AA emplacement

[Stonehouse]

I'm ok with the mission items needed to spawn an AA gun when an enemy aircraft gets within a trigger distance and despawn when further away, but I have a sandbag emplacement and other blocks around the gun which basically appear at mission start.

 

Is there a way to tie the static blocks making up the emplacement to the spawn/despawn of the gun so the props making up the emplacement despawn when the gun despawns and spawn when the gun spawns? 

 

 

 

[jollyjack]

I tried that before, and couldn't figure it out. And you're the AA expert LoL? 

Jim's manual only talks about spawning objects that have to prepared as 'enabled'.

You can set Linked Entry blocks, but there's no enable function, you can only activate them via prox and CZ MCUs IMO, but they are there before activation.

Maybe some 100% destroyed-damaged trick? Sketch might know ...

Edited November 7, 2023 by jollyjack

[Stonehouse]

Yeah, I'm nowhere near an IL2 mission editor guru but. The opposite if anything but I just can't see how it can be done. Trying to build new EMG templates with closer to historical AAA compositions but I noticed the sandbags and other props appear empty at the mission start and then when the aircraft trigger the AAA then the guns appear in the empty emplacements. The immersion break is just jarring. I wonder if you can make the guns also appear at mission start but without AI until triggered. I know I can do that in DCS.......so it's like a static until triggered and then the AI switches on.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

54 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

I wonder if you can make the guns also appear at mission start but without AI until triggered.

Ok weird...........Reading the manual, it sounds like the enable tick box is what I am looking for.........if ticked then the object should be there from mission start but via activate and deactivate triggers you control the switching on or off of the AI behind the object. Vander uses activate and deactivate triggers linked to a "close" and "away" MCU check range trigger as described on pg 274 of the editor manual. However, stock EMG leaves the enabled box unchecked. If I check the box on the generic template then the EMG mission build should import the AAA composition as defined in the generic template but I don't see the AA guns on mission start..........so I assume EMG is dropping the enabled bit on import. Maybe it's a Vander question.....................ahh no Vander uses a spawner/delete triggers not an activate/deactivate triggers....................I wonder

 

Maybe many spawned in and deactivated objects consume more resources than objects that spawn and despawn. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Stonehouse

[jollyjack]

LOL, i am just starting in DCS' ME and miss that grouping feature of IL2, now messing with renaming the 'theatre' StaticTemplate stm files for map transfers ...

Infact about Flak setup transfers.

 

For Il2 ..

If you could spawn and de-spawn whole groups as such would be a great feature, but probably using too much PC computing power during a mission causing hiccups..

[IckyATLAS]

Objects cannot be spawned, deactivated, activated or deleted. They stay where they have been set. 

 

They can be destroyed and some small objects once destroyed do indeed disappear visually. You can make them reappear on the same spot by fully repairing them.

But otherwise destroying always leaves a trace. 

 

This possibility was asked ages ago but devs never replied nor did anything about it. It is part of the things that I have never understood. Like limiting bomb craters to four only when you have a bombing raid, and the list goes on and on.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by IckyATLAS

[jollyjack]

Yep, and my (wish-) list for DCS is even worse  ....

[Stonehouse]

7 hours ago, jollyjack said:

i am just starting in DCS' ME

Biggest difference that comes to mind is the ability to call external lua scripts. I built a (lol do you see a theme here) virtual flak script for DCS some years ago using that feature. Basically spawned mid air explosions around aircraft.

 

Not sure if it still works but for your amusement WW2 style simulated heavy flak (DCS 1.5.2/2.0 compatible) (digitalcombatsimulator.com)

Edited November 7, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Jaegermeister]

15 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

... I noticed the sandbags and other props appear empty at the mission start and then when the aircraft trigger the AAA then the guns appear in the empty emplacements. The immersion break is just jarring. 

 

I don't see how there would be any jarring immersion breakage when AAA spawns well outside of visual range...

 

15 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

 I wonder if you can make the guns also appear at mission start but without AI until triggered. 

 

No

 

18 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Is there a way to tie the static blocks making up the emplacement to the spawn/despawn of the gun so the props making up the emplacement despawn when the gun despawns and spawn when the gun spawns? 

 

No

 

14 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Reading the manual, it sounds like the enable tick box is what I am looking for.........if ticked then the object should be there from mission start but via activate and deactivate triggers you control the switching on or off of the AI behind the object. Vander uses activate and deactivate triggers linked to a "close" and "away" MCU check range trigger as described on pg 274 of the editor manual. However, stock EMG leaves the enabled box unchecked. 

 

Not exactly. If you check the "enabled" box, deactivating the linked object has no effect except to cause time distortion if you have enough CheckZones trying to deactivate enabled objects. If it is enabled, the object will stay in place even if it is deactivated.

 

14 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Maybe many spawned in and deactivated objects consume more resources than objects that spawn and despawn. 

 

There is no despawn MCU. A spawned object that is deactivated stays in memory and uses resources. If you spawn an object and then delete it with a FURTHER CheckZone, it goes away and takes no resources other than the reactivated CLOSER CheckZone, if you have one.

 

12 hours ago, jollyjack said:

If you could spawn and de-spawn whole groups as such would be a great feature, but probably using too much PC computing power during a mission causing hiccups..

 

You can, you just have to object link each one separately to the same Spawn / Delete MCUs. That actually uses less computing power during a mission because you are only using 1 CheckZone instead of one for each object

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Jaegermeister

[Gambit21]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:54 PM, Stonehouse said:

Biggest difference that comes to mind is the ability to call external lua scripts. I built a (lol do you see a theme here) virtual flak script for DCS some years ago using that feature. Basically spawned mid air explosions around aircraft.

 

Not sure if it still works but for your amusement WW2 style simulated heavy flak (DCS 1.5.2/2.0 compatible) (digitalcombatsimulator.com)

There are some huge differences.

The ability to drag select, copy/paste is absent in DCS…which is a huge PITA.

 

DCS has a much better, and more complete set of triggers…

 

…but only 1 smoke object.

 

In DCS you can tell any aircraft to follow/join any other aircraft. This is sorely missing in IL2.

 

Logic in IL2 is more stable once layed down…in DCS basic things like ‘stop’ logic breaks. 

 

It’s give and take.

All in all there are arguments to stick with or abandon both.

[Stonehouse]

3 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

The ability to drag select, copy/paste is absent in DCS…which is a huge PITA

It's been quite a while, but I thought that was in DCS as an undocumented feature. Very clunky though.

 

Anyway, yes, you're right, I'd forgotten things like the advanced commands, close and distant formations too if I recall right.

[IckyATLAS]

On 11/8/2023 at 2:54 AM, Jaegermeister said:

You can, you just have to object link each one separately to the same Spawn / Delete MCUs. That actually uses less computing power during a mission because you are only using 1 CheckZone instead of one for each object

In my missions as an example for here is how AAA artillery defending a given airfield is managed:

 

1) Each Artillery unit can be a group that is composed by blocks like sandbags and ammunition crates and whatever other type of blocks that are relevant to that artillery piece. In this way I have a group that correspond to a complete AAA artillery piece with its related blocks that can then be replicated. Sometimes the AAA unit is a vehicle like the Gaz 72K and has no blocks related to it, in which case it is just an object and not a group.

 

2) There is a Fake_Vehicle that has its Vulnerable and Engageable parameter boxes unticked. This means that the Fake_Vehicle is active but not visible and cannot be destroyed. This fake vehicle is set somewhere out of the airfield area in a place that is not relevant.

 

3) All the AAA artillery pieces, of wahtever type are target linked to this fake vehicle. This fake vehicle will be the Leader of all the AAA units and will transmit the commands to all the AAA units connected to it.

 

4) The Fake_Vehicle and all the AAA groups and units are inside an Airfield AAA Artillery Group.

 

5) I have also an AAA control group, that contains all the logic that is relevant to all the Airfield AAA units. It contains the Check_Zone MCUs for the Player Plane but also for the enemies, Activate and Deactivate MCU, Force Complete MCUs, Timers etc.  that will activate and deactivate the AAA units when the Player Plane in closer than a certain distance or farther than a certain distance, same for enemies, or set all AAA units in an Alert Status that make them very reactive and firing like hell or slower and lower firing rate, or simply non firing at all. It will also react to enemy planes that enter its firing range etc. All this logic transmits the orders through object links to the Fake_Vehicle which then will immediately distribute it to all the AAA units on the airfield that can be as many as ten or more as an example.

 

6) Finally the AAA Control Group and the Airfield AAA Artillery Group are grouped together into the main Airfield AAA Group.

 

Between the Control group and the Airfield AAA group you always have a few object links to one object the Fake_Vehicle. This makes the legibility and editing of very complex maps much easier. 

 

The main Airfield AAA Group is a completely functional system with all the logic and needs only TWO object links from this group to the Player Plane. That's all. Enemy planes are managed by the Check_Zone Internal Parameters no links necessary here.

 

In this way you have a very large flexibility when creating AAA defenses on the various Airfields. 

 

Once you have built this once, you can then duplicate a complete airfield AAA defense system in a few clicks. Then you have to position the units to adapt to the new Airfield and make some changes maybe on AAA unit types here and there, but say in 15- 30 minutes work you have all of it functional and working.

 

Again the naming of all these things has to be carefully made so that it becomes a no brainer to work with them.

 

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, IckyATLAS said:

In my missions as an example f

Thank you for the detailed description. I'll be bookmarking it for my own missions. However, the reason for my original post was that I am changing the EMG generic template to have more detailed and correct AAA battery compositions, so I'm limited to how Vander has set things up to a large degree. 

[Jaegermeister]

8 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

In my missions as an example for here is how AAA artillery defending a given airfield is managed: 

...

It contains the Check_Zone MCUs for the Player Plane but also for the enemies, Activate and Deactivate MCU, Force Complete MCUs, Timers etc. 

...

The main Airfield AAA Group is a completely functional system with all the logic and needs only TWO object links from this group to the Player Plane. That's all. Enemy planes are managed by the Check_Zone Internal Parameters no links necessary here.

 

 

Hopefully you are not using both an object link to the player and an internal enemy aircraft detection setting at the same time as this causes significant time distortion as it tries to sort out what to do...

 

Since I became aware that activated and deactivated linked entities stay in memory and use CPU resources, I have changed my logic groups to spawn and delete instead of activate and deactivate. In this case, I simply object link each gun or vehicle to the spawn and delete MCUs which are triggered by CLOSER and FURTHER check zones to the player or relevant flight leader. Once created and saved as a group, the whole Airfield AAA or Artillery battery or whatever can be placed, arranged, and linked with 2 check zones, similar to how you described above.

[IckyATLAS]

19 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

Hopefully you are not using both an object link to the player and an internal enemy aircraft detection setting at the same time as this causes significant time distortion as it tries to sort out what to do...

Not at all. These are completely separate and there is a logic to manage when there is both the player and an enemy or only the player or only the enemy in the AAA airspace range:

Enemy only AAA is active and Firing.

Player only AAA is active (so visually you see them) and are Silent.

Player and Enemy AAA is active and Firing to the enemy.

Nobody AAA is deactivated and so visually unseen.

 

For Static Ships it will be Spawn and Delete that will be used.

For dynamic stuff then it will be Activate and Deactivate, so that position is not lost. The only drawback here for objects in motion like trains, ships is that they will not keep the speed and so have to start from zero to the speed they had at first. 

 

Depending on the mission scenario, when the enemy is expected like an enemy bombing raid that has been detected far away and that the airfield or city defenses have been alerted then AAA is on Stand-By which means they will react more quickly when the Bombers are in range. 

If it is an unforeseen attack from an enemy then the AAA has to move from a Silent to Fully active. This is longer as AAA pieces must activate and start to move to the right direction and then fire. These three states are made using Force Complete.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by IckyATLAS

[Jaegermeister]

3 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

.... The only drawback here for objects in motion like trains, ships is that they will not keep the speed and so have to start from zero to the speed they had at first. 

 

Also trains and truck convoys reactivate going in the opposite direction, not sure about ships. I would imagine it is the same for them.

 

3 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

If it is an unforeseen attack from an enemy then the AAA has to move from a Silent to Fully active. This is longer as AAA pieces must activate and start to move to the right direction and then fire.

 

If you spawn and delete them instead, you can check "spawn at me" and not have that issue. Also I have found that no Attack area with simply a Force Complete - Low allows them to fire at a greater range because they are only limited by their maximum range. 

[Gambit21]

12 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

If you spawn and delete them instead, you can check "spawn at me" and not have that issue. Also I have found that no Attack area with simply a Force Complete - Low allows them to fire at a greater range because they are only limited by their maximum range. 

 

The problem I saw after much 88mm testing with the C-47 mission, once they acquire a target, they waste a lot of time before finally taking a shot, and between shots moving about/panning around. It makes it impossible to get a decent barrage going without placing a silly number of guns.

[IckyATLAS]

On 11/29/2023 at 1:32 PM, Jaegermeister said:

f you spawn and delete them instead, you can check "spawn at me" and not have that issue. Also I have found that no Attack area with simply a Force Complete - Low allows them to fire at a greater range because they are only limited by their maximum range. 

The first part of the sentence "spawn at me" is not clear to me. I delete and then spawn the whole group of ships.

"spawn at me " will make the object spawn where the MCU is on the map.

Static Ships means they will stay where they are for the whole mission. They never move from their position. "Spawn at me" would be fine for one unique static ship. But I Spawn and Delete 5 or 10 or more ships in one shot so "spawn at me" will not work.

 

Regarding the range issue you are right, maximum range remains the limitation but they will start moving immediately and fire early and at a higher rate.

[Jaegermeister]

Yeah, I wasn't referring to groups of ships, just individual AA guns. They will be facing whatever direction you specify with the yellow pointer and spawn wherever the MCU is placed. If it's a moving convoy of ships or vehicles, that's not an option as you already know. You could always just set the attack area to something like 10,000 meters and the end result would be the same.

 

Different ways to skin the same cat.