Cessna 152 aerobatics

[LukeFF]

 

[Gingerwelsh]

I use to love doing this. ?

..

[JG1_Vonrd]

The A152 Aerobat was my introduction to aerobatic flying, the best choice I had made after getting my PPL. Spins and recovers beautifully. Too bad they didn't go more than one turn in the video. Bill Kirshner, the author of several classic flight training books including the classic "Basic Aerobatic Manual" logged thousands of spins but didn't count any less than three turns. I think the FAA screwed up when they stopped making spin training as one of the requirements for a PPL.

Kirshner's Aerobat is in the Smithsonian: https://www.si.edu/object/cessna-152-aerobat%3Anasm_A20070077000

[ZachariasX]

On 8/8/2023 at 9:00 PM, JG1_Vonrd said:

I think the FAA screwed up when they stopped making spin training as one of the requirements for a PPL.

This! Seems like today they became affraid of flying. People pay with their lives for not properly learning to fly anymore. Being taught to not get into a spin is nowhere near as useful as being proficient in spinning. And by being the latter, you also are taught the former. But not vuce versa.

[unlikely_spider]

3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

This! Seems like today they became affraid of flying. People pay with their lives for not properly learning to fly anymore. Being taught to not get into a spin is nowhere near as useful as being proficient in spinning. And by being the latter, you also are taught the former. But not vuce versa.

Weren't more people being killed during spin recovery training than in actual non-training accidents that involved a spin?

[ZachariasX]

19 hours ago, unlikely_spider said:

Weren't more people being killed during spin recovery training than in actual non-training accidents that involved a spin?

That would be shocking indeed, as a spin is a straightforward maneuver such as a hammerhead.

*A lot* of peple died because they did not intuitively grasp the situation of not having enough airspeed. This is not just about staying in the spin until they lawndart, AF447 is an infamous example of stalling without spinning with the pilot unable to understand the situation he‘s in as well as him not understanding the aircraft in this situation. If he only learned to fly…

 

The stall and the spin are situations a pilot might find himself in for *reasons* and then he better be familiar in dealing with it as with pouring beer from a pitcher instead of being scared to death from a situation that even flight instructors don‘t dare entering.

[unlikely_spider]

4 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

That would be shocking indeed, as a spin is a straightforward maneuver such as a hammerhead.

*A lot* of peple died because they did not intuitively grasp the situation of not having enough airspeed. This is not just about staying in the spin until they lawndart, AF447 is an infamous example of stalling without spinning with the pilot unable to understand the situation he‘s in as well as him not understanding the aircraft in this situation. If he only learned to fly…

 

The stall and the spin are situations a pilot might find himself in for *reasons* and then he better be familiar in dealing with it as with pouring beer from a pitcher instead of being scared to death from a situation that even flight instructors don‘t dare entering.

All pilots learn and practice stall recovery. And all flight instructors practice spin recovery, just not private and sport pilots (in the US at least).

 

Either way, my understanding is that the majority of spin accidents occur when the situation develops in close proximity to the ground, because most of these events happen during takeoff, landing, or in the traffic pattern. And in these cases, there is not enough time for even very experienced pilots to recover from a fully-developed spin. Sure, we can practice spins at 5,000 ft AGL in the practice area, but in real life, why would I ever be in a situation where I'm having a spin develop while I'm en-route at that altitude? The point is that they were discontinued because people were being killed performing spins during primary training for private pilots, but the cost did not seem to be worth the risk, because in the majority of real-life events where a pilot entered a spin, it would be too late to do anything regardless of their level of training.

Edited August 11, 2023 by unlikely_spider

[ZachariasX]

56 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

Either way, my understanding is that the majority of spin accidents occur when the situation develops in close proximity to the ground, because most of these events happen during takeoff, landing, or in the traffic pattern.

I remember my flight instructor stating that basically all crashes are due to insufficient proximity to the ground. (I also remember him answering a student about how high one could fly with that kind of glider „That‘s entirely a matter of intelligence.“)

 

But on a more serious note, I will go as far as saying that a student dying while performing a mandatory spin training is the FAA‘s problem, while somebody just being unlucky on his own and spinning into the ground is not. Thus, ten dead pilots are just dandy (their own problem), but one dying during mandatory spin training provokes awkward questions to people who loath such, as it hurts the „career“.

 

I would say that people not practising spins but just „learning how to not spin“ will yield a far larger net number of dead pilots. Given what I wrote just above, I go as far as saying we see Franz Kafka at work here. Institutional logic has nothing to do with real world reason. (I guess everyone working in corporate environment knows that.)

 

Flying is a considerably dangerous hobby and being affraid of your aircraft doesn‘t help on that matter. It is clear that spin training is deeply unpopular for many not opting for a basic aerobatic rating and hence there are probably many that are not unhappy not having to do it. Also, I haven‘t heard of any airliner training that would include training spins, but please anyone knowing of such, please tell me.

[JG1_Vonrd]

Yeah, one of the reasons for the FAA to stop the requirement for spin training is that there were crashes and fatalities during the training. I don't think that it was a substantial number but media jumped in on the sensationalism. One of the reasons for the crashes was starting at too low an altitude. It takes time to climb and instructors maybe didn't want to spend the time.

The requirement was eliminated in 1949 and I'm not sure what the instructor spin training requirements were but, given the unacceptably large number of accidents in training, I would assume that the instructors of the time had just minimal experience in spinning an aircraft, the multitude of ways to enter a spin and probably only in one type of aircraft. Thus, more accidents than should be expected from a well designed and trained part of the program for training. 

The requirement for a CFI in CFAR 61.187 is actually pretty vague:

• (1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins...

Not very specific is it? It's pretty much left up to what the instructor feels is adequate. There should be a syllabus of what spin training actually encompasses and what the applicant has to accomplish.

• All of the different ways that a spin can be initiated.
• Proficiency in spin recovery in fully developed spins of more than 3 turns.
• A minimum amount of spins.
• Demonstrated in the aircraft the instructor is rated to instruct in.

I had my initial training for PPL in the Piper Tomahawk, much maligned at the time as an aircraft that you DEFINETLY don't want to spin. I could tell that my instructor was definitely nervous when doing the incipient spin training. Once I got my ticket, I was super timid about anything more than a 30 deg bank. Flying was somewhat scary and definitely not fun. I decided to push my basic abilities and take an introductory aerobatic course in the Aerobat. After 10 hours, I was freed of the trepidation of actually FLYING!

 

After many more hours in various aerobatic aircraft, I had full confidence in maneuvering in all parts of the flight regime. I intuitively understood how the botched overshoot of the turn from base to final could (would) put me into an unrecoverable spin (too much rudder into the turn in a high bank attitude, too slow, pulling too much pitch and then trying to get out of it by banking opposite with ailerons, This is the typical scenario). 

 

I guess my point is that practice of the spin environment (under the supervision of a COMPETANT instructor) allows one to be a competent / confident / unafraid pilot. No, you won't be able to recover from a snap at 300 ft AGL if you screw the pooch on base to final but with multiple experiences of this scenario at a safe altitude, you probably won't ever be in that situation.

 

The current requirements and attitude toward this are inadequate and result in too many pilots becoming the victim of inadequate training.

 

Even ATP / airline pilots need this kind of training. I've seen numerous "Air Disasters" where the Captain is PULLING BACK on the yoke / stick while his plane is in a stall / spin. Hard to believe.

[ZachariasX]

Very good points! And so much this:

4 hours ago, JG1_Vonrd said:

After many more hours in various aerobatic aircraft, I had full confidence in maneuvering in all parts of the flight regime. I intuitively understood how the botched overshoot of the turn from base to final could (would) put me into an unrecoverable spin (too much rudder into the turn in a high bank attitude, too slow, pulling too much pitch and then trying to get out of it by banking opposite with ailerons, This is the typical scenario). 

 

I think it  is important being given an honest aircraft to practise in, and I guess an Aerobat is just that. One must learn how the aircraft talks to you. Some planes are honest, they always tell you how things are. Some are less so. It helps then really knowing how to read your plane. But it is something one has to learn.