Spitfire IX armament changeover timeline

[LukeFF]

Alright, so in anticipation of the Spitfire IXc coming I've started to update my tables to show when squadrons switched over from Mk IXc armament to Mk IXe armament. I've been able to determine when a few squadrons converted over (including 485 (NZ), 222, and 349 Squadrons), but for the others, it's difficult, since the squadron records are unclear about when this changeover took place.

 

So, that said, is it safe to assume that a squadron would have converted over to .50 cal armament before moving to Normandy? And for those units that remained in England throughout the invasion, what was their timeline? 

[Stonehouse]

may help although I doubt it was a nice clean transition and probably happened piecemeal via replacements in a lot of cases. Exception might be 2TAF units as you say.  

Spitfire Wing types revisited.... | Key Aero

 

Seems like it was prior to D-Day anyway if the info in the thread above is accurate.

 

 Shore unfortunately doesn't cover it in volume 1 or 2 of the 2nd TAF and just lists units as Spitfire IX.

 

Interesting archived web page 

https://web.archive.org/web/20220119043021/http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/sorting-out-the-e-american-armament-for-the-spitfire-mk-ixxvi.html

Edited October 19, 2023 by Stonehouse

[LukeFF]

57 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

may help although I doubt it was a nice clean transition and probably happened piecemeal via replacements in a lot of cases. Exception might be 2TAF units as you say.  

Spitfire Wing types revisited.... | Key Aero

 

Seems like it was prior to D-Day anyway if the info in the thread above is accurate.

 

 Shore unfortunately doesn't cover it in volume 1 or 2 of the 2nd TAF and just lists units as Spitfire IX.

 

Interesting archived web page 

https://web.archive.org/web/20220119043021/http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/sorting-out-the-e-american-armament-for-the-spitfire-mk-ixxvi.html

 

Interesting, thanks! Of note about that second link saying 66 and 504 Squadrons were the first to receive the new armament - Shores says they were the first to be scheduled to receive the new armament (after 129 and 350 were dropped), but that changed, and by mid-March 1944, the first squadrons were to be the ones I mentioned above - 485 (NZ), 222, and 349 Squadrons. The squadron records do seem to confirm that. 

 

I can tell by reading the first link that Spitfire IX armament is indeed a very complex subject. ? 

 

So far, I have found a few instances in the records where a squadron went to an armament practice course before heading over to Normandy, and in the notes it says they practiced firing with the .50 cals, so that does support my belief these squadrons would have been re-equipped no later than their last day in England before heading over to France. 

[Stonehouse]

52 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

485 (NZ)

 

I thought it interesting that 485 did their own conversion without waiting for the doco according to one of the links and that Castle Bromich apparently didn't bother to record the date that production of the E wing began and it just sort of happened. Plus a lot of early Es were converted earlier models by the sounds of it rather than factory fresh.

 

Sounds pretty haphazard - but then again, I imagine there was an immense amount of juggling of tasks done outside the "plan" in the run up to D-Day. Likely it was just get it done rather than worry about how or keeping records.

 

Found this quote from the comments interesting too. It would be good to try to find the source and confirm whether it is an accurate paraphrase of official Air Ministry study results.

Another reason for the delay in the introduction of the XVI/low-back XIV was the reluctance of the Air Ministry to replace 4 x .303″ with 2 x .5″; it was found that, from the rear, the .5″ had no extra penetrative power over the .303″, and the general (lack of) shooting ability, by the average pilot, meant that the hosepipe effect of four guns, in a deflection shot, had a better chance of disabling the enemy pilot.

[LukeFF]

Did some asking around internally, and it was pointed out to me in Shore's multi-volume work on 2nd TAF, it is mentioned that 134 Wing (33, 74, and 127 Squadrons) was re-equipped with .50 cal-armed Spitfires when they returned from the Middle East in the spring of 1944. So, that's three more units cleared up. ??

 

 

8 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Sounds pretty haphazard - but then again, I imagine there was an immense amount of juggling of tasks done outside the "plan" in the run up to D-Day. Likely it was just get it done rather than worry about how or keeping records.

 

I'm getting that impression as well.

[Kurfurst]

On 10/18/2023 at 8:30 PM, LukeFF said:

So, that said, is it safe to assume that a squadron would have converted over to .50 cal armament before moving to Normandy? And for those units that remained in England throughout the invasion, what was their timeline? 

 

IMO it would be easier to look at monthly ammo expenditures. IIRC the ORBs do give a summary at the end of the month, at least with some Squadrons.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

IMO it would be easier to look at monthly ammo expenditures. IIRC the ORBs do give a summary at the end of the month, at least with some Squadrons.

 

Thank you for reminding me about that. ?? I just went through my stack of records and found the ammo expenditure records for No. 1 Squadron, and that one proves they were using .303s all the way to the end of the Normandy campaign. 

[Letka_13/Kukulo]

Not sure if I translated and understand topic correctly. I can share some informations about 134th Czechoslovak wing. 134th Wing was raised/formed on 12th may 1944. Wing was equipped with Spitfire LFIXc. Subordinated units were No. 310 (Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF, No. 312(Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF, No. 313 (Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF. These units server together from 1942 as Czechoslovak wing, but we are talking here about Normandy invasion and 134th Czechoslovak wing.

 

Wing started change its Spitfires LFIXc to LFIXe on 11th jun 1944. First squadron which gets its first LFIXe was 312th (11th jun). On 13th jun gets its first LFIXe 310th. And last squadron which gets its first LFIXe was 313th (23th jun)

 

134th Czechoslovak wing was moved to Advanced Landing Ground B-10 Plumetot in Normandy on 28th jun 1944. Wing was fully equipped with Spitfire LFIXe and planes landed with 500lb bombs loaded at 8:45. Wing operated from B10 until next day. On 29th october 1944 at 12:55 leaved all planes of 134th Czechoslovak wing B10 and landed in Tangmere. For various reasons (there were concerns that possible high cassaulties will not be possible supply with czechoslovak personel for example) was wing moved back to England. It was planned that Czechoslovak wing will be moved form 2nd TAF to ADGB.

 

On 3th jul 134th Czechoslovak wing moved its Spitfires LFIXe to 33., 74., and 127th squadrons whose continued use name 134th wing but without Czechoslovak prefix. 310th squadron gets from 33th Spitfires FMkIXc; 312th squadron gets from 74th Spitfires HFMkIXc and 313th squadron gets from 127th HFMkIXc too.

 

My english is not best, but this informations will help I hope.

 

Sources:

https://www.valka.cz/134-ceskoslovenske-kridlo-RAF-1944-1944-t64176

Rajlich J.: Na nebi hrdého Albionu, část 5, Svět křídel, Cheb 2003, pages 331-332; 379-381; 387-398; 

 

EDIT: typo

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Letka_13/Kukulo said:

Not sure if I translated and understand topic correctly. I can share some informations about 134th Czechoslovak wing. 134th Wing was raised/formed on 12th may 1944. Wing was equipped with Spitfire LFIXc. Subordinated units were No. 310 (Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF, No. 312(Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF, No. 313 (Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF. These units server together from 1942 as Czechoslovak wing, but we are talking here about Normandy invasion and 134th Czechoslovak wing.

 

Wing started change its Spitfires LFIXc to LFIXe on 11th jun 1944. First squadron which gets its first LFIXe was 312th (11th jun). On 13th jun gets its first LFIXe 310th. And last squadron which gets its first LFIXe was 313th (23th jun)

 

134th Czechoslovak wing was moved to Advanced Landing Ground B-10 Plumetot in Normandy on 28th jun 1944. Wing was fully equipped with Spitfire LFIXe and planes landed with 500lb bombs loaded at 8:45. Wing operated from B10 until next day. On 29th october 1944 at 12:55 leaved all planes of 134th Czechoslovak wing B10 and landed in Tangmere. For various reasons (there were concerns that possible high cassaulties will not be possible supply with czechoslovak personel for example) was wing moved back to England. It was planned that Czechoslovak wing will be moved form 2nd TAF to ADGB.

 

On 3th jul 134th Czechoslovak wing moved its Spitfires LFIXe to 33., 74., and 127th squadrons whose continued use name 134th wing but without Czechoslovak prefix. 310th squadron gets from 33th Spitfires FMkIXc; 312th squadron gets from 74th Spitfires HFMkIXc and 313th squadron gets from 127th HFMkIXc too.

 

My english is not best, but this informations will help I hope.

 

Sources:

https://www.valka.cz/134-ceskoslovenske-kridlo-RAF-1944-1944-t64176

Rajlich J.: Na nebi hrdého Albionu, část 5, Svět křídel, Cheb 2003, pages 331-332; 379-381; 387-398; 

 

EDIT: typo

 

Appreciate it, thank you! I had some information on ammo consumption reports by the Czech squadrons but my information was incomplete.

[-332FG-MickX]

No. 453 Squadron sent pilots back to the UK from B11 on the 17th (4) and 19th (5) 21st (2)  and 25th of July (amount not listed) to re-equip the squadron with Spitfire IXe's. No conversion course is documented, just a note that the pilots took advantage of a lull in operations due to rain to "try them out" on the 20th and were flying with them operationally on the 23rd when the weather cleared. All figures quoted from entries from the 453 Squadron Operations Records book.

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, -332FG-MickX said:

No. 453 Squadron sent pilots back to the UK from B11 on the 17th (4) and 19th (5) 21st (2)  and 25th of July (amount not listed) to re-equip the squadron with Spitfire IXe's. No conversion course is documented, just a note that the pilots took advantage of a lull in operations due to rain to "try them out" on the 20th and were flying with them operationally on the 23rd when the weather cleared. All figures quoted from entries from the 453 Squadron Operations Records book.

 

Thank you for that! I have their logbooks but hadn't yet read the entires for July. That is very helpful.

[LukeFF]

Does anyone have good information on the armament changeover for the Canadian squadrons? I thought that maybe the combat reports would be helpful, but in 401 Squadron for example they just list everything as "Spitfire IXB", all the way to the end of the war. 

 

Or perhaps they did fly with .303s all the way to war's end? I'm seeing profile photos of 401 Squadron planes with .303 armament as late as January 1945.

 

[-332FG-MickX]

125 Wing swapped over their Spitfire IXe's with 126 Wing RCAF over September 28th & 29th 44. This happened when 125 was pulled off tour on the 29th to commence a new tour diving bombing V2 sites from the UK. The IXb's from 126 were ferried back to the UK back returning 125 wing pilots for much needed maintenance.

Edited November 3, 2023 by -332FG-MickX

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, -332FG-MickX said:

125 Wing swapped over their Spitfire IXe's with 126 Wing over September 28th & 29th 44. This happened when 125 was pulled off tour on the 29th to commence a new tour diving bombing V2 sites from the UK.

 

Thanks!

[LukeFF]

Alright, guys, if you could, have a look at these spreadsheet images and see if I made any mistakes that need to be corrected. Pretty much everything is based on original source material, so the dates should be right, but there's always a chance that something isn't right. Thanks!

Normandy:

 

 

Rhineland (please don't read anything into the XVI being here; it's just for the sake of completeness):

 

[Stonehouse]

Think 453 SQD RAAF is not quite right. They had Spit IXBs for the invasion and received the first LF IXEs July 17, 1944. I guess if your purpose is to give a reasonable substitute in game terms then you're ok.

 

Apparently, 485 RNZAF is similar except they kept their IXBs until Feb 1945 when they converted to Tempests with some Typhoon 1Bs in the mix for conversion training. Seems they then reverted to Spitfire IXBs in April 1945 converting to XVIs in May 1945 which they kept until they were disbanded Aug 26, 1945, like most of the other Article XV squadrons which were disbanded around the same time.

 

See https://www.radschool.org.au/Books/Defeat-to-Victory-No-453-Squadron-RAAF.pdf page 105 onwards for about 20 pages.

 

Possibly some of the basing dates and locations slightly off too. Haven't had time to collate bases from the reference above to cross check the following but here http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/RAAF/453_wwII.html shows slightly different time periods and places.

 

485RNZAF http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/RNZAF/No_485_sqn_RNZAF.html

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Stonehouse

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Stonehouse said:

Think 453 SQD RAAF is not quite right. They had Spit IXBs for the invasion and received the first LF IXEs July 17, 1944. I guess if your purpose is to give a reasonable substitute in game terms then you're ok.

 

Yes, the documentation for the 17th says that 4 pilots were sent to England to collect four new IXes, but they did not return with them until the evening of the 18th. As there was no operational flying again until the 24th, I set the start date for the IXe for them to that date.

 

(Re: IXBs vs IXs vs LF IXs vs whatever else they were calling things...argh, it's enough to drive one mad. ? So yeah, since the coming IXc is likely the only .303-armed Mk IX we are going to have, it'll have to do).

 

The other important thing for IXBs vs IXcs vs IXes is that the coming IXc is going to have the .50 cal armament as a modification. As mission default loadouts cannot be set on a per-squadron basis, my plan at this point is to have the .50 cal loadout locked until around January 1945 (the latest point at which I can find units still armed with .303s, in this case, the Polish squadrons). Besides the logistical nightmare of trying to figure out what units had what subtype of planes in their squadron, it also would mean that if left unlocked, the .50 cal mod would defeat the purpose of having a difference between a .303-armed plane and a .50 cal one.

 

That's a long way of saying: yes, it is likely a bit coarse, but the plan is to have the IXc represented in a given squadron when they are known to have flown planes with .303 armament, and then the IXe for when a squadron was operating planes with .50 cal armament. At least, that's the plan right now. ? Perhaps I can have it where a squadron flies IXc planes first armed with .303s and then .50s at a later date, but I have my doubts at the moment.

 

In any case, thank you for the feedback, and please keep it coming if you see anything else out of order.

 

 

1 hour ago, Stonehouse said:

Possibly some of the basing dates and locations slightly off too. Haven't had time to collate bases from the reference above to cross check the following but here http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/RAAF/453_wwII.html shows slightly different time periods and places.

 

485RNZAF http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/RNZAF/No_485_sqn_RNZAF.htm

 

Yes, the airfields are based both on the original logbooks and what is actually modeled on the map, so a few dates or locations might be slightly off (hence the airfield names in parentheses). 

[migmadmarine]

Any idea if existing Mk.IX skins will work out of the box with the IXc, or will the different vertical stab cause a problem?

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

Any idea if existing Mk.IX skins will work out of the box with the IXc, or will the different vertical stab cause a problem?

 

Too early to say. I just wanted to get a head start on updating the tables for career mode, given the sheer number of squadrons that will be affected.

[LukeFF]

Alright, so I made some more updates to the Canadian squadrons, based on feedback here and some stuff I read online over the past few days. Please let me know if this looks good or if more changes need to be made. Just remember that, for IL2's case: IXc = .303 armament, IXe, IXe = .50 armament. The RAF was certainly not strict on what they called these planes. ? 

 

Thanks!

Normandy:

 

 

Rhineland:

 

[blockheadgreen_]

Just to clarify the names: although IXc is a useful descriptive term, only "LF IX" and "LF IX(e)" are official designations. The Mk IX did not have a "C Wing" in the Mk Vc sense as it was not universal, so no suffix was used until the Mk IXe came along, when one was needed. Mk IXA/IXB refer to Merlin 61/63 and 66 engined aircraft respectively and were designations singly used in unofficial/squadron settings. Before the F/LF/HF designations came into official use in May 1943 the official terms used by the RAF were Mk IX and Mk IX (66)/(Merlin 66).

 

I would expressly advise not using the IXA/IXB designations as they are not correct nor official, and only add to confusion with the early a/b/c designations of the Mk I, II and V!

Edited November 7, 2023 by Lythronax

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, Lythronax said:

Just to clarify the names: although IXc is a useful descriptive term, only "LF IX" and "LF IX(e)" are official designations. The Mk IX did not have a "C Wing" in the Mk Vc sense as it was not universal, so no suffix was used until the Mk IXe came along, when one was needed. Mk IXA/IXB refer to Merlin 61/63 and 66 engined aircraft respectively and were designations singly used in unofficial/squadron settings. Before the F/LF/HF designations came into official use in May 1943 the official terms used by the RAF were Mk IX and Mk IX (66)/(Merlin 66).

 

I would expressly advise not using the IXA/IXB designations as they are not correct nor official, and only add to confusion with the early a/b/c designations of the Mk I, II and V!

 

Thanks! It really is a muddled mess, isn't it? ?

[blockheadgreen_]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Thanks! It really is a muddled mess, isn't it? ?

The official designations aren't too bad but all the unofficial ones really muddy the water :')

[sevenless]

?

 

https://warbirdaviation.co.uk/Profiles/supermarine-spitfire-mh434-merlin-aviation-ltd/

 

[NZTyphoon]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:42 AM, Lythronax said:

Just to clarify the names: although IXc is a useful descriptive term, only "LF IX" and "LF IX(e)" are official designations. The Mk IX did not have a "C Wing" in the Mk Vc sense as it was not universal, so no suffix was used until the Mk IXe came along, when one was needed. Mk IXA/IXB refer to Merlin 61/63 and 66 engined aircraft respectively and were designations singly used in unofficial/squadron settings. Before the F/LF/HF designations came into official use in May 1943 the official terms used by the RAF were Mk IX and Mk IX (66)/(Merlin 66).

 

I would expressly advise not using the IXA/IXB designations as they are not correct nor official, and only add to confusion with the early a/b/c designations of the Mk I, II and V!

The MAP declined to issue a new suffix to the Spitfire IX w/.50 cal, thus there was no Official "E" designation until early 1945: before that, the unofficial designation in 2 TAF was Spitfire IX LF .5. This was explained by Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas in 2nd Tactical Air Force : Volume Four - Squadrons, Camouflage and Markings, Weapons and Tactics 1943-1945

 

 

453(RAAF) Sqn, Ford:

412(RCAF) Sqn, Volkel 27 October '44

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by NZTyphoon
add correct link/ delete extra page

[-332FG-MickX]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:16 PM, NZTyphoon said:

The MAP declined to issue a new suffix to the Spitfire IX w/.50 cal, thus there was no Official "E" designation until early 1945: before that, the unofficial designation in 2 TAF was Spitfire IX LF .5. This was explained by Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas in 2nd Tactical Air Force : Volume Four - Squadrons, Camouflage and Markings, Weapons and Tactics 1943-1945

 

 

453(RAAF) Sqn, Ford:

412(RCAF) Sqn, Volkel 27 October '44

 

 

That’s interesting because the few logbooks I have seen from 453 squadron show the pilots writing it as Spitfire IXE from them arriving in July 44

[LukeFF]

21 hours ago, -332FG-MickX said:

That’s interesting because the few logbooks I have seen from 453 squadron show the pilots writing it as Spitfire IXE from them arriving in July 44

 

Yes, it was pretty inconsistent how squadrons recorded the type of Spitfire IX in their logbooks. 453 Squadron was one of the exceptions to this.