so usually keeps fighting

to the end even if outnumbered 1:4 and having the faster plane.

 

This is the more 'tactical' aspect of KI which is really really bad solved at the moment.

And in my opinion these misbehaviour is even more disturbng than the "technical" dogfighting aspects themselves.

( btw - these tactcal aspects of bad AI also show up in the WW2 portion of the sim )

 

As soon as the AI decides to dogfight you, there are other type of AI errors.

- AI in defence does not vary manoevers but repeats the same type of defence manoever

- AI has no concept of "run away" or "climb away" more than some seconds

- Ai has no idea of planeset ( taking advantage of own plane ability )  

- AI does not pull the plane to limits at all ( In fighters. Strangely, TwoSeaters seem to be better in this in my opinion)

 

Regarding shooting:

- AI is maybe even too good in high angle shooting ( so the only dangerous aspect of the AI is the begin of an encounter ) 

- AI is not able to stay on 6 to get easy shots ( even if you fly straight, AI often stays curving )

 

regards B

 

Yes, some of this is down to what priorities the AI is given when designing these missions, and I have a suspicion this is why people are seeing different behavior in QM vs Career mode. However, I did mention this recently to the career mode design lead - specifically how AI pilots will chase you down miles upon miles behind enemy lines, even when damaged - and it's apparently on the to-fix for the next update. For years it was just one guy they had working on these sorts of things, but they have brought in more people recently and slowly but surely things like this are being addressed.

[WitchyWoman]

5 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Broken AI.

First mission in a new Career, everything set to random.

My flight flies their route, I see something on our 3 O'clock, my flight ignores it, but as they are now closer to our 6 I turn to see what they are, and it's a flight of huns, I fly right past them, they ignore me, fly behind them, and starts blasting, hitting one after another, most of the time none of the planes, including those that are getting hit by my bullets, react at all, they seem to have a flight path and can not deviate from it. after shooting down 2 of the planes, and making 3 others fly away the two remaining dive on my flight that has now ended up in a fight. only when enemy enters the fight does the AI "turn on" but only briefly, so they go back to flying straight and I blast another one, the second actually reacts to me and tries to get away, I hit him a few times, but I've wasted so many bullets from bad shooting earlier that I run out before I can finish him. 

If I was even a half decent shot, I would have shot down all 7 of those I encountered. 
 

 

That was an excellent recording of the very frustrating issues I experience in playing careers weekly with AI.

[Dr1falcon500]

This balloon protection mission is typically what happens in career missions. AI planes in my unit don't attack, if you give an "attack nearest air" order all they do is scatter. One AI plane got a victory by accident, after firing a short burst the target Fe2b smashed into a balloon cable. I think this was the only AI that shot at anything. Mostly they just hung back doing nothing. There was no mission complete message to end this mission which is also usual.

 

[LukeFF]

Guys, just a friendly reminder: track and mission files are what the team needs. YT videos are all well and good, but their utility in fixing problems like this is limited.

[Martin077]

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Guys, just a friendly reminder: track and mission files are what the team needs. YT videos are all well and good, but their utility in fixing problems like this is limited.

Can someone help me to understamd?

 

If we give mission files from a misson, is the ai fixed only in this special mission or in general?

isnt this a general thing?

the lack of  agressiveness on hunting the enemy, the will of "wanting a kill" is present overall.

[Tony_Kito]

1 hour ago, Martin077 said:

Can someone help me to understamd?

 

If we give mission files from a misson, is the ai fixed only in this special mission or in general?

isnt this a general thing?

 

If you give them the mission files, they can more easily replicate the problem and figure out which AI subroutine or script is causing the behavior. So it would be a more general fix.

 

Speaking of which, I think any sort of individual difficulties the AI might have are, in my estimation, less dramatic than the issues shown above here - which seem to indicate that something in the mission scripting is overwriting the AI collective behavior and basically giving them task fixation tunnel vision to the detriment of their ability to do anything else. When the AI does fight back, and gets into a big scuffle of, say 8v8, the individual failings of the AI are less exacerbated by the fact that there's so many of them that it becomes a bit harder to just get away with plinking them all with impunity.

One such example of the AI becoming tunnel visioned: first combat mission for my No. 53 squadron 1916 career flying the N17. Flying to bomb some troops at the German side of NML, on the way there my flight is happened upon 6x Halberstadt D.IIs behind us. For some reason my autopilot is the only one in my flight to notice them and attack, which I override. I jump on them from above and... They do not react, simply flying towards my own flight. I could fly right next to them in formation and shoot my sidearm at their heads but they only reacted to avoid crashing into me when I got close. Mission file attached below.

 

Missions.rar

[cmbishop]

I totally agree with Tony_Kito.
I made several flights this afternoon in a French squadron flying the N17 (in career mode).
During a "free flight" mission, I attacked an observation balloon. I was intercepted and the opponent (6 Halb DII) behaved normally: I was attacked more or less skillfully, but I was attacked all the same.
On the next flight, we had to defend a balloon. And then the enemy aircrafts (Alb DIIs) attacked as if they were zombies: they made wide loops before attacking the balloon. In fact, only one aircraft was firing at the balloon. The Albatrosses acted as if we weren't there.
It's clear from these two examples that it's a question of setting the AI for each career mission.
I also flew the scripted campaign "Against the Tide" . On the first mission, we attacked an observation balloon. There, several of my teammates attacked the balloon (there were several of them shooting). So they had a coherent attitude.
I'll try to send you a video of a mission where observation balloons are attacked by AI-controlled aircrafts (mission generated in the career mode).

 

[Dr1falcon500]

On 12/31/2023 at 7:15 PM, LukeFF said:

Guys, just a friendly reminder: track and mission files are what the team needs. YT videos are all well and good, but their utility in fixing problems like this is limited.

Here's four track files from two missions, balloon protection and balloon busting. Hope this works okay and is of some help.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/bn86yrxrldb4i4w/Tracks.7z/file

[cmbishop]

Happy new year !

Here a track taken from my Harold Runt Fe2B campaign. You will see an enemy attack against an observation balloon. My squadron received the task to defend this balloon. You will see that an Halb DII collided the balloon and destroyed it. Then the others Halb DII came and were not in the mood to fight. They maneuvered but didn't engage us. My flight partners defended themselves pretty well.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/116W5csHa0kFxf6o2bx5adJ_Bg2i22LIi/view?usp=drive_link

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O8JUMT1G1J_i5631-Y3yamJ9yMW7TrlD/view?usp=drive_link

 

Hope that this can help to resolve these career AI's problems.

[S10JlAbraxis]

My only thought, regardless of how the AI gets adjusted, is please do not put any ROF hacks back in.  One change I really enjoy is that accurate and close in shooting is required to bring down enemy aircraft.  This feels much more realistic and enjoyable and my gunnery skills have improved as a result.  On the other hand I do agree the AI does not always maneuver as agressivly as I would like although the recent update did help.  

[Dr1falcon500]

8 hours ago, S10JlAbraxis said:

My only thought, regardless of how the AI gets adjusted, is please do not put any ROF hacks back in.  One change I really enjoy is that accurate and close in shooting is required to bring down enemy aircraft.  This feels much more realistic and enjoyable and my gunnery skills have improved as a result.  On the other hand I do agree the AI does not always maneuver as agressivly as I would like although the recent update did help.  

The RoF hack that had wings being shot off at 250m really ruined it for me. From what I've heard it was because some thought it was too hard to shoot planes down. It shouldn't be so easy, only if as you say get in close. There are now RoF mods to fix the butterfly wings hack.

[WitchyWoman]

I do not want hacks at all.

 

Thats not what the game needs. The problem is not in damage adjustment either and I think its pretty clear whats needed from all the input in this thread from everyone. We simply want the enemy and friendly AI to fight rather then act like they are blind to their mission, blind to the action around them, or stop fleeing like cowards. I want them to at least act like they do in the WW2 side of this game.

 

BTW in my hundreds of missions. I have never seen friendlies or enemies  go after balloons much less anything else really. I have always been the only plane going after enemy targets in my flight. Yes its that much of a mess in career mode in my opinion.

 

And for the record I bit the bullet and bought FC III last week,against my judgement in hoping these huge problems get rectified so I can finally enjoy it soon.

 

Send every track you can to the developers ASAP.

Edited January 3, 2024 by WitchyWoman

[Dr1falcon500]

There seems to be frequent collisions almost one every mission. In the last 4 missions there has been a collision in 3 of them and that's only the ones I've noticed. In this Esc 103 balloon protection mission 2 Albatroses collided just above me. About a minute later my flight CO dived into my plane for no apparent reason. My kite was critically damaged so I redid the mission.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/lqq4lptekj7bbgw/career-7-hubert_humbert-1916.2024-01-02_21-42-23_04.7z/file

[Duckman]

My two cents from mostly doing 2 vs 2 in QMB (yes its kinda boring but I like to experiment with different matchups):

 

- The AI is not that bad, or maybe I'm not that good. I would describe it as solid but predictable (Average level). I can usually get on its tail but that's not surprising given umpteen hours in flight sims and studying BFM concepts. I'm nowhere near elite but I suspect the average simmer has far less experience than me, not to mention the average WWI pilot!

 

- The AI's energy management is confusing. Sometimes it does well and tries to stay above you but often it just goes into a diving spiral. I'm guessing the diving spiral was one of the more common outcomes in real WWI fights but it does feel a bit scripted and non-dynamic.

 

- My main problem with the AI is that the age old problem of "omnivision" seems to persist. The AI appears to have extremely good all around SA making it hard to surprise it and execute proper and historic tactics. It appears to me that it should be more susceptible to target fixation, losing SA against multiple oppoonents, and have much poorer SA to the rear. This would make it more susceptible to surprise attacks.

 

- The AI very rarely stalls, spins, or loses control in other ways. This is possibly a consquence of it not flying very aggressively as noted above, but it does not add to my feeling of realism.

 

- The AI's shooting seems okay at Average level. I haven't tried the other levels much but sniper accuracy is generally my main beef with higher AI levels. Yes there were crack long distance shots but they were very, very rare and in game terms would be Ace of Aces or something like that. 

 

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

17 minutes ago, Duckman said:

The AI appears to have extremely good all around SA making it hard to surprise it and execute proper and historic tactics.

 

 

 

 

[WitchyWoman]

I too can attest to the AI wingman colliding with each other in formation flight so far in career mode. I was in a 5 ship formation tonight and just before crossing no mans land. 2 Hab II;s collided and burned. I sadly did not get a track of this though. This seems to be a newer issue than  the AI combat issues but it seems that a few planes in every mission are going down like this. I have seen it from long distance happening to other AI flights to. I will try to get a Trk next time.

[Majpalmer]

I've run two FC campaigns. In both, I've lost most of my comrades to blue-on-blue collisions. I've lost twice as many to friendly crashes as I have to enemy action. I turned off collisions on my difficulty settings, but it doesn't appear to help the other guys. 

[J99_Sizzlorr]

8 hours ago, Majpalmer said:

I've run two FC campaigns. In both, I've lost most of my comrades to blue-on-blue collisions. I've lost twice as many to friendly crashes as I have to enemy action. I turned off collisions on my difficulty settings, but it doesn't appear to help the other guys. 

When do those collisions happen? In combat or while flying to target area? Are you flying fighter or 2 seater? I have noticed 2 seater planes like to collide on waypoint changes, when in formtion, Or when waiting for the next waypoint input. Fighters tend to collide more during combat.

[Avimimus]

In the attached track:

- I'm flying in the QMB in a Pfalz D.IIIa. The situation is a 1v8 fight, with eight Hanriot H.D.1 fighters flown by aces

- I fly relatively lazy circles with only a couple of sharp defensive maneouvres. I also refuse to fire my guns.

 

The end result of flying unarmed against eight aces is:

- Two Hanriot HD.1 collide with each other (perhaps not that unrealistic?)

- Two Hanriot HD.1 crash into the ground

- Two other HD.1 disappear (I'm not sure what happened to them).

 

After fifteen minutes I get bored enough that I literally look away from the screen for a a dozen seconds and crash the plane.

 

This isn't to critique the latest AI update - I think it is the best AI we've had so far (and in Rise of Flight, all of the enemies might have crashed into the ground). However, this does illustrate some weaknesses of the AI (a 1v8 against aces, in an equivalent plane, should probably require at least some effort to survive).

PfalzDIIIvs8HanriotHD1Ace.zip

[Majpalmer]

6 hours ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

When do those collisions happen? In combat or while flying to target area? Are you flying fighter or 2 seater? I have noticed 2 seater planes like to collide on waypoint changes, when in formtion, Or when waiting for the next waypoint input. Fighters tend to collide more during combat.

Single seater. In all cases en route to a waypoint. I monitor other flights, as well, for example, two-seaters I'm supposed to escort. I've seen them collide, too. There were two of them, and then the next time I check there's one and wreckage on the ground. 

 

I've seen other collisions in combat, but I didn't count them. I only counted losses to blue-on blue collisi9ons while transiting to the target. Generally, on the return flight, the aircraft are scattered and rarely in a formation. 

[jollyjack]

On 1/20/2024 at 2:15 PM, Avimimus said:

In the attached track:

- I'm flying in the QMB in a Pfalz D.IIIa. The situation is a 1v8 fight, with eight Hanriot H.D.1 fighters flown by aces

- I fly relatively lazy circles with only a couple of sharp defensive maneouvres. I also refuse to fire my guns.

 

The end result of flying unarmed against eight aces is:

- Two Hanriot HD.1 collide with each other (perhaps not that unrealistic?)

- Two Hanriot HD.1 crash into the ground

- Two other HD.1 disappear (I'm not sure what happened to them).

 

After fifteen minutes I get bored enough that I literally look away from the screen for a a dozen seconds and crash the plane.

 

This isn't to critique the latest AI update - I think it is the best AI we've had so far (and in Rise of Flight, all of the enemies might have crashed into the ground). However, this does illustrate some weaknesses of the AI (a 1v8 against aces, in an equivalent plane, should probably require at least some effort to survive).

PfalzDIIIvs8HanriotHD1Ace.zip 3.93 MB · 1 download

 

Just downloaded it, curious as i am i will re-post it when it behaves differently if i reverse the roles of the set planes.

But i am glad to see the devs are working at improving FC  ...

 

ADDED Report 1: about 15 minutes i shot 3 HD1s, and did not see any other crash into one another etc.

Maybe because i set the _gen mission from quick skirmish to single play?

PfalzDIIIvs8HanriotHD1Ace_SP.zip

 

PS what is the camera.tc file doing?

Edited January 21, 2024 by jollyjack

[Majpalmer]

One thing that we need to keep in mind is that, I suspect, almost everyone here is a veteran with flight sims. I'm talking decades of experience. What would be interesting would be to get a complete novice, given him 10 hours of training on Il-2 FC, and send him up against an AI pilot, Veteran or Ace. Would he find the AI challenging? What's your guess? When new guys, even with extensive experience, show up on the servers, how long do they usually last? 

 

I'm actually working on a video arguing that the AI is too good. I found one reference that of all the US fighter pilots, all services, during WWII, 90% never even claimed a kill. For the Luftwaffe single-seat fighter force during WWII, the percentage with zero claims was 80%. About that same percentage ended up dead! So, if you go up with a flight of five, and the other four guys do shit, that's actually realistic. 

 

It's not challenging, to be sure. But is that because the AI is bad or because the typical Il-2, or WOFF player, is too good? 

 

Just a thought. 

[giftgruen]

Well @MayPalmer - to have an accurate 'war simulation' in terms of statistics in last consequence would also mean, that a player, buying IL2 FC, has the license for one career only. Beeing shot down then means, that you have a lifetime ban from IL2, because you're dead. Right ?

 

Great idea.  I have some doubts if this could be a good business plan for IL2 but maybe they will implement this because of historical accuracy ?

 

Hey. This is a computer game.

We want to have fun.

 

Therefore we need a challenging AI.

We rather dont need an AI that fullfills this kind of statistical correctness.

Edited February 7, 2024 by giftgruen

[Majpalmer]

14 minutes ago, giftgruen said:

Well @MayPalmer - to have an accurate 'war simulation' in terms of statistics in last consequence would also mean, that a player, buying IL2 FC, has the license for one career only. Beeing shot down then means, that you have a lifetime ban from IL2, because you're dead. Right ?

 

Great idea.  I have some doubts if this could be a good business plan for IL2 but maybe they will implement this because of historical accuracy ?

 

Hey. This is a computer game.

We want to have fun.

 

Therefore we need a challenging AI.

We rather dont need an AI that fullfills this kind of statistical correctness.

I agree. I want a more challenging AI. My point is that it's not challenging because it's realistic. If I played flight sim realistically, I would have had to off myself during my first sortie in 1985 playing Jet.