What's the dealio with the AI?

[76SQN-Minimayhemtemp]

Been away from the game over a year now.  I'm terrible at MP, and wanted to enjoy SP (career or PWCG) but found the AI, even for a frankly rubbish pilot like myself, a complete joke.  Is that still the case?

 

Hoping someone can kindly save me downloading, reinstalling and booting up the game to only be dissapointed.

[Russkly]

46 minutes ago, 76SQN-Minimayhemtemp said:

Been away from the game over a year now.  I'm terrible at MP, and wanted to enjoy SP (career or PWCG) but found the AI, even for a frankly rubbish pilot like myself, a complete joke.  Is that still the case?

 

Hoping someone can kindly save me downloading, reinstalling and booting up the game to only be dissapointed.

 

It's very subjective of course.

 

As an SP-only player I find that changing the Mission AI settings to +4 in PWCG Advanced Config is the only way to get a decent challenge.

 

Unfortunately in Career Mode, even at max. difficulty, it's a bit of a turkey shoot (alongside the other problems with the Career Mode that have been reported elsewhere).

 

Even more unfortunately, LukeFF has confirmed that there will be no more work on the FC AI or Career Mode, so what we have is what we have.

 

But try PWCG at +4 and see what you think.

 

Overall I find PWCG simply a better career mode option than 1C's.

[giftgruen]

Flying Circus AI is a joke. Right.

 

Maybe try the WW2-parts. AI there is not good but somewhat better.

[Gunfreak]

3 hours ago, Russkly said:

 

It's very subjective of course.

 

As an SP-only player I find that changing the Mission AI settings to +4 in PWCG Advanced Config is the only way to get a decent challenge.

 

Unfortunately in Career Mode, even at max. difficulty, it's a bit of a turkey shoot (alongside the other problems with the Career Mode that have been reported elsewhere).

 

Even more unfortunately, LukeFF has confirmed that there will be no more work on the FC AI or Career Mode, so what we have is what we have.

 

But try PWCG at +4 and see what you think.

 

Overall I find PWCG simply a better career mode option than 1C's.

What exactly does +4 do? Does it actually change the AI or does it simply add morexe en enemies?

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Russkly said:

Even more unfortunately, LukeFF has confirmed that there will be no more work on the FC AI or Career Mode, so what we have is what we have.

 

I never said that. ? Work on career mode is ongoing, but with AI it's just one of those things where changes are going to be slow in coming. Doesn't mean it's been stopped completely, though.

[Russkly]

52 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

What exactly does +4 do? Does it actually change the AI or does it simply add morexe en enemies?

It appears to up-skill the AI, so that you will encounter a higher percentage of ace pilots.

 

Either way, it does make it more of a challenge, at least within the limitations of the AI programming.

[Russkly]

43 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

I never said that. ? Work on career mode is ongoing, but with AI it's just one of those things where changes are going to be slow in coming. Doesn't mean it's been stopped completely, though.

Fair point - the thread in question dealt more with the FMs rather than with the AI or Career Mode.

 

It would be lovely to understand whether FC's AI and Career Mode will indeed to further tweaked however, if you can. That news would be a significant shot in the arm for FC customers, especially as we approach FC3 release and await FC4 next year some time.

 

In terms of the marketing pitch for FC3 & FC4, knowing that there will be further work done on the AI and Career Mode, if not on the FMs, would be a very positive message.

 

So, if 1C is going to do that, please don't hide your light under a bushel.

 

By the same token, if 1C is not going to work on those elements, please be upfront about it.

 

I appreciate that you are simply the messenger here, but I trust that your influence with 1C extends to clarifying what its customers should expect or not expect (as you did with the FM debate) - if's, maybe's and possibly's based on available programming resources isn't really going to cut it, when 1C wants to charge a reasonably serious amount of money for ostensibly new products.

[Gunfreak]

13 minutes ago, Russkly said:

It appears to up-skill the AI, so that you will encounter a higher percentage of ace pilots.

 

Either way, it does make it more of a challenge, at least within the limitations of the AI programming.

I've found no real difference in AI from worst to Ace. They still just fly in lazy turns doing little to avoid getting shot and even less to try and get you. Maybe an increase in random pilot snipes.

[Trooper117]

The whole AI thing needs redoing from the ground up... it's always been an ongoing problem in one form or another, and that goes for the comm's system as well.

We can hope that the new project does amazing work on that front...

[Gunfreak]

14 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

The whole AI thing needs redoing from the ground up... it's always been an ongoing problem in one form or another, and that goes for the comm's system as well.

We can hope that the new project does amazing work on that front...

AI in flight sims are always the weakest point.

Of the 3 current ww2 flight sims, only 1 have AI truly fighting I'm the vertical with German 109s rarely wanting to get into a turn fight with spitfire. But the AI in that sims has other bad AI behaviour. 

In IL2 the AI will go into lazy turns be they a spitfire or fw190. In Flying Circus the AI almost never "stunts " just same lazy turns as ww2 planes. 

And my biggest pet peeve in il2 AI. In career mode the mission generator always put the clouds in an elevation were they AI always flies. So half the missions the AI disappears into the clouds and stay there for 20 minutes. And the AI seems incalculable of going above 12 000 feet. So you are flying high altitude escort planes like P47 and P51 far lower than they should.

[Russkly]

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

I've found no real difference in AI from worst to Ace. They still just fly in lazy turns doing little to avoid getting shot and even less to try and get you. Maybe an increase in random pilot snipes.

Try +4 in PWCG.

 

My flight in Spads flies BNZ pretty well and rarely tries to turn with Albatri and Pfalzes.

[Guest deleted@219798]

The last PWCG mission I flew was Jasta 18. A flight of Albatros and Pfalz took off on a patrol of the frontline. I started climbing for height, after about 10 minutes my plane was at 1,700m. The rest including the leader were only around 800m. When we got to the action they were still below 2,000m and got bounced by enemy planes. 3 got shot down and the other returned with damage. Waypoints and map show how high you should be, AI flight ignored the waypoints and just dawdled along. Easy pilot kills add to the sense of unreality I shot down 3 SE5's and 3 Camels from 2 or 3 short bursts. Pilot kills except for one flamer. Air gunners now can't hit much at all. Approach and shoot down 2 seaters knowing that if a gunner does any sort of substantial damage to your plane its just a lucky shot.

[JG27_Steini]

13 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

The whole AI thing needs redoing from the ground up... it's always been an ongoing problem in one form or another, and that goes for the comm's system as well.

We can hope that the new project does amazing work on that front...

 

And again Luke said that finding good AI programmer is almost impossible. I stopped being optimistic hoping that after so many years the AI will finaly be a challenge. All modules base on the same RoF engine, which is poor in AI. Dont expect any changes here. We will get a new setting, better graphics and we will move on.

[Trooper117]

Well it's pretty simple for me... if there is no improvement in the AI or comm's menu system in this new project, I'll not buy another thing from them.

Those two things for me as a single player guy are a must have fix... the MP side of things are probably better, and it's what the dev's seem to concentrate or rely on, simply because they can't fully sort out the stuff the SP crowd need.

[Guest deleted@219798]

4 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

And again Luke said that finding good AI programmer is almost impossible. I stopped being optimistic hoping that after so many years the AI will finaly be a challenge. All modules base on the same RoF engine, which is poor in AI. Dont expect any changes here. We will get a new setting, better graphics and we will move on.

It's probably only a challenge because IC is unwilling to pay for it. They're willing to accept $80 per volume. The pace making the Western Front map and creating a career mode has been a real funeral march. Volume 4 and all seasons of the map will be ready some time next year? Advanced Quick Mission Builder was supposed to made available but that's still in the wind.

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, kestrel444x500 said:

It's probably only a challenge because IC is unwilling to pay for it. They're willing to accept $80 per volume. The pace making the Western Front map and creating a career mode has been a real funeral march. Volume 4 and all seasons of the map will be ready some time next year? Advanced Quick Mission Builder was supposed to made available but that's still in the wind.

 

Good AI programmers are hard to find. It has nothing to do with 1CGS being unwilling to pay for them. All the wargaming titles I follow will tell you the same thing: all the good AI coders are being picked up by the big companies before everyone else because unsurprisingly they pay the best. It's just a fact of life right now. 

[Guest deleted@219798]

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Good AI programmers are hard to find. It has nothing to do with 1CGS being unwilling to pay for them. All the wargaming titles I follow will tell you the same thing: all the good AI coders are being picked up by the big companies before everyone else because unsurprisingly they pay the best. It's just a fact of life right now. 

Yet they seemed to be able to somehow find programmers for the Big Project, and before that for Normandy.

[LukeFF]

25 minutes ago, kestrel444x500 said:

Yet they seemed to be able to somehow find programmers for the Big Project, and before that for Normandy.

 

There's more to coding than just AI. ?

[No.23_Triggers]

7 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Good AI programmers are hard to find. It has nothing to do with 1CGS being unwilling to pay for them. All the wargaming titles I follow will tell you the same thing: all the good AI coders are being picked up by the big companies before everyone else because unsurprisingly they pay the best. It's just a fact of life right now. 

Exception to the rule being whoever does WoFF's AI. They are outstanding, and feel genuinely threatening to fly against. 

[JG27_Steini]

17 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

There's more to coding than just AI. ?

 

Wish you would not have said this. AI is the most important part for single player simulation. Do you think people will buy the same crappy AI over again and again? People just come back after years only asking whether the AI is finally good, or worse when FC player state the AI in RoF is better then FC.

 

After a decade now most fights end up in endless circles. There is not even a tiny silver shimmering at the horizon. You will not catch the old player back when the AI is not able to progress.

[Dr1falcon500]

23 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

There's more to coding than just AI. ?

That wins 1st prize in the Stating the Bleeding Obvious Award. And we're all dumb.

[No.23_Starling]

On 12/1/2023 at 12:57 AM, No.23_Triggers said:

Exception to the rule being whoever does WoFF's AI. They are outstanding, and feel genuinely threatening to fly against. 

Spot on. They’re using 20 year old tech with a small team and can hardly be raking in the dollars, yet their AI is dangerous, engaging, and shows historically-appropriate behaviour.

 

 

[Gunfreak]

12 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

Spot on. They’re using 20 year old tech with a small team and can hardly be raking in the dollars, yet their AI is dangerous, engaging, and shows historically-appropriate behaviour.

 

 

I really wish WoFF had VR...

Can't do any sims without VR. 

[No.23_Starling]

11 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

I really wish WoFF had VR...

Can't do any sims without VR. 

The older version supported VorpX - there’s a video of someone on YouTube getting it working - but I can’t get it going on the more recent releases. Would be spectacular if it worked.

[VonS]

6 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

The older version supported VorpX - there’s a video of someone on YouTube getting it working - but I can’t get it going on the more recent releases. Would be spectacular if it worked.

 

Hello gents',

 

It seems that WoFF requires some files from its previous PE (Platinum Edition) add-on in order to work (more) properly in VR. See this thread over on the SimHQ forums for more info.

 

+1 to the WoFF series having excellent AI - the caviar of WWI single-player flight sims, but probably not as well known as RoF/FC. Also, if you like do-it-yourself modular approaches to WWI, check over First Eagles 2, too (and its mods) - 'tis the WWI flight sim equivalent of a Linux distro but works great when modded. Always good to have several WWI flight sims.

 

Cheers all & happy flying,

?

Edited December 2, 2023 by VonS
Edited post.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

Guys, it's 2023. Play multiplayer and forget about AI. The last sim with good AI besides WoFF was modded 1946. It just isn't a huge priority with how capable multiplayer and co-op flying is these days.

 

There's just no reason to keep complaining about it. If they could (or wanted to) make the AI decent, they would. It is what it is. Having WW1 and WW2 AI under the same roof likely doesn't help...WW2 guys are always complaining about the AI turn fights in energy fighters as well.

 

No, this does not absolve the developers of many different sims (IL-2, CLoD, DCS, Warthunder, etc.) for failing to make half-way decent AI, but it will help you enjoy the sim much more, make friends, fly coordinated team tactics, etc. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by =DW=_drewm3i-VR

[=IRFC=Gascan]

54 minutes ago, =DW=_drewm3i-VR said:

Guys, it's 2023. Play multiplayer and forget about AI.

While I tend to agree with you, and want features that improve the MP experience (things like more planes esp. early 2-seaters like BE2, tweaks to flight models, in-game arty spotting and photo recon missions in MP, improved mission editor capabilities, more functionality for observer/gunners), there's a lot of people who simply will not fly MP. There are also plenty of instances where the MP experience is enhanced by adding AI, either for Coop missions or careers, or for adding AI flights to help with empty or low population servers. Hell, having periodic flights of 5-9 AI DH-4's doing deep bombing raids behind enemy lines can provide a lot of action, and same for having AI arty spotters and trench mapping planes patrolling the front. Competent AI for dogfighting and solid mission-editing controls to allow them to retreat when appropriate are essential to provide that experience of a living front. As it stands, the atrocious AI means I will never bother with SP, and mostly limits MP games to only those times when lots of players can get online. The FlugPark has a Dogstart Airfight Zone filled with AI that was made to help newer players find some quick action when they show up, even if the server is pretty much empty. When enough players get online, the AI stop spawning and the airstart goes away. This server feature has helped new players get online and join the MP community, but the crappy AI limits how much they can learn until another player gets online and usually slaughters them. Remember, AI also applies to more than just dogfighting, although that is one of the most complex things to cover. Flak and MGs also have AI, as do observer/gunners in two-seaters. Those could use improvement to make them more adjustable for the level of challenge desired. Somewhere between easy mode for bomber players where the gunner laser-snipes anyone within 1km of him and useless gunners who won't score a hit on an enemy when you're flying in formation less than 10m away. And that's in addition to the problem where gunners can shoot through trees and clouds and other objects that block line of sight when they don't have radar. That is one of the biggest complaints I hear about the AI in Tank Crew, but also applies to players getting sniped by flak through a solid layer of cloud. We all stand to benefit from improved AI, not just the SP guys.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

22 minutes ago, =IRFC=Gascan said:

While I tend to agree with you, and want features that improve the MP experience (things like more planes esp. early 2-seaters like BE2, tweaks to flight models, in-game arty spotting and photo recon missions in MP, improved mission editor capabilities, more functionality for observer/gunners), there's a lot of people who simply will not fly MP. There are also plenty of instances where the MP experience is enhanced by adding AI, either for Coop missions or careers, or for adding AI flights to help with empty or low population servers. Hell, having periodic flights of 5-9 AI DH-4's doing deep bombing raids behind enemy lines can provide a lot of action, and same for having AI arty spotters and trench mapping planes patrolling the front. Competent AI for dogfighting and solid mission-editing controls to allow them to retreat when appropriate are essential to provide that experience of a living front. As it stands, the atrocious AI means I will never bother with SP, and mostly limits MP games to only those times when lots of players can get online. The FlugPark has a Dogstart Airfight Zone filled with AI that was made to help newer players find some quick action when they show up, even if the server is pretty much empty. When enough players get online, the AI stop spawning and the airstart goes away. This server feature has helped new players get online and join the MP community, but the crappy AI limits how much they can learn until another player gets online and usually slaughters them. Remember, AI also applies to more than just dogfighting, although that is one of the most complex things to cover. Flak and MGs also have AI, as do observer/gunners in two-seaters. Those could use improvement to make them more adjustable for the level of challenge desired. Somewhere between easy mode for bomber players where the gunner laser-snipes anyone within 1km of him and useless gunners who won't score a hit on an enemy when you're flying in formation less than 10m away. And that's in addition to the problem where gunners can shoot through trees and clouds and other objects that block line of sight when they don't have radar. That is one of the biggest complaints I hear about the AI in Tank Crew, but also applies to players getting sniped by flak through a solid layer of cloud. We all stand to benefit from improved AI, not just the SP guys.

I agree with everything you said, just don't see AI in GB/FC being improved sadly as it seems we're moving to a new engine with the "new project" and that FC II and III are RoF ports into VR to fund the new project.

 

Also, I've flown Flugpark and the IRFC missions for FNF on CB and they both do a great job of creating a live battlefield experience with many diverse missions/scenarios despite the game's limitations so kudos on that! ??

Edited December 3, 2023 by =DW=_drewm3i-VR

[BladeMeister]

1 hour ago, =DW=_drewm3i-VR said:

Guys, it's 2023. Play multiplayer and forget about AI. The last sim with good AI besides WoFF was modded 1946. It just isn't a huge priority with how capable multiplayer and co-op flying is these days.

 

There's just no reason to keep complaining about it. If they could (or wanted to) make the AI decent, they would. It is what it is. Having WW1 and WW2 AI under the same roof likely doesn't help...WW2 guys are always complaining about the AI turn fights in energy fighters as well.

 

No, this does not absolve the developers of many different sims (IL-2, CLoD, DCS, Warthunder, etc.) for failing to make half-way decent AI, but it will help you enjoy the sim much more, make friends, fly coordinated team tactics, etc. 

Spawn point camping, low altitude air quake, team kills and having to spend many  hours to get to a competant level to even have a chance to compete in MP and not get slaughtered against Aces that have hundreds or even thousands of hours committed. These are the reasons I don't fly MP.

  This combat flight sim sells as a SP and MP sim, so you in no way should be telling any SPer to stop complaining about the AI.

1C has given the AI some attention and improved some areas of SP including non AI SP areas such as the career mode and the NPC assets, but they have missed the boat once again in both BOX & FC just as they did with ROF SP by not investing in a competent AI that the SP community respects and enjoys. Not sure I will be here for the next go around with 1C/777 crew. I am thinking a step back to more flying in BOBII WOV, WOFF, WOTR, IL2 1946 and even DCS will be where my time and money is spent. Luckily there are other sims, even the really old ones, that provide better AI than most of the currently developed CFSs. Hopefully Combat Pilot will bring some competent AI to the Pacific, but I am not holding my breath for that one either because all Devs seem to put a low level of importance(Jason did with ROF & BOX) on SP AI investment. I never understood that because supposedly there is a bigger SP community percentage than there is a MP percentage? If the Internet says that then it has to be true right? Bonjour!

 

S!Blade<><

[Gunfreak]

Il2 and especially FC isn't big enough to have servers with enough players play when I have time to play (mid day)

As long as you dont have several packed servers 24/7. Then you can't claim Multiplayer is an substitute for singleplayer.

[Zooropa_Fly]

We've heard often enough that SP accounts for 90% of gameplay (estimate obviously).

With that in mind, I'd say ai behavior is up there with Flight Modelling in importance.

Probably too late to expect much improvement now, but I think it should have been worked harder back in the RoF days.

And I still think ww1 would be better off had RoF been given the proper treatment instead of getting FC. (VR - I know I know !)

 

S!

[Trooper117]

In my view, if you are selling FC 1-4 as a viable product, (see how they big it up on the store page) then they should give it their all to make it as good as it can be... otherwise, why should we even be bothered to buy it???

WWI is helping them gather income until this new project goes into early access... I hope they remember that.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

20 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

Spawn point camping, low altitude air quake, team kills and having to spend many  hours to get to a competant level to even have a chance to compete in MP and not get slaughtered against Aces that have hundreds or even thousands of hours committed. These are the reasons I don't fly MP.

  This combat flight sim sells as a SP and MP sim, so you in no way should be telling any SPer to stop complaining about the AI.

1C has given the AI some attention and improved some areas of SP including non AI SP areas such as the career mode and the NPC assets, but they have missed the boat once again in both BOX & FC just as they did with ROF SP by not investing in a competent AI that the SP community respects and enjoys. Not sure I will be here for the next go around with 1C/777 crew. I am thinking a step back to more flying in BOBII WOV, WOFF, WOTR, IL2 1946 and even DCS will be where my time and money is spent. Luckily there are other sims, even the really old ones, that provide better AI than most of the currently developed CFSs. Hopefully Combat Pilot will bring some competent AI to the Pacific, but I am not holding my breath for that one either because all Devs seem to put a low level of importance(Jason did with ROF & BOX) on SP AI investment. I never understood that because supposedly there is a bigger SP community percentage than there is a MP percentage? If the Internet says that then it has to be true right? Bonjour!

 

S!Blade<><

There is nothing like multiplayer when the right parameters and restraints are set. You are right that there is some BS, just like there is in single-player (terminator AI that only targets the player for instance). But it's just so much easier to build a game for multiplayer and such a richer experience if done right, because the diversity, scale, and depth of any given scenario is so dynamic and not static/linear like almost all SP ever done, with the exception of some WoFF/WoTR, BoB II, and 1946 stuff. That being said, better AI also really helps MP as there are often AI planes on most servers when populations are low and these provide good fun in my experience. 

 

My best sim experiences have been online flying with 3 or 4 other folks on comms, becoming friends, and conducting real missions on dynamic campaigns with moving frontlines, targeted towards real objectives. And when you do this, you are mostly safe and also will have a different, unpredictable sortie every time, just like in real life. It just can't be duplicated in SP and I used to only play SP. If SP was good, I would also play it. I used to be SP only until GB and VR came along and I finally didn't feel like I was at a disadvantage with a hat switch. If you ever change your mind, happy to accompany you in the virtual online skies. S!

Edited December 3, 2023 by =DW=_drewm3i-VR

[BladeMeister]

4 hours ago, =DW=_drewm3i-VR said:

There is nothing like multiplayer when the right parameters and restraints are set. You are right that there is some BS, just like there is in single-player (terminator AI that only targets the player for instance).

I was in Fulcrum Squadron, Novalogic Mig 29, F16 & F22s, Novaworld online back in the day, 56k modems, LOL and it was surprisingly pretty much lagg free. We had like 12 members, Roger Wilco comms flying the underdog Mig 29, or so I thought. I was in that Squadron for years, 3 practices and Squad flying per week, made good friends and even met up with 1 from England and 1 from North Carolina. We participated in online 6 v 6 fighter tournaments and Fulcrum Squad was regarded as the second best of all the Squads flying. Then I found out that almost all of the Squads, including mine, had cheaters who were altering the FMs to enhance their planes abilities. One of them was my friend from England, Fulcrum Squads founder and commander. I quit Fulcrum Squad and then became very involved in IL2 online through Hyperlobby and later Joint Ops. Unfortunately I found major cheating in IL2 also.

 I understand the draw of MP and yes it can be a lot of fun, but I find it easier to fight the AI, at least I know they are cheating from the get go.

Thanks for the invite, but I doubt I will be venturing into MP anymore. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt ?.

 

S!Blade<><

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by BladeMeister

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

If you're looking for purely a single player experience, I'd go with WOFF. The physics are indeed more dated, but the AI is good and the campaign experience is first rate. CLOD/Tobruk has also been improved greatly over the years. The TWC campaign can be flown as a mixed single and multiplayer environment - a few human players but mostly lots of AI in a Battle of Britain type scenario.

[giftgruen]

You're absolutely right.

The day the WOFF team implements VR graphics - I am off with FC ..

Unfortunately they probably will not do so.