Anyone interested in a Dummy AI Heavy Bomber Mod?

[kraut1]

Hi,

Due to the lack of AI / flyable HBs, is anyone interested in a mod for B25(AI) / B26(AI) to have something to escort / shoot down for strategic bomber escort / bomber intercept missions?

We have many typical german HB interceptor armament configurations, typical allied HB escort fighters and 2 western maps.

Modifications could be:

-reinforced armor protection.

-maybe improved heigh altitude performance / if possible / required?

(defensive armament with veteran / ace ai level seems to me sufficient / I will fly some test missions)

Modification of B25 / B26 should be possible because they are pure AI planes.

Edited November 29, 2023 by kraut1

[WitchyWoman]

Yes totally, it would make the ETO and even other user made theaters more accurate.

[Stonehouse]

Sounds good but I'm not sure it is achievable as it sounds. Far as I recall the armour definitions and performance type values for an aircraft are in the main aircraft text file - if you modify this the game will reject that file. I don't believe the game cares whether it's pure AI or flyable. 

[Vamandrac]

Sounds like a great idea!

[kraut1]

On 12/1/2023 at 2:56 AM, Stonehouse said:

Sounds good but I'm not sure it is achievable as it sounds. Far as I recall the armour definitions and performance type values for an aircraft are in the main aircraft text file - if you modify this the game will reject that file. I don't believe the game cares whether it's pure AI or flyable. 

From my experience with my Papua New Guinea Mod it is possible to change these parameters. The only restriction is, that after the change the plane will be a "only AI" plane. Example: I reduced the Armor of my FW190-A5 = Ki43 Oscar, FW190-A3 = Zero to ca. 1mm and this worked as long these plane were used as AI planes.

And for these planes I reduced some weights on the one hand and on the other hand I added (Air) drag to make them slower.

But it is not easy to check the results of the performance change.

 

Because the B25 and the B26 are already "only AI planes" I think it will work, at least the reinforcement of the armor plates.

I will make a test and will post it here.

Edited December 3, 2023 by kraut1

[Stonehouse]

12 minutes ago, kraut1 said:

Because the B25 and the B26 are already "only AI planes" I think it will work, at least the reinforcement of the armor plates.

I will make a test and will post it here.

Ok - That's good and I will be happy to have been mistaken. Fingers crossed you are correct.

[kraut1]

On 12/1/2023 at 1:47 AM, WitchyWoman said:

Yes totally, it would make the ETO and even other user made theaters more accurate.

 

8 hours ago, Vamandrac said:

Sounds like a great idea!

 

40 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

Ok - That's good and I will be happy to have been mistaken. Fingers crossed you are correct.

Here a first test, only to see if changes are accepted.

I worked on my computer with activated mods.

What I have seen is that the B25 armor plates are defined in a very simple way with only few parameters.

Even in the Extreme version of the mod only for B25 with all plates 30mm it is possible to shoot them down.

Another approach could be that the effect of the german 20mm mine shell is a bit overexaggerated.

In my 1940 BoF armament mods I inserted the russian 20mm grenade values into 20mm mine shell for the BF109-E3.

This worked too in the past.

The results of the tests of today were a bit unclear, everything to be overworked and tested.

Dummy-Heavy-Bomber-mod-v01.zip

Dummy-Heavy-Bomber-mod-v01extreme-protectection-only-B25-test.zip

1943_44-red-20mm-Mine-Shell-v01.zip

 

[WitchyWoman]

Awesome,

 

Since you are working on AI. Do you think you would be able to take a look at the Enemy AI in the game (Fighters and bombers) in the Flying Circus modules and decipher the problems of their very strange antisocial and un-aggressive behavior of ( weave and flee only) and figure out why they also continue to do this after you leave the area?  I would of embarked on this long ago but code is not my specialty. I would love for this to be rectified and I am sure everyone else would to.

 

The same issues existed in Rise Of Flight until VonS fixed it but because he doesn't own FC hes not able to take a look under the hood. He did say if the code is basically the same it could be pretty easy. It would be a game changer for FC for sure if it could be done.

Edited December 10, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[migmadmarine]

Would VonS be open to someone gifting him FC?

[Stonehouse]

On 12/10/2023 at 1:52 PM, WitchyWoman said:

ecipher the problems of their very strange antisocial and un-aggressive behavior

So the AI Gunnery mod doesn't address some of this issue in your view? Can you give some solid details of the issue that I might be able to investigate? I haven't seen non aggressive behaviour in the testing I do for a release of the mod. FC guns however don't do a lot of damage unless they hit something important - is that what you mean? or do you mean AI just doesn't engage?

 

FYI There is a high degree of commonality between VonS's work and AI Gunnery from what I saw last time I compared the two. It's not code per se either, the best we can do is tweak some of the parameters that feed into the code behind the game. 

[WitchyWoman]

Ever since I started playing FC (WW1 modules) Anytime you encounter enemy fighters or bombers, You engage and all the enemy does is enter steep turns back and fourth in an evading manner away from you and your wing men. They do not aggressively maneuver or try at all to engage you like is seen in the WW2 side of the game. Iv'e said this many times and members here and on Steam have confirmed the same problems in detail.

 

It makes it very easy for the player  (even a novice) to get on the tail of any enemy Ai controlled plane and send them into the ground. Also, after you disengage, Enemy flights still weave and turn and stay in the same area where you engage them long after you are miles away, they act as if they are still under attack. Its been  long standing issue in flying circus. The same kind of behavior existed in rise of flight until VonS released his AI mod which made them game much more enjoyable and made the enemy planes actually fight back. The issues lay in the way AI flies in combat and their tactics, being very docile, fleeing at the first encounter with the player and their allies, and not aggressive. Not in their skills at shooting accuracy.

 

Luke had said once that the team was aware of these problems but that they had no current resources and/or someone skilled to work on better AI mechanics. If you are  playing  flying circus in careers this  its immediately noticeable during aerial combat. The only real time I am shot at is during the first meeting of an enemy flight head on and if the AI gunner in 2 seater shoots back as you pursue them on their tail. These problems have made me shelve FC because as it is, its basically just a shooting gallery and it gets frustrating and boring very fast. Its very common for me to shoot down half a dozen or more planes in every mission.

 

I want to love the WW1 side of the IL-2 family but this problem seriously needs to be rectified, we are heading into the 3rd module and its still there.

 

If you feel your mod has improved this, I can try using your mod in WW1 mode and take a look. Ive only used your gunnery and AAA mod if WW2 (which I wont fly without) and see , if you did fix this then you deserve a job in the company.  ?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[Stonehouse]

52 minutes ago, WitchyWoman said:

If you feel your mod has improved this,

Ok all good. Yes the mod has been configured for WW1 as well as WW2. Moltke and others have given positive feedback, so fingers crossed it helps you.

[WitchyWoman]

Ok started a campaign fresh using realistic skill level (as always), dense population and no number advantage on either side.

 

Mods used

 

AAA

Ai expansion- AAA

AI Expansion WW1

AI Gunnery

AI Gunnery feb2beta24nov

FC skinpacks

 

Problems still persist. Was escorting german bombers along with my  flight of 5  DV's

 

I broke off to attack 2 British 2 seaters I saw heading South across our path in the rear, no aggression shown when I engaged.  In fact they didn't do much to even evade. Both planes were staying in formation and did a very wide turn. Shot down rear plane very quickly.

 

I then encountered 2 sopwith Triplanes that were slowing tailing my earlier flight I broke off from. I targeted the rear Triplane. Again very docile, no effort on the Ai's part to try to dogfight and get the upper hand. He enters the common "weave and bank in right turns" problem and I shoot him down. This is all too familiar behavior. The lead wingman did not even try to help his comrade he just kept flying ahead. The only thing enemy ai is good at is formation flying from point to point, thats it.

 

The only real danger it seemed was the flak as my machine kept vibrating from close flak bursts which was awesome but our problem is enemy aircraft not putting up a fight. Good job on the AA btw.

 

If I were in the situation in "wings over flaunders fields", this fight would be a challenge and Id be constantly checking my butt because of how good Ai is in that game but not in FC. Whats weird is its not like this in the IL-2 GB WW2 modules. They have good skill but in FC its completely different. They don't even try to fight. They just flee. At this point i exited the game to report back here. Its frustrating.

 

I do use panthers career updates but for this test I turned those off. I have also tried this without AI expansion packs and the problem is still there. Its there without mods as well.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[Stonehouse]

5 hours ago, WitchyWoman said:

Ai expansion- AAA

AI Expansion WW1

AI Gunnery

AI Gunnery feb2beta24nov

 

Ok so few things.

 

First:

Spoiler

AI Gunnery

AI Gunnery feb2beta24nov

 

Just use the latest AI Gunnery. The beta is superseded by the release I uploaded Dec 2.

 

Second:

I'm assuming you are using JSGME or similar. Load order is very important.

 

I've no idea what the two mods AI expansion AAA and AI expansion WW1 do nor what files they touch.

 

For the sake of experiment, I would leave those unloaded and just try AI Gunnery.........or at the very least ensure that my AAA mod and my AI Gunnery mod are the last mods loaded. In terms of clashes between mods and JSGME the last mod loaded is the one used. If my mods are not loaded last, then potentially you are overriding them with other mods and so not seeing them in action.

 

I'll try to find some time to have a go at a WW1 career and see what it goes like. I usually use QMB test cases to check my mods as they are very repeatable - there I'm not seeing a lack of aggression although I don't do much WW1 so I haven't done a career for instance.

 

If you have the campaign mission still (should be the _gen.mission in IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles\data\Missions if you haven't advanced to the next mission or flown a different campaign or AQMB/QMB mission) perhaps zip it up and attach it here. If it is a scripted campaign that you are doing (ie not a career) then possibly the mission design is assigning waypoint priorities or doing something to the AI that prevents them from doing much. If this is the case and you can tell me the scripted campaign, I may be able to access the mission file if I ungtp the right gtp file.  

 

I'd like to try to replicate what you are talking about but ideally it needs a copy of the mission to do so.

 

Probably we should shift this to the AI Gunnery thread to avoid clogging up Kraut1's dummy AI bomber discussion. 

[kraut1]

16 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

 

 

 

Probably we should shift this to the AI Gunnery thread to avoid clogging up Kraut1's dummy AI bomber discussion. 

 

5 hours ago, WitchyWoman said:

Ok started a campaign fresh using realistic skill level (as always), dense population and no number advantage on either side.

 

Mods used

 

AAA

Ai expansion- AAA

AI Expansion WW1

AI Gunnery

AI Gunnery feb2beta24nov

FC skinpacks

 

Problems still persist. Was escorting german bombers along with my  flight of 5  DV's

 

I broke off to attack 2 British 2 seaters I saw heading South across our path in the rear, no aggression shown when I engaged.  In fact they didn't do much to even evade. Both planes were staying in formation and did a very wide turn. Shot down rear plane very quickly.

 

 

 

 

Hi, from my point of view no problem if you discuss fighter AI and AI gunnery topics in this thread because all issues are in some respect related to each other:

-my dummy AI bomber mods: the plane files in the worldobjects/planes folder

-my 1943_44-red-20mm-Mine-Shell mod: worldobjects/explosions folder

-Gunnery Mod I suppose in first line ai, bots and turrets folders

so it is still sufficiently seperated.

 

Concerning not aggressive fighter AI in respect of WW2 Easy Mission Generator by Vander Missions:

-Interceptors are in general dangerous and aggressive

-Escort fighters are aggressive against bomber attacking interceptors, but they do not react, if they are attacked by the cover flight of the interceptors.

Because of that I am currently testing "COVER" priority low instead of high.

-And to make them more aggressive I am making some tests with in the ai file with increased

AttackDistance    = xxx
EngageDistance    = xxx

This would interfere with AI Gunnery mod, but for me no problem, it is only for testing.

I suppose during the next month I will not work on this mod, I am currently testing my drafts for the new Easy Mission Generator Normandy fronts.

 

 

[Stonehouse]

10 hours ago, kraut1 said:

And to make them more aggressive I am making some tests with in the ai file with increased

AttackDistance    = xxx
EngageDistance    = xxx

Interesting. I'd left those alone as they increase rapidly with skill. Ace is 2000/3000 respectively. Novice is 500/1500. I'd kind of thought they were appropriate as I'd figured novice pilots would be less likely to initiate combat unless they had to due to fear or lack of confidence. IE they would be focused more on simple survival. I'll have to do some experiments as I know there is another patch relatively soon and maybe they should be increased. 

 

One thing to keep in mind though - waypoint priority etc sits over the top of all this AI. For example, it doesn't matter what changes we make to increase aggression if the mission builder sets the AI to ignore threats enroute to a waypoint. I know Pat had issues with this in PWCG for bombers and even fighters at times and struggled to get the AI to work reliably.

[kraut1]

5 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

 

One thing to keep in mind though - waypoint priority etc sits over the top of all this AI. For example, it doesn't matter what changes we make to increase aggression if the mission builder sets the AI to ignore threats enroute to a waypoint. I know Pat had issues with this in PWCG for bombers and even fighters at times and struggled to get the AI to work reliably.

Yes, because of this I like Easy Mission Generator very much. In this mission generator we have the possibility to change and test some pre-defined waypoint settings and many other settings in the generic template.

E.g. in

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/86433-issue-solved-bomber-gunners-do-not-open-fire-independently-they-wait-until-first-bomber-is-shot-down/

I changed in my EMG Nederland mod (in first line for axis intercept missions) bomber wp settings to medium to make the bomber gunners to fire at all intercept fighters from the beginning of the first attack. (disadvantage a more open formation) / this change I have currently not released.

And each modified setting in the generic template is in future automaticly considered in each generated mission.