Quest3 vs. Index: Through the lens pictures

[chiliwili69]

As usual I need to do this in order to decide which should I keep.

 

QuestLink settings: 72Hz, SteamVR at 180%SS, this is 2768x3004 per eye, so 16.6 Million pixels. This is the limit to mantain 72fps in a 3080.

Index: 80Hz, SteamVR at 180%SS as well, this is 2704x3004 per eye, so 16.2 Million pixels. It is as well in the very limit for my 3080.

 

 

 

[chiliwili69]

All the original jpg files from the camera can be downloaded from here.

 

This is the Index:

 

And this is the Quest3:

[chiliwili69]

Well, I am here again, with the "painful" process to decide which one should I keep. I don´t want to have more than one device at home.

 

The Index and the Quest3 are two very different devices in all senses:

 

Age: Index was released mopre than 4 years ago! (June-2019), and Quest3 just few days ago.

Panel resolution per eye: Index is 1440x1600 (total 4.6 Million pixels) and Quest3 is 2064x2208 (9.1 Million pixels, almost double)

Lenses: Index uses fresnel lenses and Quest uses pancake. Both are quite good, giving clear image from edge to edge. Quest 3 has less light on the edges.

Tracking: Index tracking is perfect for IL-2 with just one base station, Quest3 is inside-out and very good but need some light.

FOV: Index FOV is larger than Quest3, vertically and horizontally. Not a huge difference but noticeable.

Video: Index uses a DP cable to the PC with the video output of the GPU, Quest3 uses a compressed/decompressed image either with USB cable or wireless.

Comfort: Index (with my mod) is more comfortable than the Quest3. The Quest3 is still front heavy (WHY THEY DON¨T PUT BATERY IN THE BACK SIDE!!!, like Pico4!).

Audio: Index audio is quite good for what it is, but the Quest3 has also better than expected, but worse than Index.

Performance: Both require a similar GPU load for the same number of pixels rendered, both provide an smooth and fluid experience.

Visual detail: The Quest3 gives more detail on the images as shown above.

 

I really don´t know what to do. I will need more hours on both to compare.

[Alonzo]

42 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

I really don´t know what to do. I will need more hours on both to compare.

 

The other question is if you can get any extra utility from the Quest 3 as a standalone headset. Ignoring for a moment the Meta/Facebook problems, it's quite a capable Mixed Reality device, and quite a capable non-tethered VR console. For me I'm upgrading (side-grading?) from a Reverb G2 and the standalone and MR features seem interesting and worth something.

[dburne]

3 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

 

The other question is if you can get any extra utility from the Quest 3 as a standalone headset. Ignoring for a moment the Meta/Facebook problems, it's quite a capable Mixed Reality device, and quite a capable non-tethered VR console. For me I'm upgrading (side-grading?) from a Reverb G2 and the standalone and MR features seem interesting and worth something.

 

I only use Q3 for stand alone and am enjoying it so far.

[chiliwili69]

On 10/20/2023 at 10:01 PM, Alonzo said:

The other question is if you can get any extra utility from the Quest 3 as a standalone headset. Ignoring for a moment the Meta/Facebook problems, it's quite a capable Mixed Reality device, and quite a capable non-tethered VR console. For me I'm upgrading (side-grading?) from a Reverb G2 and the standalone and MR features seem interesting and worth something

 

Yes, the Quest3 is an interesting device in the MR reality, it shows what the technology could go, but I am not sure if it will give any real usage apart from showing it to visits.

I am also a bit worried about the future usage of the Quest3 by my 16year son and 12year daugther. It can be quite distracting, but the same than a mobile phone or a PC.

I should decide this today since it is the last day of the 14 days period to return it.

 

I don´t play MP, but just FYI this is the spotting ability of both devices for 4 Ju-52 at 9.5 Km

 

 

 

this is the original pic from Quest:

 

 

 

 

[J2_Nedo]

thanx for the Information!

Valve Index user here, after 4 years the HMD is getting old but still gives great VR experience.
I bought the Quest 3 (still shipping) mainly because of the mixed reality stuff ? (with the BoboVR M3 Pro headband with battery)

but also for my little one so I can use my PC for other things.

I will test it of course with the QuestLink connecting to the PC (4090), but this is not why i bought it.

With the QuestLink did you notice a delay while flying??

 

regarding Mixed Reality, with the BoboVR M3 Pro you can even remove the facial interface if you are in MR:

 

[chiliwili69]

5 hours ago, J2_Nedo said:

With the QuestLink did you notice a delay while flying??

 

The Questlink gives me an experience as fluent as the Index. No stutters or artifacts.

Definetly I will need to use a mod or any other third party strap like Bobo to increase the comfort. 

With the Elite strap it is still heavy at front.

[DBCOOPER011]

9 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

The Questlink gives me an experience as fluent as the Index. No stutters or artifacts.

Definetly I will need to use a mod or any other third party strap like Bobo to increase the comfort. 

With the Elite strap it is still heavy at front.

 

I would recommend trying out an HMD with aspheric lenses, preferably with eye tracking. That was the biggest improvement for me recently and I've had a lot of headsets from the DK2 onwards. Even though the valve index is a good headset overall, the resolution was way too low for me for flight sims at this point in time. I thought pancake lenses in the pico 4 would bring it up a notch, but it didnt due to the encoding compression and lack of display port. I use the pico in stand alone mode quite often though. When I got the pimax crystal, it was night/day between any of the other headsets I've ever had. Phenomenal picture, and really good performance using quad views foveated rendering. It took me about a week to figure out all the problems associated with the headset and its definitely not plug/play. Thats its biggest drawbacks besides being a somewhat shady company...

[dburne]

Yeah I love the aspheric lenses in my Aero.

[J2_Nedo]

2 hours ago, DBCOOPER011 said:

 

I would recommend trying out an HMD with aspheric lenses

me waiting for the valve deckard ?

 

 

[chiliwili69]

11 hours ago, DBCOOPER011 said:

When I got the pimax crystal, it was night/day between any of the other headsets I've ever had

Yes, I have been following Pimax Crystal closely, but there are three aspects that I think I will not be happy with.

One is the size and rotational inertia. Why it needs to be be so bulky? It is not giving ghe FOV of previous headset. (I owned the Pimax5K and was bulky)

Second is the limited FOV, perhaps like the Quest3 and the like

Third one is the need to use bateries even plugged and swap them.

 

I finally decided to keep the Quest3 and I will sell the Index, I will have to sacrify certain things but will gain in another items.

I also want to try the BigScreen if nothing new appear on aorund January.

[DBCOOPER011]

11 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

Yes, I have been following Pimax Crystal closely, but there are three aspects that I think I will not be happy with.

One is the size and rotational inertia. Why it needs to be be so bulky? It is not giving ghe FOV of previous headset. (I owned the Pimax5K and was bulky)

Second is the limited FOV, perhaps like the Quest3 and the like

Third one is the need to use bateries even plugged and swap them.

 

I finally decided to keep the Quest3 and I will sell the Index, I will have to sacrify certain things but will gain in another items.

I also want to try the BigScreen if nothing new appear on aorund January.

 

Yea, The crystal is somewhat bulky, and the horizontal fov is somewhat mediocre at around 103 degrees, so not too bad but also not the best. The batteries are on a constant charge with the usb hub they supply, and I've never had to change the batteries out yet. But it took some time adjusting it to work properly with the usb ports. Apparently pimax is close to fielding a wider field of view lens, but it appears it may have somewhat of a lower binocular overlap and that may be an issue for some people.

 

The Varjo Aero may possibly be a good option to check out since you have the base stations. Anything with eye tracking and a display port is in my opinion preferable to anything else that's out. Eye tracking gives you the ability to maximize the rendered area your looking at, versus not looking at, in order to conserve resources for your cpu/gpu.

 

[dburne]

1 hour ago, DBCOOPER011 said:

 

Yea, The crystal is somewhat bulky, and the horizontal fov is somewhat mediocre at around 103 degrees, so not too bad but also not the best. The batteries are on a constant charge with the usb hub they supply, and I've never had to change the batteries out yet. But it took some time adjusting it to work properly with the usb ports. Apparently pimax is close to fielding a wider field of view lens, but it appears it may have somewhat of a lower binocular overlap and that may be an issue for some people.

 

The Varjo Aero may possibly be a good option to check out since you have the base stations. Anything with eye tracking and a display port is in my opinion preferable to anything else that's out. Eye tracking gives you the ability to maximize the rendered area your looking at, versus not looking at, in order to conserve resources for your cpu/gpu.

 

 

I use eye tracked DFR with DCS (as it now supports it) with my Aero and the results are absolutely incredible. High resolution in the focus view and lower resolution in the periphery. I never even notice it and the results are astounding in both looks and performance.

[dburne]

16 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

I finally decided to keep the Quest3 and I will sell the Index, I will have to sacrify certain things but will gain in another items.

I also want to try the BigScreen if nothing new appear on aorund January.

 

 

While everyone's experience can be different, congrats on finally keeping one and upgrading from the Index. Going to be a big difference for you in image clarity as you obviously have seen. I can tell you Index tracking cameras are second to none, you won't ever see any better tracking than you will get with that It is a shame you did not get to try the Aero but certainly understandable, it is very pricey and does not have quite the same generous return policy. 

 

Thank you so much for all the testing you do for us.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by dburne

[J2_Nedo]

19 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

I finally decided to keep the Quest3 and I will sell the Index,

My Quest 3 arrived yesterday and after a few first tests, i alraedy love it ?

after a few testflights i doubt i will use my Index again, the pic is really nice and everything supersmooth using Virtual Desktop even wireless.

The Cable will come tomorrow so i will test same setup with the cable. But walking around in the whole house wireless is a new and nice experience too.

What really got me is the Mixed Reality, since i do 3D scanning, it was such an immersive experience to sit in front of my desk and have this virtuell 3D modell on the real desk. Without the faceplate, super close, i dont know, but the FOV feels like 200 ?

At the end i put my old Index on, man that felt as old as a rusty knight helmet ?

But i will keep it for now just in case the Quest causes problems. (and the lighthouses maybe used by the Deckard too)

[chiliwili69]

13 hours ago, DBCOOPER011 said:

Eye tracking gives you the ability to maximize the rendered area your looking at, versus not looking at, in order to conserve resources for your cpu/gpu.

Yes, eye tracking will be the thing that will allow very high resolutions devices today (and tomorrow) to have a decent performance since the resolution of device is growing faster than the redenring power of new GPUs.

9 hours ago, dburne said:

While everyone's experience can be different, congrats on finally keeping one and upgrading from the Index. Going to be a big difference for you in image clarity as you obviously have seen. I can tell you Index tracking cameras are second to none, you won't ever see any better tracking than you will get with that It is a shame you did not get to try the Aero but certainly understandable, it is very pricey and does not have quite the same generous return policy. 

 

Well, yes, It is the time to retire this good friend who has served me during more than 4 years without a fault. I will miss the FOV, the audio and the easiness to setup. But times are changing. I hope to see a future deckard but it is very uncertain right now.

 

Regarding the Varjo I think any product bought in the EU has the policy to return it within 14 natural days, But I think I will love it by vertical FOV is very small.

[dburne]

4 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

Yes, eye tracking will be the thing that will allow very high resolutions devices today (and tomorrow) to have a decent performance since the resolution of device is growing faster than the redenring power of new GPUs.

 

Well, yes, It is the time to retire this good friend who has served me during more than 4 years without a fault. I will miss the FOV, the audio and the easiness to setup. But times are changing. I hope to see a future deckard but it is very uncertain right now.

 

Regarding the Varjo I think any product bought in the EU has the policy to return it within 14 natural days, But I think I will love it by vertical FOV is very small.

 

Yes vertical FOV is indeed small. I myself got used to it but certainly understand some can not. I think some are so blown away by the incredible image clarity they do like me and forget about VFOV.

 

BTW eye tracked DFR has to be supported by the game developer as well, currently IL-2 is not AFAIK.

Edited October 26, 2023 by dburne

[Charlo-VR]

Vertical FOV is really a must in MP servers. Last night I got in a long vertical fight - well, the enemy 109 kept it vertical while I kept my Mig 3 alive by turning and juking each time that 109 dived on me. I quickly realized that if I was still using my Reverb G2 there was no way I could have kept that booming and zooming 109 in view like I could last night in my Pimax Crystal. I survived the fight because of that larger vertical FOV.

[Benoitgg]

Btw, Contrast is now adjustable directly into the headset settings (Accessibility/vision). Have you tried it ? I found it rather efficient !

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

28 minutes ago, Benoitgg said:

Btw, Contrast is now adjustable directly into the headset settings (Accessibility/vision). Have you tried it ? I found it rather efficient !

If that would make distant contacts more visible. Was testing yesterday the il2 VR and spotting is not optimal ,  planes graphics from distance is too bright and not that contrasting from a sky or clouds (AAx2, HDR), plus the  blooming is exaggerated. Everything felt to bright in distance. Could try HDR off also I could tweak that from OpenXR toolkit but I don't be playing il2 in VR anyway despite good framerates.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Messing with the colors on the Q3 will only help so much. Using the same settings, on my G2 I can get a rough ID on a plane 7km away in perfect conditions, but on the quest it's just blurry jagged pixels. I blame compression.

[J2_Nedo]

yesterday first IL2 Flying Circus session on Flugpark, well i am blown away, using the beta Virtual Desktop VDRX setting,

compared to my old Index the Spotting is perfect for me was never so good. And i almost maxed everything in IL2.

Of course this is just my experience coming from a Index.

I am about to get second Quest 3 just for some MR multiplayer at home (Billard as an example) ?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

59 minutes ago, J2_Nedo said:

yesterday first IL2 Flying Circus session on Flugpark, well i am blown away, using the beta Virtual Desktop VDRX setting,

compared to my old Index the Spotting is perfect for me was never so good. And i almost maxed everything in IL2.

Of course this is just my experience coming from a Index.

I am about to get second Quest 3 just for some MR multiplayer at home (Billard as an example) ?

I'm also using VDXR, great performance.

I heard about XR layers, like quick check 6 , but need to read how to  install and activate those layers.

Are you using USB cable or wifi (I presume WiFi for VD), which codec ?

Btw free Miracle Pool in MR is brilliant.

[doog442]

I've just upgraded to a Quest 3 from a Rift S and am very impressed, it's like a new sim for me and certainly reignited my interest. 

 

I know its probably not the correct place but for the life of me I simply cannot get a tune out of my other interest MSFS 2020. It's a jumbled mess yet I had it pretty well tuned in on the Rift S. As its a flight sim any other Q3 owners had issues ?

 

I'm running a 6900XT, i59600K OC to 4.8ghz, 32MB ram using a link cable with the same settings in oculus tray tool but something is massively amiss.    

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

3 hours ago, doog442 said:

I've just upgraded to a Quest 3 from a Rift S and am very impressed, it's like a new sim for me and certainly reignited my interest. 

 

I know its probably not the correct place but for the life of me I simply cannot get a tune out of my other interest MSFS 2020. It's a jumbled mess yet I had it pretty well tuned in on the Rift S. As its a flight sim any other Q3 owners had issues ?

 

I'm running a 6900XT, i59600K OC to 4.8ghz, 32MB ram using a link cable with the same settings in oculus tray tool but something is massively amiss.    

You can try this if you already don't know this site.

https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/FS2020

 

[J2_Nedo]

On 10/27/2023 at 10:19 AM, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I'm also using VDXR, great performance.

I heard about XR layers, like quick check 6 , but need to read how to  install and activate those layers.

Are you using USB cable or wifi (I presume WiFi for VD), which codec ?

Btw free Miracle Pool in MR is brilliant.

i first started with WiFi actually i was surprised that it works so flawless. My PC could not find my Quest 3 via USB cable at first,

but i found infos on the web how to, had to enable Developer mode and reset the Quest 3 and before adding WiFi i had first to start with the USB,

now i run it on Cable while flying, it also loads the same time the Battery. I use the AV1 10-bit codec.

Never heard about the XR layers, can you give me more infos about?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

22 hours ago, J2_Nedo said:

Never heard about the XR layers, can you give me more infos about?

Stuff like XRNeckSafer

[dburne]

4 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Stuff like XRNeckSafer

 

No offense however that is a third party VR add on software that is really not relevant in this case.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

4 hours ago, dburne said:

 

No offense however that is a third party VR add on software that is really not relevant in this case.

None taken, yes it's third party software , which is using OpenXR API layers. Not explain myself but I never used those and Nedo just  asked me for what are those layers. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

Finally managed to get the Q3 working with VD. The fault apparently lay with Windows rather than my ASUS router. I hope Amazon can cancel that return and refund request.
 

Concerning the image I am awed tbh. Such a step up from the Rift S. 

The higher resolution panels really make all the difference, especially regarding MSAA, as it often made enemy wings invisible in the Rift S and thus more difficult to spot with. 

 

Even with the encoding compression losses the image is superb. Since I don‘t have to turn off MSAA for spotting, all the damn shimmering is gone as well, and I can spot just as well, if not even better than with the Rift S.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by FTC_ChilliBalls

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

@FTC_ChilliBalls

Good to hear you are pleased with Q3. What code do you use in VD?

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

10 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

@FTC_ChilliBalls

Good to hear you are pleased with Q3. What code do you use in VD?

I use HVEC 10-bit at 200 Mbps.
Set up like this, the decoding is by far the largest contributor to latency, regularly sitting at 18ms. 
Absolute latency is around 40-50ms.

[chiliwili69]

Here some more footage of the Quest3, versus previous Meta headsets:

 

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

Sry for necroing this, but how did you compare the two panels like to like in your initial post?

Is this a custom mission?

 

I would like to compare the various codecs Virtual Desktop offers in regards to spotting distances.

[chiliwili69]

17 hours ago, FTC_ChilliBalls said:

Sry for necroing this, but how did you compare the two panels like to like in your initial post?

Is this a custom mission?

It is a recorded track of just 3-4 seconds which I record when I am in the scene I want to use.

The recorded track can be used as many times as needed to compare devices and settings.

The most difficult part is to obtain good pictures with the camera through the lens. Normally I have to shoot 8-10 pictures to get a good focused one.

[Aapje]

Do keep in mind that the quality is different at various distances due to the fixed focus distance that headsets use. They are only actually sharp at that distance (when viewed through the lens). They also have different focus distances, where one headset give more priority to close by quality and others to far away quality.

 

For example, the Pimax Crystal has a 1 meter focus distance and the Quest 2/3 has 1.3 meter. Some older headsets used 2 meters.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

7 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

It is a recorded track of just 3-4 seconds which I record when I am in the scene I want to use.

The recorded track can be used as many times as needed to compare devices and settings.

The most difficult part is to obtain good pictures with the camera through the lens. Normally I have to shoot 8-10 pictures to get a good focused one.

You wouldn't happen to have or know of a track or a misison I could use to determine visibility at a distance?

I.e. a track or a mission with enemies or friendlies in all cardinal directions at predetermined distances, perhaps one for each distance.

I have no idea on how to create missions in IL2, but I think it would be awesome if we had sth like this to determine optimal settings for spotting. 

Edited March 21, 2024 by FTC_ChilliBalls

[chiliwili69]

10 hours ago, Aapje said:

They are only actually sharp at that distance (when viewed through the lens)

Yes, the camera has the autofocus which worked well through the lenses, but since I was not using a tripod I had to shoot several to obtain a good one

[chiliwili69]

5 hours ago, FTC_ChilliBalls said:

to have or know of a track

Here you are the tracks I used for ID and spot, and the church.

You need to drop the files in the Data/Track folder and they will appear in the Recordings of IL-2.

Enjoy

Tracks.zip