Why did multiplayer never take off?

[RossMarBow]

I have played GB a lot - strictly multiplayer

Wondering why this game never had a multiplayer scene?

 

Personally the plane sets really appeal to me 
I'm not the best pilot so early war is a lot more fun for me

So I would love it if this game multiplayer scene developed 

[JG27*PapaFly]

13 minutes ago, RossMarBow said:

I have played GB a lot - strictly multiplayer

Wondering why this game never had a  multiplayer scene?

 

How do you quantify that? How much of a scene do you need to be content? I play strictly multiplayer as well and I'm a happy camper. The hosts of FV and CB servers do a brilliant job to keep us trigger-happy plane junkies entertained, and I get to share the joy of flying together with my squad mates several times per week.

 

Of course I'd love to see the community grow, but IMO sometimes we should count our blessings and enjoy as much as possible.

Edited September 30, 2023 by JG27*PapaFly

[OBT-Mikmak]

4 hours ago, RossMarBow said:

So I would love it if this game multiplayer scene developed 

 

There is an Adlertag Event #1 - Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 1900 GMT on the ATAG Server.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Never developed? You must be new ?

 

It died out. Clod had a full server with full real missions happening every European night for years back in the early to mid 2010s. Players just started migrating to other games at some point (BoS for sure when it picked up and maybe DCS in more recent years) and a couple years ago it simply stopped having players, except for events. 

 

If everyone that wants to fly online would just go and seed the server, others would go and see it and join. 

 

Try TWC. It has things going on all the time with Ai flights and ground targets. You can fly it even without other players and still have a lot to do. 

 

[Lord_Pyro]

And many folks from back then started flying vr. And there is for most of them just no way back into 2d flying.

 

So i guess as soon as vr is released to the public a good portion of them is coming back. 

[RossMarBow]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:52 PM, JG27*PapaFly said:

 

How do you quantify that? How much of a scene do you need to be content? I play strictly multiplayer as well and I'm a happy camper. The hosts of FV and CB servers do a brilliant job to keep us trigger-happy plane junkies entertained, and I get to share the joy of flying together with my squad mates several times per week.

 

Of course I'd love to see the community grow, but IMO sometimes we should count our blessings and enjoy as much as possible.

You seem to be lost and not realise this is the Cliffs of Dover Blitz + Desert Wings forum

 

On 10/1/2023 at 12:36 AM, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

Never developed? You must be new ?

 

It died out. Clod had a full server with full real missions happening every European night for years back in the early to mid 2010s. Players just started migrating to other games at some point (BoS for sure when it picked up and maybe DCS in more recent years) and a couple years ago it simply stopped having players, except for events. 

 

If everyone that wants to fly online would just go and seed the server, others would go and see it and join. 

 

Try TWC. It has things going on all the time with Ai flights and ground targets. You can fly it even without other players and still have a lot to do. 

 

 

I will have to take your word on it. However if their was ever a scene it must have been a lot smaller than what GB had/has judging by the amount of youtube content.

On 10/1/2023 at 1:20 AM, KGJ54Lord_Pyro said:

And many folks from back then started flying vr. And there is for most of them just no way back into 2d flying.

 

So i guess as soon as vr is released to the public a good portion of them is coming back. 

I don't think VR is that big of a thing.
I know VR bros think it is.

But most players are still playing 2D.

[5th_Barone]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:36 PM, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

It died out. Clod had a full server with full real missions happening every European night for years back in the early to mid 2010s. Players just started migrating to other games at some point (BoS for sure when it picked up and maybe DCS in more recent years) and a couple years ago it simply stopped having players, except for events. 

Exactly this, I remember the days where every day of the week you had almost full servers.

People just moved on for different reasons, and being not a user friendly game in some aspects unfortunately lot's of new players give up quick.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by 5th_Barone

[Buzzsaw]

On 10/1/2023 at 11:09 PM, RossMarBow said:

I will have to take your word on it. However if their was ever a scene it must have been a lot smaller than what GB had/has judging by the amount of youtube content.

Nope....  the CLIFFS multiplayer scene in 2013 was far bigger than GB ever was.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

On 10/2/2023 at 3:09 AM, RossMarBow said:

You seem to be lost and not realise this is the Cliffs of Dover Blitz + Desert Wings forum

 

 

I will have to take your word on it. However if their was ever a scene it must have been a lot smaller than what GB had/has judging by the amount of youtube content.

I don't think VR is that big of a thing.
I know VR bros think it is.

But most players are still playing 2D.

 

YouTube hasn't always been what it is today. Not an indicator.

Even Steam was viewed back then as something weird to have your game on. Different times. 

 

Believe what you want. It doesn't really matter. Unless you were there or talk to others that were, you will never know how it was. 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by 9./JG52_J-HAT

[Mysticpuma]

No comparable Hyperlobby. 

On 9/30/2023 at 7:52 AM, JG27*PapaFly said:

 

How do you quantify that? How much of a scene do you need to be content? I play strictly multiplayer as well and I'm a happy camper. The hosts of FV and CB servers do a brilliant job to keep us trigger-happy plane junkies entertained, and I get to share the joy of flying together with my squad mates several times per week.

 

Of course I'd love to see the community grow, but IMO sometimes we should count our blessings and enjoy as much as possible.

[No.54_Reddog]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:40 AM, RossMarBow said:

I have played GB a lot - strictly multiplayer

Wondering why this game never had a multiplayer scene?

 

Personally the plane sets really appeal to me 
I'm not the best pilot so early war is a lot more fun for me

So I would love it if this game multiplayer scene developed 

 

Yep, you must be one of the "new" guys post 2016 when Storm of War had shut down, ACG had left and the only populated show in town was ATAG again. If the question is "why doesn't the game have a vibrant and populated MP scene now?" then the answer probably lies in a mix of players moved onto VR, players got tired of the same old game with little new content, players got bored waiting for deadlines and promises that are never fulfilled, server admins got tired of being ignored and belittled, players died (yes, there's more than a few who are no longer with us sadly). The reality is IMO, this game had a chance to be the leading entry in the genre and that chance was squandered through mismanagement and is now an also-ran at best compared to the other two shows in town (hopefully to be 3 shows in town in the not too distant future with the advent of Combat Pilot).

You only have to take a look at this forum and the recent admission from one of the ardent advocates of CLOD that he hasn't played the game in multiple months to see that it's just not as popular as it was.

[ATAG_Pattle]

Todays event had 83 players.

 

Pretty impressive I'd say.

 

Whilst consistantly not as popular as it has been, the community is still here, not doubt super keen for our graphics update, VR and 6.0. 

 

 

[ACG_Ginger]

If they sorted the VR out i'am sure ACG would be back in for a campaign, IL2 is dying and DCS doesn't have the plane set so it's a race between Cliffs and Combat pilot ? who's your money on?

[56RAF_Stickz]

52 minutes ago, ATAG_Pattle said:

Todays event had 83 players.

 

Pretty impressive I'd say.

 

Whilst consistantly not as popular as it has been, the community is still here, not doubt super keen for our graphics update, VR and 6.0. 

 

 

Plus there were fleets of 40+bombers coming over as well as those 83players

[OBT-Lionel]

Last night on the Atag server, 83 players

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp6_WI379ZU&t=15s

[BladeMeister]

On 10/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, Buzzsaw said:

Nope....  the CLIFFS multiplayer scene in 2013 was far bigger than GB ever was.

Well Duh! That was the year BOS was released and it was a grinding $#!+ show with brand new unistablished servers. That is a bad comparison to say the least. Granted CLOD probably was in it's hey day multiplayer wise, but no that comparison does not reveal any great revelation at all. LOL, nice try though. If you are speaking of all time compared to BOX multiplayer, I find that very hard to believe and would like to see the very best BOX multiplayer numbers compared to the the very best CLOD Multiplayer numbers.

 

S!Blade<><

Edited October 8, 2023 by BladeMeister

[zzzxxxxzzz]

Just now, BladeMeister said:

Well Duh! That was the year BOS was released and it was a grinding $#!+ show with brand new unistablished servers. That is a bad comparison to say the least. Granted CLOD probably was in it's hey day multiplayer wise, but no that comparison does not reveal any great revelation at all. LOL, nice try though. If you are speaking of all time compared to BOX multiplayer, I find that very hard to believe and would like to see the very best BOX multiplayer numbers compared the the very best CLOD Multiplayer numbers.

 

S!Blade<><

"ever was"

[Mysticpuma]

3 hours ago, ACG_Ginger said:

If they sorted the VR out i'am sure ACG would be back in for a campaign, IL2 is dying and DCS doesn't have the plane set so it's a race between Cliffs and Combat pilot ? who's your money on?

Combat Pilot as they expect to have something playable by next October. 

[=FEW=Hauggy]

There is no battle, it's basically whoever puts a good update out brings back this small community together.

We don't need to have 5 or 10 servers filled at all times. Basically when I started playing on great battles and cliffs both could usually do 1 and maybe 2 full servers on the weekend at the same time and it was enough for me to play and have fun.

I wouldn't count on Combat Pilot at all because it will basically be one plane or 2 and a map at first, at least that's their goal for a first release.

I'm really counting on Il-2 GB and Cliffs to step up the production and both have huge potential, let me remind you that Il-2 GB claimed to have increased the size of their team so the development cycle might get quicker and I'm guessing an announcement for something new is around the corner.

Edited October 8, 2023 by =FEW=Hauggy

[5th_Barone]

11 hours ago, ATAG_Pattle said:

Todays event had 83 players.

 

Pretty impressive I'd say.

 

Whilst consistantly not as popular as it has been, the community is still here, not doubt super keen for our graphics update, VR and 6.0. 

 

 

Pity that these numbers only shows up on Saturday's events (and this event is a good one, past one were not that good in players numbers) and that during the week we have big empty servers.

Back in the days you could play every day of the week with very well populated servers.

Infortunately 83 it's still impressive in today clod situation, but for a MP flight sim... well the competition is doing far greater numbers.

Hope the VU will consolidate and bring more players.

Edited October 8, 2023 by 5th_Barone

[Mysticpuma]

What would really help is a "Hyperlobby" type software for CloD. I remember the days of 1946 when servers were brimmed full and Hyperlobby was the go-to location to find any game type. The Multiplayer interface for CloD is frustrating for a beginner. I would class myself as a beginner in CloD Multiplayer and there is simply no fun to be had when joining a server and trying to work out what's going on.

I literally fired up Multilayer for the first time in 3 years today, tried a couple of Servers, found the TWC (after the first server left), clicked various optional bases, but they didn't become active, found one on a beach with nowhere to take off from, quit to the Blue side, loaded a 110 and couldn't start the engines (using the typical start all engines 'i' button). Sat there...left. Wooohoo! What a great experience.

 

It's not intuitive, and based on that 4 minute experience this morning, not accessible to new or novice players?

 

 

 

Now I appreciate that there will be comments like, "Hey come online when x/y/z is running" or "I'll help you Mystic if you want to get into online play", but that misses the point completely. I have played IL2 1946 online regularly when the "Warclouds" server was up and running, I was even an admin, but for new players wanting to experience online play, CloD almost actively feels like it is designed to frustrate and keep beginners away. I am just one player, but let's say we get 100-200 new players when VR kicks in. There is no way every player can be hand led through seeting up complex engine management, starting an engine, taking off, adjusting mixtures/prop-pitch/oil radiator/water radiator....etc, etc.

 

Currently there is no route in for a casual player to start experiencing online play, it's simply complex engine management or bugger off.

 

So this is why I focus so much on offline/Single Player content as it doesn't force me to be excellent before I can even join a game.

 

Cheers, MP

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Independently of the hyperlobby idea (I loved that... Even before old Il2), the CloD MP UI is not intuitive at all. I made a post about it on ATAG but this is exactly it. There is no guidance when you join a server. You don't even know what to click. What the active bases are (white VS gray), that there are those two flags up there to choose sides, that the briefing is a separate button, the unusable Ai flights, "create", loadout etc. It's really awful. 

 

And the start the engine thing, it's been so dumbed down that we could leave the "realistic" engine start procedure at the door.

Do like old il2 or BoS. Hit I or whatever and it starts. It's not like it's DCS where you are actually doing anything based on a real manual to start the engine. I was more elaborate in the beginning, but for example right now in the 109, the only thing you do besides clicking I is opening the fuel cock.

It's not exciting it doesn't give you any feeling of accomplishment, you don't need to learn it properly. Nothing. It's almost a random thing so players have to figure out WHY it isn't starting. So it's frustrating when you haven't done it a few times out of lacx of options. Not 2011 anymore. 

 

The two above things are real problems for new players. Besides everything else about the UI and other quality of life things many here always mention. 

 

I'll have to give the lobby idea a thought to see how I see it. I like the idea of the chat we had back then and the possibility to announce missions and launch them. But we don't have coops anymore. So besides the lobby chat function, not much it would add I guess. 

[Dagwoodyt]

I remember Hyperlobby as having option to create 1v1 and small group matchups. With that capability you could eventually learn a bit. That was the only time I was active in MP.

[Mysticpuma]

Apparently (and this is from a loooooong time ago) there is a way to create a Co-Op lobby. 

 

[Mysticpuma]

2 hours ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

And the start the engine thing, it's been so dumbed down that we could leave the "realistic" engine start procedure at the door.

Do like old il2 or BoS. Hit I or whatever and it starts. It's not like it's DCS where you are actually doing anything based on a real manual to start the engine. I was more elaborate in the beginning, but for example right now in the 109, the only thing you do besides clicking I is opening the fuel cock.

It's not exciting it doesn't give you any feeling of accomplishment, you don't need to learn it properly. Nothing. It's almost a random thing so players have to figure out WHY it isn't starting. So it's frustrating when you haven't done it a few times out of lack of options. Not 2011 anymore. 

Like I said, I consider myself a novice online player and that will be the case for a very many new players to CloD online. 

The Flags should be text with:

 

Choose Your Side - Allied or Axis. 

 

Choose your airfield - Active are outlined in White. 

 

Choose your aircraft. 

 

Choose your loadout (and these should have 4 or 5 default load outs and an option to set up your own) 

 

Fly

 

-----------------------

 

The other point of note, which I have raised before is there are no casual servers to encourage players to get involved. I don't mean arcade but Servers without complex engine management and overheats. 

There should also be a mini map icon to help players begin to understand maps and locations from the air. 

I appreciate the cockpit can be locked so no WW view but padlock should be allowed. 

 

My ultimate feeling of multiplayer is it feels like an exclusive club for 'the boys' and sadly those 'boys' are becoming old dinosaurs and the fresh crop who want to dip their toes are excluded because rather than let them fly and enjoy it, they are locked out until they go away, learn how to manage their engine systems, come back, make a mistake, overheat, bail out, leave again, come back and then before they even get a chance to overheat at altitude, in swoops a veteran an knocks all the life and soul out of their interest. 

 

Clod needs players to experience online play and learn to fly against other humans. Combat is hard enough without (as a movice), having to learn complex engine management. 

 

There really needs to be a casual server, publicised, and see if some off liners can bd tempted to try it. 

 

Currently online Clod just feels like a closed door to anyone but veterans. 

 

 

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

I agree. I believe DangerDogz caters to this. It doesn't solve the bad UI problem, but I think it has most settings on easier so the experience is more fun for more novice players. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by 9./JG52_J-HAT
Autocorrect uncorrected

[5th_Barone]

3 hours ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

Independently of the hyperlobby idea (I loved that... Even before old Il2), the CloD MP UI is not intuitive at all. I made a post about it on ATAG but this is exactly it. There is no guidance when you join a server. You don't even know what to click. What the active bases are (white VS gray), that there are those two flags up there to choose sides, that the briefing is a separate button, the unusable Ai flights, "create", loadout etc. It's really awful. 

 

And the start the engine thing, it's been so dumbed down that we could leave the "realistic" engine start procedure at the door.

Do like old il2 or BoS. Hit I or whatever and it starts. It's not like it's DCS where you are actually doing anything based on a real manual to start the engine. I was more elaborate in the beginning, but for example right now in the 109, the only thing you do besides clicking I is opening the fuel cock.

It's not exciting it doesn't give you any feeling of accomplishment, you don't need to learn it properly. Nothing. It's almost a random thing so players have to figure out WHY it isn't starting. So it's frustrating when you haven't done it a few times out of lacx of options. Not 2011 anymore. 

 

The two above things are real problems for new players. Besides everything else about the UI and other quality of life things many here always mention. 

 

I'll have to give the lobby idea a thought to see how I see it. I like the idea of the chat we had back then and the possibility to announce missions and launch them. But we don't have coops anymore. So besides the lobby chat function, not much it would add I guess. 

Agree on this, definitely

[DD_FT-]

1 hour ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

I agree. I believe DangerDog caters to this. It doesn't solve the bad UI problem, but I think it has most settings on easier so the experience is more fun for more novice players. 

 

True, but it still does have 'complex engine management' on ... 

 

 

[Josp]

Hi Mysticpuma, J-HAT, and others who discuss here how Cliffs od Dover is unintuitive, frustrating, driving new players away, etc.

 

I normally don't do this because it's usually just a wasted time but I feel I have to react here.

 

I'm not saying everything in Cliffs of Dover is perfect. Many things are not. But do you know any flight simulator which is perfect? I don't.

 

I agree that many things could be improved but unfortunately, the developers have limited resources only. I personally prefer them to spend their time and effort rather on the FM, DM, AI, etc. than on polishing the UI and making everything so easy that everyone can come and learn all without any own effort.

 

Cliffs of Dover is a complex flight simulator, it's not a game where you can press one key and some magic happens. For example like in another flight game where someone invisible starts doing all the steps a pilot needs to do to start the engine. Watching how switches are magically flipped, fuel cocks are opened, fuel is pumped, etc. is dumb for me. I don't feel like a pilot but rather like a passenger there. But I realize and respect that different people have different preferences. It is not possible to create a product which is perfect for everybody.

 

So yes, it is not easy to master Cliffs of Dover. This is a complex a not easy to learn flight simulator. It is difficult for new players. And just because of that, because people in TFS and others who cooperate with TFS realize this, they have created several aids which should help newcomers to learn faster and less painful way.

 

I have seen many posts both here and on other forums where people complained about the terrible UI, how they are not able to understand and use it, how they are not able to start the engine, how  they are frustrated because of this or that. But none of them mentioned any of that guides and tools created exactly for them to help them with these issues. My impression is they have not used them at all. They probably have not even bothered themselves to look into them. And excuse me but you're doing the same here.

 

You complain about some things but none of you has mentioned any of these tools and that you would try to use them. I repeat I'm not saying your complaints are unjustified, I agree it would be better if everything was perfect and easy but I think it's not realistic to expect this. When you buy a new car or a mobile phone, you don't read a user guide first? Do you expect that everything will be so easy and intuitive that you don't need to spend some time to learn how to use it right? Maybe with some very simple device but not with a one that provides many and more advanced features. And it is the same with this simulator. That's what I want to say.

 

Cliffs of Dover comes with quite a long and detailed Getting started guide. Except many other things, it shows how to join a multiplayer session, step by step, with screenshots for each step. I think if someone reads it, they will have no problem with joining the multiplayer fast and easily.

 

And there are also guides called Flashcards, one for each playable aircraft type, that show how to start the engine, how to takeoff, how to land in the particular aicraft type.

 

Both the Getting started guide and the Flashcards have been translated into several languages to make them more accessible and useful for non English speaking players as well.

 

A lot of people spent a lot of time to create these guides to help new, unexperienced players become virtual pilots faster and without frustration, to help them to enjoy this great flight simulator as fast as possible. I don't understand why people don't use this. They can write long complaints about what all is bad but they don't seem to take any time to use this help offered to them to solve initial problems and overcome obstacles they may have.

 

Let me ask you please. Have you tried to open the Getting started guide and read what is there? Have you tried to use the Flashcards? If not, why?

 

Please could you do it and tell me if you still think it is really so difficult and frustrating for most of new players that they have to turn away from Cliffs of Dover?

Thank you for doing that.

 

And as for the idea to create a multiplayer server with less demanding realism settings for new players to get online experience in a safer and more forgiving environment, this is perfectly possible already now. And I think it has always been. Anyone can create a server without the complex engine management, with icons in the air and on the map, with all those realism settings decreased or even turned off completely. I think the question is if there is someone willing to do that. I'm afraid such a server would not be used too much. I'm not sure I would use it myself. But there is no problem to do it if someone thinks it's a good idea. I'm not against anything which can help this simulator become more popular. Including something I personally don't need or prefer.

 

Josef

[Mysticpuma]

@josef

@Josp

"Let me ask you please. Have you tried to open the Getting started guide and read what is there? Have you tried to use the Flashcards? If not, why?" 

 

Because it's not something I even thought about. They aren't in my consciousness and it would be the same for any new player. Maybe there could be an in game prompt on the server selection page? 

" Having difficulty with multiplayer? Check the Flash prompt cards here: (Location of cards) 

 

My point still stands that it's not at all intuitive and spawning on a beach with no runway is hardly fun? 

 

Is there a flash card to start your own server? 

 

I appreciate your comment, I can see it comes from someone with great knowledge of the complexity of engines... but my point still stands, you first need to publicise an easier server, allow people to fly and then those who want to, they can go complex. 

 

It just doesn't feel as though there is any leeway to bring novices over. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Mysticpuma

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Ok, I'll bite.

 

Sorry Josp, I think my point may have come across wrong. 

 

I'll split this post in two sections, since it's two different topics. 

 

 

A) Gatekeeping / Intrinsic barriers of entry

 

I don't need any guides. And I know them. Believe me. I can do everything I need to in Clod.

And anything I can't for some reason I will figure out myself through whatever means at my disposal (testing, reading, researching etc.). 

 

Not to mention I post A LOT on Steam, ATAG and here to help players that are having problems with the game. And they fix their problems based on my advice. Weird flex, I know, but just to put things in perspective. 

 

I have enough hours in CloD since it first came out, including the early days, that I don't even think about the problems when I play. I just know what to do.

 

And I've never played anything except full real (with externals, sure) and even always flew the 109 in manual mode when I was more active. And I play DCS, jets, choppers and ww2. Going through complicated procedures is no problem at all (again, weird flex, I know, but also to just put things in perspective).

 

That's not the point. 

 

For players who don't want to reach this level or can't they will just leave after a short while. And never get to enjoy how good CloD is because the barrier is simply too high because of all the stuff I and many others have written. 

It isn't a matter of challenge vs reward where the challenge is hard enough for the reward to be satisfying. The challenges aren't real challenges. It's just hurdles disguised as challenges that for whatever reason (no resources, no will etc.) haven't been changed. 

We are talking about controls resetting, hard to understand UI, unintuitive steps to accomplish something (info windows, spawning in MP, loadouts, the list is long), unclear descriptions for commands, the game not starting... 

 

If it were just how to start the aircraft and not overheat new players wouldn't be complaining about the UI and their controls resetting and their game not starting. 

 

Complex engine management or not is another matter. That's for real novices. But if the above doesn't get solved why would they even bother with CloD even if it had an easy settings server. 

 

 

 

B) Game complexity and mutiplayer situation

 

Pertaining specifically the complex engine management and engine start subject I mentioned above:

 

Cliffs at the beginning wanted to be more like dcs. To start the 109 you had to pump the fuel, circuit breakers would function for some basic things (e.g. pitot heating), fuel cock needed to be selected correctly, magnetos had to be switched properly.

 

Now it's just open fuel cock and hit I. Why add this step and not the other simple ones like magnetos? This was dumbed down at some point over the years. Clod does not have realistic engine starts, even when some people like to say it does.

 

And if it will be just open fuel cock besides hitting I, why go the extra trouble of having to open the fuel cock anyways? The game is doing everything else for you anyways.. Yes it is switching everything for you, except the fuel cock.

 

The other point raised by MP regarding the server difficulty and veterans, I agree with that, but it is also a different issue. Not related to the game per se.

Just two anecdotes to illustrate the issue:

 

1 - during the event last Saturday me and three others from our group were patrolling the north coast around Rochester and Eastchurch. I spotted a Hurricane out of Eastchurch flying west, completely level and alone. I dove on him and he was dead. Thinking about it after that I real zed I should just have left him alone. It was probably a new player flying from a rear airfield trying to figure out his game. His screen then suddenly went black. If he didn't have the multi-player info windows setup properly he didn't even get the message about who killed him. Many would judge this experience as being very frustrating. 

 

2 - Apparently a new player gets called out in chat for not using the runway. He was crashing all over the airfield from the chat messages. After the second time someone wrote him to use the runway, he left the server. The point being, for newcomers there are currently no  alternatives to a full real event full of players that mostly have been doing this for a decade for someone to practice PvP. 

 

 

 

 

My fingers hurt. Hopefully I've put everything down. 

[5th_Hellrider]

In CloD would be nice have new UI, new menus, new chat.

Chat that often not even many "veteran" players know how to use correctly. Not to mention all the writing that appears in the server-chat. It would be nice to have the possibility to enable/disable chat in-game, like on BoS or DCS.

 

Regarding the engine starting procedure, here too I would say that DCS offers a good solution. Realistic and manual procedure, or "auto-start" for the laziest and those who don't know the plane well.

 

On engine management, temperatures and more, I would say that these aspects are part of the simulation. These aspects are not what turn new players away. Otherwise the damn complex planes on DCS would not have been of interest.

 

Considering the intent with which CloD was born, I believe that it should be more of a "simulator" (like DCS) than a "game" (like BoS). Obviously this is a personal opinion. 

And in this CloD still has a lot of unexpressed potential.

[5th_Barone]

Clod is missing manuals, (flashcards are no manuals, TF wiki were at least a sort of, but they are not working anymore).

And for a simple good reason. I had the opportunity to spoke with manual developers both on forum and privately.

And the mentality is "no we won't insert this in the manual because people must discover it, it's part of the learn".

 

It's madness.

 

Same for the online events. I discovered that there are pages on ATAG forum with detailed briefing with images of the targets and when I suggest to post it on the event page so players can prepare for the mission ahead the answer was "no people must find them by themselves because they need to gather intelligence".

 

With this mentality you won't help new players, you won't get new ones and the community population will die after the "elite ones" (hilarious) that know the info will left.

 

Most of the guide material has been done in the years by the community, but I understand it is scattered between forums, YouTube, steam etc.

And for a newbie I can understand it is not easy to get into it.

 

Many consider bos as a simpler game than clod just because the UI and multiplayer map selection is easier.

You have there all you need, a "flashcards" that you can open via the map even when in flights, the map with intuitive spawn points and objectives etc.

Does that make a game arcady? For me not. It just make it more accessible, there are simulation aspect that in bos are far better that clod for example.

Every game has it's pro and negative sides simulation aspects.

I wouldn't call clod and bos arcade games compared to DCS, they are just focusing more on different aspects.

For example dcs ww2 FM are far more off in some aspects imho.

On the other side system and cockpit management is very detailed.

Clod and bos have focused on the historical settings, on the historical accuracy and the combat aspect for me more deeply than DCS has done with warbirds.

 

In the end they are all games, that you play on you chair, you won't be a pilot after playing dcs as well as after playing clod or bos.

[Dagwoodyt]

I wanted to get a quick refresher on the La-5 series for SP use and found this:

There is a substantial accumulation of entertaining and detailed YT intros to Il-2 GB aircraft that attract and draw users into the product line.

[BENKOE]

As long as there's no weather in the CloD world, I wouldn't really compare the game to any flight simulation...

I believe that the pilots in the 1930s and 1940s would have liked to fly under the aerodynamic and meteorological conditions that we've experienced in CloD, which are similar to laboratory (magic?) conditions.

 

16 hours ago, Josp said:

... Cliffs of Dover is a complex flight simulator, it's not a game where you can press one key and some magic happens. ...

 

8 hours ago, 5th_Barone said:

... I wouldn't call clod and bos arcade games compared to DCS, they are just focusing more on different aspects. ...

[No.54_Reddog]

On 10/8/2023 at 11:32 AM, ATAG_Pattle said:

Todays event had 83 players.

 

Pretty impressive I'd say.

 

Whilst consistantly not as popular as it has been, the community is still here, not doubt super keen for our graphics update, VR and 6.0. 

 

 

In a world of 6 billion plus people, calling the collection of 83 of them together to play a computer game "impressive" is probably the saddest thing I've read on these forums. 

 

Even back in the "good old days" we would only have had maybe 3 times that concurrently across ATAG, ACG and SOW on a Sunday. "Great, we have retained 33% of our audience over 8 years" I hear you cry. Um, no. You've managed it as a one off. And you've also lost 66% during that time. There's no sign of growth, no sign of longevity or sustained long term interest.

 

With the changes to DCS MP that is coming I'm betting that there will be more dynamic content over there soon. I'm absolutely baffled why the clearly skilled 3d modellers and texturers involved with cliffs aren't putting their talents to use building mods for DCS. A couple of well done and believable FM mods would add dramatically to the WW2 landscape over there. (The lack of ability to create mod maps is a bit of a problem granted)

[Josp]

Mysticpuma and J_HAT,

 

thank you for your responses.

 

I don't want to enter a long discussion. My intention was not to convince someone they are wrong and to agree with me. My goal was to bring a bit of balance which I was missing here. When I was reading this discussion, I thought what would happen when someone new who wants to try Cliffs of Dover comes here and reads this. How the UI is unfriendly, unintuitive, how it's not possible to join the multiplayer, to start the engine, etc. I'm afraid that really can scare a lot of people and make them think Cliffs of Dover is so bad and not worth their time. The will leave without trying out themselves how this simulator really is. I think it is unfortunate. This is what made me write my longest forum post ever so far I guess.

 

For me, this discussion was one sided too much. It mentioned negative things, and that's fine, these problems are here, but there was no mention at all about the guides and other helping tools created to counter these negative things, and if not to solve them, then to provide some workarounds at least. I just wanted to say to those new people something like: Yes, Cliffs of Dover is not perfect, it is not easy to master, it may be frustrating sometimes. But we know it and therefore we have prepared these guides and aids for you to help you to get over the initial troubles you may have. Don't be afraid, it is not as bad as some people say.

 

I don't know how successful I will be. I hope someone will hear that, will not run away but will try to go through the initial barrier as it was called here. And will be able to enjoy this not perfect, but still great simulator eventually.

 

 

20 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Because it's not something I even thought about. They aren't in my consciousness and it would be the same for any new player. Maybe there could be an in game prompt on the server selection page? 

" Having difficulty with multiplayer? Check the Flash prompt cards here: (Location of cards)

The Getting started guide is referenced in the game at one of the initial screens.

We can discuss if this is sufficient or not. It could be better for sure but on the other hand, who wants to find more information, they will find it. It's easy to come across it when you take some time to explore menu options.

 

 

20 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

My point still stands that it's not at all intuitive and spawning on a beach with no runway is hardly fun?

Excuse me but I don't understand this. What do you mean by that "beach with no runway"?

 

 

20 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Is there a flash card to start your own server?

As far as I know, there is no such a guide yet. As with the aircraft Flashcards, someone has to create it.

 

 

20 hours ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

I don't need any guides. And I know them. Believe me. I can do everything I need to in Clod.

And anything I can't for some reason I will figure out myself through whatever means at my disposal (testing, reading, researching etc.). 

I know you from the forums. I know you don't need any help, any guides, etc. But the discussion was not about skilled players like you, it was about newcomers with no or just a little experience who need help. These guides are primarily for them.

 

 

20 hours ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

We are talking about controls resetting, hard to understand UI, unintuitive steps to accomplish something (info windows, spawning in MP, loadouts, the list is long), unclear descriptions for commands, the game not starting...

These are exactly the problems the Getting started guide tries to address. I'm not saying it can solve everything or it will make the game better. But I think it can help to solve or avoid a lot a problems. So after all, it may make the game better, it can help to enjoy it more.

And excuse me but it's not completely fair to say that new people will have all these problems without saying there is something to help them with these problems. I respect your point of view, I even agree with you in some things, but I was missing a balance in this discussion. This is my attempt to bring it.

 

 

 

20 hours ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

Cliffs at the beginning wanted to be more like dcs. To start the 109 you had to pump the fuel, circuit breakers would function for some basic things (e.g. pitot heating), fuel cock needed to be selected correctly, magnetos had to be switched properly.

 

Now it's just open fuel cock and hit I. Why add this step and not the other simple ones like magnetos? This was dumbed down at some point over the years. Clod does not have realistic engine starts, even when some people like to say it does.

 

And if it will be just open fuel cock besides hitting I, why go the extra trouble of having to open the fuel cock anyways? The game is doing everything else for you anyways.. Yes it is switching everything for you, except the fuel cock.

I don't fly in Bf 109 much and I know you're an experienced Bf 109 pilot so I believe you're right that the opening fuel cock and pressing the I key is enough in Bf 109. But you can believe me that this is not a general rule. It will not be sufficient in every aircraft. You have to do more than just these two steps in some other aircraft.

This was one of the reasons why the aircraft Flashcards have been created. Different aircraft types require different steps and the Flashcards help with that. Especially to people who are not familiar with aircraft systems or are used to pressing E and watching how everything is done by the game.

I would like if Cliffs of Dover was more like DCS here and the modelling of aircraft systems was more complex. I think we are in agreement here.

As for the magnetos, we had several discussion with Buzzsaw shortly before Tobruk was released. One of the topics was just the magnetos. We suggested that the engine starting procedure could be reworked and switching magnetos would be made a mandatory step. We thought it should not be difficult to do and despite it is not any breathtaking improvement, it could be a step towards a higher realism. Buzzsaw was not against that but they were preparing the Tobruk release so they had different priorities at that time. Anyway, swithing magnetos is listed in the Flashcards as one of the steps for starting the engine. It is not necessary, you're right that many steps are done automatically, including the magnetos, the game will switch them for you if you don't do it, but we wanted the Flashcards to be ready for that if TFS changes this. It has not happened so far but I hope it will one day.

 

 

21 hours ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

1 - during the event last Saturday me and three others from our group were patrolling the north coast around Rochester and Eastchurch. I spotted a Hurricane out of Eastchurch flying west, completely level and alone. I dove on him and he was dead. Thinking about it after that I real zed I should just have left him alone. It was probably a new player flying from a rear airfield trying to figure out his game. His screen then suddenly went black. If he didn't have the multi-player info windows setup properly he didn't even get the message about who killed him. Many would judge this experience as being very frustrating. 

 

2 - Apparently a new player gets called out in chat for not using the runway. He was crashing all over the airfield from the chat messages. After the second time someone wrote him to use the runway, he left the server. The point being, for newcomers there are currently no  alternatives to a full real event full of players that mostly have been doing this for a decade for someone to practice PvP.

As I said last time, I'm not against the idea with a server for beginners. If someone creates it, I will appreciate that. As well as any other idea which can help to make Cliffs of Dover more popular and attractive.

 

 

Josef

 

 

[Josp]

7 hours ago, BENKOE said:

As long as there's no weather in the CloD world, I wouldn't really compare the game to any flight simulation...

I believe that the pilots in the 1930s and 1940s would have liked to fly under the aerodynamic and meteorological conditions that we've experienced in CloD, which are similar to laboratory (magic?) conditions.

 

Hi BENKOE,

 

I can't agree with what you're saying about no weather in Cliffs of Dover. Weather is modelled here.

 

I'm no expert on the mission builder but I saw you can define wind, gusts, and similar weather effects there. You can even create wind streams with different intensity and direction in different heights. I don't know if the other flight simulators can do something like this.

 

What has not been modelled well are clouds. I agree here. But if you watch the development and news from TFS, you have to know a completely new and advanced weather system is under work. I guess it is nearly finished now maybe. And it looks great. If you're not aware of that, look for Cliffs of Dover videos referring TrueSky.

 

Josef

 

[56RAF_Stickz]

On 10/10/2023 at 12:24 AM, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

1 - during the event last Saturday me and three others from our group were patrolling the north coast around Rochester and Eastchurch. I spotted a Hurricane out of Eastchurch flying west, completely level and alone. I dove on him and he was dead. Thinking about it after that I real zed I should just have left him alone. It was probably a new player flying from a rear airfield trying to figure out his game. His screen then suddenly went black. If he didn't have the multi-player info windows setup properly he didn't even get the message about who killed him. Many would judge this experience as being very frustrating. 

 

2 - Apparently a new player gets called out in chat for not using the runway. He was crashing all over the airfield from the chat messages. After the second time someone wrote him to use the runway, he left the server. The point being, for newcomers there are currently no  alternatives to a full real event full of players that mostly have been doing this for a decade for someone to practice PvP.

1 - if its the guy I remember, yes he was new but seemed to take it the right way. There was one who said something along the lines "after all that its all gone black, I take it I am dead. Still at least it should be quicker to reach the same point this time".

The problem is, we have all gone through this sort of thing, unlike fps there is a lot more than just grabbing a gun and running around like a lunatic. I am 70years old and I remember watching my 3 kids doing just that with some amusement. No need to read a manual, jump off and go (maybe I am at fault - they could all swim by two years old cos I encouraged em to jump in and go).  The RTFM comment was made to them regularly with the obvious response. Whilst for me, even having flown clod for many years I still read through the provided manual to see if there was anything I could pickup, I firmly believe its a generation thing. When you had it on paper, people would read it, online pdf just ignore it.

2- We had several newcomers on allied side and were trying help them (those on teamspeak) to get their engines started and then help them when the inevitable nose overs and the like happened trying to get airborne. We were trying to team up with them, but it is hard going.  So it maybe that a comment in chat re- using a runway was meant well, it just does not necessarily come over in text. I suggested to one or two on teamspeak perhaps they maybe better trying to use a runway because they are a bit smoother and more forgiving (but no-one else was anyway, like yours, ours were littered in wrecks) after they had a few fails and were asking for help.  Many cases this is not helped cos it is often far from from clear where you are in respect to a runway. In the mean time you can be flying round a field waiting for them, whilst rapidly running short of fuel, so frustration can build on either side of the fence.

Anbd there is always that niggling harsh little voice in your head that says, you could just maybe have spent an hour learning to startup and take off before going online.

 

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

10 minutes ago, 56RAF_Stickz said:

1 - if its the guy I remember, yes he was new but seemed to take it the right way. There was one who said something along the lines "after all that its all gone black, I take it I am dead. Still at least it should be quicker to reach the same point this time".

The problem is, we have all gone through this sort of thing, unlike fps there is a lot more than just grabbing a gun and running around like a lunatic. I am 70years old and I remember watching my 3 kids doing just that with some amusement. No need to read a manual, jump off and go (maybe I am at fault - they could all swim by two years old cos I encouraged em to jump in and go).  The RTFM comment was made to them regularly with the obvious response. Whilst for me, even having flown clod for many years I still read through the provided manual to see if there was anything I could pickup, I firmly believe its a generation thing. When you had it on paper, people would read it, online pdf just ignore it.

2- We had several newcomers on allied side and were trying help them (those on teamspeak) to get their engines started and then help them when the inevitable nose overs and the like happened trying to get airborne. We were trying to team up with them, but it is hard going.  So it maybe that a comment in chat re- using a runway was meant well, it just does not necessarily come over in text. I suggested to one or two on teamspeak perhaps they maybe better trying to use a runway because they are a bit smoother and more forgiving (but no-one else was anyway, like yours, ours were littered in wrecks) after they had a few fails and were asking for help.  Many cases this is not helped cos it is often far from from clear where you are in respect to a runway. In the mean time you can be flying round a field waiting for them, whilst rapidly running short of fuel, so frustration can build on either side of the fence.

Anbd there is always that niggling harsh little voice in your head that says, you could just maybe have spent an hour learning to startup and take off before going online.

 

I think the attitude in both your points is the correct one. The new guy just "taking it" and trying to get better, you trying to help the new players and that sometimes we do think they should have tried a few rounds offline to learn the basics instead of costing us our free time and our fun.

 

I too think it's more of a generational thing.

While I am just a bit over half your age, I too read through the manuals before starting something.

At least to get a glimpse of what to look for.

 

But people these days expect things to just "come". At least that's my impression.

I don't mean getting good at it, but to jump into a server or quick mission and be able to shoot and fly from the get go (this circles back to the intuitiviness I was talking about above), without having to go through manuals and posts to learn the subject beforehand. But once they decide to get good, then it's youtube videos and tutorials like crazy, plus practicing a lot. Then it clicks. 

 

But it is what it is. If the game doesn't cater to these younger people in this initial phase, we won't have too many new players in the future (sorry I'm repeating myself here, I posted something similar in the PR thread).