Making rails, roads, and trenches. It works. (originally posted by AnKor85)

[TG-55Panthercules]

This thread was copied from the old RoF forums:

 

originally posted by AnKor85

 

 

I hope this topic will open new possibilities for creative people here.

As I know everyone who tried to make a new map for ROF has encountered a serious problem: binary format for rails, roads and trenches (they use almost the same format) is not known and there are no known tools to produce them.
A couple of months ago I've tried to reverse engineer the binary format but without the great success. I've also asked devs about it, and they have answered about a way to make new roads and mentioned that it involves conversion of "ini" files into binary ones using a game or editor. If only I knew how close I was to the solution back then…

Yesterday, I was discussing some mods with DiFiS and mentioned that some want to see a railway stations because they are good target for bombers.
I'll skip details right now, but here are results of that discussion:

EDIT: see posts below in this thread for much better pics! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you see anything unusual? 
Railways are made by me, object placement and underlying ground texture by DiFiS.

I think I can safely tell that this is the first ever mod for ROF railways. I can also say that sidings are too long and turns have wrong radius, but this is just an experiment that was made in half an hour this morning.

These rails actually work in game. Trains can navigate them - I have checked. There is one problem with initial object placement though - when tracks are close the train may appear in game on the parallel one instead of where it was placed in editor.

Now you may want to ask me what kind of complex tools do we need to make them?
I will answer: None! My example was made in notepad. And binary files are automatically built by the game (or ME) from those "ini" files that we've seen long ago. And it is not a hack, this is official feature. All this time it was so close but unknown…
I will post instructions on how to enable this binary generation, but I need to do more experiments before.

One more question I'm expecting to hear is whether it will work in multiplayer and/or "mods off". The answer complex, but to put it simple: it will work without enabling mods but it can't be easily added into multiplayer.

I have some ideas on how to use this new knowledge. But at first I want to hear your comments 

 

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 18 May 2012 - 08:17, said:

 

Bloody excellent I say!

I think the best way to go forward now is to add a lot of these rail yards to the big cities we have in the game: Lille, Reims, Amiens, Metz, Cambrai, St. Quentin, Douai and then ask the devs to put it in the game in a new update.
Adding this as downloadable add-ons in MP may be fun, but other than a proof-of-concept it will be hard to maintain (the missions that is).

 

 

J2_Tony, on 18 May 2012 - 08:25, said:

 

Very cool!

 

 

AnKor85, on 18 May 2012 - 08:31, said:

 

Exactly. I believe the main map needs a bit of facelift. Road network, railyards, some texture layers (substrate) to add life into scenery…

Road network can be edited in SVG format in any editor. I will perhaps make a tool that exports existing ini files as editable SVG and vice versa.

And you are right about the multiplayer. I can add that road data just won't work as downloadable content as we did for clouds, for many reasons.

 

 

J.j., on 18 May 2012 - 08:37, said:

 

That's astonishing work ! Great job! I think Wolfpac will be very glad to see that! 

 

 

Castro, on 18 May 2012 - 08:40, said:

 

Nice work! I agree with SYN_Vander that these new rail yards shall be added to the game in some future update provided that the trains will move properly.

 

 

1PL-Lucas-1Esk, on 18 May 2012 - 08:51, said:

 

Fantastic work AnKor!
I will be very interesting to test such an utility in the future. The final effect looks great!

 

 

AnKor85, on 18 May 2012 - 08:53, said:

 

Don't forget to thank DiFiS! He is the one who knows the right questions to ask devs. And he also knows ho to add that nice ground textures to bring a lot of life into scenery 

 

 

MarcoRossolini, on 18 May 2012 - 08:58, said:

 

Terrific, I can't wait!

 

 

redcoat22, on 18 May 2012 - 09:03, said:

 

Very exciting! Lets get these added

 

 

ST_ami7b5, on 18 May 2012 - 09:06, said:

 

Wow, guys, you are great!
 

 

 

Panthercules, on 18 May 2012 - 09:09, said:

 

Very cool looking - would love to see something like that through my bomb sight 

Press on!

 

 

LordNeuro_Srb, on 18 May 2012 - 09:09, said:

 

Woow amezing work. I know i would love to see thise in rof, iven if my crapy pc cant hendl it. Amezing, and now if we could add same more solders to the camps , and trenches theat would be awsome. Gr8 work.
 

 

 

ROSS_DiFiS, on 18 May 2012 - 09:13, said:

 

Decoration

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-Requiem-, on 18 May 2012 - 09:19, said:

 

Just want to say thanks for the work you're doing Ankor and DiFiS. I follow your threads but don't post much in them, but it looks like you're opening some doors for some more immersion in RoF.

 

 

Flashy, on 18 May 2012 - 09:22, said:

 

This looks very cool, and is exactly what I need at the moment for my mission! I really do hope you are able to find a way to make this work in MP because we really do need "proper" rail depots and rail yards…

 

 

AnKor85, on 18 May 2012 - 09:33, said:

 

New pictures look great! The bottom one is just like a desktop wallpaper.
Замечательно. Самая нижняя так вообще хоть на рабочий стол ставь 

By the way, if you look closely you will see that there are two engines pulling the same set of boxes in the opposite directions. This is the placement issue that I've told about. Initially those engines were set on different tracks.

Flashy, it is really problematic to use in MP. Perhaps it might work for closed events, but not on public server. Everyone will have to install new map before joining the game.
It may also work for custom-made single player missions. But as Vander said the best way to go is to make something "production ready" to be officially added into the game.

 

 

1PL-Lucas-1Esk, on 18 May 2012 - 09:40, said:

 

Again, a-we-so-me!
DiFiS, AnKor, you Guys are pushing the limits so much! I hope that at least substrafe textures will be included in the Western Front map. Maybe even there is a chance that you could contribute somehow to the Channell Map by adding such a great stuff while the map is being created ?

 

 

=Fifi=, on 18 May 2012 - 09:42, said:

 

Looks awesome!
Just have to know where exactly were those big railroad stations on map (obviously big cities)

 

 

AnKor85, on 18 May 2012 - 09:48, said:

 

Yeah, that an interesting question. Would be good to get some historical references.

 

 

TheBlackPenguin, on 18 May 2012 - 09:57, said:

 

Wow! Hopefully these can be integrated into the main sim.

 

 

LordNeuro_Srb, on 18 May 2012 - 10:21, said:

 

Thx for the post of film TheBlackPenguin. Wery good video. 

 

 

Happyhaddock, on 18 May 2012 - 11:06, said:

 

Looks to have some real potential so well done on this guys, and whilst I appreciate that these images are so far only here as a test of the technology/software, and as such this isn't a criticism of your work, but given the high levels of research that go into the aviation side of this sim, as someone who has a background which is more railway focused I'd encourage folk to take a serious look at railway prototypes of the relevant period/location if they are to start using this to develop genuine maps/missions as there's much about these images that "feels wrong" in terms of track design and station layout, stuff that would never have been done in real life.

Nevertheless it's great to see folk putting work into developing the environment in which we fly so congrats on the hard work and I look forard to seeing more of this…

Anyone out there brave enough to think about adding all the narrow gauge, almost temporary lines that moved troops and supplies around much closer to the front line….

HH

 

 

ChiefRedCloud, on 18 May 2012 - 11:23, said:

 

Fantastic work guys ….. I hope we can work it into MP very soon ….. Bravo

 

 

AnKor85, on 18 May 2012 - 11:33, said:

 

Sure, I don't have any special background except that I lived near the old (pre-WW2) railway station when I was child and still I see issues here.
But in our defense: everything in those pics has been done just for fancy visuals during lunch-breaks today. I typed rail coordinates in notepad and it took several minutes to start ME and verify results each time. Then I sent binary files to DiFiS and he has placed various building and textures but he hasn't been able to move tracks. So it was a completely uncoordinated effort.
And did you notice working engines pulling the same carriages into opposite directions? 

Of course if anyone is going to do some real mapping then real photos/documents should be used for reference purposes. And by the way, this is a big question (as always): who is going to do the job? It is a lot of work.

I can make tools and help with technical issues, but I'm not an artist nor history researcher.

 

 

TheBlackPenguin, on 18 May 2012 - 11:39, said:

 

Indeed, but HappyHaddock raises excellent points. Although, where to start researching?

 

 

Waxworks, on 18 May 2012 - 12:00, said:

 

Great work thanks guys, this is something I've wanted for a while. Have you got any images of new trenches? Would it be possible to add the Hindenburg Line trenches along with the new railway stations?

 

 

Dutch2, on 18 May 2012 - 12:10, said:

 

good work guys keep on, who knows next step, putting in static objects

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 18 May 2012 - 12:15, said:

 

That's what we need! Do you see how big that rail yard is in relation to the town? In ROF as it is now you have to look hard to even see the train station!

 

 

AnKor85, on 18 May 2012 - 12:48, said:

 

Waxworks, nice find. I agree that stations for main cities shouldn't be very hard to find. I'm more curious about how railway network and stations should look outside the cities and closer to the front. Unfortunately we can't add narrow lines as Happyhaddock suggested because all railways must be of the same width and use the same texture.

Adding new trench lines is possible using the same tecnique. Although trenches are more complex to edit because a lot of interconnections and details. And they have the same limitation - fixed width and the same zipper-like texture (and while the texture is ok, it lacks variety). Ground textures can be diversified by using substrate textures as shown on page 2 here but these textures are of limited use and better suit localized objects rather than continuous front lines.

I think now we should collect as much ideas and reference data as possible. Then we will see what can be done and what not.

PS: It must be night right now in New Zealand. Looks like O_WolfPac will get a nice surprise in the morning - it was he who first asked me about road data back when I was researching map format for mission editor 

 

 

Rama, on 18 May 2012 - 12:55, said:

 

Beware: what you see on this aerial photograph isn't the whole town of Cambrai (the Center of the town, the fortified city, isn't on the photo, but on the west (top side of the photo)), but a small part of the eastern suburbs of Cambrai. If you had an aerial photo of lowest scale, this rail yard would look much smaller in relation to the town.
This train station was in 1914 composed of only 2 rail tracks, it was developed further during the war as a depot train station.

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 18 May 2012 - 12:57, said:

 

Being able to move the trench lines would be top of my list! It would be incredible if we could do this as part of the mission.

 

Yeah, how could I forgot to mention: now nothing really stops from making a moving front line as in Modded map.
Well, expect the free time. Note that topic is from 2010 and it mentions custom weather, substrate textures by DiFiS and other interesting stuff too. Everything was known long ago…

So far I think that the only viable solution is to make a predefined set of front lines for various periods of war. Of course there are other solutions but they aren't manageable.

 

 

Rama, on 18 May 2012 - 13:11, said:

 

Yes, and the reference data collect isn't an easy task… and can quickly be quite expensive (believe me…).

The example given is quite nice. doing some "believable" depot rail stations near big towns would be a nice addition.
In order to make more accurate stuff, then the towns should also be made more accurate in size (bigger, most of them are to small), which means that there would be a lot more objects on the map… something that could be a problem to get correct fps…

 

 

HotTom, on 18 May 2012 - 13:22, said:

 

Brilliant!

This would be a major addition for bomber simulation!

I really hope the work you've done moves forward!


HT

 

 

AnKor85, on 18 May 2012 - 13:24, said:

 

Rama,
Hmm yes, I've noticed that cities in game are rather small. I haven't checked but I have a feeling that railway station from this topic won't fit properly into the designated place in Amiens.
And FPS is a thing to keep in mind too. I've noticed from the forums that there are a lot of people with relatively weak PCs and the game engine has some odd limitations about object count.

And I understand what you say about getting reference data, but at least something is still better than nothing. If we could get some examples like the one Waxworks posted it already makes a big difference.

 

 

hq_Jorri, on 18 May 2012 - 13:29, said:

 

Fantastic pioneering! Thank you, guys. This opens the door to more immersive maps, maps set in different moments with appropriate trenches, and entirely new maps as well. I can't wait to see what this brings.

A joint effort to make an improved map that tye devs can then use to replace the current one, sounds like a good idea also, to get the best result.

 

 

Rama, on 18 May 2012 - 13:44, said:

 

If it's supposed to be Amiens rail station, no it won't fit.
Amiens railway station was of the "terminal type", with 6 track ending of the station building and a seven continuing to the SW.
I can send you a map for the position if you want.

 

 

Rama, on 18 May 2012 - 13:49, said:

 

Yes, it can help to improve from place to place…. but even there, the full-scale photo would be better than just the quicklook (where you can't even see the rail tracks)… and to get the full-scale photo, you have to pay….

My personal problem is quite different, since I need to get good map references for full map coverage. And for the Italian front map, I'm still searching….

 

 

AnKor85, on 18 May 2012 - 13:51, said:

 

Hmmm… You seem to know a lot about this topic. 
Sorry I'm relatively new here and don't know you, are you somehow involved in map making for ROF?
Well yes, the map will be useful. Thanks.

And I actually suspected that Amiens should have a terminal station, I've just used it as an example for relative area and choosen Amiens because I mostly do all my experiments around this city 

I see. No, I think I'm not ready yet to pay to be able to work to improve a game that I've paid a lot for 
Anyway we'll see what can be found. Piece by piece. We'll see.

 

 

Rama, on 18 May 2012 - 14:16, said:

 

Well… as you can see with my post-counter, I don't post often on the forums (and only since recently on the public forums)… so it's not really your fault if you don't know me… 
Yes, I'm involved in map making for RoF, with the dev, since end of 2005 (for the actual in-game map) and was "reactivated" by Viks for the Channel map.

Send me a PM with your e-mail and I'll send you what I have.

Well… even if I bought some licences for this game (for me and some friends) when it was released, it did cost me much less than the historical maps I used for references.
But of course, it's only a personal choice 

 

 

Waxworks, on 18 May 2012 - 18:52, said:

 

There's possibly a few here this is a depot at Lille

Main index

 

 

navair2, on 18 May 2012 - 19:42, said:

 

I'm sure this has probably been said in other topics or by PM, but why not "split" the current Career Mode / SP map in a similar way to what Red Baron 3D did with its limited resources?

Dividing the current map into smaller "sectors" would help to alleviate the resource problem while enabling more ground and air objects in a tighter space…in addition, institute a load screen when going from one sector to another along the Front similar to what Fallout: New Vegas did when they ran into difficulties with their own usage of resources when designing and implementing the city of New Vegas.

At any rate, nice work on the rail yards gentlemen. 

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 18 May 2012 - 21:00, said:

 

Very nice AnKor and Difis.

I suggest Vander, AnKor and Difis (or others) work together and send me a plan to add more stuff to the map like improved train stations, factories and other points of interest etc. and we can add into the game permanently like we have done before with Vander's vilages etc. Pooling resources and talking to Rama who knows our system quite well can probably produce some stellar results.

I don't mind paying for quality work, but some coordination by a serious team is needed.

Edit: Sorry let me be more clear. A team does the work and we import into the game as permanent like we did with Vander's previous work.

Edit 2: Splitting the map into smaller ones cannot work.

Edit 3: Do not make anything larger than what you already see in ROF or you will run into problems.

Jason

 

 

=Fifi=, on 18 May 2012 - 21:04, said:

 

I think it's possible to use google earth to find the exact right place for big cities railroad stations, and match the ROF map.

As example, here is a picture of Nancy station in 1917:



With google earth, we can see the actual station is exactly at the same place, and even some 1917 buildings (red arrow pointing) and bridges/streets are still here!



Then, it would be possible to match the right place for giving ROF Nancy a new big railroad station, in regard of the river position for instance (things that didn't mouve since 1917):



 

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 18 May 2012 - 22:45, said:

 

Thank you Ankor85 for the pm heads up on this topic 
Im sorry i have not been on the forums much , been busy and since talking to you last,,, things have got a little crazy in real life events.
I have built a full size Hurricane ww2 RAF Fighter plane Great Fun 

Ankor WOW this is what i have been waiting for and getting frustrated with for so long…Please i would like to know how the place ment is done for roads and railway

Will cars follow the road
Do you have same issue with roads as you see with train


DifiS You are a legend i really like texture and life you bring

I do have questions ,,, many of them

Please i would like to learn how to place 2 roads ,and so i understand how the 2 roads CROSS over X Junction
Please i would like to learn to do same with Railway lines
I realise Trench line is Multiple times more harder because of grid partern

Excellent News

DiFiS
And
AnKor85

Guru's and very Welcome


I would also like to ADD items

1. Building ,basic 4 wall and roof building, i can make mgm file but not .col file, i know txt file is needed to be present but .col file is not made , maybe DiFiS can answer but my Russian is aweful and i wish i could climb the barricade of languages but bad education tawns me

2. Add Bush / Shrub again .Col file halts us , Mgm file made

3. Add Palm Tree , but this i believe is same as Bush or Shrub high plant only col file altitude is different as billboards are larger

4. Add Trench line 3D
( Object that sits ontop of trench texture hidding the standard texture that has Raised Ground with proper trenchline and soldiers within trench , maybe animated basic movement )

5. this question is more to the mapmaker guru's 10 x 10 tile cards = 100 base textures , I would like to TEST and make 20x20 tiles and 40 x 40 tiles and 50 x 50 tiles to SEE how much CPU it holds in usage of rendering large base textures.
Maybe DiFis or Rama or Taleks2 can answer and save us time testing.
The reason for Larger tile cards than 10x10 is the repaeting texture limits the deatil that can be added to the base layers , imagine DifiS textures on the base layer tiles and then NEW substrate textures ontop to add greater detail 10x10 tiles on say verdun map reparts around 42 times so verdun map 5x5DF is actually around 4200 tiles in total ( roughly )
If we have 65 x 65 tile base carpet ,,, this would be around the same size as the verdun map but every tile would be original and every tile could be unique and decoration added to the unique places ,,,, trench lines could be added EASY and offroad car / truck , tank tracks in ground , old craters in green grass near no-mans-land ,,,, DiFiS footpaths and Village Gardens and pathways , roadside paths can be added , muddy and dry paths to trench lines , snow drifts or River Crossings , imagination and Decoration Starts at Base tile Carpet and built upward with DiFiS textured alive substrate compliments.



Granted first step is Road and Rail , but No.1 is next goal


Best Regards
Tony

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 19 May 2012 - 01:42, said:

 

I feel like i am going to School for first time 

Willing Student awaiting The Teachers

Roads & Railway Subject Lesson please !
We can re-texture the roads and landscape , even trees (Need Lesson for later ,is Adding tree ) Col. files


BUT !

We can not control the Roads 

I realise you all live the other side of the World from us Oceanic's , but i close my eyes and concentrate very hard with Telepathy ….two words…

Wake Up !

 

 

catchov, on 19 May 2012 - 01:50, said:

 

Ah I see. Rama is working on the channel map. What a great opportunity to put this great discovery by AnKor and Difis to good use on both sides of the channel. Splendid stuff gentlemen!

 

 

=Fifi=, on 19 May 2012 - 02:20, said:

 

Is that a ROF winter main road you made?? 

If so, it has to be include!! Looks a real one 

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 19 May 2012 - 02:25, said:

 

Fife 

We re-textured the Verdun small map to Desert and then re-textured road to sand/muddy gravel roads ,Railway to more correct desert railway ground textures,,, but the Trees we hate = look wrong 
so stopped working on the maps and wait for 777 free time on how to ADD palm tree and bush / shrubs to make map more like desert terrain, we even made mini maps

 

 

AnKor85, on 19 May 2012 - 02:55, said:

 

I'll post how I made that railway station. The problem is while the workflow is not really difficult, it is very convoluted and includes a lot of obscure steps. In fact the full workflow involves using some developer-provided tools which are documented only in Russian, and I'm going to skip those steps, because I'm not fully understand them. If only I had enough time I could make a better map making tools but my main project here is a mission editor and I don't want to hamper its progress anymore (it is already taking way too long).

First of all, we need to get roadssystem.ini file for the map we are going to mod. If we are speaking about the main map then it will be in graphics3.gtp archive.
Now, that ini file contains following lines:
RailRoads_SAVE_LOAD_MODE=2
HighWays_SAVE_LOAD_MODE=2
Trenchs_SAVE_LOAD_MODE=2
Guess what? Value 2 means - "load", 0 means - "ignore", and finally 1 means - SAVE! The game (and mission editor) actually contain built-in road generator that will create all necessary binaries on first load. Amazing. And I already found that two months ago, but there is a some quirks that prevented me from getting any meaningful results.

First of all at the most important!
If you are made a new map like LANDSCAPE_Railways and even specify its path in roadssystem.ini
BinaryPath=graphics\Landscape_Railways\Roads\Binary
IT JUST WON'T WORK! You'll get empty binary files.
I this is what I didn't know two months ago. Only recently (thanks to DiFiS and Viks) I have learned that binary generation works only for the main LANDSCAPE folder.
So. To avoid ruining the main map, you should do the following:
1. Make a backup copy of your LANDSCAPE\Roads folder in the game directory
2. Delete all .bin files inside LANDSCAPE\Roads and LANDSCAPE\Roads\Binary. But don't delete the folders! And you will have to delete those .bin files each time you want to generate new road data.
3. Enable modifications in the game launcher. You will need it to let the game read your new .ini files.
4. Copy your roadssystem.ini into LANDSCAPE\Roads\ (make sure it contains a line BinaryPath=graphics\Landscape\Roads\Binary )
5. Copy your source ini files (i.e. roads.ini, railroads.ini and trenchs.ini) into LANDSCAPE\Roads
6. Launch the game or mission editor for any mission that uses the main map.

Depending on the complexity of the road data it may take some minutes to build them. On my i7 860 rebuilding the whole roads, rails and trenches for original main map took about 15 minutes (I didn't counted).

I have attached an example for my railyard that has prepared ini files for steps 4 and 5. It doesn't contain road or trench data and binaries should be automatically built.
Coordinates of the railyard on the main map is 31600,3200 (scroll up from the bottom-left corner).

One more thing to note. Roadssystem.ini has following lines:
HighWaysIni=Roads.ini
RailRoadsIni=RailRoads.ini
TrenchsIni=Trenchs.ini
These are names of source files from which binaries will be built. However, original ini files (that can be found in gtp archives) are called "roadswbridge.ini" and "railroadswbridge.ini" (I'll tell you later why), while trenches are correct. So if you want to try and rebuild original ones you need to make sure that names of your source files actually match the ones referenced in roadssystem.ini.

 

Railroads.zip

 

 

AnKor85, on 19 May 2012 - 02:59, said:

 

After you have built the binaries (they are found both in Landscape\Roads and Landscape\Roads\Binary) you can place them in any map folder, all you need to use them is a correct BinaryPath in your roadssystem.ini
BinaryPath=graphics\Landscape_Railways\Roads\Binary
For comparison here is a new map with already processed railyard binaries that can be used mods off:
 LANDSCAPE_Railways.zip

I have yet to tell how source ini files are edited.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 19 May 2012 - 03:18, said:

 

OK so must use Landscape as foundation for new roads , but once madethese files can be transported to new maps and work correctly

Ankor how do you control the location of placement
1,10000 115,10000 120,10000 140,10000 400,10000
120,10000 122,10000.5 138,10000.5 140,10000
122,10000.5 124,10001, 136,10001 138,10000.5
115,10000 117,9999 130,9999

How is this understood = source 


Amazing its been under my nose all this time 
i feel shamed, i have not noticed it only used landscape folder 

 

 

AnKor85, on 19 May 2012 - 03:27, said:

 

Intended workflow for authoring ini files is again quite convoluted.

They should be edited in SVG format, exported using a special script into .ini files, these ini files are them processed with special utilities that generates proper crossroads and bridges (for those places where roads intersect rivers). Well, as I said the process is documented only in Russian and actually is not something that I want to use or translate.

In fact, you don't need any scripts and special utilities, if you do everything carefully.
SVG format is actually a XML based one, which means that it is just a plain text with vector definitions.
Game ini files are also a plain text with coordinate pairs. And you know what - you can just copy-paste that text data from SVG into INI.

I'm not good at SVG tools (I don't even know them, is it Adobe Illustrator? Corel Draw? something free, perhaps?). But I'll try to describe the process as I understand it.

Roadsystems.ini contain following lines
Map_Width=14336.0
Map_Height=11264.0
Map_ScaleFactor=25.0
That is for main map. And this is for Verdun:
Map_Width=1024.0
Map_Height=1024.0
Map_ScaleFactor=50.0

This means that for Verdun you'll have to create a 1024*1024 vector drawing where each unit is 50 meters. For main map the scale is 25 meters per unit.

Then you draw roads/railways and trenches (in different files of course) using something called "polyline", i.e. a line with many vertices.
As I was told, though haven't verified, intersections must be done only where a vertex is present in both polylines. Example: let's make a cross.
Coordinates for first polyline:
2,5 7,5 9,5 – this is a horizontal line starting from 2 running to 9 and 5 units from the top. Ingame for Verdun map it will have a length of (9-2)=7*50=350m and will be placed 5*50=250 meters from the top of the map. The vertex 7,5 would be unnecessary if we wanted just a line, but since we are going to make a cross it is needed as a coordinate for cross road. So the second polyline will be vertical:
7,3 7,5 7,8 – runs vertically 7 units (350m) from the left side of the map. Will cross the first road and point (7,5).

By the way the game automatically produces routing info – trains were able to use sidings a my mission built on top of railways map.
However, there's one small glitch with trains (I don't know if it applies to vehicles and roads too) – the game automatically places and aligns them to the nearest railroad even if you missed a bit in mission editor. However, in the railyard sidinds example tracks are pretty close and the game may confuse one for another - that's how DiFiS unintentionally got two engines on the same track. I have yet to research how to counter the problem.

So, I was speaking about coordinates, but again how to extract them from SVG?
This is a part of SVG file:
…cut…
<polyline …cut… points="0,133.854 33.287,130.854 …cut… 1017.287,350.854 1024,353.479 "/>
<polyline …cut… points="254.954,0 258.287,2.855 …cut… 276.754,164.025 274.455,168.688 "/>
…cut…
You see the points="…" are actually stored in exactly the same format as ini files.
Each polyline should be stored as new text line for ini file.
Of course, copy-pasting them manually is a stupid waste of time and that's why I'm going to make an utility that at least allows to convert ini to svg and back again.

Also bridges require a bit of tricky approach. I have yet to verify everything. But again - I'll better make a tool that auto processes everything rather than describe workarounds in my bad English /forum/public/style_emoticons/phpbb/icon_e_smile.gif

Yep, the same feeling. And I have asked Viks on Sukhoi forums, but I was asking a wrong question. That's why I say big thanks to DiFiS as he knows what to ask devs for /forum/public/style_emoticons/phpbb/icon_e_smile.gif

Hope this post answers your question.
With a 25m/unit scale of the main map the following line
1,10000 115,10000 120,10000 140,10000 400,10000
translates to (measured from the top-left corner):
from 25m,25*10000m to 115*25m,250000m to 120*25m,250000 etc

Note that coordinates you see in mission editor use different origin - they are measured from bottom-left corner and instead of X,Y use Z,X notation where the first coordinate is vertical. Quite confusing at first.

PS: I've started to read your post about Hurricane, amazing job there! 

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 19 May 2012 - 03:45, said:

 

you have popped my thoughtz and eyes

WoW

I have to try this 

By the way , your English is excellant !
Never dout this fact ~!~

DiFiS and Viks Amazing 
I wish them the very Best Vodka !

Ankor85 Thank you I may hit brain fade or brick wall , i will test out roads and see what vehicles do under testing , but this post is golden and Guru status

Well Done !

Best Regards
Tony

 

 

Waxworks, on 19 May 2012 - 04:51, said:

 

If there is going to be another map upgrade, would it be possible to have towns near the front like Ypres as ruined rather than in almost pristine condition? Is there any extra performance hit from ruins?

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 19 May 2012 - 05:04, said:

 

To Waxworx: No, there is no fps hit and you can easily destroy buildings in the mission editor, by changing the damage groups. So you may destroy Ypres yourself 
One "problem" though, there are several special objects such as the Ypres Cloth Hall, the Cathedrals etc.. they have no damage model!

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 19 May 2012 - 05:07, said:

 

About the rail yard add-on. I think this will be great to have. But be pragmatic about it. Getting all this done 100% historically correct will a) take so much time that it will never be completed  not possible anyway given the limitations in 3d objects, number of textures we can use etc.

 

 

Rama, on 19 May 2012 - 05:38, said:

 

It doesn't work exactly that way.
For the crossroad generator to work without problems, each polyline should start from a crossroad (or a single point) and end in a crossroad (or a single point). A polyline shouldn't cross another. And the coordinates of the polyline end points on a crossroad should be exactlythe sames.
Also when 2 lines are ending on the same crossroad, the angle between the 2 lines should be more tnan 20° (and preferably more than 30°).
The same rules apply to crossroads and to crossing railways.

For creating SVG files some possibilities:
- creating them directly with Illustrator on a map background (I don't find it easy to do this way)
- using a GIS (some are freeware like QGIS) to create shapefiles. This allows to use GIS topology tools that will do part of the work for you (cutting polylines so they exactly end on crossroads, merging polylines when 2 forms a continuous road, verifying the 20° angle spec, searching for crossroad errors, etc…), then converting the shapefile vector files into SVG files (possible with a specific free plugin on QGIS for example).

I can provide the map background (assembled 1900 editions maps, scanned and assembled, projected in the proper game geometry, at different resolution (10m, 25m, 50m)) if a team wants to start this map upgrading task.

 

 

Rama, on 19 May 2012 - 05:46, said:

 

I totally agree with you.
Adding some "believable" railway depots in correct location would be a nice upgrade (or near correct location, it would be for example preferable to move the depots nearer to the actual towns than to expand towns to make them more historical - as Jason recommended not to do)

And to do everything 100% historically correct would be anyway impossible (lots of the railway depots didn't exist at war beginning, you can't find aerial photographs covering all railway locations, and most of them are payware anyway)

 

 

AnKor85, on 19 May 2012 - 07:10, said:

 

Rama, thanks, it is a good info. I haven't really verified how cross roads are made. And good idea about using QGIS.
We absolutely need to understand all details and limitation before starting actual mapping work. Right now I'm writing some helper tools for SVG<->INI conversion (I don't like how it is done with a perl script right now). Then we will see what else could be simplified.

And I agree that we can't do everything 100% historically correct and shouldn't even try because it is a waste of time.

 

 

navair2, on 19 May 2012 - 09:39, said:

 

Ok Jason, thanks for the reply to my particular suggestion.

I was just throwing that out to see if it was viable. I'm sure the team is addressing everything it can to work in the additions needed to keep ROF alive and growing, and I realize there will be restrictions in what the current game engine is able to handle.

Thanks to the dev team and others of the community who are able to tackle these details and give the rest of us a simulation far better than ROF was originally. 

 

 

redcoat22, on 19 May 2012 - 10:05, said:

 

I spent an hour researching aerial pictures of our frontline towns and it was definitely harder than I expected. I agree we need to manage our expectations on 100% historical accuracy.

I don't know what exact day our current map is pegged but they are right about some of these frontline towns should be rubble from previous offensives.

Jason mentioned paying for quality work but I would prefer to do this ourselves given that 777 will be spending enough on internal resources by simply agreeing to implement these changes. That said, if someone needs a picture or reference material purchased PM me the details and I will pay for the items you need.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 19 May 2012 - 10:08, said:

 

Rama , i have to ask.

10 x 10 carpet tiles , have you tried making lets say 30 x 30 or dare i say it 50 x 50 carpet tiles

Would these carpet tiles Cause major processing on cpu , i have been told they load up on mission load out but i just can not see why it would cause cpu issues.

Is it more possible that the reason for 10 x 10 = 100 carpet tiles , is for speed of map making the carpet base layer texture.

PS.
Thank you for the information on crossroads , i know the X junction was the key but nice to see confirmation and 20-30Degree limits

 

 

AnKor85, on 19 May 2012 - 10:58, said:

 

navair2, I believe (though I'm not an expert) that splitting the map won't actualy give many benefits in performance terms, but instead introduce other issues. So it is good to have one big map.

redcoat22, good attitude! 
What I think is that for start we should choose one city that we want to work on. And then see what can be done. Rama sent me a couple of Amiens photos (and after looking at them I agree that it is a hard work to recreate something when you can barely see details). We've seen picture for Cambrai and Lille by Waxworks and ChiefRedCloud, and there were also some pics by Fifi for Nancy (do we have this city present on ROF map?). And sorry if I missed anything I haven't looked at everything in detail, but all input is appreciated!
And before starting the actual mapping I need to prepare some tools. It shouldn't take long because the task is quite straightforward (unlike a mission editor).

Rama, O_Wolfpac,
I became curious about junctions only at starting points and 20 deg and done some experiments that show that there are actually no such limitations in game.
I have used railways to test and see that both rendering and routing ingame can handle very sharp angles. And for junctions everything works just as I posted: the only requirment is to have a vertex on both roads at the same coordinate. That vertex can be in the middle of polyline.

You mentioned a crossroad generator. Is it a special tool from devs? I've only seen bridge generator which I haven't tried to use yet. What if those limitation are actually flaws of the generator and not the game engine?

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 19 May 2012 - 11:47, said:

 

Ankor i have learned to listen and take advise i believe 20 / 30 degree rule is important and i can not say why because i do not know the answer but i remeber and do as rule says.

We made many plane exterior 3d models before , listening properly and did as told 
Now we see technics save time in the long run , it all comes down to personal quality the creator is always the worst critic

Maybe the 20/30 degree is for vehicles , so the AI truck can drive round corner correctly without hitting house and old lady in the back garden
Maybe its so train does not spawn two locomotives or clash and spawn incorrect location.

Maybe


20 -30 degree is fine with me , its not hard to check
Easy to resolve

 

 

Rama, on 19 May 2012 - 12:23, said:

 

@WolfPac
I haven't played with the texture map and tiles, I just worked collecting historical maps and deriving from them the basic maps (altitude, water, vegetation, roads and railroads), so I can't answer your question. I hope Viks may answer it (I'm also interested by the answer).

@AnKor
When I worked for the maps, I asked for precise specifications, but not for the reasons of these specs.
What I tell you is what was told to me. I of course believe you when you say that files not respecting the specification may work with the graphic engine for crossroad rendering… but maybe, as WolfPac pointed, the specifications may exist for other reasons in game.

I'm probably not curious enough… sorry… 

 

 

LordNeuro_Srb, on 19 May 2012 - 12:43, said:

 

I like how thise tread is growing in positive spirite and same wery nice dedication from all involved. Same of the best things in games happend with gr8 dedication and will, just to menchen the red orchestra made as mod for ut2003. I would love to help if there is somthing i cann do or tray to do for rof. I hope we cann help the team to make it even beter game then it is now.
 

 

 

AnKor85, on 19 May 2012 - 13:30, said:

 

LordNeuro, thanks! 

Rama, O_WolfPac,
Ok, I got it about specifications. I just like to push everything to its limits and beyond 
And speaking of map tiles, something like 20x20 seems viable but I just don't have any time to test it. As I said before its not about CPU, its about Video RAM.

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 19 May 2012 - 14:41, said:

 

If you are planning on making new textures you are going to run into the same problems we do with memory usage and then you will run into Loft and Han telling you no you can't do something. I would discuss whatever plans you come up with, with me, Han and Loft before wasting a bunch of time.

The community has bigger eyes than ROF's stomach and they do not always understand that there are limitations in not just our engine, but all game engines. As was stated above, be pragmatic in your plan and don't try to push the team to do something they say cannot be done right now. Building new rail stations and other stuff on the big map is not the team's priority right now, but if you can do something cool without involving the team much and can be dropped into the sim without much fuss we can look at including it. Just as we did with Vander's fantastic village work.

Again, be pragmatic. Learn what you can do and start small and build from there.

P.S. I'm all for improving the map, always have been, but it needs to be done in a way that is practical and respects the limits of our technology. Even with some limitations, a lot can probably be done to add cooler stuff to the ROF world. Just taked time and some a dedicated team.

Jason

 

 

=Fifi=, on 19 May 2012 - 17:17, said:

 

Yes, it's East-South East of ST Mihiel area.
Very South of Pont-a-Mousson on front line.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 19 May 2012 - 23:58, said:

 

AnKor85

Is it possible to reverse engineer the data for railways we have presently ingame = turn the data into an actual editable QGIS item

The Towns are in the right places just smaller in diameter than true values we accept thats a limitation and the railway is in true location but a rail yard or station if placed in true locations ,,would not LOOK close to the town ingame ….

So can we move the railway closer to the town while adding the railyard or station at the same time

Granted the Historian anarak fan will go into a tizwaz rant we all love to read them , but it solves the issue of ADDING new building which causes more hassles than re-routing a railway line closer to the ROF Town so the station is more eyecandy correct.

How do we reverse engineer the data we already have with rail.
To find the location of the railway and a good point to edit from this point towards the town or village and them back towards the original railway again , to do this within the data would be a nightmare unless we can convert it back to something workable.

 

 

=Fifi=, on 20 May 2012 - 00:03, said:

 

Wouldn't be easier for you to add few houses blocks, to extend a little the town toward the station?

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 20 May 2012 - 00:17, said:

 

Yeah adding building is an option , but in some places the ROF town / city is much smaller than true life and when you add up all the building overall thats a lot of buildings added , which must cause usage issues.
Not alot of people realise that PARIS does not Exist in the Large Map of ROF, granted its in a location you would not fly so no need to build it as it would cause a usage issue,,,, its all compromises. ( Bottom left of the large rof map )

Fifi i realise you know this but some dont 

if the railway is re-routed towards the city/towns in some cases ,this would solve and SAVE buildings being added to a city or large town.

 

 

AnKor85, on 20 May 2012 - 00:20, said:

 

@Jason,
Sure. I understand the nature of limitations, I'm a programmer not in game development thought.
When I say that we aren't going to make everything 100% historical, I don't mean that I want to make it 99%, instead even something like 10% resemblance (if it was quantifiable) to the actual imagery will be enough. The main task is to make map improvements believable and good for the gameplay purposes.

@O_WolfPac,
yes, at first I'm going to convert ingame ini into editable svg. I haven't yet looked at QGIS, perhaps it can read svg via plug-ins (Rama said it can export, but maybe import too).

Don't understand words here, but I think I know what you mean 

Sure, we will have to move historical railyards closer into cities, and perhaps scale them down. I don't want to make bigger cities unless absolutely necessary (and even then limit additions by one or two blocks) because I don't want to run into CPU/RAM limitatins and be told by devs that it won't work.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 20 May 2012 - 00:38, said:

 

Ankor85, DiFis and Viks you have popped my thoughts , this open door allows so much extra.

Ankor in some cases would it not be easier to use your example

leave the original railway present in true location and create new railway line that goes into town and city with station / railyards DiFis substrate present

This would keep historical people happy ( Historical Anoraks ) and save adding buildings
A blend of commonsense and realistic balancing

Do the Substrate textures cause issues if alot of them are added to the large map ?
Do trenchlines run by the same rules as railway and road?

 

 

AnKor85, on 20 May 2012 - 00:45, said:

 

I will see what can be done, but yes I'm going to make use of substrates by DiFiS. I have yet to see though how game engines handles a lot of them.

And yes, trenches are the same. Except that AFAIK they don't have any rules for intersections because well, there don't need any routing 

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 20 May 2012 - 00:56, said:

 

Might be time to ask Loft and Hans the correct important questions
Do the Substrate textures cause issues if alot of them are added to the large map ?
Do New Railway Textures and New Roads textures cause issues if alot of them are added to large map ?


Most of the added substrates textures and rail n road could be added along and either side of no-mansland to reduce overall workload , no need to texture paris as an example.

 

 

AnKor85, on 20 May 2012 - 03:26, said:

 

We should have at least something to show before bothering devs.
After all, once we start workng, I think we will be able to find some people with lower-end PCs (like LordNeuro*Srb* who has already mentioned that he has a "crappy PC" and is willing to help) and see how more detailed map works for them.

Here is recommended system requirments from this site:
CPU Intel® Core™ 2 Quad 2.6 GHz+ or Intel® Core™ i5/i7 2.6 GHz+
GPU 1024 Mb+, GeForce GTX 260+/Radeon HD5850+
RAM 4 Gb+

My 2.5 year old PC matches them almost perfectly:
Win 7 x64, i7 860 2.8 GHz, 1024 Mb GTX 285, 4 Gb RAM.

I don't know what minimum specs are but suppose that the most important differences are 32 bit Windows (and thus less usable RAM) and only 512 MB on video card. And as I said CPU shouldn't be important for map details, only RAM (both system and video).

 

How do i rotate a tile carpet file = 1 of the 10x10 =100 carpet files
How do i ADD more tile lines , to lets say map 20x20 carpet


Minimum System Requirements Windows XP / Vista:
Internet Connection required for registration and for certain features. Windows XP (SP2 or higher), Vista (SP1). Intel Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz, 2 GB Ram, 10 GB Space, DirectX 9.0c, 512 MB GeForce 8800GT / Radeon HD3500, Sound Card Direct X 9.0c compatible, 256/kps internet connection.

Minimum System Requirements Windows 7:
Internet Connection required for registration and for certain features. Windows 7. Intel Core 2 Quad 2.6GHz, 4 GB Ram, 10 GB Space, DirectX 9.0c/11, 512 MB GeForce 8800GT / Radeon HD3500, Sound Card Direct X 9.0c/11 compatible, 256/kps internet connection.

 

 

Rama, on 20 May 2012 - 09:05, said:

 

The GGIS Plugin nor any freeware I know allows you to convert svg in a geolocalized vector file (as shapefile for example), so I don't think you can use svg files into QGIS, unless developping a specific converter in shapefile (or another known GIS format, limited to the basic polylines which are the only kind of vector objects used for the roads and railroads). Even then you have to know the cartographic projection parameters used for the in-game map that you can find below:
Map projection: extended Lambert II (I can provide this map projection parameters if needed)
X Origin (bottom left corner): 572320m
Y Origin (bottom left corner): 2357400m
to convert the in-game coordinate in Lambert II coordinate, you just have to add to this the game distance to the bottom left corner.
I need to verify if the above coordinates are correct (if the game map wasn't a bit cropped in the bottom). I'll do it on monday.

Using QGIS is ok when you have an historical map in any kind of geolocalized raster format (as geoTIFF for example), and when you digitize vector forms directly on it in geolocalized vector formats.

If converting the roads and railroads vector into any kind of GIS format is to complicated, then the only viable option is to use Adobe Illustrator drawing software instead.

 

 

AnKor85, on 21 May 2012 - 03:45, said:

 

I've installed QGIS but this tool seem too professional for me. We aren't going to remake road/railway network from scratch but just at some detail at important points like cities and towns.

As for converting into shapefile, it may be possible. According to wikipedia there are 3 mandatory files:
.shp — shape format; the feature geometry itself
.shx — shape index format; backwards quickly
.dbf — attribute format; columnar attributes for each shape, in dBase IV format

First two seem to be very simple binary files and (of course, knowing the right projection) and I should be able to convert ini/svg into them easily. dBase IV is common (and very old) format but first I need to get specification for required attributes… But actually I'm not going to do it, because as I said using QGIS seems to be an overkill for this task.
Though, Rama, if you are interested in converting SVG into shapefiles, I may take a look at it someday later. Maybe it will be useful for your tasks.

 

 

Rama, on 21 May 2012 - 11:42, said:

 

Yes, and as I said, Adobe Illustrator should be good enough for this task (even if it's not very userfriendly).

Not really… since I'll keep both the shapefiles and the SVG files for the Channel map and for the project I'm curently working on.

But thank you anyway for your proposal.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 21 May 2012 - 17:19, said:

 

Ankor,

How did you find the correct location on the map , within the text co-ordinates of the example new railway lines?

You really have popped my mind with this and i still can not make a road but im not giving up now i now its possible 

By the way i think ,, think i know why your loco engine spawned twice , it could be the textures overlap and cause the issue if the siding rail lines are placed further apart maybe the issue resolves its self automatically
The rail way textures do extend a ling way either side of the rail tracks ,,, just a thought 

How did you find the correct location on the map , within the text co-ordinates of the example new railway lines? is all i want to know 

Would be great is the DiFiS texture concept was allowed multiplayer to be added in a more easier way , more compatible version , like a Mask but with greater detail (shaper line content)

Still havent worked out how to rotate tiles of the carpet or add afew extra lines of carpet tiles.

Lucas knows but he's a work-aholic 

 

 

AnKor85, on 22 May 2012 - 00:42, said:

 

INI and map use different origin: ini file is just like a normal image uses left-top corner as 0,0 with X being the first coordinate and Y the second. Map uses bottom-left corner as 0,0 with X being the second coordinate.
To convert from ini into main map coordinates use the folloing formula:
mapZ = 281600 - (iniY * 25)
mapX = iniX * 25
Where 281600 is the vertical size of the map and 25 is the scale as stated in roadssystems.ini. For verdun/lake the scale is 50 and the map height is 51200.
Converting back into ini will look like:
iniX = mapX / 25
iniY = (281600 - mapZ) / 25

Or just wait a bit. I hope to make necessary conversion tools this week 

Yes, I actually think the same - rails are actually wider that their visible part.

Yeah, making sharper is impossible but if at least it was possible to add substrates into mission without making a new map.

There's a line in textures.ini:
orientationmap=landscape\graphics\oreintationmap.bmp
and then there are 4 more lines (don't remember exact values, but something like):
[orientation]
0 = 0
128 = 180
255 = 270
Can't check now, my gaming PC is disassembled 
That orientation map is a bmp in which colors are represent orientation of each tile. You can find it by extracting graphics3.gtp.

New tiles are adding in similar - color-coded in "teturemap.bmp" (I think) and what each color means is stated under [texture_color] section in textures.ini

 

 

J5_Wolf, on 22 May 2012 - 02:51, said:

 

Im really looking forward to this becoming a regular part of this game….nice work indeed!

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 23 May 2012 - 00:47, said:

 

Thank you AnKor 

I think i see what you mean and will give it a go , made new backup because i think i may mess up alot but its not the first time 

trial and error have been my footsteps for many years

 

 

AnKor85, on 23 May 2012 - 05:35, said:

 

I've made some SVG files from ingame INI for all 3 maps (note that Verdun and Lake don't have trenches).

Though I have to say I'm not familiar with any appropriate SVG editors and just tried a free one "Inkscape" but didn't like it at all.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:59, said:

 

If this is an exact conversion Ankor the railway Yards and Stations can be added to this template and then once all stations are added converted back again 


Thank you 

Thank YOU VERY MUCH !!!

This also could be the way we can move the trench lines and have NEW MASK Files to Accommodate the new trench line placement ,,, the only other thing that would be required is to move the No.mans-land Dust in the air above the mud and i found the texture file by accident afew days ago 


So again

THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH !!!

 

 

ROSS_DiFiS, on 23 May 2012 - 09:31, said:

 

Import SVG format to CorelDraw succes!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WW1EAF_Paf, on 23 May 2012 - 09:52, said:

 

Go go go! 

So, theoretically we could have a set of maps reflecting different states of the war.
So have a 1916 and 1917 Map in the dropdownmenue?
Something that would be wonderful for the careermodus.

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 23 May 2012 - 10:21, said:

 

Oh yes! We really need a "Hindenburg Line" map (March 1917 - March 1918)
 

 

 

redcoat22, on 23 May 2012 - 12:27, said:

 

Could you imagine if this was put into the career to reflect historical ground offensives!

 

 

AnKor85, on 23 May 2012 - 14:08, said:

 

While I would love to see a different frontlines for different periods of war this seems to be a hard work.

First of all the map should evolve: as Rama pointed out on page 4 - railway station in Cambrai was only 2 tracks in 1914 but was extended during the war. And I'm sure this is not the only case. Maybe not many but still require additional effort to make thing more historical.

Then the trences. It may not be obvious but they contain more points than all railways and roads combined on the main map. Look at the second screenshot by DiFiS and see how many lines are there representing trenches, how often they turn and have interconnections. Of course we can move them as a whole, stretch some parts and cut others, nobody will notice anyway… though I've seen some topic here telling that we have unhistorical trenches 

As for adding maps into the career mode I believe the main issue will be not something technical but getting squadron placement and stuff like mission objectives right.

You see - something like the railyard from the first page can be drawn in a matter of minutes, but to get things right you need a lot of research before and a lot of testing afterwards. So drawing is just one small part of the task.

Anyway, the main question here: is there anyone who really can spend his time to work on new maps?
Let's assume that we have user-friendly mapping tools (right now we don't, but it can be amended), but do we have users for these tools?

 

 

VonSensburg, on 23 May 2012 - 17:22, said:

 

I'm using Adobe Illustrator daily so if You need any help with it just tell me.

 

 

MarcoRossolini, on 23 May 2012 - 17:34, said:

 

If historic trench maps are part of the bargain, I'll be more then happy to help in anyway, though I'll be relegated to carrying the biscuits most likely because of my wondrous (lack of) technical skills.

 

 

MarcoRossolini, on 23 May 2012 - 17:35, said:

 

Hmm, I wonder if the aerial photographs in the IWM could be accessed if someone was suicidal enough to volunteer themselves for it.

 

 

Rama, on 23 May 2012 - 18:27, said:

 

You're right, that's one of the 2 main questions.
There are many possible maps to build if some peoples are ready to work hundreds of hours on them.

The other main question is about collecting the needed data to built these maps (the historical maps, etc…)….
As an example, for the Italian front map, altitude map and water map are done… continuing the work is impossible without the proper historical maps.

 

 

Laser, on 23 May 2012 - 18:40, said:

 

How about, just to make "your hand at it" (the knowhow, le savoir faire) - how about a small, fictional multiplayer map? It could have interesting lakes, rivers and mountains (if possible) so that many interesting (strategic?) and fictional SP/MP missions may benefit from it. The tools could also continue to develop (get feedback) along with the map.

 

 

Rama, on 23 May 2012 - 19:01, said:

 

I don't know who's "you", but if I'm concerned, here's my answer:
1) I don't need to "make my hand at it", at least for "making mountains, rivers, lakes, roads, railroads, etc…". Textures and 3D buildings is another story, but for other peoples who have the skills to build them (and making maps is a team work anyway).
2) There's no way I will work on a fictional map. Never did (neither for IL2 or for RoF) and never will.

 

 

Laser, on 23 May 2012 - 19:19, said:

 

Thanks for answer, Rama. Yes it wasn't aimed at you as i supposed from the start that you know what you're doing. So it is a question for the other people who want to develop either new maps, or those working on the new tools, and also as a possible semi-solution for the problem of "hard to get/place historical data".

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 23 May 2012 - 20:50, said:

 

Hi

Roads , rail and trenches and even mud and dust in the air over nomansland will work on Fictional Maps And it is something new to fly over this would work while we wait for..

"The English Channel Map" or other historical maps

In Il-2 many campaign competitions used a fictional map of africa and also a mountains map for SEOW or scortched earth style game play.
The Campaigns some multiple spawn some coop style , but they worked.


I think fictional maps made "correctly" would work while proper historical maps are made siliently and with out pressure to complete.
Adding objects like Castle or desert village settlements or palm tree and bush / shrubs , dare i say it a 3D MODEL trench with soldiers in the trench ,,,is what will hold off fictional maps as the public/3rd part can not add content.
We know what triangle/ polygon limits ,we know diffuse rule and res ,we even know to collapse all before export and have the exporter , but the missing link is how to use the exporter correctly and how to make collision model file ( .Col files )

Imagine a 3d model crater that is spawned in on a direct hit on an airfield so it makes taking off from that airfield just that bit more harder afterwards , the normal graphic crater texture appears above an actual 3D crater with collision model , not hard to add content like this to a bombs sequence of events.
The 3d crater can be a timer event and vanish on reset of timer just like the graphic textured crater but a little longer time duration.

As mentioned above a 3D trench line with soldiers ,,, so many imagine this, want this 

Questions pop into my mind of How Large can a 3d object be in rof can one 3d object be 200m long ,500m long , 1 km ? or only 50m = train station , but train station is multiple 3d objects within one mission editor object so multiple trenchlines is possible … granted animation may have to wait or be compromised for greater coverage of trench lines….

3d object content is the next goal

how to export correctly and make damage model and collision model file.
Simple wooden crate as example is all thats needed.

I have mentioned all this in the past , but alas it was not actioned or taken seriously

Edited post as i miss read a different post 
Best Regards
Tony

 

 

redcoat22, on 23 May 2012 - 23:45, said:

 

I would merely suggest a pre and post Hindenburg line map for the career. That represents the largest movement of the trenches from 1915 until near the end of the war.

Baby steps

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 24 May 2012 - 02:00, said:

 

+1

I like all the creative ideas posted here, but it take a ridiculous amount of time to do with a high chance of not finishing it.

If there would be some tools ( don't need to be polished) I would love to make a Hindenburg line map, but it means I can't work an another campaign…..again choices!

 

 

AnKor85, on 24 May 2012 - 03:38, said:

 

Choices… And I still want to make a mission editor! 

Ok, let's say we want to remake the main ROF map with different front line. What we need:
- Height map and rivers - most likely unchanged so we don't need to bother with it (unless you want to show results of Battle of Messines). But if needed - height map and rivers are just bitmaps, easy to edit.
- Forests - may need some alteration, again easy to edit as bitmap.
- Textures - obviously reusing the original. Although may add a few tiles or substrates for some details. Thus need a tile and substrate placement tool.
- Roads, lines, trenches - need specialized vector editor, too tedious to use Corel, Illustrator or any other general purpose tool.
- Processing - some official tools are available but may be hard to use, need to integrate them together for processing map sources "in one click".

Making 3D objects is beyond my interests and knowledge so I can't help with that.

So, perhaps I can make a all-in-ode map editor that will allow to work with different map features as layers thus making it easier to see the results. Plus it will have some processing tools built right into it. Actually this is very straightforward task compared to mission editor.

I can't promise anything but I'll look into it. I can reuse rendering code that I've already made for ME and add some editing features on top of it.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by TG-55Panthercules

[TG-55Panthercules]

Part 2:

 

 

ROSS_DiFiS, on 24 May 2012 - 03:54, said:

 

combined height+river+forest+allroads

 

 

 

 

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 24 May 2012 - 05:29, said:

 

DiFiS 

You got Water !!!

can we now correct Very ,very old mistakes on the map ?

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 24 May 2012 - 05:32, said:

 

One very important thing:

If we do a new version of the Western Front map, with different trench lines, which files should be updated/added and how big are they?
We have to keep in mind the upload costs for 777 if you add this to an update.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 24 May 2012 - 05:56, said:

 

moving nomansland you would have to make a new map name Landscape_Date or something else.

Thats for starters.

Then i think its best to leave alone the height file as its two files linked via bat files i think , could be wrong here but ,,, same for water i think.
Forests would be cut by the mask files so no need to do anything really to trees.
( unless you wanted to correct the forests in places )

List would be roughly as below

Mask files duplicated and placed within the new Landscape_Date folder.
Approx 72 old files corrected 68.0 KB each file
Approx 72 files with new nomansland added 68.0 KB each file
in total approx 9.0 MB

Mini map files and text documents for mini map data to show ingame approx 126 MB size

The texture file that controls the dust in the air over nomansland.
Data for roads corrections
Data for Rail corrections
Data for Trench lines corrections
Road rail,trench files would not be much more than lets say Approx 155 MB in total

Any DDS files of Cities that may need to be retextured because of nomansland.

Cant think of anything else required except alot of retexturing files , removing old blue mask files and adding blue in other locations.
then editing old roads ,rail, trench to new location as well as re-writing the roads n rail that would of been fixed because nomansland moved.

Could get crafty here and leave the old trench lines in location they are present then Re-Texture the original texture to a overgrown grass trenchline like its old and over grown.
Then add new trench line as current textured trench graphics 

Just an idea i do not know history of trench lines so i havent a clue of locations or dates of locations sorry 

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 24 May 2012 - 06:28, said:

 

With the example DiFiS just posted you could correct and rejoin all roads and rail lines across the nomansland we have present then retexture the present trench texture to more overgrown trench then add your dulpicated and cut and paste trench lines to the new locations ,add new mud to new location on mask while correcting old damaged ground of nomansland we have now.

not sure if that makes sense but its not far off a guideline

 

 

-bbob, on 24 May 2012 - 07:15, said:

 

This is excellent!

EDIT: after reading most of this thread, still have to re-read some of ankor's more technical posts because I am just a dumb artist.

But it seems like the bulk of the work is to redo the SVG files? Move trenches, rebuild roads/railway tracks? If that is genuinely the case, I would love to help out with modifying the front lines. It has been a little wet dream of mine for a while.
If we just made the results of the major pushes, it would still not be as big as just the historical skinpacks if WolfPacs numbers are right.

On another note, there was a mention of the requirement of 3D models for certain things: If you know how to get them into the game, tell me what you need done. Also, what sort of tangent space does ROF read normals in, 3ds max compatible?

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 24 May 2012 - 08:17, said:

 

my example of file size is only if you moved ever square foot of nomans_land , always best to look at Max 

 

 

-bbob, on 24 May 2012 - 08:28, said:

 

Very good!

Gonna try having a poke around, expect more stupid questions 

EDIT: So these are the masking BMP's I am guessing (Composite of 117-119, Douai and W)

Is there an easy system to find the exact areas you want?
Not exactly lined up with ingame grid squares, so estimates float by quite a bit the more SE you go.

Each row is 56 squares wide, but the features on the squares does not line up perfectly without squashing them a bit X wise to fit the PDF, so I guess I will have to go by guesstimates.

Derp.

 

 

redcoat22, on 24 May 2012 - 11:52, said:

 

If we agree to make a pre and post Hindenburg line map for ROF, that limits it to only one new map (minus any changes to the existing map) and that seems doable. It would also be a much better representation of the WWI landscape than we have currently allowing proper squadron placement.

Question is, should we not first see if 777 would even consider using a second map so long as it meets their standards?

 

 

WW1EAF_Paf, on 24 May 2012 - 12:03, said:

 

The past has shown Jason and Team are willing to put in community-stuff if it has enough quality.
And if a new map like proposed doesnt eat up more resources I don't see a reason why not.

 

 

redcoat22, on 24 May 2012 - 12:21, said:

 

Yes, but a second map would require coding to have it replace the current map once the Germans redeploy their army to the Hindenburg line in 1918.

 

 

Rama, on 24 May 2012 - 13:23, said:

 

No, the height map will have to be edited (if you recreate roads and railroads in parts of the actual no-mans-land, you need to flatten the height map on and around the roads and railroads locations).
But once it's done, if for following modification you only have to remober some roads and railroads parts… then the same height map can be kept.

I can provide the historical maps to digitize these corrections.

You need historical maps to do this.

 

It might also be an opportunity to alter some of the textures. As it is the entire line looks like the Somme or Ypres area, though Ypres itself, which was desolate, is pristine and if you take the time to reduce cities like Ypres to ruins there is still much untouched foliage, making them look more like ancient temples in the tropics than Great War wastelands.

The Hindenburg Line was even less affected than the quiet sectors of the pre-Hindenburg front. It would be quite wrong to depict the Cambrai sector and south of it as a giant mudblot on the landscape, for instance- at least until after the 1917 offensive had finished. There were even French civilians living in villages in the German front lines before the battle, and one of the problems the Germans had was that Havrincourt Wood provided excellent cover for the build up. The concept of a grass-mud texture sounds appealing.

One vital element of the Hindenburg Line was the acres of wire deployed, partly to compensate for the unspoilt terrain- will we be able to have this? Again, as a texture rather than the 3d object, perhaps?

 

 

AnKor85, on 24 May 2012 - 13:46, said:

 

-bbob, if I recall correctly the minimap is a bit stretched vertically, but I may be wrong.

redcoat22, you have a good point. We don't know if devs are willing to extend the career mode for modified front-lines. I have no idea how much work is required on their side. On the other hand I strongly believe that before bothering devs with questions we must have something to show.

And to be honest I don't play career mode (tried several times but it just don't hook me, mostly because of AI) and thus I would have preferred having custom maps made as mods to be used in MP or user-made missions. Unfortunately this won't work as smooth as official maps because RoF has zero support for mod management. It is one of game's paradoxes: it can be modded to a great extent but it is not mod friendly at all - that ON/OFF switch is all we got and it does nothing if we speak about adding new content. For example, a completely new map may be added in "mods off" mode but game can't verify that each player has the same version and didn't altered it intentionally or not.
Maybe we should go another way and ask devs to add a proper mod management system into the game? Then we won't have to waste their time with such silly stuff like adding new maps… Just kidding 

My opinion: if we want realistic goals let's focus on original intent - to make some railway stations (and maybe other road or trench related map features if anyone has anything to offer).

-Added after seeing a recent post by Rama-

Keeping things historical is another thing that bothers me, but in a bit of different sense. To put it simple: some players want everything to be 100% historically correct and some don't care at all. And of course there are a lot of steps in between, and there will never be an agreement of acceptable degree of correctness. That's a problem for community-made project.
Relaxing realism degree to some extent may be better for gameplay (and for limited resources), but it is easy to slip into fictional territory. And again threshold is diferrent for everyone.

 

 

Rama, on 24 May 2012 - 14:48, said:

 

For modding the French map, it's not absolutely necessary to relax the realism degree beyond the realism degree of the existing map.
Since the historical map reference does exist for this map (and I offered to provide it to anybody wanting to mod the map), it's not a big issue.

For new maps, it will be a problem. as for example for the Italian front map. Some may be ok with modelling forest, a road and rail road network, etc… in their modern shape and location… I just can't…. especially when I know that the historical reference does exist (In Instituto Geographico Militare), but that I don't have access to it since I have no time to go there to get the maps (and don't speak Italian).

I agree it's impossible to model a 100% historical map, not even 80%, and even much less. But when something is possible and the reference exists (it's just the matter to have someone leaving in the right location and wanting to help), then it would bother me tremendously not to use it.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 24 May 2012 - 17:11, said:

 

Rama

We do not have the Height map for large ROF map to correct the landscape and also i was under the impression that the map was 2 maps connected by two files "map2.dat" and "map.dat"

Granted the last time i tried i did big mistake and made res 50m not 25m but like i mentioned i have broken ROF many many times 

Yes it would be nice to correct landscape for roads and rail , i personally would love to fix the water heights on the original map because its been present for soo long.

I do have a editor that can correct hgt but the size of bmp files caught me off guard but now i know its 25m it could be done

 

 

=Fifi=, on 24 May 2012 - 17:15, said:

 

Just for my knowledge, what's wrong with the stock map water height please?

 

 

Waxworks, on 24 May 2012 - 19:13, said:

 

The site I linked earlier in #42 has the entire Hindenburg Line trench map. However as I have most references for Cambrai, I would start there.

Time isn't an issue, it doesn't seem a long project to me. However I would like to be clear what software tools I would need?

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 24 May 2012 - 21:24, said:

 

Hi Fifi,

In i think 8-10 locations the rivers or Lakes are not level and not looking like water should do on earth 

The best example is this one below , which is a 100m - 150m hill with a lake that goes over the top of it 

I found it on the first day of release of Rise of Flight and since then,, many more , granted they look correct when flying normal altitudes but i know its just a height correction to fix them and i know how to fix them but i dont have access to the hieght file before it was converted to a .eat file so they remain stuck in the corner of my eye 



If the nomansland is going to be moved and the roads and rail corrections made then these water issue locatons should also be fixed / flattened especially the one above as its a wonderful location , scenic and picturesque.

I should of been a Beta Tester i nearly was once ,but it never happened.

 

 

=Fifi=, on 24 May 2012 - 21:32, said:

 

Thanks.
I guess only expert eyes could notice it, on our current map; and as you said, must be flying low and slow to notice.
Perso, never saw any water trouble.
Your lake on picture is…incredibly weird 

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 24 May 2012 - 22:14, said:

 

its also in a place the normal flight would not fly , which is why it remains , but maybe its because the correction could not happen , maybe the old original files are lost in archives of rof storage

from 1000m it looks fine , its only if you fly down the valley you see the depth of terrian and see things like this , in reality approx 20 locations maybe 30 if searching.
Normally its a river bank that the water travels up the river bank 10-20foot or a lake that has a small hill in centre or a lake with 2-3 shoreline hills the water runs up and stops near top or goes over the top totally.

Yes i fly low but most i found by looking with the Editor , at first i was trying to find the Memorial Monument , the easter egg locations , and looking for a nice place to have a airfield squadron HQ for joining cadets to run the checkflight mission to join oceanic wing group
Its still an excellent map , please i am not slamming the quality , truth is the beta tester could easy fly past this above picture and see it looking correct , from above , and i know the beta testers were given sectors to fly over and find problems , we are only human , and i would love to fix these things that got missed , i would help who ever takes up the challenge to re-do nomans-land because they will need help and people like these guru map makin mod makers , who have posted here , but before the height files are converted to .eat files so the game can see the new hieght files i would want to flatten out afew sections that just need a touch up 

 

 

=Fifi=, on 24 May 2012 - 22:40, said:

 

Talking about rivers, would it be possible to give them more depth sometimes (meaning the shore level - it's often very flat to my taste) and a flow mouvment?
Actually, rivers have the same look/3D animation than the lakes. I guess it would need a complete new model rework to obtain a nice flow mouvment…

 

 

DidNotFinish, on 24 May 2012 - 22:44, said:

 

I agree with you are far as the depth issue goes. Currently, rivers are at the exact same height as their banks. Adding a little bit of a "depression" at the rivers' edge would give the landscape some depth.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 24 May 2012 - 23:29, said:

 

I do know what you mean , but limitations are something that can allow somethings but not others 

Lets say you wanted a river bank 10foot high cliff edge on the right side of the river bank and a stone pebble shore line on the left river bank as the river turned SHAPE Right turn and 500m down river a small sand beach on the left side of the river as the river turns left.

The textures can be placed and would look great , this is DiFis Subrate texture style and he makes landscape have life !
The Cliff is the problem child 

limitations are the angle of the cliff and hieght of the cliff
I dont know the exact hieght minimum off the top of my head but lets say its 10 foot squares for an example
This means a 10foot cliff can be made but not 15 foot only multiples of 10

granted this is an example the gradiant to vertical can not happen at present so a vertical cliff might look vertical but in truth it will be slightly off vertical if measured.
I think 1 pixel = 25mtr and if im only guessing here because i havent done it to test results but lets say you made flat map but 9 pixels are pure white and all around are pure black , but also the middle of your 9 pixels was also pure black = 0 sea level then you would have a square tower that looks vertical because of its hieght with a square hole inside and very shape edged top to the tower. not flat topped…

I think the hieght is from the middle of the 25m pixel and reacts with its 8 touching partners.

Saying all that 

We have all seen the new water in the Rof Blog and my word its going to change things totally 
So like alot of things sit back have fun and wait for the release because its worth the wait 

 

 

=Fifi=, on 24 May 2012 - 23:44, said:

 

Thanks for those explanations! 

 

 

AnKor85, on 25 May 2012 - 02:12, said:

 

Sure I understand that. But by looking at Amiens photos you sent me I've got a feeling that it won't be easy to follow such references for non-professionals. I can barely see rail tracks there and I know where to look, but for arbitrary places it may be even harder.
Though who said it should be easy? 
On the other hand it still shouldn't take long to draw Amiens railyard for the game using those images - something like a couple of hours.

As for tools, I will try to take care of that - maybe I'll make something new or find a way to simplify the use of exiting ones.

 

 

Rama, on 25 May 2012 - 05:18, said:

 

No, for the altitude map, the old original files (before cropping) still exist (have it on my HD), and the correction (flattening) can be made.
But then you will loose all flatening done by the map processor (flatenning for lakes and rivers, roads and railroads, aerodromes, etc….)
So the best if you want to make the corrections (flatening a few lakes with defaults), you should not start from the original file, but from the in-game height map.

The other option needs a work by the dev (using the original file were the lake with default has been flatened, then playing the map processor with this new height map, the water file, the roads and railroads files, etc…). It would be anyway usefull to run the map processor if you add some roads and railroads inside the no-man's-land….

As long the map SDK isn't released, modding a map for anything which isn't texture and 3D objects will be complicated…. not impossible, but complicated.
Except of course if AnKor85 develop a set of tools that will make eveyrhing easier…. that's why (I guess) he wants to know how much peoples have a strong will to do/mod maps.

 

 

Happyhaddock, on 25 May 2012 - 05:30, said:

 

I've no technical knowledge about such things and suspect that whilst it may be easy to setup if starting from grassroots, it may be much harder to implement into the exisiting software, and this may also be something that others have discussed before, I simply throw the idea into the metaphoprical melting pot for others who may consider it worth pursuing.

We often hear the complaint that "whilst a good idea it(whatever the latest good idea is) would hit system resources too much to be playable"

My experince has been that the map(s) in ROF tend to be much much larger than the area actually flown in any one session. If all sorts of system memory is occupied by landscape way beyond where you can see or will actually fly over would there be some sort of advntage of splitting the large map(s) into smaller chunks. At the start of any mission when loading it you just click the relvant small sections of map to construct the actual landscape available to fly in "in game"

Such an approch might allow more detail to be worked into each chunk of map, allow something like the new channel map to be built as extension sections to the exisiting map rather than soemthing new and separate, and allow those with weaker machines to concentrate only on the smaller parts of the full extensive map relvant to each mission, not run the full large map each time.

Probably loads of technical reasons why this can't be done and I appreciate that it's not just memory issues but GPU processing power that can be limiting if you build more detail into any one area of map but I thought I'd raise the issue for other more knowledgable types to either think about or shoot down in flames if it's obvious why this can't be implemeted.

 

 

Rama, on 25 May 2012 - 06:11, said:

 

To give my opinion shortly: the main reason why this can't be done isn't technical… it's the cost of the development of such a big change.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 25 May 2012 - 06:57, said:

 

Rama Wrote



AnKor85 just so you know i and Oceanic Wing would LOVE to have a tool program or convertor or what ever you call it Especially if this program made life as easy as unpacking gtp files or the program that we us for making water .eat files or making a height file eat file

To make vectors and drag n drop onto a icon like UnGtp unpacker would make us faint , but anything would help greatly.


I know we have been Learning slowly and step by step by making small verdun size maps and i am confident that now we can make roads and rail ,a TOOL would help and be very welcome.

ONE concerning thought is the NEW WATER we see in the BLOG on ROF.
If this new water is a totally different format then your Ankors convertor program would be wasted possibly, maybe not,,, but i would not want to waste your time ankor as i have no clue when the new water is released ,IF a SDK is going to be released for maps , but i see the new Water on the rof blog looks complicated and with different textures and shape models than i have ever seen before ,,,so please take this into account.

Saying all that , ive a desert map that all we need to is alot of substrate texturing , respectfully in DiFiS style and then we need to add Content. (objects)

Bushes , shrubbery , undergrowth , Buildings in desert styles and Palm Tree's

We have the export download plugin,we can export 3d model to mgm file format, but can not translate the instructions for .col files which it did not make in the export , maybe we do it wrongly ( probably) , but maybe its like road,rail,trench file rule ,and has to be placed in correct location first, who knows…. but maybe its something fun for the community to play for fun, in the future.

Granted Rama i know your feeling on fictional and i totally understand your view , i havent released because im a terrable critic and i still would only release if approval was ROF stamped. call me old fashioned 

Oh and our desert maps would need linking to quick mission , which it is not yet as we dont know how.

Your tool Ankor85 would be used greatly if you make it.
I would use it.

Best Regards
Tony

 

 

Rama, on 25 May 2012 - 07:53, said:

 

Well… while I don't want to work on a fictionnal map, I have no problems with peoples/teams building some fictionnal maps (and players flying on them). The best lunch is when every guest gets its favorite dish.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 25 May 2012 - 10:17, said:

 

3D objects will halt new maps for another year or more 

 

 

TheBlackPenguin, on 25 May 2012 - 10:31, said:

 

Out of curiosity, what is the process to bring a 3D model in ROF? Nothing big.

 

 

1PL-Lucas-1Esk, on 25 May 2012 - 10:57, said:

 

I agree (for the static objects) The one thing which is a bit tricky without proper knowledge is building a hitbox(es) and correct naming of the model parts.

As for the maps…

AnKor, just like Tony, I will be very grateful for some assistance with converting the SVG stuff into ini files and bin generation files. I have some test 50x50km map already done (you can see it on Sukhoi in Lucas's mods topic) but it is without rails and roads and I made it on the Verdun map. If you will find some free time in the future, I will be very excited to learn something more.

 

 

Laser, on 25 May 2012 - 13:52, said:

 

So, little lateral question, as i see people here seem to know to do at least some part of a 3d "third-party" object, anyone had any success/instructions so far? (I'd just want some old style pylons with checkers/stripes trapezoidal or rectangular base)

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 25 May 2012 - 22:56, said:

 

Some people do know the answers of how to make and ADD 3d Objects

Problem is translation of Russian frustrates me i would like to drink vodka and speak with these people who have the answers 

IDS and DiFiS i think are the guru batabase of answers

this example was done years ago , and from what i can gather from translating the posts they speak about keeping it simple ,, no point making a Cathedal as your first 3d model as it would be complicated and put you off making something in the future.

This is why we want to make "wooden box" or "Oil Drum" or Bush or shrub , or TREE , they all have collision model some have damage model…

All we need is instructions on how its done correctly.

Even in the post above people went off on tangent idea's and did not learn the basic concept first , a good foundation is the "Wooden Table" the project in the future sits upon.
 

 

 

AnKor85, on 26 May 2012 - 01:43, said:

 

O_WolfPac, there's nothing to translate in that topic, absolutely no usable info. You've got everything right - Loft was asking to keep things simple while people were dreaming about making various objects like a dog in a kennel. IDS is banned on sukhoi forums (as I understand they have very peculiar administrative politics there and banning people left and right).

If you have something that needs translation - ask me, I'll try to help. Though 3D modelling is outside the scope of my interests… hmm… I was recently telling the same about Flash/ActionScript… hmmm… no, this time it is concrete: 3D is not my profile at all.

That picture with pylon is interesting for me because I've never seen such trees in the game. Something has changed since last year?


1PL-Lucas-ESzk, I've seen your Warsaw map, very impressive.
It will be interesting to add roads/rails on the map as well as inside the city. Then you'll be able to place ingame trains there:
 

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 26 May 2012 - 03:52, said:

 

The instructions i refer towards are in the Download of edit_Stuff_rof.rar

its mainly for how to make a tree which i understand the concept and by pure chance i can make the mgm.file but something is wrong still.

A wooden box or oil drum example step by step photo instruction

Wise to stay away from 3d modelling stuff its a shockin frustration.

 

 

Laser, on 26 May 2012 - 07:34, said:

 

Ooo, i'd want that badly … with a windsock on top! 

Thanks for info, WolfPac!

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 26 May 2012 - 09:29, said:

 

unfortunately i donot know where IDS hangs out on the internet to ask or retreive the race tower or how he introduced to the flight sim 

I thought he was a =FB= squad member from his profile like but i guess not , after checking the FB website

Shame , he might not of known all the answer but he obviously knew some 

Shame he was banned , can never contact.

 

 

-bbob, on 26 May 2012 - 10:54, said:

 

Crap, I can only import objects to ROF using an exporter from max8? I stopped using that about 5 years ago in school, is it even still possible to get a hold of a copy? Additionally, will that plugin allow me to make collision meshes as well?


———————
 

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 26 May 2012 - 21:44, said:

 

At present , the plugin seems to work correctly , it will create mgm file , but the .col file doesnot apprear with the mgm file so im doing something wrong but i havent a clue what yet , maybe it is making the col file but it saves to a location i havent found or the 3d model has to be placed in a certain location before exporting for it to work correctly

one day

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 28 May 2012 - 02:56, said:

 

No, these are standard pine trees, but you will only see them in the Verdun/ Metz area.

 

 

AnKor85, on 28 May 2012 - 15:27, said:

 

Oh, I see. I rarely fly there 

I've started putting together a workflow that will allow to rebuild roads for the main map, but still can't decide if I want to reuse official tools or make my own. Both approaches has advantages and disadvantages – I can make something more flexible and easier to use, but I think that initially it may be better to stick with what we have and don't reinvent the wheel.

I have already extracted SVG for road data. Then I can extract height and rivers as bitmap files compatible with official tools. Then it will be possible to edit and rebuild official maps using these sources. By the way, uncompressed river data for main map has dimensions of 38400*28800 pixels (10m/px) and to use with official tools it should be split into 108 files 3200*3200px each.

And even if we are going to edit roads we still need river data because of bridges. Without special processing those SVG files that I've extracted will produce roads spanning across rivers.

About file size - as WolfPac said road binaries are 150 Mb, but that's not all - there are also road pathfinding binaries, thus full road+rails+trenches data for main map is 217 M

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 30 May 2012 - 22:29, said:

 

Hello 

In the Landtexturequality folder

What information is held in the .fsc files
These files have to be edited if no-mans-land is moved ( i think ) , but if i open them in notepad or notepad++ they do not look like the bin file format.

What do they do ?

 

 

AnKor85, on 31 May 2012 - 01:14, said:

 

FSC files control trees placement on each carpet tile. Though I still don't know how trees are removed from the no-mans land.

There's ForestCalc.exe utility (in edit_stuff_rof.rar) that generates those fsc files from bitmaps but I haven't yet played with it and can't tell how to use it.

According to docs you need to use alpha channel on carpet texture to specify where the trees are: full alpha means trees, transparent means no trees (by the way, I have yet to see if that alpha is really used ingame).
Then extract alpha channel into monochrome bmp file with the same name as carpet texture.
Then use ForestCalc.exe, keep parametes as is, specify your new bmp as "Mask texture" and you also need WDS file for "Plant layout". I think I've seen woods.wds file in graphics\landscape when extracting GTP archives.

But I haven't tried this process myself and can't tell if it works.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 31 May 2012 - 06:51, said:

 

Hi AnKor 

i worked out how to control the alpha trees that are on the carpet cards

on the above photo i re-textured ONE tile so you can see the tile easier.
I made the carpet tile Black

The trees that are on this tile above are not on the forest map bmp file ,they are the carpet tile ALPHA trees
I did have issues with editing these trees but since then i have been able to remove them by editing the alpha channel

There is another way to remove the trees but its abit hard to explain , by swapping and renaming files but you cant add trees that way 

I was wondering if the fsc file contained any other information
the reason is the black tile above still has a textured pattern on the tile and im looking to change this texture , but im having a hard time finding the texture

was wonderiing if its hidden within the fsc , guess not 

 

 

ROSS_DiFiS, on 01 Jun 2012 - 09:52, said:

 

rof_folder\data\graphics\landscape\landtexturesquality\amiens01.fsc - trees
rof_folder\data\graphics\landscape\landtexturesquality\amiens01.dds - carpet

You need to genetate the new fsc for eath part of carpet.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 01 Jun 2012 - 21:50, said:

 

Hello DiFiS
Yes best way is make new fsc

or

re-name stquentin03.fsc
Retexture & rename stquentin03.dds

But this does not add new tree , only remove.

 

 

Waxworks, on 13 Jun 2012 - 12:48, said:

 

Has there been any further progress with this venture? It does seem very desirable to have improved stations and the Hindenburg Line in the game, and Jason has offered support if the project is properly organised, yet the discussion seems to have gone quiet.

I'm happy to help with research and I can add villages or ruin existing towns and villages. Railyard or trench creation would be dependent on me having access to the necessary tools. From what I understand, the Hindenburg Line should not be as evident as the 'mud' along much of its length, though it was characterised by its vast swathes of wire, I'm not sure how that could best be represented in game.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 13 Jun 2012 - 19:06, said:

 

waxwork , i dont know about the others here but for me i have hit another problem regarding roads not tested railways to see if its the same problem

With the roads if i place a road and it crosses the path of a river i get a wierd issue , the AI vehicle stops turns round and runs away it did not see the bridge …. very odd maybe i did something wrong so im re-doing the road structure to see if i got a angle wrong somewhere but till present i have checked most junctions and all seem correct

Its all a learning curve and just like the rof mission editor its complicated but gets easier with time and alot of trial and errors 


Ref ..Hindenburg line ,

I am not a historian and im no guru with map making
I have looked at the links but it all looks confusing and if you move the front line in one location it may as well be moved in other locations aswell ,,, unless we learn on the easier map = verdun map 5x5DF.

How much did the front line move on the verdun map ?

Main reason i ask is the rof large map is one hell of a large map , if the hindenburg line is just lets say 5-15km of front line then to make that correction would take time but people would complain that we have a historical front line of only 5-15km and the rest of the frontlines not true about 200km of it 

For the creator or group to achieve the move and then get a slap down from critics would be heartbreakin and offputting.

Maybe Verdun map is a better option as its a easier map to work on because of size and file amounts and it also is a smaller more detailed part of the larger rof map..

Once completed and a fresh new frontline made for a different time frame in the ww period the files can in a way be used to update the large rof map in theory but that would be again a big task but only copy n pasting filesand also seperate project

 

 

Feathered_IV, on 13 Jun 2012 - 21:32, said:

 

Thanks guys for discussing this out in the open. The more of us that can pick up the techniques the better.

 

WolfPac, bridges are a bit tricky.
I suppose you just ended one polyline and started a new one on the other side of the river? This way the game will treat these lines as separate roads and bridge won't connect them.

There's a special tool from devs that finds places where roads cross the rivers and adds special "marker" there so the game still thinks that the road is continuous but didn't draw it over the river.
To work, this tool needs source files for water data - the set of BMP files 3200*3200 pixels each (10m/pixel resolution).
Good thing about the tool is that it also outputs .Group file containing all bridges in appropriate places so they can be imported into mission editor.
I will post it later with some instructions, just don't have time now.

Before that you can also add bridge markers manually by editing .ini files.
Let's say that you have made a road and split it in two parts for each side of the river, the ini file will contain two separate lines:
10,100 20,100
25,100 30,100
Assuming the river is located between coordinates 20 and 25.

Now if you connect the road into a single line like this:
10,100 20,100 25,100 30,100
The game will draw the road across the river which is obviously wrong.

However, if you add a single letter B between the points where the river goes:
10,100 20,100 B 25,100 30,100
it will tell the game that the road is continuous for routing purposes but it should draw a gap between between points 20 and 25.
Well, at least I think it works this way. I haven't actually checked how routing for bridges work.

Finally, the silence from me is not because I abandoned the thread but quite the contrary - DiFiS persuaded me to make a map editor that will allow to simplify the workflow, so right now I'm busy with it. If everything goes right I will show an initial version by the end of next week - it will allow to play around with carpet tiles placement.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 14 Jun 2012 - 02:39, said:

 

See sometimes i do not see the obvious 

Yes i make 2 roads , first time i saw the issue at rivers and re-did the roads to correct it , but caused the vehicles to turn round or stop , when they saw water 
I thought it was my mistake , or Ai Trucks that just really did not like water

 

 

AnKor85, on 14 Jun 2012 - 04:52, said:

 

I have found that they go into water and sink pretty well if you forgot to add a bridge /forum/public/style_emoticons/phpbb/icon_e_smile.gif
A small teaser about map editor:

It is obvious WIP with lots of features missing, but as I said by the end of next week I think I will get tile editor working 

 

 

Rama, on 14 Jun 2012 - 05:53, said:

 

That sound very intersting

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 14 Jun 2012 - 11:03, said:

 

Looking good! Really looking forward to this 

 

 

AnKor85, on 14 Jun 2012 - 13:00, said:

 

Thanks! 
My only concern is that this project will prevent me from progressing in development of the mission editor and I actually consider the latter to be more interesting and useful. On the other hand - the map editor is less complex and thus has more chances to be completed at all.

 

 

Waxworks, on 14 Jun 2012 - 14:06, said:

 

The Siegfried Stellung or Hindenburg Line ran from Arras to the Aisne east of Soissons. Vander has provided a map on post #95, which seems to be of the Hindenburg Line after the Vimy-Arras offensive. A Hindenburg map should really include the devastation of that offensive and also the Somme battlefield, which wrecked everywhere south of Warlencourt and west of Peronne. I would go so far as to use mud for these sectors and not for the rest of the Hindenburg Line, which had only seen light fighting for which trenches alone might be sufficient, or some 'intermediate' level of mud. Ypres should also be a ruin. I can achieve this already in the editor but the trees remain.

Is there any chance of being able to turn the ambient flak off when the areas are no longer part of the front line?

With an update we could also have more villages or ruined villages, which can be added using the existing editor. Perhaps it might be useful to start by having detailed representation of all the important battlefields?

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 14 Jun 2012 - 20:58, said:

 

Question is it possible to add a second frontline ?

We know how to move the mud front line we have presently , but if and i do say IF a Hindenburg front Line was made the ground texture would be different in and around the frontline and the push was with in 1 month from what i can see so the ground damage would not be as destroyed and be crater and mud totally , some parts would be green in patches ….

So if the No mans land remained present and a second front line was added

Is this possible ?

I can see it could be done with substrates but is it possible to add this onto the mask files maybe as a extra colour lets say Orange or even white markings

How are the colours controlled regarding the mask files
nomansland is blue ( granted the blue is multiple colours of blue /forum/public/style_emoticons/phpbb/icon_e_smile.gif)
Forest is green
River is red
then we have afew blends of all as yellow
Just 4 colours

How do we add a 5th colour or can we ?

What im thinking is a texture that has alpha cutouts of craters that would cut the grass and add the feeling of a fast moving battle area.
At the same time a 6th texture could be added to nomansland we have presently to show some green and life recovering in the mud.

Just asking is it possible to add texture via mask files as we only use 4 colours at present.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 14 Jun 2012 - 21:26, said:

 

texture.ini

ground_color0=0x9f8e60;
ground_color1=0xffc47d;
ground_color2=0xffc47d;
ground_color3=0xFFFF00;

And the channels of the type dds texture file ?

Is that all that controls the mask files ?

 

 

AnKor85, on 15 Jun 2012 - 07:27, said:

 

I don't know yet how ambient flak (and probably related "battle smoke") over no-mans land is controlled. Will figure out when it will be necessary. I hope DiFiS will be able to help here, he knows a lot about map internal structure 

As for "intermediate" mud… Unfortunately I don't think it is possible to have more than 3 mask textures - so we are limited to having only forest, sand and mud masks. However they aren't just ON/OFF layer but can be partially transparent. This means that we can try to simulate fresh (or recovering) battlefields by using half (or any other percentage) transparent mud texture. Need to check how it looks though.
We can also try to use substrate textures so draw individual craters or similar stuff, but again, need to see how they look and how the game will work if we put a lot of them nearby.

 

 

WW1EAF_Paf, on 15 Jun 2012 - 08:15, said:

 

If you guys find out how to remove ambient flak, please release it as a mod for existant map.
It shouldn't be there IMHO.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 15 Jun 2012 - 20:41, said:

 

Sorry Paf

what do you mean it shouldnt be there ? its the front line ,its the only place you would expect to see ambient flak.

im not taking a dig at you ,i just like the effect its very cleverly made and gives nomans-land an ambient feeling of danger , of course this is just my opinion.

 

 

redcoat22, on 15 Jun 2012 - 22:10, said:

 

While I agree the effect is nicely done, I think his position is that flak gunners did not arbitrarily fire bursts into the air for dangerous visual effect. They fired at planes. In fact, it was one of the most common ways another pilot would spot someone else in the area.

 

 

=Fifi=, on 15 Jun 2012 - 22:10, said:

 

As Paf, i think those AA bursts are very disturbing when trying to spot planes close to NML.
And why AA would fire at nothing?
Smoke from ground explosions is already there to give global ambiance.

But it's just a matter of taste, i guess. And a dev's choice when they made it firstly.

 

 

Rama, on 16 Jun 2012 - 08:31, said:

 

You're right. But this isn't a map feature, it's a game feature (the way the front ambient flak gunnery is coded)
It would probably be IMHO more useful to discuss it on a specific thread.
… and to focus here on what can be done by third parties for map making/map mods.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 17 Jun 2012 - 00:13, said:

 

Rama Question you might know 

How are the colours controlled regarding the mask files
nomansland is blue ( granted the blue is multiple colours of blue /forum/public/style_emoticons/phpbb/icon_e_smile.gif)
Forest (Shadows) is green
River (Sand) is red
then we have afew blends of all as yellow
Just 4 colours

texture.ini

ground_color0=0x9f8e60;
ground_color1=0xffc47d;
ground_color2=0xffc47d;
ground_color3=0xFFFF00;

And the channels of the type dds texture file ?

Is that all that controls the mask files ?

If i add new line to ini file ground_color4=0x111111;
then add new channel with same colour code would this work

 

 

AnKor85, on 22 Jun 2012 - 14:12, said:

 

Small update.
Terrain editor preview that I wanted to show won't be ready for this weekend. I've had problems deciding how UI should work but DiFiS gave me some good ideas today and now I know what to do next. However it looks like I will be having less free time now – one of my old "free-time" projects unexpectedly revived, and since I'm actually paid for it I'll have to do some work there.
Anyway I'll still try to release something as soon as possible.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 22 Jun 2012 - 23:06, said:

 

no worries Ankor 

Its funny how things in life turn up and life & Bills comes first.

By the way i finished the Hurricane 
 

 

 

-bbob, on 26 Jun 2012 - 23:41, said:

 

AnKor, take your time mate.

It would however be fantastically cool to have an editor like that. 

 

 

Cold_Gambler, on 27 Jun 2012 - 13:28, said:

 

I can only read this thread with slack-jawed amazement at what you guys can do!

I'm feeling conflicted at AnKor85 being distracted from his RoF projects just because he has other things on the go that he gets paid for 

 

 

xjouve, on 06 Jul 2012 - 03:39, said:

 

Nice thread. Makes me want to continue working on this old project

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 06 Jul 2012 - 17:20, said:

 

xjouve , you should , it all works ,personally im still having problems with roads that cross over rivers but im convinced its my mistake something wrong , just havent worked out what yet 

xjouve your old project stumbled and stopped because of the unknown , but now its all clear to dig new trenchlines

 

 

AnKor85, on 07 Jul 2012 - 03:40, said:

 

xjouve, I've read that thread before and you were doing a great work altering front lines. This is something that is really wanted around here!

I've made some progress with map editor, but I think I'll change my plans a bit: I started with making tile editor but it is mostly useful for creating maps of new areas, but right now we want to make alterations of existing main map.
Thus I'll put my efforts into making road editor which is what this topic about anyway 

 

 

xjouve, on 07 Jul 2012 - 07:20, said:

 

Thanks for the kind words guys. 

I had a glance over the SVGs, and other files, but I'm still a bit confused. But apparently this is where I was stuck by past. If moving trenches has became possible, then my project can now be continued! 

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 07 Jul 2012 - 17:10, said:

 

trench lines , ALL tree's , roads and rail all can be moved.

Only one i can not move ,is the dust in the air over nomansland , but this is because i have not found the correct file yet.
I thought i had seen the file before along time ago it was a dds file of black and dark green , were black indicated the nomandland shape dark green all the rest of the large standard map , but it also have 3 black lines top right of the dds files
we never tested it ,but i think this file is what controls the dust of battle over the mud.

I just wish i could find it and know its file name hehe

 

 

Avimimus, on 07 Jul 2012 - 17:27, said:

 

There is an ini file which describes the appearance of the dust effect (and could be used to remove it).

However, I have no idea how the landscape is associated with the dust (spatially).

 

 

MattM, on 07 Jul 2012 - 17:29, said:

 

forest_color.dds

It's in the graphics\landscape\landtexturesquality\ folder.

I'm not sure if that file controls the dust though, i would say it doesn't, based on the file name alone. Did not check it.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 08 Jul 2012 - 03:36, said:

 

MattM thats the one if you open the dds its the nomansland shape of the large map

I never worked out what the stripes are used for ? or why they are present

 

 

MattM, on 08 Jul 2012 - 07:55, said:

 

There ae actually two different files. One in the GTP files and another one unpacked in the graphics folder. They differ a bit, one has brownish NML and the other black and the forest shape is a bit different.

I think it controls this long distance forest textures, but I'm not sure.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 08 Jul 2012 - 16:17, said:

 

i havent tried it but because it has the shape of nml im under the impression it is the dust in the air location.
The amount of dust is controlled by a different file abit like the colour of water.

2 ways to find out 

MAKE a Backup of the files first then…

edit the file , remove nml and see
or
edit the mask files for somewhere like verdun on the mask files , lets say 6-8 files and remove the mud blue totally and see if the dust gets removed aswell.
login mods on mode and to see what happens.

The way things are controlled changed slightly afew months back when they merged some textures into one file , maybe at that point the way dust is controlled changed

 

 

MattM, on 16 Jul 2012 - 12:14, said:

 

That file doesn't control it. Just rotated the image 90° and the dust is still at the same place.

I think it's somehow hard coded into the map. Spend some time on searching a file which might control the dust, but just can't find it.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 16 Jul 2012 - 20:29, said:

 

MattM i would suggect a basic edit test if thats the case

Edit the mask files for some where like Verdun on the mask files , lets say 6-8 files and remove the mud blue totally and see if the dust gets removed aswell.
login mods on mode and to see what happens.

The way things are controlled changed slightly afew months back when they merged some textures into one file , maybe at that point the way dust is controlled changed

 

 

NewGuy_, on 16 Jul 2012 - 20:42, said:

 

I just wanted to bump this, because it looks like a cool project! 

 

 

MattM, on 17 Jul 2012 - 10:18, said:

 

Yes, i already tried that. Doesn't look like the blue stuff on the mask files controls the dust either.

It's much easier to check this by using the mission editor btw. It will basically start in mods-on mode all the time and if you make changes and click on "new mission", it will automatically update with the changes.

Much quicker and simpler than booting up ROF to check that.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 17 Jul 2012 - 22:26, said:

 

hmmm i did not know that matt about the editor thank you what a clever editor we have

Regarding dust over NML if its not the masks of the other file then i havent a clue
My thought go towards the only other thing that follows NML and thats the trench lines but i can not see how that could be done.

I remember seeing a file that was a gradiant of dust colours , maybe find that file and then do a windows search on the whole folder to see what text uses the file it may lead to a clue.

I honestly thought the mask files and/or the forest_colour dds would of controlled it in someway

Sorry for wasting some time MattM
Its a question for Rama now 

 

 

Jaeger_301, on 20 Aug 2012 - 23:05, said:

 

Historical maps about the austrian/italian front are available here:
(austrian national archive)

http://www.onb.ac.at/sammlungen/karten/

with the search: erster weltkrieg isonzo, i found some maps with frontlines (cant link the result)



plus tons of digital images

 

 

J.j., on 21 Aug 2012 - 06:40, said:

 

I've tried to do as you say, but I can't find how to open the results to have access to some maps?

 

 

Jaeger_301, on 21 Aug 2012 - 09:20, said:

 

Hi,

the search is very tricky! 

Here are the links for the Isonzo war map:

http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC04123805
http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC04137386

The Austrian National Archive has several thousand files about the Isonzo battle, some of them are free and online available, unfortunately the maps are payware.

According to the Archive it is possible to make scans up to the size of A2, the contact is:
bildarchiv@onb.ac.at

good luck

Jaeger

 

 

J.j., on 21 Aug 2012 - 09:59, said:

 

Oh, ok. It was just for curiosity, but I think that it can be found interesting by some people if
a map of Austrian front is worked some days.

By the way, do you know how we can recognize ressources online available?

 

 

Jaeger_301, on 21 Aug 2012 - 12:16, said:

 

a map of the "schützengraeben" of the italian front.



this side includes also lots of pictures from the used trenches.

http://www.it-au-1915-1918.com/piz_umbrail_tour_i_6.htm

http://www.it-au-1915-1918.com/schauplaetze.htm

 

A couple of areas on the existing map which could use work are the Ypres area, where the mud should extend right up to the destroyed city, and the Lens area, where the city was surrounded by open cast mines. Neither of these sectors are very convincingly portrayed as it is.

It is unhappy that this thread seems to have stalled, especially after Jason promised support for a further terrain restructure. Has there been any more work on railheads or the Hindenburg Line?

 

 

J.j., on 08 Sept 2012 - 05:18, said:

 

I think there was a "redeployment" of the work charge to construction of static object using the "new SDK".

 

 

AnKor85, on 08 Sept 2012 - 06:00, said:

 

One problem is that while I have enough technical knowledge to help with various modding projects for ROF, I just don't have enough time for all of them.

I have helped its author with texture tile and trees placement info and as you can see he managed to make a nice village rather quickly and (almost) without special tools.
Actually I can also help him with making new roads for it, it is not that hard actually, but it just doesn't worth the effort for one village mostly because road data are not modular and you'll have to update >100 Mb of game files just to add a new small road.
Or I can help with changing the heightmap to level the terrain on new airfield - it is much easier than adding roads, but since 1.027 ROF doesn't allow modified heightmaps (a new DRM restriction introduced for Channel map), so any terrain mod must be approved by devs. And it just doesn't worth the hassle for one airfield.

So… what I'm trying to tell: if you want to add something new just start with smaller standalone projects like Roucourt above, and when there will be enough of these projects to justify some global changes - I'll help with putting everything together.

 

 

ParachuteProne, on 01 Nov 2012 - 09:28, said:

 

Just wondering if you still planning on doing the mission editor in the future ?

Mark

 

 

AnKor85, on 01 Nov 2012 - 10:25, said:

 

Ah… the mission editor.
I haven't talked about it for a long time as I was busy with other ROF related stuff, but nonetheless I continued to work on it in the meantime. Still I don't have anything useful to show yet.

To be honest it seems I am running out of enthusiasm and I doubt I'll be able to make it. However I see really good progress by Pat Wilson with his campaign generator and I think it will eventually evolve into simplified mission editor.

So… I didn't abandon the idea, but you'd better not wait for me to make it.

The same applies to mapping tools. I've made a lot of research and everything I wanted to make seems to be possible, but I just don't feel like I want to spend any substantial time on this stuff anymore. Perhaps I took too much tasks at one and they exhausted me.

 

 

ParachuteProne, on 01 Nov 2012 - 10:44, said:

 

Good to know. Too much of anything is not good 
Thanks for the info.

 

 

Rama, on 01 Nov 2012 - 11:34, said:

 

I know this feeling…. I have the same from time to time. Third party switch from pleasure to pain when you assign yourself too much work and too short deadlines to complete them.
The hardest thing to do is to define a rythm of activities compatible with the pleasure to do it (not continuous, it becomes inevitably boring).

I hope you'll find this rythm (and the motivation that goes with)… since the work you've done so far for the editor and map tools is fantastic, and will be greatly appreciated when usable. It will open the door for many third party work to create and/or upgrade RoF maps.

 

 

hq_Jorri, on 01 Nov 2012 - 13:08, said:

 

Well said, Rama. People like Ankor, yourself, Vander and others are invaluable to Rise of Flight which needs to be said some times!

 

 

ParachuteProne, on 01 Nov 2012 - 13:53, said:

 

+1

 

 

MarcoRossolini, on 02 Nov 2012 - 20:06, said:

 

+1

 

 

AnKor85, on 04 Nov 2012 - 14:54, said:

 

Thanks guys!
I've just got an idea about road and trench editing that may actually work 
What we need to edit them them is a vector editor which allows drawing on top of map background. I initially wanted to make one… but now I think - why bother? We already have an official mission editor and it can do both - render map and edit vectors. It is a bit clumsy but may do the job.
My part is to make a special utility that turns road data into .group files for mission editor and then builds roads from edited missions again.

Here is an example of trench lines converted into interconnected icons which can be edited in the mission editor.
Zoomed in:

Zoomed out:

The main problem is that mission editor can't handle too much icons at once and I'll have to split the map into sectors for comfortable editing, but it is not a big deal.

We are on a roll again 
Any comments?

 

 

Avatar, on 04 Nov 2012 - 16:09, said:

 

Well said and I whole-heartedly agree!


Dang! Great work on this mate!! I'm always amazed at those with the know-how with what they do and can come up with. to you all and thanks.

 

 

Branwell, on 04 Nov 2012 - 17:22, said:

 

Sorry to appear dumb, Ankor, but what does this actually mean? That we (well, someone who knows how to!  can move the frontline for a specific mission?

 

 

AnKor85, on 05 Nov 2012 - 00:58, said:

 

Don't worry there are not so many people who understand how ROF maps are made 

In theory - yes, but it is not practical.
Even if you change a small part of the trench or road network you will get 100 Mb of binary files needed to add this change into ROF.
There are not only trenches, but also a mud texture + smoke and explosions which should be moved (though they are much simpler than trenches).
Finally there is a minimap that shows the front line and has to be updated too.
So it is also too much work to move the front *for every mission*.

Much more feasible will be to make several versions of the front, representing various periods of the war. Then mission author will be able to choose one of this versions which fits the mission.

 

 

1PL-Lucas-1Esk, on 05 Nov 2012 - 04:38, said:

 

AnKor,
some time ago I was working on my 50x50 test map of Warsaw area but stopped after having no idea how to build a road and railroad network.
Will be possible to use your idea in the future and try to draw both networks using a 50x50km template together with placing icons ?

I would love to get in touch with you and discuss road/rail placement techniques, but I understand that you are very busy with the projects.
Once we will have that, I was thinking about creating a custom building set up for the map, as well as the ground texture set built from scratch.
In my dreams, that map could be included as a freeware addon some time in the future. I can not release it as a 3rd party mod, each new map has to be connected to the player account by the devs.

 

 

AnKor85, on 05 Nov 2012 - 05:12, said:

 

Lucas,
Yes, it should work perfectly for your map.
I'm really glad you are interested - your 50x50km map is a good start to see how this editing technique works before attempting large scale stuff. I hope Tony will like to try it too with his desert map.

So far everything looks so good I may make the first version of converter tool before the end of the week. I wonder why I didn't get such idea earlier! 

I have certain progress with ground texture placement utility too, but it is not going to be ready soon.

 

 

1PL-Lucas-1Esk, on 05 Nov 2012 - 05:28, said:

 

Thanks for your reply! I am going to make some pack during the week and will send you what I have achieved so far - so you will be able to take a look at it in the ME.
Luckily Viks was kind to build me some additional information files, so the map even shows up in the Quick Mission in mods on.
All the best,
Lucas

 

 

AnKor85, on 06 Nov 2012 - 13:57, said:

 

One more teaser image 

I can edit both kinds of roads and trenches and view results almost in real-time - the map updates when I click 'Apply' in mission properties 

Not ready for release yet, but soon…

 

 

WW1EAF_Paf, on 06 Nov 2012 - 14:13, said:

 

Just wow! 

 

 

MarcoRossolini, on 06 Nov 2012 - 16:14, said:

 

Incredible, damned good show AnKor. 

 

 

1PL-Lucas-1Esk, on 06 Nov 2012 - 16:29, said:

 

Fantastic! Can not wait to try it!

 

 

hq_Jorri, on 06 Nov 2012 - 20:33, said:

 

Give the man a medal!

 

 

Waxworks, on 07 Nov 2012 - 13:19, said:

 

It still seems a pity that though we have been offered the chance to improve the existing map once more, there is no organised community project to take advantage of this. I have dozens of extra villages from missions I've made already. There seems sufficient interest, but as yet no catalyst?

The Roucourt project made me wonder whether it might not be an improvement to use different underlying textures for villages from the ones we have. The current practice is to use a grey and darker grey to merge in with the roads, which might be more industrial than rural. If instead the roads were left as they were, you could use a green or brown (autumn) texture for the village area, which might seem more realistic. When you compare real life images to the towns and villages we have, the roads are still highlighted when they pass through a village, and the area around houses tends to be gardens rather than concrete.

However we might still use grey textures for any expansion of the rail network. You might not need to put in new buildings around sidings if space was left for them with retexturing. This is something I'd do myself, if I was confident that it wouldn't just go to waste.

 

 

AnKor85, on 07 Nov 2012 - 15:13, said:

 

Waxworks,
This is one of the biggest problems.
I can't easily motivate anyone (including myself) to work on map improvement because there aren't many ways to use the result of such work.

There are several areas where map changes may be used:
1. Career - changes have to be approved by devs to be incorporated into the game. I have no idea on what is needed for such approval or how long we may need to wait for this to happen. Not that I don't believe Jason, I'm just trying to be a realist.

2. Multiplayer - modified maps will work in "mods off", but distribution is pain in the *ss. Built-in downloader is not suitable for this purpose. I thought about it a lot, but I don't see any solution.

3. Singleplayer - how many custom sp missions have you seen recently? Though "Flying Fury" mission set is actually a good example which could benefit from modified font line. But in general we need a better mission editor… oh, wait. I wanted to make one. Maybe someday.

4. PWCG - this is perhaps the only aspect of the game (even being a 3rd party) which can immediately benefit from the modded map. Pat even wants to make squadron locations historical and thus the front line won't match current no-mans land at certain periods.

Imagine making a custom map (using Western Front height data so we don't have to bother with DRM) and then asking Pat to add a bit of code which detects if modified map is installed and if so, use it for his missions.
Now, let's incorporate modified Roucourt into this map.
Then let's add more substrate textures for some villages as you suggest.
Then let's draw Hindenburg line.
And so on… Those who want will download and enjoy the changes. Those who don't will keep using original map as if nothing happened.

Another approach is the one I called non practical on the previous page.
Take a look on "Flying Fury" missions. The area of operations as seen in PDF is about 100x80 km. It is bigger than our small maps (Verdun and Lake), but still quite manageable.
I believe, given the proper tools, it is quite possible and will take a sane amount of time for one man to modify the front line and add some details in that area and then distribute it as a custom map along with campaign. And don't worry about huge size of binaries I mentioned before - there is a workaround.

Well, that's it. I don't know if it motivates anyone though.

 

 

Waxworks, on 07 Nov 2012 - 15:36, said:

 

To be clear, it's not just the addition of more substrate textures that I wanted, but also the replacement of the ones we already have. EAF_Pafs Roucourt is a good example as the roads are retained so that they clearly exist in the village, and the houses are in gardens rather than sat on some industrial texture. It's not hard to do this on a more basic level for other villages, by leaving the roads in and using a different texture for the village area. The grey texture might be left for cities, stations and industry.

The Hindenburg Line, with an expanded rail network, is what I'd like to work on, if it can be organised. I was already going to convert all the villages devastated during the German withdrawal into ruins, as I had done for the Cambrai sector I worked on. It might help if there were a quick guide to substrates and what can be done to modify the rail and trench networks somewhere.

 

 

Branwell, on 07 Nov 2012 - 15:48, said:

 

Fantastic work guys 

Just curious though - how long would it take to change the front on the whole map(i.e. in man-hours, to edit the trench waypoints etc)?

Just wondering if it would be possible to maybe have a few different maps that SP/MP mission builders could choose, or the career automatically pick, based on the date of the mission? Obviously the ideal would be something like one for every month (!), but if it takes such an extraordinary effort to do all the waypoint moving (which I suspect it might!), then maybe a different map for every half-year, or maybe each season might be something we could wish for?

The REAL ideal would be to devastate villages that the war would have run through on the 'new' maps as the front moved, but I guess that just adds an awful lot more work?!

I would love to help out on anything like this, but I'm not sure my skills would be up to it?! 

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 08 Nov 2012 - 01:00, said:

 

Guys,

Let me cut in here. First, I love what you guys are learning to do with our map. Second, I understand what Ankor is saying and he, along with others, has worked hard to make things that everyone can find useful. But yes it is hard to stay motivated if he is the only one doing it as a hobby. It is a lot of work. Third, you guys basically have all the tools you need now to make a "new" map with an altered frontline, new roads and rails, new airfields, new static objects and new textures. Fourth, I am prepared to support the hosting of any truly awesome new modded map, campaign or set of missions that will make users happy. Hosting files of reasonable size is not an issue in my mind. What I need is a marketable, self-contained end-user ready example of all of these tools and skills coming together to form a proof of concept project that everyone can test and enjoy. Finally, please stop wanting to make everything official and have that issue ruin your fun. We have given everyone a great feature in allowing you to use Mods with a single checkbox and switch back to regular mode by un-checking the same box. Don't be afraid to make something that is only for Mods On mode. It's not as big a deal as it seems. And yes, if you make something really awesome that we like and have the time to incorporate maybe we will, but of course I can't make any guarantees.

This is going to sound rude, but I do not mean it to be. Other sim communities have done a lot of work to create new content for other sims WITHOUT any encouragement or support from the owners and they have made some really awesome stuff. We've been pretty responsive on that front compared to others. Why it hasn't taken off in ROF I have no idea and it boggles our minds a bit. I always offer help where I can help and the team likes to see mods being made, that’s why they have created Mods On mode. We also made a super powerful mission editor and yes its complex, but it allows you to do stuff no other sim ME does. I actually want to create a Mods Download section on the website where we can offer popular mods in a semi-official way, but I don't see any effort by the community to organize it and meet us half way. I know nobody likes to work for free, but I can meet you guys in the middle with exposure, support and hosting files. All I need is someone to step up and take charge and put a plan together.

I believe there is plenty of talent and brain power here in the ROF community to make a test subject that uses what tools we have provided and what others have created. My suggestion is for someone to elect themselves team leader and form a small team, call yourselves the “Lost Battalion” or something and set out to make a modified map (based on our current map) with a smallish battlefield area that has improved roads, rails, trench lines, mud location, updated airfields, some new objects, new textures, modified clouds, new villages etc. and release it as a single archive that you just drop into ROF and enjoy. This effort will establish a system of making such things and those that know how to do something can train other volunteers on how to do something and then you can make an assembly line system and expand from there.

That’s my suggestion and I will gladly host anything of substance that gets created and offer support where I can

Some talented guys in this community:

1PL-Lucas-1Esk
Naked Squirrel
Vander
Waxworks
AnKor
Difis
Prangster
LukeFF
Rama

Just to name a few…

And we like to see and meet talented 3rd Parties who can help us. You never know where it may lead.

Jason

 

 

BADMUTHA, on 08 Nov 2012 - 02:08, said:

 

Then how about opening up the entire game to modification? You'd see a lot more mods and content if that were the case but it isn't.

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 08 Nov 2012 - 02:34, said:

 

RP can it.

Jason

 

 

Feathered_IV, on 08 Nov 2012 - 03:28, said:

 

You have the GTP extractor that gives you access to the entire game.

Thanks Jason that was very well said. I'm not sure why modding hasn't taken off yet either. Perhaps it is an indication of how little dissatisfaction there really is with the sim.

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 08 Nov 2012 - 03:50, said:

 

Regardless, I'm doing all I can to help those that want to make something like a modded map and other stuff. We're not against it, but we can't just hand over every internal tool we use or the source code.

Jason

 

 

hoots2, on 08 Nov 2012 - 04:40, said:

 

And red, remember that you are not the only customer, I for one do not want to see a completely modded game, down that road lies some gems but mostly a whole load of crap. It also leads to a further splintering of servers, who has what mod allowed etc. No, I don't want a completely open game.

 

 

BADMUTHA, on 08 Nov 2012 - 05:14, said:

 

This allows you to modify things like pilot hit points, weapon accuracy and things of that nature? What about the AI coding?

 

 

gavagai, on 08 Nov 2012 - 10:48, said:

 

You can make changes to scripts for weapon accuracy and pilot vitality, but in some cases the game does not accept the changes. For example, we tried to increase dispersion before it was finally changed in 1.026, and it would say "you do not own that aircraft" if you tried to test it out. At one point the game would allow you to change pilot or observer vitality, but newer versions do not accept the changed script values. I don't think that's anything intentional from Moscow; mods are not supported and things always change from version to version.

You can mod many things with the GTP extractor, but the more fundamental things are off limits. The moddable AI scripts have limited power to change the AI's behavior. No one has done better than Criquet at improving the AI, but even then, his ability to change things was limited.

 

 

BADMUTHA, on 08 Nov 2012 - 11:03, said:

 

Yes that's what I'm talking about Gav, it would be nice if we could play with core game mechanics like pilot health or for example the amount of damage wings can take before falling apart. Just stuff that would make the game interesting and different in ways and allow the community to change things and find what they like the best and play with that; those who are into multiplayer will continue to play mods off like they do now.

And Criquet needs more access to the AI.

 

 

hq_Jorri, on 08 Nov 2012 - 11:15, said:

 

Very nice post from Jason! And we have some great guys here giving great efforts…with very good results. But indeed it seems the community could use a few more dedicated and skilled people who can put all the newfound technique and knowledge about modding into practice.

Meaning, Vander is not a highly experienced 2D/3D artist so his efficiency is low, and I'm sure he also has a lot of other projects running at the same time…and the same goes for AnKor who puts a lot of time into research and developing new tools and ways of modding, which means he does not actually have time to make new stuff or new maps!

Maybe Bbob could do some modeling…and 777 already knows Harry, he is a very good 3rd party to work on stuff!

 

 

HotTom, on 08 Nov 2012 - 14:50, said:

 

Jorri sure is good and volunteering other people to work for free. 

Seriously, "skill" is the governing factor IMO.

As I've said many times: If we had a more user-friendly Mission Editor, I would gladly devote the time and effort to crank out missions and campaigns. I've done many in other sims.

Fact is, the only people really good at using the VERY complex Mission Editor, and for whom it is intuitive, are guys like Vander and Pat Wilson who are computer gurus. So there is a chokepoint to output.

Same with modeling. It's a skill set I don't have but if someone (777 or a third party) designed a simpler way to create models, I would be glad to spend the time making them.

Being retired, time is one thing I have plenty of. 

Maybe someday we'd even see a Jorri mission or a Jorri map. 

 

 

hq_Jorri, on 08 Nov 2012 - 16:03, said:

 

I've tried my hand at both, and like yourself, indeed it's to complicated for me….

I'd love to make a small map, though…..or to just edit the Verdun map to something that's as immersive as possible.

 

Well, usability doesn't appear out of nowhere. It is either me or you who will have to puzzle over this stuff.
Road generator was ready a couple of days ago as I shown on screenshots - it took me one evening to make it working. However, I already spent more time making it user-friendly and usable for those who don't know about internal structure of roads. And I'm not yet satisfied with the result.
Still I target to make it ready no later than the end of this week. Then I'll take a break as I have other things long overdue, things I'm paid money for, you know 

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 10 Nov 2012 - 15:31, said:

 

AnKor,

You're doing great work. Everyone appreciates it. If the job gets too big shoot me an email and let's talk about it.

Jason

 

 

hq_Jorri, on 10 Nov 2012 - 15:53, said:

 

Huzzah!

 

 

AnKor85, on 11 Nov 2012 - 09:02, said:

 

Thanks, Jason 

—

And here is the editor as I promised. Sorry for a wall of text, but there are still so much to describe.

One thing though - although I'm putting the tool for public access and tried to make it as simple as time permits, it will be the best if experienced mappers like Lucas and WolfPac try it first so I can answer their questions and fix bugs or add features. I don't have time right now to answer questions from everyone.

Disclaimer: I did some testing but of course use at your own risk. And of course you should make backups of your maps (landscape_***) before attempting to edit them. Roads aren’t stored in gtp and aren’t affected by mods on/off switch. If you break something and don’t have backups you’ll have to use game launcher’s repair feature.

Extract the archive somewhere and start RoadEditor.exe, it requires .NET 4.0 which you most likely already have installed. During the first launch the tool will ask you about Rise of Flight folder. Select one and press OK, it will save your selection and won’t ask you anymore, but you will be able to change the folder later if needed.

Now, to the main (and only) screen of this tool.

First, you should choose one of available maps in the drop down list.
The tool will show basic information about the map and some folders, which you should note:

This is location (relative to ROF’s “data” folder) of road system from map’s height.ini:
Road System: graphics\LANDSCAPE_DF5x5Verdun\ROADS\RoadsSystem.ini
It is important to check that location is correct, because this is where the game will look for your road data. Note that winter and autumn versions of existing maps share the same road system. This means that when you edit roads for any of them changes will be visible for any of this map, so I recommend working with summer versions of the map to avoid confusion.
Note that if RoadssSystem.ini does not exists (for example you’ve made a new map) it will be created automatically.

Following line is important for editor:
Source Missions: graphics\landscape_df5x5verdun\Editor.Sources\RoadSystem
This is a new folder which will be created when you first export (see below) the existing road data or start editing.
It will contain .Group files which are exported for existing map, and you should put your .Mission file with modified roads in this folder.

Next folder normally matches the road system folder (without the file name).
Output: graphics\LANDSCAPE_DF5x5Verdun\Roads
It is based on BinaryPath value from roadsystem.ini. It may seem redundant here but I’m not sure how ROF road generation works, so I assume this is actually the output folder 


Next step, for working on existing maps is to export current state of roads. Of course you may skip it if you starting your work from scratch.
Export process creates a number of .Group files - roads_##.Group, railroads_##.Group, trenches_##.Group
Please note that due inconsistencies in ROF files trench lines from Main map will be exported for Verdun and Lake maps too. You should uncheck “Trenches” for these maps when exporting data.

ROF editor can’t handle too much icons at once (not sure why) so each exported file is limited to about 1000 icons. That’s why you may get a lot of them for complex maps.

Next step is RoadSystem.ini settings.
“Save/Load mode” defines how the game (or mission editor) processes roads data - they can completely ignore it, generate binaries or just load existing binaries.
Obviously you need to select second options (generate and save) when editing roads and third (load existing) when playing the game.
Width is just a width of the road (though not without quirks) - I decided it may be interesting to play with.

Don’t forget to click “Apply Settings” after changing any of these options.

And finally, at the bottom of the window goes the main feature of this tool – visual real-time road editing.
What you need to do to get it working.
Create a mission which uses your map and save it into “Source Missions” folder which is shown above. Now, you can either draw new roads from scratch or import one of existing groups.
Every time you click “Apply” in mission editors (assuming you already clicked “Start Real-Time Editing”) roads will be updated based on your mission.

Note that for large maps you won’t be able to add all roads into a mission at once. This is where things get a bit complex.
If you check “Include all files” the tool will build map based on ALL files (.Group and .Mission) from the sources folder. This means that you may use separate missions for separate parts of map. However, road processing is quite slow and you’d better have this option unchecked. Instead you can press “Rebuild All!” to include all files when you need it.

Note that .Group files, exported from original map are also included. However, you may already have one of those groups included in your mission. To avoid duplicates group have a special code in their “description” field. This code is unique for each group and thus allows to avoid duplicates by excluding already processed ones.
Furthermore, you can even “Ungroup” imported groups to simplify editing - each exported group contain additional empty group with name “Unique ID for …” and the same unique code. Unless you delete that one too you are safe from duplicates.

Finally, be careful doing export again will generate a new set of unique identifiers and thus you won’t be protected from duplicates in existing source missions.

Now a bit about editing process.
As you’ve seen on previous screenshot roads are edited by using multiple “Translator: Icon” connected by target links. You can make intersections by using more that one outgoing or incoming target links. Note that every road must have a beginning and an end, so no circles please.
To differentiate roads/railways/trenches - special “Icon ID” is used:
Attack Enemy Transport Column == Roads
Attack Enemy Trains == Railways
Attack Enemy Lines == Trenches
(you can also use “defend” versions of the same icons, but attack ones look better )

Also, there’s “Attack Enemy Bridges” icon to denote a bridge. Without it the road will go over the water as if it was solid ground, to avoid it but still keep the road as whole for routing purposes just put “Attack Enemy Bridges” icons on both sides of the river.
Actually devs have a tool that automates bridge placement, I may add into into this editor later if needed.

UPDATE


It was updated to fix some bugs (there was a serious bug with exporting large maps into groups, many roads could have been lost) and added new features including SVG export and import.

 

 

J.j., on 11 Nov 2012 - 15:23, said:

 

Sorry if my question is dumb, but after rereading the post twice, I still have one question:

doest this editor allow us to chnage and modify the location of the trenches on the current?
Ie, creating a different frontline for a mission, for example, setting place in 1917?

If so, to have all players in this mission have the version of frontline, you have to give same the edited landscape files?

 

 

AnKor85, on 11 Nov 2012 - 15:30, said:

 

Yes, now you can change the location of trenches for current map.
It will require more than just editing the trenches lines, but they are the most complex part.

And yes, you will have to give edited files to players. There are some issues with that (road binaries are huge!), but they can be avoided too.

I believe the best course of action now is as Jason suggested to cooperate and work together on a single project. I will provide technical help, if needed.

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 11 Nov 2012 - 19:35, said:

 

Very nice work AnKor!

Jason

 

 

rOEN911, on 11 Nov 2012 - 22:32, said:

 

well i search all the pages very good Work,I was wondering how about the FPS?

 

 

AnKor85, on 12 Nov 2012 - 03:17, said:

 

6 downloads already. That's about 6 times more than I expected 
Has anybody got any results?

J.j., I didn't mention it yesterday, but I've seen something about moving front on checksix forums. I can't read French, but I suppose it xjouve's work 
Now, somebody can try to draw correct trench lines with this tool and by the way, I also figured out how to add smoke, ambient explosions and burnt trees over new no-mans land.

Well, it depends on what you are going to do 
Anyway I suppose there won't be any problems with FPS if you add more roads.
There's always a balance between "memory" and "speed" in software development. Roads in ROF are optimized for speed as much as possible, but the side effect of such optimization is that binaries are just huge.

—-

Some hints about using Mission Editor for drawing roads and stuff:

You can add one icon, set its "Icon Id" to what you need and then press "Shift" and click on the map - next icon of the same type will appear where you clicked and they will be already connected. This way, by keeping "Shift" pressed you can quickly add a lot of icons and make a road.

To add a target link between two existing icons you just select the first one, press "Shift+T" once - mouse cursor will change - and then click on the second icon. The target link will be added between them.

If you have 3 icons connected like 1->2->3 and you just go and delete icon #2, the editor will automatically reconnect #1 and #3, so the result will look like 1->3.

Unfortunately there's no easy way to insert a new icon between existing two. Assuming you have following link 1->2 and want to add #3 between them. First you have to delete outgoing target link from #1 (there's a list of targets in icon's properties - click on id of the #2 in this list and press "Delete" on keyboard). Then you add icon #3 as target for #1 as described above (i.e. shift-click to create new or shift-T to connect existing) and set target link from #3 to #2, so you'll get 1->3->2.

Now a couple of important things that I forgot to mention yesterday.
My tool doesn't build road binaries, it only converts between icons in missions to special .ini files and vice versa. Road binaries are automatically built by the Mission Editor or the game itself when a mission is loaded. Of course it didn't happen every time but only when "Save/Load mode" is set to "Generate and save". That's why I you need to set this mode before editing and restore "Load existing" after editing.

Additionally, there's a bug in road generation - it only works when your data are in "LANDSCAPE" folder (the folder of original main map). To workaround this problem for other maps I silently move their road data to the main folder when you click "Start Real-Time Editing" while backup of original roads are saved as "ROADS.EDITOR.BACKUP". When you close my tool or stop editing roads for main map are automatically restored.
Now, although this code should be reliable something may still fail - that's why you should make a backup of your "LANDSCAPE" folder too, even if you aren't going to edit it.
Also, I need to mention that this workaround uses a feature of NTFS file system (directory junctions), that's why my tool won't work if your game is installed on FAT32 drive. Though I doubt anyone uses FAT32 nowadays for hard drives - basically if you don't know what I'm speaking about you don't have to worry.

 

 

ROSS_DiFiS, on 12 Nov 2012 - 04:28, said:

 

it work!

Спасибо тебе добрый человек! пошел играться с твоей тулзой 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rama, on 12 Nov 2012 - 06:09, said:

 

Super job.
Now the possibility is open to adapt the front to a given period.

Many thanks AnKor.

 

 

SYN_Vander, on 12 Nov 2012 - 06:46, said:

 

Excellent work! Would someone like to try to make an early March 1918 frontline in the Somme area? This is basically the 1917-1918 Hindenburg line. I could really use this for a new campaign!

 

 

WW1EAF_Paf, on 12 Nov 2012 - 09:25, said:

 

You are the man! 

 

 

AnKor85, on 12 Nov 2012 - 09:50, said:

 

Paf,
Let's say you want to add some roads for Roucourt. Ignoring railways and trenches at the moment.

First and foremost, make a backup of your "landscape" folder 

Then you should run my tool, select "landscape" map, remove marks from Railroads and Trenches because you don't need them and click Export. The tool will work for a bit and eventually produce a set of roads_##.Group files in "data\graphics\LANDSCAPE\Editor.Sources\RoadSystem" folder.

Then you create an empty mission that uses the main map and save it in the same folder.

Next step is the "difficult" one: you have to find those roads_##.Group files (one or more) which have roads adjacent to your area of interest. The problem is that the editor will explode once you import too many groups, but perhaps it can handle 3 or 4 of them at once.

Finally, in my tool set "Save/Load mode" for roads to "Generate and save" and click "Apply Settings" and click "Start Real-Time Editing".

Now while "real-time" editing is active you can work on your mission by adding "Attack Enemy Transport Column" icons which will be converted into roads when you click "Apply" in the editor.
You can ungroup imported groups or add your roads into them to make editing more comfortable, but you should keep groups "Unique ID for …" as is - they are needed to make sure my tool won't create duplicate roads.

However, take note that all roads not imported into your mission will disappear. This is done for performance reasons, because rebuilding whole network takes time.
To get all roads you should select "Include all files" in my tool. This will cause all exported groups to be processed as if they were included into the mission.

Finally, when you finished set "Save/Load mode" back to "Load existing" and click "Apply Settings" to stop the game from rebuilding road system every time the map is loaded.

That's it 

One additional note: you've put a great attention to tree placement in your project, unfortunately roads produce very wide cuts in the forests. It may look bad if you add new roads too close to your forests.

 

 

xjouve, on 12 Nov 2012 - 13:06, said:

 

Excellent work AnKor85! 

 

 

hq_Jorri, on 12 Nov 2012 - 13:09, said:

 

xjouve than you might be the perfect person to bring us updated maps with new front line and corrected roads and rails, considering the great work you have done before? 

 

 

1PL-Lucas-1Esk, on 12 Nov 2012 - 13:20, said:

 

Let's figure it out 

Many thanks, AnKor!

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 12 Nov 2012 - 13:55, said:

 

AnKor,

Just a curious question. Can this be used to place other 3D things and bend them like say a hedgerow object?

Jason

 

 

1PL-Lucas-1Esk, on 12 Nov 2012 - 14:07, said:

 

Works on custom maps as well

Thanks again! 

 

 

WW1EAF_Paf, on 12 Nov 2012 - 14:11, said:

 

AnKor, thank you for the explanation. When I have some more time again I will test it. I think I gonna stay with roadtextures on my texture because of the forests and alleys. But it is great to have the oppertunity to connect the drawn roads now with the roadnetwork. Will look much more "natural".

Lucas, Warsaw is coming? 



I just was thinking the very same. Would be great to have a tool like this for simple walls & hedgerows.

 

 

1PL-Lucas-1Esk, on 12 Nov 2012 - 14:22, said:

 

@Paf,

I have everything done except of roads, rails and custom buildings. I want to learn the stuff on this map. If the community will want to have such a map, well maybe it can be somehow added. But i want to experiment on it, like placing own village and city objects as well as terrain textures. Lots of work but it may be helpful later as a 'base'

sorry for OT. Once I will have someting more serious, I will create a dedicated topic.

 

 

AnKor85, on 12 Nov 2012 - 14:57, said:

 

Jason,
Roads in ROF are quite unusual objects - they can bend into smooth curves without performance impact, but the drawback is that they are absolutely flat. Simulating such curves with normal 3D objects will either look bad or become too resource heavy, and although I'm not an expert in computer graphics I doubt ROF's technology for roads can produce non-flat objects.
I thought about making a simple 3D object like a line of telegraph poles with wires and automatically placing them along roads. But if I make a straight line which is 50m long I will need about 19000 of such objects for roads on the small Lake map. If I make it 400m long the number of objects will be less, but it won't be able to follow road curvature very well.

Lucas,
Great to see it works for you!
Unfortunately game doesn't support intersection of more than 2 roads (upper-right corner of your image).
Also I see there is one intersection at lower-right corner which didn't formed properly. I see it happens sometimes, but not sure why. Either my bug, or some kind of in-game requirement.
You can also play with textures (see graphics\landscape\textures\ folder in one of gtp files) and road width to make them better fit the city.

@All,
I said I'll take a break (which is true), but in meantime I want to add support for SVG import/export into this tool. Editing roads and trenches in svg format may be easier for large scale work with fine-tuning done in the mission editor.

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 12 Nov 2012 - 15:03, said:

 

Ya that's what I was thinking. I'll ask the guys about it, but I doubt anything can be done.

Telephone poles should not be along every road in my opinion. Maybe just main roads between major towns or something. I'm not sure how common they were in 1914-1918.

Jason

 

 

NakedSquirrel, on 12 Nov 2012 - 15:45, said:

 

With hedgerows…

Can road objects be tilted 90 degrees? Perhaps 3-4 roads or a combined road object could be used to simulate hedge rows? And since I doubt roads have a separate collision model, perhaps an 'invisible' forest could be used, or perhaps a forest area without 3d tree trunks.

 

 

J.j., on 12 Nov 2012 - 16:21, said:

 

Yes, you're right, I've included his work in my modpack since he has gone MIA for a long time. But I've just saw that xjouve is back!

On the other hand, the part underlined interests me on the highest point!

 

 

=Fifi=, on 12 Nov 2012 - 18:06, said:

 

Telephone/telagraph poles were mainly along railroads because they had an agreement with railroads company.
And they were very few only between big cities even in 1914.

 

 

SYN_Haashashin, on 12 Nov 2012 - 18:22, said:

 

Works nicely.

Just did a quick test on it, Added some roads and moved the trenches.
Gonna start a proyect base on your work ankor. S!

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 12 Nov 2012 - 19:17, said:

 

AnKor,

Can your tool add more flat objects like different types of roads or trenches to add more variety?

As I've stated earlier, I think you guys should organize a unit and make a test subject as proof of concept.

By the way, the Channel map has several new carpets and substrates and building and stuff that could be used elsewhere as well. I really like our new factory substrate.

I think you guys should divide the big map into like 5 sectors (maps within the map) like Vander has done with his previous work and then build up a sector at a time. But maybe take one sector and build it up and then build a few missions based on it and give to the public to test. Try to push the limits a bit.

Or you can just build Paris. 

Jason

 

 

MarcoRossolini, on 13 Nov 2012 - 06:53, said:

 

Such a difficult choice…

Looks like you have the royal seal of approval fellas, good luck!

 

 

ROSS_DiFiS, on 13 Nov 2012 - 09:44, said:

 

Roads for small map.
 

 

 

AnKor85, on 13 Nov 2012 - 14:24, said:

 

Well, no. It is not an object in that sense. Think of it as if roads were just painted over the ground (although it is not entirely correct, but a good analogy to show limitations).

It doesn't depend on my tool.
Right now game engine has strictly three types of "roads": highways, railways, trenches. They basically differ in texture and how AI considers them for navigation. It seems that having some variety shouldn't be too difficult - just allow more than one texture for trenches or roads, but keep them the same for AI. But again I'm not an expert and have no idea what limitations are there in the game engine. So at the moment it is not possible.

I'll write a separate post about moving burnt trees, smoke, and explosions, but later. It is quite simple process actually, however don't expect anyone to be able to remove ambient flak with that knowledge - all components are controlled by a single bitmap: no smoke without ambient flak and no burnt trees without smoke.

—-

Guys,
I just tried to play around with moving front lines, and it seems my tool has some issues with exporting. This might mean that I have to check and fix some possible bugs, and I don't currently have time for that. And I need to add SVG import too, so it will be easier to work on large areas without bothering that the mission editor will crash after adding one more icon (to several thousands of existing ones ).

And I want to remind what Jason says. Listen to him 
If you cooperate somehow to work on a single (even "proof of concept" grade) project - it I will be good for everyone, and I will be able to provide more focused help.

 

 

Jason_Williams, on 13 Nov 2012 - 15:48, said:

 

Roger all that AnKor. Thanks.

Jason

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 16 Nov 2012 - 05:44, said:

 

Hello Ankor,
Sorry i havent responded properly before page 28

Well Done !
and ofcourse

THANK YOU ! 

lifes got complicted for me at present so i can not use this great asset but fingers crossed within a month things should settle down enough for me to at least have a home and internet again.

one thought i saw in this thread should be looked into more as its got merit

road side bushes or hedgerows

granted the hedgerow would be visible only but have no collision model because the road texture if lifted off the ground does nothing to a plane or vehicle but it would look right and give depth of view.
COD has visible TREES that do not hve collision and i do not think we shoulod follow that route but hedges and bushes i think is a healthy compromise.
Imagine hedges with afew well placed trees mixed along the hedges and it is worth thinking about an experiment to overlay road textures

Question is :-

how many different billboard textured road maps would be needed to give a illusion of hedgerow for 360 visual effect 4 or 6 ?
it is possible in theory

Anyway Ankor Well Done

i will use this thread its golden and excellant !
It Works !
Greatly required and Very Welcoming



Lucas, i made a map that uses 40x40 tiles it works fine for photo realistic texturing instead of 10x10, it would be nice to allow 1024x1024 or dare i say it 2048x2048 res tiles just to compliment rof terrain complex detail.

 

 

AnKor85, on 16 Nov 2012 - 06:11, said:

 

Interesting idea, but I haven't looked into how billboards for trees are made. But honestly, I don't want to 
I doubt it is possible with current rendering engine limitations.

 

 

WW1EAF_Paf, on 16 Nov 2012 - 08:51, said:

 

Would it be possible to "clone" the trenches to bring diffrent type of trenches into the game?
For example to have a combination of staight and zigzagging lines?
 

 

 

AnKor85, on 16 Nov 2012 - 09:34, said:

 

Jason asked the same question above.
Well, I said before and should say again "no, without changes to game engine it is not possible", but I'm beginning to believe I can trick the game into using more than one texture for trenches. Or roads for that matter. But I have other work to do. So maybe someday.

 

 

WW1EAF_Paf, on 16 Nov 2012 - 10:06, said:

 

Oh yes, now I see it 

 

 

VonGerlach, on 18 Dec 2012 - 00:59, said:

 

AnKor is there any mod useable form of the tool or the improved rail station/tracks you demo'ed in the opening post for us to try? i am just arriving to read this thread and started at the end and jumped around, saw some remarkable map making going on too. Was not sure if you had released anything yet or not or if this is still research and development. thanks for the hard work. Looks very promising.

 

 

AnKor85, on 18 Dec 2012 - 03:53, said:

 

VonGerlach,
Well, no, I don't have anything to show. Maybe someone else is doing something, but I don't know.
I thought about making some examples, based on historical images shown in this thread, after all it is not too hard. The main problem however is that there is no easy way to distribute modified road network to other players – ROF doesn't support this kind of mods. The only reliable way is to make a separate map (even if it will be basically the same as original but with modified roads), but then you won't have any missions using the new map…

I'm really disappointed about so many underdeveloped features. There could be a lot of interesting mods, but alas, for every idea there are way too many obstacles to overcome.

 

 

O_WolfPac, on 18 Dec 2012 - 15:11, said:

 

Hello Ankor,

I found a simple way to correct the problem of "you won't have any missions using the new map."

just open the mission in the editor then copy it all as a " group " and then paste onto new map as a Group and save again 

works a treat

if someone makes a map and its complete,,, i will hold my hand up and put the map up for download on Oceanicwing.com till such time as the offical ROF MOD Website is setup and ready to take over.
I have had alot of discussions with my webhost regarding the size of the zip file of a Totally new map be it a mod map or not and they are happy to host extra large files for download in mass downloads via multiple mirrors the only request they ask for ,is that they can advertise the company services on the mirror download webpage.
So distrubution could also be resolved

But then again ROF may have a MOD Website soon ,,,so again problem solved 
Time and completed item is key to the success.

Ankor , small request please,
Can you provide some guidance on "Quickstart installation"
I have been messing around with a map please , it would be nice to have a total overview of whats required for a completed project and quick start is something i have never touched as i thought it was impossible to achieve with a modded map , guidance on how it quick start all works, please

Best Regards
Tony

Edited September 22, 2023 by TG-55Panthercules