Development team stream (pre-stream discussion)

[Avimimus]

Honestly, I can't see giving release dates ever going well (speaking about the entire industry - not specifically Il-2... which, honestly, has often had shorter delays than other games... what were the two slowest products out? Kuban and Normandy? ...those were around nine months delayed at most, as opposed to the usual two or three years that we see in the game industry now - which isn't great, but it supports the idea that it is better to only give dates when the product is finished).

 

Also, Oleg Maddox (the first head of the Il-2 franchise), is the one for whom the phrase 'two weeks' was coined... after he repeatedly said patches were coming out in two weeks only for them to take longer. That is one tradition that is dying out among forum members (i.e. joking that 'two weeks' is always the amount of time until the next release, whether it be two days or two months), but it goes to show that there is nothing new about it taking a while to get news.

 

P.S. When discussing delays I'm not counting work by third parties i.e. IAR 80/81 - a plane we should feel grateful for in my opinion, and should appreciate that someone built it largely in his spare time for us.

[Trooper117]

''Sometime this week''... Vague? but it is shorter than ''2 weeks'' be sure!

[Gambit21]

58 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

''Sometime this week''... Vague? but it is shorter than ''2 weeks'' be sure!

“Sometime this week” is the new “2 weeks”  

 

 

[Trooper117]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

“Sometime this week” is the new “2 weeks”  

 

Makes note to self... must remember that quote!

[Rjel]

I think my interest in whatever is coming has shifted from being excited to intrigued, to curious to hope I’ll still be here if it’s ever made public. 

[Gambit21]

10 minutes ago, Rjel said:

I think my interest in whatever is coming has shifted from being excited to intrigued, to curious to hope I’ll still be here if it’s ever made public. 

 

I think they're between a rock and a hard place at this juncture in multiple arenas.

Hopefully for the good of the genre they can pull it together. 

 

[Jade_Monkey]

The last stream over a year ago Albert was saying things like "yeah we can do monthly 1-2 hr video updates" 

Han was like  ?

[Trooper117]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I think they're between a rock and a hard place at this juncture in multiple arenas.

Hopefully for the good of the genre they can pull it together. 

 

 

I get the feeling that things are just not as rosy as they report that it is... I always feel that they are stalling for time continually, and that for over a year now, when we do get snippits of information, it's all ''everything is fine and it's all going well'' etc, when anyone with more than two brain cells knows things are not as they seem.

Forum traffic is nowhere what it was 18 months ago, with many posts of people moving on or just pissed off with no news for the future etc... after all this time, we still don't know if all our current GB stuff will be compatible with the new project for gods sake!

[Avimimus]

24 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

I get the feeling that things are just not as rosy as they report that it is... I always feel that they are stalling for time continually, and that for over a year now, when we do get snippits of information, it's all ''everything is fine and it's all going well'' etc, when anyone with more than two brain cells knows things are not as they seem.

Forum traffic is nowhere what it was 18 months ago, with many posts of people moving on or just pissed off with no news for the future etc... after all this time, we still don't know if all our current GB stuff will be compatible with the new project for gods sake!

 

So, some thoughts:

 

1) We are using the wrong point of comparison. Most game companies take several years to develop a product. During most of those years they tell the public nothing. We only find out about the product close to when it is launched (or when a DLC is about to come out). Even once a game is still in development post-release, updates often happen once every three or nine months.

 

We have been treated to development updates (articles and pictures) every two or three weeks (at the start of development), and then almost weekly. This is an unusually high rate of communication.

 

2) Furthermore, they somehow managed to keep building on the same engine (without major rewrites), and supply us with a new module every 12 to 18 months... for years... which is impressive given the size of the team. (In comparison, DCS modules often take three to five years for a single aircraft.)

 

However, if they were doing substantial improvements to the engine, we should expect a time from of more like 24 to 36 months between modules. They've stated that they are aiming to make major improvements. They've also stated that they have enlarged the team (which shows that the publisher backs the product, something which should allay worries).

 

In conclusion:

 

The fact that there is more time between modules (due to them working on deeper improvements) should not be surprising and the fact that they are waiting until closer to release to start drumming up sales also makes perfect sense.

 

This is normal.

 

[453=Whittle]

49 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

 after all this time, we still don't know if all our current GB stuff will be compatible with the new project for gods sake!

 

... which implies that it won't be. They would have more sales of GB modules if they confirmed compatibility.

[Trooper117]

I don't care about the new product, but many do... I am a member of many other flight sim forums where I have chats with other IL2 members who are totally jacked off with IL2 GB and have moved on, and don't tell me Avimimus that the forum traffic is as buoyant as it ever was because it isn't.

Some people here may close their eyes and ears to perceived problems, but many want answers... tell me why after over a year they still won't tell their own fans, people who have supported their game and have bought all their products, whether or not the current GB series will be compatible with the new project... give me one good and honest reason why they refuse to tell people who have bought all of their products and helped pay their wages, whether or not it will be compatible.

As to the new project, as stated more than once, if it interests me I'll surely buy it...

[RoteDreizehn]

33 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

I don't care about the new product, but many do... I am a member of many other flight sim forums where I have chats with other IL2 members who are totally jacked off with IL2 GB and have moved on, and don't tell me Avimimus that the forum traffic is as buoyant as it ever was because it isn't.

Some people here may close their eyes and ears to perceived problems, but many want answers... tell me why after over a year they still won't tell their own fans, people who have supported their game and have bought all their products, whether or not the current GB series will be compatible with the new project... give me one good and honest reason why they refuse to tell people who have bought all of their products and helped pay their wages, whether or not it will be compatible.

As to the new project, as stated more than once, if it interests me I'll surely buy it...

 

pls dont bother/blame Avimimus. I think he is a good guy. He just try to help. I can imagine he is just between the fronts

[R33GZ]

38 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

give me one good and honest reason why

The most likely answer to that question is that it won't be backwards compatible.

I'd imagine they would like to squeeze every last drop of sales out of the current GB series before announcing something like that

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Jade_Monkey said:

The last stream over a year ago Albert was saying things like "yeah we can do monthly 1-2 hr video updates" 

Han was like  ?

 

The plan was to do monthly updates, but then there just was not enough content to produce monthly updates like that. 

[Yogiflight]

19 minutes ago, R33GZ said:

The most likely answer to that question is that it won't be backwards compatible.

...or even more, that they really go to Korea, then it wouldn't even mind if it will be backward compatible.

 

Oops I said the evil 'K'-word

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Trooper117 said:

, and don't tell me Avimimus that the forum traffic is as buoyant as it ever was because it isn't.

 

Dude, when did I ever say that forum traffic isn't down? Traffic peaks around releases (e.g. patches with content or new modules) and the pace is clearly lower. As a moderator it is pretty easy to notice.

 

As for answers, I also want answers... I think we all want to know about the future. As for backwards compatibility, yes, it would be nice to have some clarity on this. Why don't we wait two weeks for the stream and see if it provides some information on that?

 

You clearly care about this series of sims as much as I do, and I will be waiting to find out myself whether the existing modules will benefit from engine improvements. As for one good and honest reason why this isn't clarified already... well, perhaps they are very busy seeing what they can achieve?

[LukeFF]

I know I'm stepping into a bit of a minefield here giving out dates, but...

 

The next update, as the last dev blog states, is on track to be released by December 19th. After that, the team will be on Christmas vacation starting on December 30th. So, realistically, you can expect the stream to be released sometime between those two dates.

[Avimimus]

9 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

I know I'm stepping into a bit of a minefield here giving out dates, but...

 

It was nice knowing you!

 

S!

[PatrickAWlson]

On 12/12/2023 at 10:35 PM, LukeFF said:

 

I already have my bingo card ready for all the responses that are going to come from this video. ? 

 

"Synergy"  ... I win!

[Jade_Monkey]

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

The plan was to do monthly updates, but then there just was not enough content to produce monthly updates like that. 

 

 

After a full year of secrecy I do hope they have something to show for (screenshots, 3D rendering, maps).

Having just a Q&A after all this time and get just more vague promises is not going to settle very well.

[BladeMeister]

Gents, Relax. We have no control over the situation. 1C has stated their intentions as to talking about the new project and hopefully this question answering vid will satisfy the GB open endedness.

For now, It is what it is, sort like CLOD.

 

S!Blade<><?

[Koziolek]

6 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

Gents, Relax. We have no control over the situation. 1C has stated their intentions as to talking about the new project and hopefully this question answering vid will satisfy the GB open endedness.

For now, It is what it is, sort like CLOD.

 

S!Blade<><?

have you checked the CLoD forum lately? ?

See how much information we are getting now from TF. GB team in not even close

11 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

The plan was to do monthly updates, but then there just was not enough content to produce monthly updates like that. 

C'mon Luke, I know you are in a hard spot but don't try to bullsh..t the bullsh...ters. There is always enough to produce an update. If someone wants to. Or just give a few straight answers. And I'm not talking about revealing the new theatre

Edited December 16, 2023 by Koziolek

[Avimimus]

7 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

After a full year of secrecy I do hope they have something to show for (screenshots, 3D rendering, maps).

Having just a Q&A after all this time and get just more vague promises is not going to settle very well.

6 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

Gents, Relax. We have no control over the situation. 1C has stated their intentions as to talking about the new project and hopefully this question answering vid will satisfy the GB open endedness.

 

From what I've heard the stream will discuss the sim overall but won't announce the new module. I also suspect that we won't get pictures, as the big winter patch will have just released (four aircraft: R.E.8, IAR 80, IAR 81, WACO). I think we'll probably have to wait until the next dev updates to see progress on the 2024 aircraft (Ta-152H, I-153, Spit IXc late, various aircraft from Rise of Flight).

 

We might get some interesting answers or insights though. Personally, I'll be interested to see any news (regardless of whether it clarifies the big issue: whether existing modules will be maintained and benefit from at least some of the planned engine improvements). I am hoping for more indications on that though.

 

P.S.

I'm sure there could be even more regular dev updates... but they'd probably be less interesting? Instead of an article full of history we'd get incremental improvements on 3d models or bug fixes from the beta. As someone who now has access to the beta forums, I can tell you it is actually pretty boring. Details of attachment points for gunsights (e.g. brass band or not?), all sorts of trivial graphical glitches etc.
 

 

[Avimimus]

On 12/11/2023 at 5:22 PM, LukeFF said:

Yes, all told, it was 16(!) pages of questions when compiled into a Word document, so there is potentially a lot of ground to cover in the stream. 

 

Yeah, and LukeFF didn't accept my questions... so, well, that should put to rest the idea of Moderators getting preferential treatment or anything ?

 

I only submitted, what, two or three pages more Luke? ? Of course, that still left out all of my other questions... so I'll have to wait until the next Q&A.

 

 

  

On 12/11/2023 at 8:43 PM, LukeFF said:

Oh, there will be plenty to talk about after this video. ? Otherwise, you all don't have a pulse. ? 

 

Halloween is over Luke, you don't need to scare your moderators...

[EAF19_Marsh]

On 12/11/2023 at 9:43 PM, LukeFF said:

 

Oh, there will be plenty to talk about after this video. ? Otherwise, you all don't have a pulse. ? 

What video?

[Trooper117]

19 hours ago, RoteDreizehn said:

pls dont bother/blame Avimimus.

 

No one is blaming Avimimus, least of all me... he responded with a lengthy post to my previous one, ending with basically all is normal... but all is not normal unless you are blind or deaf... plus, I asked for his honest opinion, which he gave later. I have no problem with him whatsoever.

 

6 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

What video?

 

The video where the Dev's tell us what's going on with the game, everything that is except any news to do with the new project, that is verboten!

[Avimimus]

19 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

No one is blaming Avimimus, least of all me... 

 

Thanks! I appreciate that.

 

19 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

he responded with a lengthy post to my previous one, ending with basically all is normal... but all is not normal unless you are blind or deaf... plus, I asked for his honest opinion, which he gave later. I have no problem with him whatsoever.

 

Well, I'd characterise what I was trying to communicate as "This isn't that unusual for the games industry", even if it isn't what we are used to... and even if it is very reasonable to want more information (especially about ongoing support for already released modules).

 

I think part of it is that the combat flight simulation genre is now down to two major companies, with a couple of others that haven't released anything yet, or are maintaining much older game engines (and doing so on limited budgets)... so we really care about the decisions made by these two companies, as they will determine the fate of the genre. It is reasonable to be a bit anxious, especially if one lived through the simulation apocalypse in the early 2000s (which killed something like 90% of flight simulator projects). We're all in the same boat, as are, arguably, the developers - who have their livelihoods riding upon the success of these projects as well.

 

So, I understand, we're all in the same boat, and we'll get some information with the Q&A and a lot more information with the official announcement of the next module (which I personally expect might take place this spring). Just a couple of weeks and a few months and things we'll know.

 

P.S. I personally would have been happy if they'd continued just expanding the existing simulation, as they'd end up increasingly having to do relatively obscure theatres and aircraft (something I like and see a lot of gameplay potential in). Whereas if they create a significant increase in something like landscape/map fidelity, they could end up remaking the existing maps and never get around to the obscure stuff!

 

But what I want isn't necessarily what other people want, what I want isn't necessarily what is good for the genre, and I'm just speculating like everyone else.

 

I would like everyone to also want the Italian/Austro-Hungarian front in WWI... and I honestly think it'd provide excellent gameplay and sell as well as (or even better than) other WWI modules... but I know I could be wrong about this, very wrong. So when it doesn't happen, well, I'll just keep dreaming.

[EAF19_Marsh]

23 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

 

The video where the Dev's tell us what's going on with the game, everything that is except any news to do with the new project, that is verboten!

There is a game? And Devs? Pull the other rope, it has bells on. Next you are going to tell me that you believe in the One Ring and Jedi.

 

”A video”. Ha. Possibly Ho. And Festive Lulz.

[Trooper117]

4 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Next you are going to tell me that you believe in the One Ring and Jedi.

 

 

I am a Jedi, every airborne soldier is a Jedi, so I know that's true, plus I definitely only have one ring.  

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, Koziolek said:

C'mon Luke, I know you are in a hard spot but don't try to bullsh..t the bullsh...ters. There is always enough to produce an update. If someone wants to. Or just give a few straight answers. And I'm not talking about revealing the new theatre

 

Nope, sorry, it's the truth - and that was something shared with me by the last CM, whom everyone here held in high regard. There has not been enough information to warrant monthly video updates.

[Gambit21]

13 hours ago, Avimimus said:

P.S. I personally would have been happy if they'd continued just expanding the existing simulation, as they'd end up increasingly having to do relatively obscure theatres and aircraft (something I like and see a lot of gameplay potential in). Whereas if they create a significant increase in something like landscape/map fidelity, they could end up remaking the existing maps and never get around to the obscure stuff!

The problem is that they’re already behind, and falling further behind. In fact the only place they’re  ahead is sheer number of flying aircraft and cohesive theaters and assets. Nothing to sneeze at! ??

 

So either they start catching up now, and I’m talking mesh density, multiple 4K maps, PBR textures, flight model fidelity, systems simulation (at least to some extent) multithreading, ongoing mission editor development with logic enhancements and widely marketable content - or they’ll never catch up. So whatever is going on is quite necessary I’m sure.

 

The current engine and these cartoonish cockpit textures are not aging well. Go look at the F-4 cockpit pics. That’s the future.  Current GB pits are not even caught up with 2018.

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Current GB pits are not even caught up with 2018.

 

Well, I dare say the IAR 80 cockpit is going to set a new standard for the series. ??

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Well, I dare say the IAR 80 cockpit is going to set a new standard for the series. ??

For the series no doubt

Looking very nice from what I can see. Compliments to the artists.

[EAF19_Marsh]

On 12/16/2023 at 1:13 AM, LukeFF said:

The next update, as the last dev blog states, is on track to be released by December 19th.

CoP 18th or CoP 19th? ?

[ITAF_Rani]

Devs stream...any news?

[Trooper117]

35 minutes ago, ITAF_Rani said:

Devs stream...any news?

 

''Sometime this week''...

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

''Sometime this week''...

 

No, the last word I gave was it'll come when it's ready, which is likely between today the nineteenth, and before they go on Christmas vacation later this month.

[Trooper117]

You are out of the loop Luke... it's been agreed, ''Sometime this week'', is the new ''2 weeks, be sure''.

[Gambit21]

Sometime this week be sure!

[EAF19_Marsh]

Friday 22nd is the new 19th.

 

Probably.