Discussion of Fortresses and Focke-Wulfs Announcement

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

If it's the Cant Z.1007 we can pretty much include Sicily/Malta as a map in TF7 (has this been hinted on already? Can't remember). 

There was AFAIK only one unit that flew it in North Africa (Lybia) and for a short period of time. 

 

Wasn't the SM. 84 pretty much a better 79 that saw less service? 

So don't see why it would take precedence over the 79.

And the Z.506 was sort of limited. 

 

So if there is only one to be had, I'd go with SM.79 followed by the Z.1007.

 

[Volant_Eagle]

3 hours ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

If it's the Cant Z.1007 we can pretty much include Sicily/Malta as a map in TF7 (has this been hinted on already? Can't remember). 

It’s been announced that 7.0 will be Egypt and 8.0 will be Malta. For that reason I think it’s unlikely we’ll be getting the CANT Z.1007 for 7.0, but I hope to see it for 8.0. Both the SM.79 and the CANT Z.1007 were used extensively in the Malta campaign and are both iconic for that battle. I really hope we eventually get both. SM.79 definitely takes precedence though given its wider service area and wider mission capabilities. Purely as a bomber though I believe the Z.1007 was the better plane.

 

3 hours ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

Wasn't the SM. 84 pretty much a better 79 that saw less service?

AFAIK that is correct. Or at least it was supposed to be better. I think it had issues and therefore the “saw less service” part. I completely agree with placing both the SM.79 and the Z.1007 as more likely than the SM.84. However, there’s been no shortage of surprises in the recent announcements, so anything could happen. I was certainly not expecting the B-17, not to mention the B-24, and MS.406 really came out of nowhere.

 

Although it’s true the Z.506 was a less common aircraft, the Z.1007 is developed from it and therefore has a very similar airframe. I’m not sure exactly how similar they are, but it’s possible that if TFS is planning to already put the work into a Z.1007 model, then also adding the Z.506 might make sense. Another reason we might see it is because TFS has been working on making other flyable seaplanes. If both the British and Germans eventually get flyable seaplanes (Walrus? He 115?), then it would make sense to try and give the Italians one as well.

 

I’d also like to throw in the SM.81 and the Ca.133 as potential possibilities. Although I think they’d most likely be AI only (especially the Ca.133). These were both very common Italian transport aircraft and having them around at least as AI would really help to fill-out the North Africa “experience”. The SM.81 was also commonly used as a bomber in the opening stages of the war. I really doubt we’ll ever get an SM.82 but that’s a pretty cool aircraft. Larger than the Z.1007 it was used as both a transport and as a “heavy” bomber. the Germans even liked it enough to acquire hundreds for themselves.

 

Moving away from tri-motors; I think there’s a good chance we’ll be seeing the C.200 (Kind of need it for Malta in my opinion). I’ve also got a soft spot for the Ba.65, but I think that might be too early for the time span of 7.0. Maybe a Reggiane though? Seeing some Recon/observation aircraft at least as AI would also be welcome in my opinion. Maybe the Ro.37 and/or the Ca.309 Ghibli and its derivatives. Lysander for the British maybe?

[5th_Barone]

the SM79 is simply an iconic plane of the med battle, I think that if clod expand itself into the mediterranean it can't be missed.

the cant 1007 also for sure would be a nice addition.

As it would be the MC200 if we go Malta.

[Volant_Eagle]

. . . moving back to the topic of F&FW . . . If the Typhoon is the most advanced in development as of right now (and likely to be one of my favorites), then what is the second most advanced as of right now? Seems to me from the screen shots that it’s either the P-51 or the Fw 190.
 

However, the Spit IX, Spit Vc, Bf 109G, Bf 110F, Ju 88, Wellington III, and Beaufighter VI are all being developed from airframes already in game, so maybe it is one (or all) of those?

 

That pretty much just leaves out the B-17. How far along is that in comparison to the others? (I understand that forecasting the amount of work that will be required isn’t exactly easy or reliable).

[Buzzsaw]

4 hours ago, Volant_Eagle said:

. . . moving back to the topic of F&FW . . . If the Typhoon is the most advanced in development as of right now (and likely to be one of my favorites), then what is the second most advanced as of right now? Seems to me from the screen shots that it’s either the P-51 or the Fw 190.
 

However, the Spit IX, Spit Vc, Bf 109G, Bf 110F, Ju 88, Wellington III, and Beaufighter VI are all being developed from airframes already in game, so maybe it is one (or all) of those?

 

That pretty much just leaves out the B-17. How far along is that in comparison to the others? (I understand that forecasting the amount of work that will be required isn’t exactly easy or reliable).

All fairly much the same.  But individual modelers have different styles of working.

 

External model 3d has to be complete first prior to cockpit 3d model starting due to the need to have accurate measurements.  (virtual aircraft measurements are exact to real types)

 

Damage model is separate from external model, it is where the modeler then breaks down all the 3D drawings into component parts.  Parts are accurate to actual measurements... as for example thickness of bullet proof glass, armor plate, etc.  An armor plate which is 8mm is also exactly 8mm in the model.  This is because 'material' properties are defined in the game... so armor plate is high tensile hardened steel 'material', as defined in the game's physics engine.  (as opposed to other types of steel, or aluminum, iron, plywood, wood plank, etc.)

 

B-17:  External 3d modeling complete... damage model underway, some cockpit work done

FW-190A:  same as above except no cockpit work

P-51A:  same as above... but slightly behind on damage model... slightly ahead on cockpit development compared to other two.

 

Of the other types, work is underway, there are changes to both cockpits and externals of existing models so these are being done.

 

We will show more visuals as soon as we can.

[heist]

good. releace date? 

actialy, dover is more realistic then whole battle of stalingrad. ( bf109e 20mm cannons are super realistig worldwide)

[FTC_Oakwoodson]

Just now, heist said:

good. releace date? 

actialy, dover is more realistic then whole battle of stalingrad. ( bf109e 20mm cannons are super realistig worldwide)

As stated on their Steam page, "Late 2024"

[FTC_Oakwoodson]

With Masters of the Air releasing, I'm as hyped as ever for the B17 to drop later this year. My concern right now would be the lack of appropriate map and escorting aircraft upon release of the Fortress. Sure, for casual MP play it won't be an issue, but for people like myself who would like to make campaigns centered around the strategic bombing of Europe, it would be a limiting factor. Sure, you can use them for the Dieppe raid onto Abbeville and the few limited sorties it had over France, but it's just not quite it. I hope the more appropriate map won't be too far behind. Either way, I think the timing for the B17 is very good and it's great that you've taken such a great undertaking upon yourselves. 

[IRON41]

First this is a great battle to pick.  This was the second time B-17s were used.  Second this could springboard to other DLCs and missions where the B-17 was used.  I like what these boys are doing.  

Dieppe Raid
 

The raiders included 5,000 Canadians, 1,000 Brits, 50 American Rangers and 24 French light infantry. The raid was the first time tanks were used amphibiously and the first time Churchill tanks, Typhoon fighter-bombers and American Mustangs ever saw combat. B-17 bombers were used only for the second time; among the bombers were the crew that would later drop the atomic bomb at Hiroshima. It was also the single biggest one-day air battle of the Western Front as hundreds of Spitfires, Hurricanes, Bostons, Typhoons, P-51s, B-17s, Blenheims and Beaufighters mixed up with hundreds of FW-190s, Me-109s, Ju-88s, Do-217s and He-111s. German e-boats accidentally ran into the RN's armada; the fight lit up the night and sank ships. Thanks to the German 302nd's crack troops, concrete bunkers and poor planning, the Canadians suffered a staggering 65% casualty rate, and the vaunted Luftwaffe's JG1 and JG2 outdid the RAF, RCAF and USAAF. FW-190 ace Josef Wurmheller shot down seven Allied airplanes that day. The 50 Americans became the first Americans to fight in Europe in World War II, and three became the first to die there. Dieppe set the stage for D-Day, not quite 22 months later... Lord Louis Mountbatten was right when he said: “The Battle of Normandy was won on the beaches of Dieppe.”
 

[Volant_Eagle]

Given that many aircraft in this release are armed with the 20mm Hispano (Typhoon IB, NA-91, Spitfire Mk Vc & IXa, Beaufighter Mk VIc), will we be seeing new ammunition types for the Hispano (20x110mm)?

 

Currently all other guns have multiple types of very specific ammunition to pick from. But for 20x110mm we only have two options that are very generically labeled “Ball” and “HE”. To be exact the in-game label is: “Hispano_Mk_1_20x110BALL(HE)”, but that’s obviously not a real designation for a cartridge. There isn’t even a tracer round available and yet tracers are visible in game. In comparison to the other weapons it seems almost like Hispano ammo was forgotten about and then quickly thrown together the last minute before release. I didn’t really start playing CloD until after Tobruk, were Hispanos in the original game or were these added with Tobruk?
 

I’ve been trying to do a little research on what rounds were actually used in Hispanos. For early war it does seem like it was primarily ball and HE rounds that were used. Ball being just steel (I assume mild steel since it isn’t AP) and HE being a standard explosive case with a contact fuse. From what I’ve read the early HE rounds had very sensitive fuses and thus would often explode too early resulting in very little damage. I knew this was an issue with some of the early German shells but I didn’t know the British ones had the same problem. For this reason the Brits tended to favor the ball ammunition in their belts early on (into/through 1941 I think).

 

Considering Tobruk was only supposed to take the game into 1941, only having ball and HE isn’t that big of an issue right now. I don’t know if the fuse reliability (or lack thereof) is modeled though and I would assume it isn’t. If it isn’t that means there’s no point in adding the later HE rounds with better fuses (introduced at some point in 41). And it would also mean the difference in HE effectiveness between these time periods wouldn’t be realistically represented.
 

The lack of correct tracer rounds definitely is an issue even for early war. It seems that right now the ball rounds are considered tracers and the HE are not. This is not accurate. “Ball” just means “Ball” and “HE” just means “HE”. Neither of these would have a tracer element. Right now if someone wants an all HE loadout, they’re forced to go tracerless. And vice versa if someone wants an all ball loadout, they can’t go tracerless if they want to. This is not historically correct. As far as I know, at least for the British, most (but not all) 20mm rounds were available in both tracer and non-tracer versions. They didn’t have dedicated tracer rounds like you usually find with rifle caliber weapons (AFAIK). The British marked cannon tracer rounds with the same colors as the originals but with a stenciled “T”. Not sure at this point what the written designations were for tracer versions of ball or HE (If those in particular existed). The tracers wouldn’t have had exactly the same destructive properties as the normal versions because of the extra space taken up by the tracer element.

 

Since Dieppe is moving into 1942, having only HE and ball is not going to be accurate anymore. By 1942 the new HE fuses were in use, various types of HEI were available, AP was available (not sure when this became available but were basically just for hard ground targets), and a SAPI round was introduced which became very common. The most common belt from 42 and on (AFAIK) was a mix of SAPI and HEI. The SAPI had a small AP head which provided penetration equal to that of an API .50 cal, but it contained over 10x the incendiary filler of an API .50 cal.

I’ve only just started looking into this so I’m not 100% confident of all this yet.

 

[Gunfreak]

My understanding is Spitfires didn't use tracers on their 20mm, the plan was to fire both cannon and 303s at the same  time and use the 303s tracers.

I assume the all cannon aircraft like Typhoon and Tempest used some tracers on their 20mm unless the pilot wishes for otherwise. I assume for the Typhoon when it was more or less a pure ground attack plane didn't use tracers.  As you don't really need it for ground attack.

[Volant_Eagle]

The point isn’t whether they put the tracers in belts back then or not. It’s about having rounds to pick from in game that would’ve actually existed back then. Right now all ball rounds come out as tracers even though they aren’t labeled as tracers. The most numerous round in most early war Hispano belts would have been ball. There’s absolutely no way all of those ball rounds would have been tracers. 
 

If what you say is true about Spitfires not using tracers for 20mm, then it’s not possible for us to replicate a correct loadout right now. The only way to have no tracers in game right now is to go all HE. But to be period correct most rounds should be ball. If you do that you end up with a ton of tracers in game.

 

There should be something like “Ball-T” and “HE-T” available to select besides the regular Ball and HE. A standard ball round is not supposed to have a tracer element.

 

As far as how many tracers were loaded IRL; I know at least some countries left that completely up to the pilot. I don’t know at this point whether that was the practice for the British or not. What I’ve heard is that Spit pilots would often fire .303 first, then when those were on target they’d throw in a burst of 20mm. 

[Buzzsaw]

On 3/28/2024 at 1:21 AM, Volant_Eagle said:

Given that many aircraft in this release are armed with the 20mm Hispano (Typhoon IB, NA-91, Spitfire Mk Vc & IXa, Beaufighter Mk VIc), will we be seeing new ammunition types for the Hispano (20x110mm)?

 

Currently all other guns have multiple types of very specific ammunition to pick from. But for 20x110mm we only have two options that are very generically labeled “Ball” and “HE”. To be exact the in-game label is: “Hispano_Mk_1_20x110BALL(HE)”, but that’s obviously not a real designation for a cartridge. There isn’t even a tracer round available and yet tracers are visible in game. In comparison to the other weapons it seems almost like Hispano ammo was forgotten about and then quickly thrown together the last minute before release. I didn’t really start playing CloD until after Tobruk, were Hispanos in the original game or were these added with Tobruk?
 

I’ve been trying to do a little research on what rounds were actually used in Hispanos. For early war it does seem like it was primarily ball and HE rounds that were used. Ball being just steel (I assume mild steel since it isn’t AP) and HE being a standard explosive case with a contact fuse. From what I’ve read the early HE rounds had very sensitive fuses and thus would often explode too early resulting in very little damage. I knew this was an issue with some of the early German shells but I didn’t know the British ones had the same problem. For this reason the Brits tended to favor the ball ammunition in their belts early on (into/through 1941 I think).

 

Considering Tobruk was only supposed to take the game into 1941, only having ball and HE isn’t that big of an issue right now. I don’t know if the fuse reliability (or lack thereof) is modeled though and I would assume it isn’t. If it isn’t that means there’s no point in adding the later HE rounds with better fuses (introduced at some point in 41). And it would also mean the difference in HE effectiveness between these time periods wouldn’t be realistically represented.
 

The lack of correct tracer rounds definitely is an issue even for early war. It seems that right now the ball rounds are considered tracers and the HE are not. This is not accurate. “Ball” just means “Ball” and “HE” just means “HE”. Neither of these would have a tracer element. Right now if someone wants an all HE loadout, they’re forced to go tracerless. And vice versa if someone wants an all ball loadout, they can’t go tracerless if they want to. This is not historically correct. As far as I know, at least for the British, most (but not all) 20mm rounds were available in both tracer and non-tracer versions. They didn’t have dedicated tracer rounds like you usually find with rifle caliber weapons (AFAIK). The British marked cannon tracer rounds with the same colors as the originals but with a stenciled “T”. Not sure at this point what the written designations were for tracer versions of ball or HE (If those in particular existed). The tracers wouldn’t have had exactly the same destructive properties as the normal versions because of the extra space taken up by the tracer element.

 

Since Dieppe is moving into 1942, having only HE and ball is not going to be accurate anymore. By 1942 the new HE fuses were in use, various types of HEI were available, AP was available (not sure when this became available but were basically just for hard ground targets), and a SAPI round was introduced which became very common. The most common belt from 42 and on (AFAIK) was a mix of SAPI and HEI. The SAPI had a small AP head which provided penetration equal to that of an API .50 cal, but it contained over 10x the incendiary filler of an API .50 cal.

I’ve only just started looking into this so I’m not 100% confident of all this yet.

 

We will be introducing new ammunition types for the Hispano 20mm with TF 6.0.

[Buzzsaw]

Some further notes:

 

The Hispano in DESERT WINGS - TOBRUK is the Hispano I with drum feed.  Either 60 round drum for the Spit IIB/VB and Beau Mk IF/IC or 90 round drum for the Hurri IIB.

 

This weapon had limited ammunition types.  Either HE or AP/Ball.

 

The HIspano II with belt feed had a much larger variety of ammunition... although not all those types were introduced immediately in '42.

[FeuerFliegen]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but...

 

Will rockets be available for planes such as the Bf110 F and the Typhoon?

[Buzzsaw]

15 hours ago, FeuerFliegen said:

Sorry if this has been asked before, but...

 

Will rockets be available for planes such as the Bf110 F and the Typhoon?

At this point, no rockets for Typhoon... in '42, the Tiffies were mainly used as air superiority fighters, not ground attack... which was still being done by the Hurri II's.  Re. mortars mounted on the wings of German aircraft, I don't think these were available in '42, although I am still doing research.

 

There may be rockets for the Beaufighter VIC.  Again, looking at the timeline for when they were introduced.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Just wondering how Tiffie will do against German planes. Sure has the speed down/med altitude and armament, but an abysmal rate of roll compared to any German plane. Source: WW2 aircraft performance chart posted numerous times. Shines in ground pounding though😎

[Mysticpuma]

31 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

Just wondering how Tiffie will do against German planes. Sure has the speed down/med altitude and armament, but an abysmal rate of roll compared to any German plane. Source: WW2 aircraft performance chart posted numerous times. Shines in ground pounding though😎

Should be okay 

 

 

[Buzzsaw]

On 5/23/2024 at 3:37 AM, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

Just wondering how Tiffie will do against German planes. Sure has the speed down/med altitude and armament, but an abysmal rate of roll compared to any German plane. Source: WW2 aircraft performance chart posted numerous times. Shines in ground pounding though😎

Rate of roll for the Tiffie was not spectacular to put it mildly... inferior to Spitfire and 109's and of course the FW-190A.  😉

 

By my research the early Tiffie is faster than the anything on the map at sea level up to around 9000 ft/3000 m.... falls behind the FW-190A, Bf-109G, FW-190A and Spit IXA much above that alt.  (remembering early model FW-190A's with BMW-801C are slower, later models with BMW-801D are faster 😉 )

 

Better turn times than the FW-190A at lower speeds, about the same or inferior as speeds rise.  Very close to the Bf-109G.  Inferior to the Spitfires.

 

Basically it is a very heavy fighter, with massive armament and a powerful engine which is tuned for low/medium altitudes, along with a very large area/span, thick wing whose aerofoil is tuned for good lift/stall behaviour at high angles of attack... same wing has inferior drag characteristics... this is the reason the aircraft does not have a particularly high top speed when compared to the massive amount of horsepower available... the Tempest V with its laminar flow wing reversed the characteristics... it had very good drag characteristics which gave it roughly 28 mph higher top speed, but had much inferior lift at high angles of attack... which meant its low speed turn rate at high AoA was inferior to the Tiffie... but high speed turn rate at low AoA better.  Tempest also had better rollrate.

 

Basically Sir Sidney Camm, the designer of the Typhoon, was learning as he went.  For the Typhoon, in the same way as his design for the Hurricane, he used a large, thick aerofoil to compensate for its weight and so its turn/stall at lower speeds was relatively good... but the penalty this imposed was lower top speed.  After looking at the P-51 and other designs, he realized his mistake and re-did the wing for the Tempest V and Tempest II/Sea Fury.  (the later had the radial Bristol Centaurus... which had as much power as the Napier Sabre, but had more reliability)  The resulting higher stall speed was compensated in landing with the flaps and the fact the undercarriage was robust enough to take these high speed touchdowns.  (all aircraft late war and post war had higher and higher landing speeds)

[343KKT_Kintaro]

 

Edited August 5, 2024 by 343KKT_Kintaro

[5th_Barone]

I've seen a lots of screen (on YouTube) don't think they are posted here.

[BOO]

1 hour ago, 5th_Barone said:

I've seen a lots of screen (on YouTube) don't think they are posted here.

 

?  Last TFS "work so far" video was 5 months ago and showed nothing new. 

[Dagwoodyt]

Seems the above is a screenshot more appropriate for the TF 6.5 thread. Getting from here to TF 6.5 though looks to be challenging:

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

1 hour ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Seems the above is a screenshot more appropriate for the TF 6.5 thread.

 

 

Done

 

 

[5th_Barone]

20 hours ago, BOO said:

 

?  Last TFS "work so far" video was 5 months ago and showed nothing new. 

I'm talking about screenshot.

Go to the "community" tab from their channel.

They are also showed on IG.

Edited August 6, 2024 by 5th_Barone

[BOO]

7 hours ago, 5th_Barone said:

I'm taking about screenshot.

Go to the "community" tab from their channel.

They are showed on IG.

 

Ah found it. There's one of two images perhaps that havent been posted here but without trawling back over the posts I couldnt say for sure. I had completely missed the Swordfish though and hadnt seen the fleshed out internals of the B17 and Fw190 before.  Thanks. 

[Mysticpuma]

If you aren't on Facebook, apologies, I can't help you with that, but the IL2 Cliffs of Dover page does its best to gather most of the news posted 'everywhere' by TFS. The page reported the 3 new Lancaster images on July 28th. It had 1.7k post reach:

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/298167406958460

[BOO]

6 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

If you aren't on Facebook, apologies, I can't help you with that, but the IL2 Cliffs of Dover page does its best to gather most of the news posted 'everywhere' by TFS. The page reported the 3 new Lancaster images on July 28th. It had 1.7k post reach:

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/298167406958460

 

I would suggest that  the words above the pic (if true) are more interesting than the image. 

[Mysticpuma]

1 hour ago, BOO said:

 

I would suggest that  the words above the pic (if true) are more interesting than the image. 

They are.

[Blitzen]

6 hours ago, BOO said:

 

I would suggest that  the words above the pic (if true) are more interesting than the image. 

“Say it’s really so,Joe!”

[343KKT_Kintaro]

(thank you Puma for [partially] clarifying the situation).

 

Blitzen, in my understanding the situation is not that clear. My guessings go to within one or two weeks TFS suggesting their beta testers test a new Beta... and if the crash-bug is resolved, then an official announcement stating that the bug is resolved by, let's say... the first week of September? The "if" is the most important point in my... point. 😁

 

 

[Blitzen]

4 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

(thank you Puma for [partially] clarifying the situation).

 

Blitzen, in my understanding the situation is not that clear. My guessings go to within one or two weeks TFS suggesting their beta testers test a new Beta... and if the crash-bug is resolved, then an official announcement stating that the bug is resolved by, let's say... the first week of September? The "if" is the most important point in my... point. 😁

 

 

“The stuff dreams are made from….”

Edited August 6, 2024 by Blitzen

[BOO]

1 hour ago, Blitzen said:

All my dreams fulfilled…hopefully!

 

"one of the main reasons"  I think it would be wise not to heap too much expectation on that "rumour". 

[Dagwoodyt]

 

Edited August 6, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Hey Dagwoodyt! You here? Howd'you do?

 

 

[Enceladus828]

I’m okay with a release in the first few months of 2025. Personally I’m just glad that we’re getting a flyable B-17 and Lancaster because what other high fidelity combat flight sim has them or covers the lesser depicted early war night bombing campaign and the lead up to the Dieppe Raid?

[Dagwoodyt]

Best to avoid a rushed release. First few months of 2026 should assure perfection 🧐

[Lorena_Scout]

life still goes on, coming when it's ready.

 

no rush dag, they are already doing a great job with the beta. The main bug is gone so keep your hopes high

[Dagwoodyt]

That VU/VR public beta might be coming soon then?🫣😲

Edited August 8, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[343KKT_Kintaro]

4 hours ago, Lorena_Scout said:

The main bug is gone

 

 

Have we an official confirmation from TFS? No we haven't, so please stop feeding the trolls.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2024 by 343KKT_Kintaro
No we don't -> No we haven't