Why did multiplayer never take off?

[Volant_Eagle]

On 10/9/2023 at 10:09 AM, Mysticpuma said:

The Flags should be text with:

 

Choose Your Side - Allied or Axis. 

 

Choose your airfield - Active are outlined in White. 

 

Choose your aircraft. 

 

Choose your loadout (and these should have 4 or 5 default load outs and an option to set up your own) 

 

Fly

I couldn't agree with this more. And probably 80% of the UI woes in this sim are equally as simple to fix. Once you get familiar with how the UI works, you realize you can actually do most things that you want to do, and most of the time it's pretty quick and easy to do them. The problem is that easy is not at all the same thing as obvious. I think it took me one or two months to realize the little pilot icon was clickable in the single player missions.

 

The vast majority of UI problems could be fixed very quickly and easily just by adding text, changing words, or redesigning a few icons. It boggles my mind that such simple fixes haven't been done by now. At least as an interim fix until a more complete UI overhaul could be done. It would totally be worth the effort even as an interim fix.

 

As far as specifically the multi-player menu is concerned, I think simply spelling things out like Mysticpuma mentioned would be a massive improvement on its own. I do however have a couple other things I'd like to see on this menu.

 

The first is pretty simple. I'd just like to see Nation/Country selectable on this page after selecting side (Allied/Axis or Red/Blue). This wouldn't be applicable/useful for every server but I think it would potentially be very useful in some cases. For example; on the TWC server right now there are some Italian aircraft available on a few random airfields but not all. If the player was forced to pick their country before picking either airfield or aircraft, then it would be possible to make only airfields with Italian airplanes light up when Italy is selected as a country. This would make it far easier to find these aircraft. Also, if the map maker cared to, they would then be able make players who selected Germany only see German aircraft, and those who selected Italy only see Italian aircraft on menus. This would add a greater level of historical accuracy to a server as well as make things easier in my opinion.

 

The second is a little more complex but I think it would be a massive improvement especially for new players. This would be for a second briefing page in between the main server page and jumping into the actual cockpit of a plane. Right now, as soon as you hit the "Create" button (which I agree would be better named "Fly"), the player is thrown straight into the cockpit. This throws all pilots, but particularly new pilots, into a very unrealistically bewildering position. All I know at moment is what type of airplane I'm sitting in and where the airfield I'm on is located on the map. I don't know where I am on the field, I don't know where the runway is, I don't know if there even is a runway, I don't even know what direction I'm pointed, I don't know the weather conditions (unless I see a wind sock), and I don't know if the field has been cratered and if so where. No pilot would get to the point of sitting in an airplane without being familiar with all these things. Even if they had to scramble to their airplane in pajamas without breakfast they'd know all this stuff (except for exact locations of craters if the bombing was very recent). It's super frustrating always spawning in so oblivious to my surroundings. Not only is it impractical but it's also highly unrealistic. I have to either just gun the throttle in some random direction and hope I survive, or spend several minutes taxiing in circles around the airfield to familiarize myself with things I know any real pilot would already know by that point.

 

This could all be easily fixed if the button that is now "Create" was changed to something like "Brief" and would take you to a quick briefing page instead of the cockpit. All this page would need to have is as follows:

 

-A top down view of the selected airfield (This could be a diagram, a map, or a screenshot).

 

-An icon indicating the location and orientation of where the player's aircraft will spawn to on the airfield.

 

-A compass rose

 

-Icons showing crater locations (or areas of craters or at least a notice that craters are present or not).

 

-A basic weather blurb containing at least wind direction and speed. (The pilot in me really wants to add things like temperature, barometric pressure, field elevation, etc. But that's certainly going beyond the minimum requirements.)

 

This page would only need 2 buttons. "Fly" which would put the player in the cockpit, and "Back" which would go back to the previous page. Other features could be added to this page though like a button for a more detailed weather brief or the ability to select between available spawn points on the airfield.

[Monk_xx]

Hey @Josp,

 

I appreciate you trying to show that the glass is half full. I wanted to mention why the new player experience is more important nowadays than it used to be.

 

It is 2023 and not early 2010s when flight sim scene had only CLoD and no Normandy maps for both BoS and DCS. Naturally, you had people flying CLoD back then and new players organically had to go through all of its quirks to enjoy the Battle of Britain flight sim. Currently, people have a choice between several sims. I also have to mention Warthunder here as a product that sucks in a lot of new players who want 'WW2 stuff' which was not so popular back in the 'good old days'.

 

Obviously, you can keep telling new players to read the manual to learn how to set up their controls, navigate menus, and deal with known quirks in your product since its release. You can also release a pile of brown erm...ground for $60, argue with your community, shut yourself off from the community in the end, reduce the number of active players to zero, and wonder why new players don't have motivation nor interest to stick with CLoD no matter how potentially good it is. Why should they when there are other flight sims with active communities that value both your time and mental health?

 

Aaaaand my post turned into grumbling...What I wanted to say is that people will read manuals as a complementary action to in-game tutorials. You should not expect people to read a manual how to set up the game, navigate the menu, and start the plane; these things should be self-explanatory and have interactive tutorials.

[AtomicP]

1 hour ago, fury1ord said:

Hey @Josp,

 

I appreciate you trying to show that the glass is half full. I wanted to mention why the new player experience is more important nowadays than it used to be.

 

It is 2023 and not early 2010s when flight sim scene had only CLoD and no Normandy maps for both BoS and DCS. Naturally, you had people flying CLoD back then and new players organically had to go through all of its quirks to enjoy the Battle of Britain flight sim. Currently, people have a choice between several sims. I also have to mention Warthunder here as a product that sucks in a lot of new players who want 'WW2 stuff' which was not so popular back in the 'good old days'.

 

Obviously, you can keep telling new players to read the manual to learn how to set up their controls, navigate menus, and deal with known quirks in your product since its release. You can also release a pile of brown erm...ground for $60, argue with your community, shut yourself off from the community in the end, reduce the number of active players to zero, and wonder why new players don't have motivation nor interest to stick with CLoD no matter how potentially good it is. Why should they when there are other flight sims with active communities that value both your time and mental health?

 

Aaaaand my post turned into grumbling...What I wanted to say is that people will read manuals as a complementary action to in-game tutorials. You should not expect people to read a manual how to set up the game, navigate the menu, and start the plane; these things should be self-explanatory and have interactive tutorials.

 

As an aside, DCS is free to start with and you get two aircraft including the TF-51D with clickable controls. There's also the two-week free trial for most aircraft so you could fly a boatload of different types over the year for zero cost. 

 

In my experience, DCS is the most accessible sim out there, both in terms of cost and getting out there and doing stuff. For most aircraft there are in-game tutorials walking you through which switches to hit and when. The manuals are there as well and they're pretty good in general. 

 

In general, there is a lot of competition in the sim world just now and the one that is most accessible will always win out, regardless of its other merits. Yes, die-hard enthusiasts will likely stick with the harder-to-use-but-more-realistic sim but that won't help ensure the sim sticks around. Games live and die by their popularity. More popular games attract more players, more modders etc. 

[Josp]

7 hours ago, fury1ord said:

What I wanted to say is that people will read manuals as a complementary action to in-game tutorials. You should not expect people to read a manual how to set up the game, navigate the menu, and start the plane; these things should be self-explanatory and have interactive tutorials.

Hi fury1ord,

 

let me ask you something.

If you enter a cockpit of some real aircraft for the first time, a Cessna for example not to start with something more complex and demanding, do you expect you will be able to start the engine, takeoff, and land? Without any previous training, studying manuals, or getting help from somebody?

These things should be self-explanatory so you shouldn't need any help and you should be able to handle this as a beginner with only little or no experience at all?

Really?

 

If you prefer flight games that are easy to learn, I have no problem with that. Enjoy what you like. But you're at a wrong place in such a case.

Cliffs of Dover is not a game, it is a simulator. That means it requires some effort from people who want to master it.

 

Josef

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

With all due respect, that's not what was said. And honestly you, and TFS for that matter, still haven't gotten the point many have been trying to make. 

 

Tutorial is needed to start the planes. Not a manual. Specially not for navigating menus etc.

 

Accessibility. Not dumbed down gameplay.

 

Take the DCS example.

DCS isn't easy. People will still learn it. Why? Because the menu doesn't suck, because the game doesn't cause unnecessary problems and what you need to do isn't hidden behind a wall of wisdom, an area to which only a few chosen ones have access (after grinding through the problems and its solutions by sheer willpower). 

There are tutorials to guide you through the hard part (start up, weapons etc.) but the rest is very intuitive. 

 

Again, this gatekeeping mindset works. It keeps people out. 

 

From both posts above:

 

"people will read manuals as a complementary action to in-game tutorials. You should not expect people to read a manual how to set up the game, navigate the menu, and start the plane; these things should be self-explanatory and have interactive tutorials." 

 

"For most aircraft there are in-game tutorials walking you through which switches to hit and when. The manuals are there as well and they're pretty good in general."

 

Last time I'm trying to get this through.

We will see by the end of 2024 how it went. I hope I'm wrong. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by 9./JG52_J-HAT

[BOO]

8 hours ago, Josp said:

 

If you enter a cockpit of some real aircraft for the first time, a Cessna for example not to start with something more complex and demanding, do you expect you will be able to start the engine, takeoff, and land? Without any previous training, studying manuals, or getting help from somebody?

These things should be self-explanatory so you shouldn't need any help and you should be able to handle this as a beginner with only little or no experience at all?

Really?

 

 

You wouldnt rock up for a lesson if you knew you first had to work out the keycode for the gates to airfield, guess the telephone number of the flight trainer and install the filght controls of your chosen aircraft having only once filled the windscreen fluid bottle in your car. .

[Mysticpuma]

Here is another example. 

A player wants to come over from BoS a d asks a question. Rather than an answer, instead gets directed to join a Server rather than do what he asks.... learn in a small group of other friends before coming 9nto a competitive server. 

 

Even when new players ask for help, they basically get told to take a chance online rather than start their own server. 

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37539

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

2 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Here is another example. 

A player wants to come over from BoS a d asks a question. Rather than an answer, instead gets directed to join a Server rather than do what he asks.... learn in a small group of other friends before coming 9nto a competitive server. 

 

Even when new players ask for help, they basically get told to take a chance online rather than start their own server. 

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37539

To be fair it's danger dogz, so you can avoid any action like FT said. 

 

Unfortunately I don't know any online missions for such a purpose, so could only advice on offline missions. If you or anyone else know of such multi-player missions, please post there. 

 

This should be something that shipped with the game though. Offline as well as online training missions. And not 1 - have to guess which mission from dozens of single player / quick  missions allow you to do that or 2 - learn how to create your own for such a basic thing. 

 

Even though as far as I remember it is the same for online with DCS. There aren't any MP missions that ship with the game.

So I made an online mission with all available WW2 German types starting cold etc. and waves of enemy fighters attacking (much like an old Janes WW2F mission I remember). Took me 15 minutes and I had a server going to do exactly that with my squad mates. I had never used the editor before nor hosted a server worked very well though. 

[DD_Arthur]

23 hours ago, Josp said:

If you prefer flight games that are easy to learn, I have no problem with that. Enjoy what you like. But you're at a wrong place in such a case.

Cliffs of Dover is not a game, it is a simulator. That means it requires some effort from people who want to master it.

 

It's actually a game that doesn't work very well.  It's creators never managed to make it a commercial product. Thats why they abandoned it and thats why it requires some effort from people who want to master it.

[Dawson]

The need to include prompts on how to choose a plane on line is real. I've seen new names join a server and leave without ever getting in a plane twice in the last two weeks. These people bought the game and made the effort but came up short and may never come back.

 

I've also seen new players get a plane but leave because they couldn't start it. It was difficult to instruct them because they couldn't use the in game chat either because the default info windows are not well setup or they didn't know the keystrokes to bring up the window to send a message. Modifying the info window layout in the installation would be a good start.

[Mysticpuma]

I think it's fair to say, we are answering the question as to why Multiplayer never took off. 

 

I still say a Server with 'fun' settings or should I say "Beginner" setting would be worth advertising. 

 

Easy engine start, Press "I". 

Don't ask the players to understand complex engine management, just let them take off and "feel" how the individual aircraft handle. 

Let them get used to a closed cockpit but allow padlock of enemy targets. 

Allow player map icon so they can start understanding where they are on the map. 

Let them have a battle against an enemy which isn't Ai

.. Simply put, let them have FUN!! 

 

THEN when they get their understanding of combat against real people....they get to chose when they cut the cord and head to a complex engine management. 

 

When you look at the player base of WT, it's clear it isn't a sim.... But look at the interest in a flight game, it is still vast! 

 

But asking a novice to join, then telling them to sit in an aircraft and not be able to take off, then effectively berate them for not reading a flash card, then an aircraft startup procedure and then they may not like the aircraft, so now go and learn another aircraft.... and they still haven't taken off..... and... another player lost ??

 

So, somewhere, some server owner, really needs to try and advertise a beginners event or novice event/weekend.

 

The entire week or weekend, Locked cockpit, no complex engine management, mini map player icon on.... just try and draw some new players in and see if it's possible to invigorate some online interest for NEW or BEGINNER players! 

 

Rules would need to make it clear friendly fire isn't tolerated (remember this are beginners). 

 

I posted on Reddit about the sale and it has had a lot of interest but there is just nowhere for new players to just get 8n the air and have fun, without reading a swathe of documentation, committing it to memory, taking off, ovwrheating, aircraft starts shaking uncontrollably, player gets frustrated... heads back to Warthunder. 

 

Simply put, there is a huge player base, but Clod or at least it's servers aren't attracting them because they are simply to pompous understand that the elitist attitude is not welcoming and is intimidating. 

You can say you are a friendly bunch but you need players to engage in the first place and while it's great if you know every spit and cough of every aircraft, the question is "Why it isn't popular". 

 

It's just too elite and unwelcoming for beginners. 

 

8.30pm (BST) on a Thursday night and just 18 players online? Surely an easy settings event has to be worth a try, or are the elite so stuck in their ways they would rather die on their swords than at least try something new? 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Mysticpuma

[BENKOE]

Well, I do believe you've hit the nail right on the head. The most telling sign of this is the perfectly undisturbed (laboratory-grade) air over a Channel Winter Wonderland, where historically accurate painted warbirds have been elegantly navigating with textbook aerodynamic precision ever since the invention of the Team Fusion atmosphere.

 

On 10/19/2023 at 9:27 PM, Mysticpuma said:

... or are the elite so stuck in their ways they would rather die on their swords than at least try something new? 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by BENKOE

[Buzzsaw]

TF is in the process of creating video tutorials for CLIFFS which will be included with the TF 6.0 release and linked on the load page.

 

Anyone who is interested in participating in the creation of these tutorials, feel free to contact me.  ?