BFM: Tactical question about "vertical scisors"

[Youtch]

Dear all,

 

I ran several times into a situation that I don t know how to resolve, and I would greatly appreciate some guidance from the veterans fighters of our community on how to handle this type of situation.

 

I call it "vertical scisors" (nothing to do with rolling scisors).

 

I have logged thousands of hours of combat in IL2, and reached a decent level, where I don t die very often anymore and get a good ratio of kills on Combat box, but I feel that I am far from being where I would like to be and there is still a lot for me to learn.

 

This is the scenario:

1. Arriving at the 6 of a bandit with more energy than the bandit (either after pursuit or after a boom in a boom&zoom tactic)

2. Bandit check its 6 and detect the threat and trigger a tight turn on one side

3. I react by going immediately hi yoyo

4. Bandit is smart and detect the hi yoyo move and fake the turn continuing instead on a straight line to gain speed and negate the advantage of the hi yo yo

So far all nornal and almost a by-the-book BFM as per Air Combat library on hi yo yo defense.

 

 

Now as a result of all this, I usually end up above the bandit and a little bit behind, but with not enough room to do another proper boom&zoom pass and be able to guaranteee a good spot behind its 6.

1st question: What do you recommend to do in this specific situation to remain on the offensive?

 

What I usually do (which is surely a mistake) is to go down to converge with the bandit aiming to take a snapshot.

What is usually happening is as I go down the bandit goes up, and this is where we end up in a situation that I call "vertical scisors".

It can either happen as I didn t realize the bandit was already going up before deciding to go down, or the bandit goes up as soon as he/she sees me going down.

 

Curiously it is a situation that happens quite often against AI and against real players as well.

Please note that there is no horizontal component in the situation I am describing, it is NOT a rolling scissor, all is happening in a vertical plane here.

 

2nd question: If you are above and slightly behind and detect a bandit going up toward you, what is your best move to remain on offensive?

I would be tempted to say it is to turn and climb to create an energy trap, but there might be other tactics.

 

3rd question:  If I am caught in a situation where I am going down while the bandit is going up. How can I prevent this to lead to a reversal and remain on the offensive?

 

Upon detecting the situation of bandit going up, if I correct going up, what usually happens is that the bandit going up will end up almost systematically with a reversal situation and opportunity for a snapshot (as for the tighter turn going up, compared to going down).

Of course there is always the alternative to put an end to the fight and evade, but my question here is how to remain on the offensive.
 

 

Many thanks in advance for providing some insights to this tactical topics.

y. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

2nd question: If you are above and slightly behind and detect a bandit going up toward you, what is your best move to remain on offensive?

I would be tempted to say it is to turn and climb to create an energy trap, but there might be other tactics.

I think if you're slightly behind, you can close the gap by descending when he climb since his exchanging kinetic energy meke him slower and giving you better chance to attack. So I think fast reaction, energy management to that enemy manuver might results you  register a hit on the bandit.

 

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

3rd question:  If I am caught in a situation where I am going down while the bandit is going up. How can I prevent this to lead to a reversal and remain on the offensive?

 

I presume  made a lead turn and  end up in guns renge . 

[Dr_Molem]

It depends a lot on the planes involved.

[[CPT]Crunch]

If your coming in with a blazing hair on fire advantage, you've got to be asking yourself why are they always detecting you in the first place?  Here's a tip, approach from a blind spot or angle, and most important of all, cut your engine the last 2 to 300 yards, you won't lose significant speed, and they can't hear your approach.  I prefer to come up from directly underneath looking straight up at the targeted plane, he can be check turning all he wants and will never see whats lurking till it's too late.  Chopping the engine works perfect on the pop up when you have the speed advantage, he won't know which way to turn fast enough when the pieces are falling off.  Why be taking those high risk shots with such extreme speed differentials?  The greater the speed differential, the lower your odds of connecting, and most of us are simply not that good.  I'd wager that even those who are that good at gunnery don't rely on high speed angle off as their bread and butter go to choice.

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

If your coming in with a blazing hair on fire advantage, you've got to be asking yourself why are they always detecting you in the first place?  Here's a tip, approach from a blind spot or angle, and most important of all, cut your engine the last 2 to 300 yards, you won't lose significant speed, and they can't hear your approach.  I prefer to come up from directly underneath looking straight up at the targeted plane, he can be check turning all he wants and will never see whats lurking till it's too late.  Chopping the engine works perfect on the pop up when you have the speed advantage, he won't know which way to turn fast enough when the pieces are falling off.  Why be taking those high risk shots with such extreme speed differentials?  The greater the speed differential, the lower your odds of connecting, and most of us are simply not that good.  I'd wager that even those who are that good at gunnery don't rely on high speed angle off as their bread and butter go to choice.

This is what i usually do, but AI does not seem to care so much about blind spot, and here i was in pursuit for a long time, no way he would not see me coming.

1 hour ago, Dr_Molem said:

It depends a lot on the planes involved.

Last time it happened i was flying Bf109-G6 Late and the bandit was a Typhoon

[=475FG=_DAWGER]

On 11/27/2023 at 4:15 AM, Youtch said:

Dear all,

 

I ran several times into a situation that I don t know how to resolve, and I would greatly appreciate some guidance from the veterans fighters of our community on how to handle this type of situation.

 

I call it "vertical scisors" (nothing to do with rolling scisors).

 

I have logged thousands of hours of combat in IL2, and reached a decent level, where I don t die very often anymore and get a good ratio of kills on Combat box, but I feel that I am far from being where I would like to be and there is still a lot for me to learn.

 

This is the scenario:

1. Arriving at the 6 of a bandit with more energy than the bandit (either after pursuit or after a boom in a boom&zoom tactic)

2. Bandit check its 6 and detect the threat and trigger a tight turn on one side

3. I react by going immediately hi yoyo

4. Bandit is smart and detect the hi yoyo move and fake the turn continuing instead on a straight line to gain speed and negate the advantage of the hi yo yo

So far all nornal and almost a by-the-book BFM as per Air Combat library on hi yo yo defense.

 

 

Now as a result of all this, I usually end up above the bandit and a little bit behind, but with not enough room to do another proper boom&zoom pass and be able to guaranteee a good spot behind its 6.

1st question: What do you recommend to do in this specific situation to remain on the offensive?

 

What I usually do (which is surely a mistake) is to go down to converge with the bandit aiming to take a snapshot.

What is usually happening is as I go down the bandit goes up, and this is where we end up in a situation that I call "vertical scisors".

It can either happen as I didn t realize the bandit was already going up before deciding to go down, or the bandit goes up as soon as he/she sees me going down.

 

Curiously it is a situation that happens quite often against AI and against real players as well.

Please note that there is no horizontal component in the situation I am describing, it is NOT a rolling scissor, all is happening in a vertical plane here.

 

2nd question: If you are above and slightly behind and detect a bandit going up toward you, what is your best move to remain on offensive?

I would be tempted to say it is to turn and climb to create an energy trap, but there might be other tactics.

 

3rd question:  If I am caught in a situation where I am going down while the bandit is going up. How can I prevent this to lead to a reversal and remain on the offensive?

 

Upon detecting the situation of bandit going up, if I correct going up, what usually happens is that the bandit going up will end up almost systematically with a reversal situation and opportunity for a snapshot (as for the tighter turn going up, compared to going down).

Of course there is always the alternative to put an end to the fight and evade, but my question here is how to remain on the offensive.
 

 

Many thanks in advance for providing some insights to this tactical topics.

y. 

It sounds like you are not controlling your closure rate. There are a few stages to offensive BFM. The first is to arrive on the bandit turn circle using pursuit curves. Lead and pure pursuit increase closure and aspect while lag pursuit decreases both. Once you arrive on the bandit turn circle, you stay there using follow on BFM, the high Yo Yo being an example of follow on BFM.

 

If the bandit is breaking as you close and then reversing his bank angle to go nose high, he is initiating a classic lag roll reversal which you aren't recognizing. 

 

Here is a little tacview film on lag roll reversals I made some time ago.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by =475FG=_DAWGER

[Youtch]

47 minutes ago, =475FG=_DAWGER said:

If the bandit is breaking as you close and then reversing his bank angle to go nose high, he is initiating a classic lag roll reversal which you aren't recognizing. 

Many thanks for your explanation.

 

How do you detect at an early stagethis lag roll reversal (beside the intial break) and how do you counter it?

[=475FG=_DAWGER]

19 hours ago, Youtch said:

Many thanks for your explanation.

 

How do you detect at an early stagethis lag roll reversal (beside the intial break) and how do you counter it?

A lag roll reversal is only effective against a flight path overshoot. You have to have excess closure on the bandit for him to be able to force the overshoot and execute the reversal. Control that closure and you take away the reversal. Your first instinct of a high Yo Yo is correct. If you are coming in at the speed of heat and the bandit breaks, you have a few choices.

 

1. If you are already on or near his turn circle, a nose high lag maneuver (high Yo Yo) will slow the closure as will just dropping into lag pursuit but usually some sort of nose high lag like the high Yo Yo is ideal. It may have to be very aggressive if the closure is very high or the bandit has very good turn performance (small circle). What happens next depends on the bandit reaction and he has three basic choices but once you kill the closure and arrive on his turn circle, you will force him to react.

 

2. If he breaks before you are on or near his circle, there are a couple of things to do. If he can get his nose all the way around before you merge, treat it as a merge (create turning room and execute lead turn). Don't just take the head on pass if he can get a guns solution. If he can't get guns on you, you can take the high angle snapshot and blow through, or lead turn him as in a normal merge and grab a shit ton of angles at the merge.

Edited December 6, 2023 by =475FG=_DAWGER

[No.23_TaxDollarsAtWork]

It sounds like you need to create turning room and time to get a decent shot, the yo yo is good initial counter but as he comes back into you with his reversal thats an energy excursion.

 

You can close the space into him while pulling up almost vertically then roll down from the top

 and this should give you room to shoot him

[Youtch]

 

Many thanks for all these tactical insights, I miss this type of discussion on the forum!

 

 

16 minutes ago, No.23_TaxDollarsAtWork said:

but as he comes back into you with his reversal thats an energy excursion.

I am not familiar with the concept of energy excursion. Could you please define it?

 

16 minutes ago, No.23_TaxDollarsAtWork said:

You can close the space into him while pulling up almost vertically then roll down from the top

The problem I face is the time required to go back up, if I was already going down (as for the descending phase of the high yoyo).

 

If I detect soon enough he is doing a reversal or going up, then I can safely stay up and turn, and go even higher to energy trap him.

 

-------

 

1 hour ago, =475FG=_DAWGER said:

What happens next depends on the bandit reaction and he has three basic choices but once you kill the closure and arrive on his turn circle, you will force him to react.

 

What would be the 3 reactions you refered to? I am assuming that one of them is the reversal, another is probably the high yo-yo defence as described in the video below:

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Youtch

[=475FG=_DAWGER]

2 hours ago, Youtch said:

 

Many thanks for all these tactical insights, I miss this type of discussion on the forum!

 

 

I am not familiar with the concept of energy excursion. Could you please define it?

 

The problem I face is the time required to go back up, if I was already going down (as for the descending phase of the high yoyo).

 

If I detect soon enough he is doing a reversal or going up, then I can safely stay up and turn, and go even higher to energy trap him.

 

-------

 

 

What would be the 3 reactions you refered to? I am assuming that one of them is the reversal, another is probably the high yo-yo defence as described in the video below:

 

 

In the video you posted the offensive bandit isn't really on the defensive fighter turn circle  for much of that video, as evidenced by the defensive fighter's ability to get his nose around on the offensive fighter. The high Yo Yo's are too aggressive, too early or both. The video isn't really relevant to this discussion.

 

All defensive guns BFM is focused on two things and only two things. Spoil the shot and create a flight path overshoot.

 

Once you are on the bandit turn circle, he has to evaluate your energy state and react appropriately.

 

1. If there is high closure and increasing aspect as the offensive fighter is pulling for a shot, a lag roll reversal opportunity is there, which is both an effective guns jink and exploit of the resulting overshoot.

 

2. If the closure is low or negative, the defensive fighter can relax his G and extend or keep the offensive fighter out of guns range while rebuilding potential energy, basically what was demonstrated in the video you posted.

 

3. If the offensive fighter has properly controlled his closure and aspect, he will be arriving in the control zone for a tracking guns shot. In this situation, the defensive fighter has to create an overshoot as quickly as possible. If altitude is available, a split S is the most effective choice. Without altitude, a maximum deceleration flat scissors is required. An effective flat scissors requires a high level of skill and timing and you still will be exposed to snapshots until you force the overshoot. Wandering back and forth in front of the bandit is NOT a flat scissors.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by =475FG=_DAWGER

[Youtch]

32 minutes ago, =475FG=_DAWGER said:

Without altitude, a maximum deceleration flat scissors is required. An effective flat scissors requires a high level of skill and timing and you still will be exposed to snapshots until you force the overshoot. Wandering back and forth in front of the bandit is NOT a flat scissors

Has rolling scisor any benefit over flat scisor in this situation? Does it depends on the type of plane? I understand that by scisor you mean to bleed as much energy as possible to force an overshoot.

 

33 minutes ago, =475FG=_DAWGER said:

a lag roll reversal opportunity is there, which is both an effective guns jink and exploit of the resulting overshoot.

How do you suggest to counter a lag roll when you were the pilot on the offensive initially?

 

Many thanks again

[=475FG=_DAWGER]

43 minutes ago, Youtch said:

Has rolling scisor any benefit over flat scisor in this situation? Does it depends on the type of plane? I understand that by scisor you mean to bleed as much energy as possible to force an overshoot.

 

How do you suggest to counter a lag roll when you were the pilot on the offensive initially?

 

Many thanks again

Its best not to try to compartmentalize BFM into named maneuvers and then to apply those named maneuvers in certain situations.

 

There are only two maneuvers in all of BFM, the roll and the pull. That is it. Everything is built on those two basic things.

 

You manage your lift vector and velocity vector using rolls and pulls. Knowing where to put your lift vector is the key to all BFM and once you put it there all you have to do is pull to get your velocity vector there.

 

Maneuvers have names for convenience of discussion but they really aren't separate entities in a fight.

 

Its a lot easier to say "High Yo Yo" than it is to say " I rolled my lift vector to high lag, pulled the velocity vector out of plane, rolled the lift vector into lead and pulled the velocity vector to lead"

 

Always react to what the bandit is doing. If you start a High Yo Yo and the bandit reverses his turn you are going to continue your roll to put your lift vector back into lead pursuit. This is called a lag displacement roll  for convenience but it started life as a high yo yo and then morphed into a lag displacement roll due to the bandit's actions.

 

---------

 

A flat scissors as  a defensive maneuver is the following: 

 

1. Maximum deceleration. This means throttles to idle, flaps out on speed

2. Maneuver out of phase to the enemy behind you. This means doing your best to keep your lift vector 180 degrees out of phase from his.

 

A flat scissors is only done if you have no altitude to do something else, because almost anything else using altitude below you will be a better choice (See Split S).

 

A flat scissors is essentially a series of defensive break turns while decelerating. As such, it is going to be very short lived, as you will quickly run out of airspeed and you already are out of altitude. The bandit will either overshoot, stall or kill you. You may also kill yourself from the  very likely to result accelerated stall.

 

A rolling scissors is what results when a lag roll reversal is not successful or is successfully countered. You see you have overshot and the bandit has lag rolled back into you and you need to keep him on or in front of your 3-9 line so you put your lift vector on or slightly behind the bandit and keep it there. He will be doing the same thing if he has a clue. The result is two aircraft both using lift vector management to try to make the other guy squirt out in front. The guy who wins the rolling scissors is generally the one who gets the nose highest on the upward side of the roller

Edited December 6, 2023 by =475FG=_DAWGER