Some constructive criticism on the business model

[FuriousMeow]

Again, this isn't entry level. This is early access.

 

Most that want entry level don't want to deal with beta testing and will be turned off by that. This is for the true enthusiast that wants early access.

 

The release isn't until Spring, at that point I'll bet other options will be opened up.

[APIKalimba]

This argument is ridiculous. When talking about game pricing you compare it to game pricing, not to the price of a visit to the doctor's or the price to fill your SUV(seriously)?

Either way, not very happy with these bonus planes but what can you do. As long as there are options making sure every server isn't a Fw190 v La5 slugfest. Honestly, would much prefer to just pay $60 for a "complete game" so to speak, but you can't have it all.

Really ? We're talking about what we are getting for the money we pay. And how much we would have to pay for a competitive product.

And you want to compare BOS to another "game" ?

BOS is not a game. It's a unique hardcore simulator. It's kind of surprising to read, on this forum, complaints about pricing since

BOS is probably the last "hope" every HC simmer has to ever play a real good ww2 simulator. Read all the comments about " better have perfectFM, DM , ground personal, multiplayer, etc, cause otherwise BOS will be another failure".....And they want all that

for $60 ? In 2014 ?

We are pretty lucky that 777 can manage to build such a sim and sell it for only $90....

 

Salute

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Imagine the uproar there would be if they'd dumbed it down to attract more gamers than hardcore simmers :D

[APIKalimba]

Imagine the uproar there would be if they'd dumbed it down to attract more gamers than hardcore simmers :D

Good point. And what about if 777 said: sorry guys, can't upgrade the game to hardcore simulator with all correct FM and DM...we are out of money.... We would need to sell BOS $120 to implement all features you are asking for and make it the best sim ever....

Then what ?

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Think this is expensive? You could try Star Citizen. Its not out until 2014 either.I have the Pathfinder, which is ONE fantasy spaceshipship, and the game. Cost $75.

 

You could be really keen and get the 'Completionist' (sorry its sold out) that gives you SEVEN fantasy spaceships, for a mere $15000. Thats FIFTEEN THOUSAND dollars.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/116-the-completionist

 

In the grand scheme of things $50/$90 ain't too bad...

Edited July 30, 2013 by JG52Uther

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Good point. And what about if 777 said: sorry guys, can't upgrade the game to hardcore simulator with all correct FM and DM...we are out of money.... We would need to sell BOS $120 to implement all features you are asking for and make it the best sim ever....

Then what ?

 

Everyone would be screaming why didn't you ask for more money :D

[FuriousMeow]

$130 gets you no early access and a handful of worthless items that don't do anything to better the gaming experience.

 

http://www.gamestop.com/ps4/games/assassins-creed-iv-black-flag-limited-edition/110616

[Freycinet]

You title you posting "constructive criticism", but then you go on writing like this: 

 

 

...(frankly absurd) Price...  ...is pretty crazy...

 

...murderous for its popularity...

 

...You guys realize what a joke that is right?..

 

... the business model will do terrible damage...

 

- And then your posting comes across as a rant more than "constructive criticism". Sorry...

[leitmotiv]

Correct FM and DM , its so hard to achive, to what standards tech from prototype testings of airplanes, or what pilots say about one type of airplane they flown 70 years ago, or what test pilots tested after war or what you see in so caled history channal shows, or hollywood movies, strips and so on, or datas of test of airplane trough period of 1 year and on 100-1000 airplanes of same type tested , all yaks in ww2 were not behaving the same as the one from witch test data was gathered (falts in making them) and so on... 

 

FM DM will never be "correct" probably best they can be but its hard to have them correct to make all of us say this is it even though we never flown them, or expirianced how they behave when some Gs are puled, to many people this is diferant

 

in space sims you dont have to wast so mutch time/money on corect FM or DM, you just say this type behaves like this and this like that, its harder work remaking somthing from history then making somthing fictional

[APIKalimba]

Everyone would be screaming why didn't you ask for more money :D

haha ! Spot on !

 

Salute !

[LLv44_Mprhead]

It is all relative. Many of my friends could well spend 50€ in bar while pondering if they can afford to pre-order premium...

[Tektolnes]

€70 for premium really sounds like a fair deal to me. Battlefield 4 with access to the beta is €70 as well. Yes premium users get a couple of nice extra planes but non-premium players will have the 109-G2 if they want to be fully competitive online. That probably will be the out and out best plane in the initial theatre. I don't normally fly blue but I think BOS mightbe the first sim where I'll try to become an experten just to get a new experience.

[Panzerlang]

I don't remember how many years ago it was I opined that a decent sim should be in the £100 ballpark. Not long before I paid £125 (or $125) for Steel Beasts iirc.

 

More lately I've spent way more than that on RoF. Way way more. What does it add up to in comparison? Ten movie-theatre outings? A meal for two in a fancy restaurant? Or a not so fancy one these days.

 

My only worry now is they fold or the sim turns out to be arcade crapola. I'm not too worried about the latter, if RoF is a benchmark; Jason would never endure the shame. The former is a real risk though. But meh, sixty quid.

 

When do we get the bauble under our name?

[LukeFF]

I pay 50 bucks a year for a limited membership at the local gun club, plus an additional 5 dollars every time I use the range. So, figure about $100 dollars a year just to shoot my guns, on which I've spent who knows how much money. Oh yeah, and then there's the cost of ammo....

 

So, forgive me if I think it's a bit weird to complain about a game costing a one-time fee of 90 dollars.

[DD_Arthur]

 

 

So, forgive me if I think it's a bit weird to complain about a game costing a one-time fee of 90 dollars.

 

Exactly.  I've never understood howling over pricing policy.  The software is the cheap bit.

[Mac_Messer]

Good point. And what about if 777 said: sorry guys, can't upgrade the game to hardcore simulator with all correct FM and DM...we are out of money.... We would need to sell BOS $120 to implement all features you are asking for and make it the best sim ever....

Then what ?

Unless I am missing something, 777 do not have a WWII flighsim on their belt yet. That is a whole different world than WWI flying. They have yet to prove they are able to give us a worthy WWII flightsim.

[=RvE=Windmills]

You title you posting "constructive criticism", but then you go on writing like this: 

 

 

 

- And then your posting comes across as a rant more than "constructive criticism". Sorry...

 

Just because I didn't sugarcoat things doesn't mean it's not constructive.

[Mac_Messer]

I pay 50 bucks a year for a limited membership at the local gun club, plus an additional 5 dollars every time I use the range. So, figure about $100 dollars a year just to shoot my guns, on which I've spent who knows how much money. Oh yeah, and then there's the cost of ammo....

 

So, forgive me if I think it's a bit weird to complain about a game costing a one-time fee of 90 dollars.

Yes, and I pay about 45$ monthly for unlimited gym access. So this makes 90$ for BoS a fair price based on...what exactly? We can go on to even more examples, the most absurd one wins a cookie.

[FuriousMeow]

There's a $50 option, and it's not a month either.

[Mac_Messer]

Bypassing all the early access stuff, if 1CGS goes on wider with this policy, it could get ugly depending on what we get in the standard and bonus packages. Over Stalingrad, maybe the La5 and FW190 are not a problem, because maybe 5% of historical coops would have them.

 

The real problem I see here is that a single plane type can influence the whole theater of operations. Obviuosly, even if the 109G2 is a better all around plane, it still cannot do what FW190 does, and that is defensive abilities and transports hunting. There is no way a 109 flight can do bomber/transport hunting like the FW190.Based on the online wars experience, the FW190 was often the aircraft that held the frontline for the axis, providing vital support to the Bf109 which can go on with what they do best - fighter cover.  Now say we got such a mission LaGG/Yak1B against Bf109/FW190 - how do we know if the FW190 can be fully placed with human pilots? What if already in the lobby we see nobody from the OKL pilots have FW190 access? So maybe OKL have all FW190 flown by AI and guess what , the mission goes very bad for the OKL.

 

Can the devs provide information on how we get it done?

 

My point is that they need to be careful with this as the paying aircraft can easily influence the way a battle goes on, so based on what numbers red/blue side has with additional_payment_pilots, it can mean losing or winning and online campaign. Worth thinking about and I really hope the elite_user_aircraft can be selected with care so the oline play does not suffer from this.

[FuriousMeow]

No Yak1B. If you guys can't battle LaGG3 and Yak1s with 109G2s only then there is more to be concerned about than 190A-3s not being flown.

 

But, of course, this is only for the early access. The Fw190A-3 can be purchased on the official release date.

 

And again, I'm going to bet that only a few aircraft will be available during the early months of the early access. The La5 and 190A-3 will probably not be in game until closer to the official release date.

Edited July 30, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[Mac_Messer]

No Yak1B. If you guys can't battle LaGG3 and Yak1s with 109G2s only then there is more to be concerned about than 190A-3s not being flown.

Please reread my post. It is not about battling the LaGG3/Yak1.

[FuriousMeow]

Yes it is. It centers around that.

 

And you talk of the 190A-3 being a front line fighter, it's already been brought up several times that it's presence in Stalingrad during the time frame represented was a brief sighting at best and nonexistent most likely.

 

The 109F is on par with the Yak1. The G2 should be able to attack and disengage at will.

 

It's even sadder that in one sentence historical precedence is cited, and in the second online parity is cited. Historically these planes were built and modified to counter the opposition so at any given time one side had a superior technology. The ebb and flow of war as it were.

Edited July 30, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[Tektolnes]

My point is that they need to be careful with this as the paying aircraft can easily influence the way a battle goes on, so based on what numbers red/blue side has with additional_payment_pilots, it can mean losing or winning and online campaign. Worth thinking about and I really hope the elite_user_aircraft can be selected with care so the oline play does not suffer from this.

 

Well really what you're saying is that mission / campaign designers need to be careful so that the premium planes' presence in a mission is not disruptive. If the game is a success and the planes are reasonably priced I don't think there'll be any shortage of users who don't have both the FW190 and La-5. If it turns out that only a small minority of players have the extra planes then it'll be up to mission designers to work with that in mind.

[Bearcat]

Let's put this in perspective. The planeset in the original IL2 consisted of 8 planes .. in several variants.

The list goes this way:

Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6
Bf-109G-6 Late
Bf-109G-6AS
FW-190A-4
IL-2_3
IL-2_1940_Early
IL-2_1940_Late
IL-2_1941_Early
IL-2_1941_Late
IL-2_M3
IL-2I
IL-2M_Early
IL-2M_Late
IL-2T
La-5FN
Lagg-3IT
Lagg-3series4
Lagg-3series66
Mig-3
Mig-3U
Mig-3ud
P-39Q-1
P-39Q-10
Yak-1B
Yak-3
Yak-7B
Yak-9K
Yak-9T
Yak-9U

 

Granted it was more than what we have here.. but the original IL2 is far removed from 1946 .. even more so from BoS. We have to realize that for this genre to continue developers must get paid.. period.. and it has to be something that is sustainable over a time frame. I look at the price I paid for this as getting it early, getting something that I would probably have wound up paying for anyway.. and supporting the team. The days of the endless free patches and updates is over.. and truth be told even with IL2 if you look at it, it wasn't really free.. Most of us old timers got 46 when it came out.. and most of us already had FB, The AEP and PF when they came out... and a lot of us even had the Pe-2 add on.. but we were willing to pay for 1946 because it was everything and it had the  Sturmoviks over Manchuria and '46 add ons in it.. and it was the only way to get everything... but not too many people complained very loudly although some did.. For me the best thing about the RoF/BoS (even though the BoS model is not fully clear yet..) model is that you get all the updates.. When a new plane comes out you will have it.. you just can't fly it till you buy it.. I don't see this as pay to win or pay to be competitive I see it as pay to fly period.. and let's get real here.. even in IL2 the P-39 was not the "best" plane in the stable by a mile... but there were some guys... like Smoke Jag and others.. who were pretty good in it against the Yaks and the 109s..

[WklinkTomCofield]

The 190 didn't come with the initial release, it was added on as a download. 

[dburne]

 

So, forgive me if I think it's a bit weird to complain about a game costing a one-time fee of 90 dollars.

 

I am certainly with you on that one, not to mention all them money many of us ( myself included) do not hesitate to plop down on our hardware for running/flying these things.

[DD_BadAim]

Yes, and I pay about 45$ monthly for unlimited gym access. So this makes 90$ for BoS a fair price based on...what exactly? We can go on to even more examples, the most absurd one wins a cookie.

Your $45 buys you a longer life. My $90 buys me several months of fun. How is that not comparable? Everything we spend money on is comparable at some level.

[migmadmarine]

not nessisarily, Douglas Adams died of a random heart attack at a gym...

[Bearcat]

The 190 didn't come with the initial release, it was added on as a download. 

 

 

No.. I didn't realize that .. I just looked at what was in the skins folder.. so it is probably less than that then.. Now I am wondering which ones were actually flyable...

[WklinkTomCofield]

If I remember right, and my memory is pretty fuzzy at this point, the Fw190 was released almost immediately after game shipped, as a free download and was part of the game from after the first week or so.  In all honesty, the time difference meant that for all intents and purposes the game shipped with the Fw190A4. 

[APIKalimba]

Unless I am missing something, 777 do not have a WWII flighsim on their belt yet. That is a whole different world than WWI flying. They have yet to prove they are able to give us a worthy WWII flightsim.

They have to prove ? a company doesn't have to prove anything....They will offer a product that customers will evaluate

based on what they need and what the competition has to offer. And it is the company's decision to aim at what ever market

they want. Then the company will decide how much they will sell their product based on development costs and such....and how much their clientele is willing to pay for that kind of product.

In the end, if you don't like the game, or find it to expensive, don't buy it. just like you would do for a car or a toaster...

Imagine this forum as a BMW forum: yeah, I want this and that, plus this and that and better be as good as this and that or it will be crap and I won't buy it cause my previous car was a lemon but make it for the same price as a Kia , cause here we compare cars with cars so it should be around $15000. But please don't give us another Kia, it is crap....

[Injerin]

Guys,

 

Understand your point, but the term full game is a loaded term and subjective. It's not the same business model as ROF and it's not the same as past simulations which were grossly under priced (in my opinion) for how much they cost to develop and the genre's pricing didn't keep up with inflation. Compare what we are doing to what DCS is doing or what you pay for quality add-ons in FSX and BOS seems like a bargain in my book. Every plane included is about $10 give or take. That seems fair to us. We hope to focus on theaters with this product instead of individual planes, but there may be some exceptions if we want to add a plane or two to an existing theater.

 

The LA-5 and FW-190 are considered bonus planes as they played a very minor role in the Stalingrad theater, but we thought some would want them anyways.

 

Jason 

  I personally am a big fan of the monthly subscription ($15.00), and a full price game ($50-60)with all content. For example Free to play games with cash stores has nearly killed the MMORPG genre. The Monthly sub will keep the money flow coming in and keep the devs updating and creating new content. This will also cut back on the buy to win strategy most gamers today enjoy (win button) and put some strategy back into gamming. Of course this is just my opinion and I'm not by no means a business guru. 

[Bearcat]

A monthly sub will loose me.. Not my cup of tea at all.

[Heywooood]

Imagine the uproar there would be if they'd dumbed it down to attract more gamers than hardcore simmers :D

ever heard of Microsoft "Flight" ?  lol

[WklinkTomCofield]

Monthly sub is fine for some games but you have to be careful when you mix box sims with online ones. 

 

Personally, I like the model that ROF uses now.  You can buy the planes you want to fly and ignore the ones that don't interest you.  I have bought quite a few games in ROF but some, like the seaplanes flat out don't interest me.  I don't have to feel compelled to buy them.  If I change my mind later, then I will get them.  I think it works out well and if you buy a  half a dozen planes a year you pretty much are doing the same thing.

[Injerin]

Monthly sub is fine for some games but you have to be careful when you mix box sims with online ones. 

 

Personally, I like the model that ROF uses now.  You can buy the planes you want to fly and ignore the ones that don't interest you.  I have bought quite a few games in ROF but some, like the seaplanes flat out don't interest me.  I don't have to feel compelled to buy them.  If I change my mind later, then I will get them.  I think it works out well and if you buy a  half a dozen planes a year you pretty much are doing the same thi

 

Monthly sub is fine for some games but you have to be careful when you mix box sims with online ones. 

 

Personally, I like the model that ROF uses now.  You can buy the planes you want to fly and ignore the ones that don't interest you.  I have bought quite a few games in ROF but some, like the seaplanes flat out don't interest me.  I don't have to feel compelled to buy them.  If I change my mind later, then I will get them.  I think it works out well and if you buy a  half a dozen planes a year you pretty much are doing the same thing.

Thats understandable. The reason I was suggesting the monthly fee was since they are charging for extra planes to keep development alive why not just get it all from the get go and get updates and add-ons with a monthly fee, that way they can continuously keep the game moving forward with development. In ROF it isn't just the planes you pay for its the maps, accessories ect. I guess its a catch 22, they will get there money either way I guess. It just seems to me that it would be easier to have 1 set fee than having a store to pick and choose from where most planes are the same price or just a bit less than say a $15.00 monthly fee. Like I said before I don't know much about the business models there might be a better income with a store type set-up than a monthly fee.

[Matt]

A monthly fee for something like a flightsim would be a really bad idea imho. Not sure about everyone else, but i highly doubt that everyone here has time to regularly play a flightsim like this. I sure don't and wouldn't pay a monthly fee.

 

The ROF model would fine, if they would use that. And this preorder offer is excellent, no idea why people are complaining about it. It's between 6 and 9 € for each plane and you'll get early access. Not sure what people were expecting. Asking for years to get a new high quality flightsim and then not willing to pay anything.

 

Regarding the two "bonus" planes, not sure about the impact of the 190 (i think the 109 will do good enough against the Soviet planes anyhow and there's hope that the server which will claim to be historical or realistic leave it out), but the La-5 (it's not the F or FN, or is it...) shouldn't cause too many headaches and even if it would, it's a historical plane for the BOS, no reason to not have it, regardless of its performance.

[DD_bongodriver]

A monthly fee to play online on official servers is not inconceivable but unpopular, a monthly fee to play single player is ridiculous.

[JG1_Pragr]

...FW190 and LA5 are evidently more modern (especially 190), faster and better equipped fighters than the BF109F4/G2 or Yak-1/LaGG3.

 

 

The production of Fw190A-3 version ended during summer 1942. Generally in the same time when production of La-5 and Bf109G-2 began. So in exact meaning, announced 190 in BoS isn't more modern than at least some other planes. The fact it didn't participated in the Stalingrad area of operation makes no difference.

 

That needs to be said, I think there will be no problem in single player (if based on historical and local data, there will be no AI 190. You could maybe fly it only if you buy it of course.). With RoF style MP there is no problem too I think. Just limit some rare/unhistorical planes or banned them entirely. Problem solved. From business point of view, I think that 190 is damn good action.

 

Still, there is at least 9 months before La-5/Fw190 introduction, so I think there is no need for panic. Almost all of us haven't played an alpha version yet. 

 

S!