Which joystick to go for - CH or TM?

[4S_Nero]

Dimenticavo che su CH hangar puoi scaricare profili fatti dagli utenti. Appena BoS verra rilasciato sta sicuro che qualcuno provvedera'.

[Original_Uwe]

I can't see playing any WW2 prop sim without a FFB joystick.  Most do not realize what they are missing.  It's like track ir or rudder pedals.  You can get a msffb2 for less than $100, and it's a sturdy joystick.

 

You know, you and sothers keep saying that, but Ill be damned if I can find where.

[gavagai]

Amazon has 3 vendors with them right now: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00005NIMB/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

 

Ask if it ships with the power cord before you buy.

 

And there are a bunch on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=%22microsoft+sidewinder%22+2&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.X%22microsoft+sidewinder%22+%22force+feedback%22+2&_nkw=%22microsoft+sidewinder%22+%22force+feedback%22+2&_sacat=0

Edited August 13, 2013 by gavagai

[J2_Trupobaw]

Amazon has 3 vendors with them right now: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00005NIMB/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

 

Ask if it ships with the power cord before you buy.

 

And there are a bunch on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=%22microsoft+sidewinder%22+2&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.X%22microsoft+sidewinder%22+%22force+feedback%22+2&_nkw=%22microsoft+sidewinder%22+%22force+feedback%22+2&_sacat=0

As long as you live in States... Shipping from most of these to Europe can almost double the price. I'm waiting fourth week now for mine now, and I choose German vendor :/ .

Edited August 13, 2013 by Trupobaw

[TheNotoriousFNG]

Amazon has 3 vendors with them right now: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00005NIMB/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

 

Ask if it ships with the power cord before you buy.

 

And there are a bunch on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=%22microsoft+sidewinder%22+2&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.X%22microsoft+sidewinder%22+%22force+feedback%22+2&_nkw=%22microsoft+sidewinder%22+%22force+feedback%22+2&_sacat=0

 

How does the MSFFB2 compare to Logitech's G940? I'm talking just the stick and its FFB, not the complete package in regards to the Logitech G940.

 

I'd like to get a FFB stick but I'm hesitant to buy a used, discontinued product. Then again, reviews for the G940 don't exactly make one really stoked to buy it

[gavagai]

Yeah, that's why a msffb2 with rudders and throttle from another manufacturer are the way to go.

[Sokol1]

CH solved the problem by using industrial quality potentiometers that don't wear and don't lose precision, to ensure there are no errors.    

 

Last week I take a CH F-16 Fighterstick USB (belongs to a colleague) that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bInkCY2M80g&feature=player_embedded'>show spikes in Y axis, 

to inspect. Despite this the josytick this in great conditions and work OK.

 

Remove the potentiometer, open his case, and notice that resistive trail show grooves due wiper, or wear...

Clear and lube pot internal parts reduces these spikes but not totally, this one need a replacement.

 

The problem is that since the last March CH stopped selling spare parts for end users, and at momment his email support presented no alternative...*

I dont find the specific potentiometer in any online electronic shop, even the manufacturer (CTS) dont have then in catalog ...

 

* I suppose with other brands get replacement part is more difficult.

 

Meanwhile I compare this CH joystick with Thrustmaster T.16000M that use the same Warthog HALL sensor in X, Y axis,

and frankly, in games I dont notice any difference to "put the gunsight piper over the enemy plane" despite being used to the second. 

 

Sokol1

[DD_Crash]

How does the MSFFB2 compare to Logitech's G940? I'm talking just the stick and its FFB, not the complete package in regards to the Logitech G940.

 

I'd like to get a FFB stick but I'm hesitant to buy a used, discontinued product. Then again, reviews for the G940 don't exactly make one really stoked to buy it

The Logi is also discontinued. Shame as it had a lot of potential. The Sidewinder is better because my 940 was poor around the neutral position however the 940 has more buttons. Ideal solution is fit an X52 handle onto a Sidewinder base.

[Sokol1]

The problem is that since the last March CH stopped selling spare parts for end users, and at moment his email support presented no alternative...*

I dont find the specific potentiometer in any online electronic shop, even the manufacturer (CTS) dont have then in catalog ...

 

 

The response of support CH support about potentiometers replacement:

 

 

Hello ,

 

Unfortunately, we will not be offering components/spare parts through our distribution network nor direct. You may wish to request a quote for a new fighterstick through an authorized reseller or amazon.com:

 

http://www.chproducts.com/13-29003-RESE ... TIONAL.php

 

We apologize for the inconvenience.

 

Regards,

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Technical Sales Supervisor

 

Buy a new (joystick)...

 

Sokol1

Edited August 14, 2013 by Sokol1

[nonebrucevonlodi]

Hi all

I hope this is the right forum for my questions and comments.  I have a MSFFB2 flight stick, ch pedals and really like it. Question is: what HOTAS should I buy to compliment what I presently have? Next question I have is I bought and tried playing Cliffs of Dover, I could not use the throttle on the MSFF2 stick with any consistency.  Every time I wanted to adjust the throttle, I had to put the mouse cursor over the image of the throttle and click on it. I really hope that BOS is easier to program controls!  A side note about MSFF2- I have three of them and they are really sturdy! the only problem that I have seen is-the fire button fails.  I have bought new buttons and replaced them sucessfully so will contine to use this stick.

[JG27_Chivas]

Hi all

I hope this is the right forum for my questions and comments.  I have a MSFFB2 flight stick, ch pedals and really like it. Question is: what HOTAS should I buy to compliment what I presently have? Next question I have is I bought and tried playing Cliffs of Dover, I could not use the throttle on the MSFF2 stick with any consistency.  Every time I wanted to adjust the throttle, I had to put the mouse cursor over the image of the throttle and click on it. I really hope that BOS is easier to program controls!  A side note about MSFF2- I have three of them and they are really sturdy! the only problem that I have seen is-the fire button fails.  I have bought new buttons and replaced them sucessfully so will contine to use this stick.

 

By far the best Throttle in any Hotas system IMHO is the Cougar Throttle.   It fits the hand perfectly and all the switches, buttons, and rotaries on the throttle are very well placed.   I use a MSFFB2 joystick, Cougar Throttle, and Saitek Pro Rudder pedals.    I've owned almost every other joystick/Hotas on the market including the Warthog, G940, CH, Cougar, X52.   The MSFFB2 is the best for putting bullets on target,  and you have great intuitive control with the Cougar Throttle.   I just like the toebrakes in the Saitek Throttle.  You can use the Cougar Joystick as a button bay, or just take the circuit board out, like I did, as unfortunately the Cougar Throttle hookup has to go thru the Joystick.

[DD_Arthur]

Not to derail this thread, but seeing all this commenting about FFB joysticks, I'm curious as to the FFB users' take on the Logitech G940? Aside from the obvious issues, is it worth the money or should one look more into obtaining the "holy grail" MSFFB2?

 

 

 

 

 

I use a MSFFB2 that I found on Ebay a couple of years ago.  I'm looking for another at the moment to be future proof.  It's a Charlton Heston thing - "you'll take it from my cold, dead hands" - but I use it in conjunction with a G940 throttle unit!  I've only just got this but it's sturdy and seems to work very well.  It needs to be plugged into the G940 stick unit to work. 

 

I've never used the stick. It sits out of the way on the floor so I can't really compare them except to point out I was given all this gear by a squadmate at last month's Flying Legends, Duxford.  He'd bought it a couple of years ago and ended up hating it.

Another squadmate has the pedals which he's converted to run through a switch box with a Leo Bodnar board.

 

My mate now uses a MSFFB2.  

Edited August 19, 2013 by arthursmedley

[skline00]

Have used a MSFFB2 with all my flight sims. For me the best.

[Dakpilot]

Hope the MSFFB2 is as good as everyone says  am picking one up today....after two years of searching!

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[skline00]

Hope the MSFFB2 is as good as everyone says  am picking one up today....after two years of searching!

 

Cheers Dakpilot

You won't be sorry other than why you didn't buy it sooner!

[trumps]

I had a MSFFB2 stick many years ago, it was good couldn't fault it, but there is no way i could go back to it from my CH setup. there is no issue with regard to balancing or holding the aircraft on the edge of a stall in any decent sim, the audiable cues and responses of the aircraft are more than enough, and no doubt have the same trigger points that generate the stick responses.

[crossfade]

There are stats and comments from everybody regarding this issue but imho what it comes down to is feel and this is a very individual thing as i have said earlier i now have a warthog setup with saitek pedals but from experience if microsoft had a   ffb3 hotas and pedals to match i would be on it in a flash this is being said with me having never tried the ch products (and i have only heard good things about them) i have tried the Saitek x-52(after time there is degradation in performance) the MS ffb2(no hotas  if there was we would not be having this conversation IMHO) and the warthog which i now use and am happy with but is it the ultimate?.

As i said it comes down to the user and experience and trying out  as much hardware as you can get your hands on.

If i could have anything (with my experience) i would go with MS ffb3 hotas with pedals but that is what i would like sad that it will never happen .

Edited August 27, 2013 by crossfade

[=FI=Macca]

Been using Logitech Force 3D a couple of years ago, before that a Zeppelin commander Joystick Logitech died, I switched to X52 from Saitek, been using it till today with Saitek pedals. Today got meself a MSFFB2 in mint condition for about 25 Euros, after fortunately losing an auction on Ebay. I'm so glad I bought this MSFFB2 here in Poland, otherwise shipping it from the States would cost a lot, plus taxes, don't even wanna think bout it. Just have hada few flights in ROF and Il-2 46 and it is absolutely fantastic, now using it with my Saitek X52 throttle and pedals. Good setup

[Sokol1]

 

 

 have tried the Saitek x-52(after time there is degradation in performance) the MS ffb2(no hotas   if there was we would not be having this conversation IMHO) 

 

But, if use Saitek X-52 throttle + MS FF2 = HOTAS. 

 

Sokol1

[TP_Merlin]

I've had my CH Fighterstick and Pro Throttle for 10 years and they are still going strong. I like the light spring action for WWI & WWII sims. The Pro Throttle is an ugly little beast and not everyone likes the slide action of the throttle but I found it to be good for small throttle corrections when flying in formation as I did years ago flying bombers in Aces High and Warbirds.

 

Had mine for ten years too. only issue I have found is that being USB 1.1, the Flightstick and throttle will not work in USB 3 ports but the rudders do.

[Eagle-OnePirabee]

My ForceFeedback MS is broke. It was the very old version with the pin plug-in. Now I have an untested low-economy USB Saitek. But what you guys have got to understand (voice drops to a whisper) I live in the third-world and don't enjoy the wide range of choices to be had elsewhere. But I'm hoping with what Ive got I'll be able to hold my own over the Stalingrad skies,eh? (*wink*)

[VeryOldMan]

I can't see playing any WW2 prop sim without a FFB joystick.  Most do not realize what they are missing.  It's like track ir or rudder pedals.  You can get a msffb2 for less than $100, and it's a sturdy joystick.

 

Funny.. I never liked it,   in fact hated to the point i gave my  MSFFB2. 

As long as you live in States... Shipping from most of these to Europe can almost double the price. I'm waiting fourth week now for mine now, and I choose German vendor :/ .

 Double? You are lucky!

 

 

A Warthog here costs 3000 R$,  that is roughly  US$ 1300 

[SYN_DerHesse70]

Funny.. I never liked it,   in fact hated to the point i gave my  MSFFB2. 

 

 

  Never again without FFB!!

[VeryOldMan]

  Never again without FFB!!

REally I do not like FFB because the forces transmitted are completely unrealistic. Things you would not feel trough the stick ...  and other stuff I hated. FFB is much  better used in  car racing games nowadays.

[=IRFC=NakedSquirrel]

I've had a CH stick for a few years now.  I have not had to re-calibrate it, and I do not get any spikes.  It is a very precise and durable stick.

 

The X52 I used and the cheaper logitec/saitek sticks always had sensor spikes and I had to re-calibrate them every other day by the end of their lifespan.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

REally I do not like FFB because the forces transmitted are completely unrealistic. Things you would not feel trough the stick ...  and other stuff I hated. FFB is much  better used in  car racing games nowadays.

 

I'm with you. I liked the MSFFB2 because it had a nice strong centering force but I never used the actual FFB more than a couple of times. As you say it is unrealistic and felt horrible, also I found it made aiming far to difficult. I would say it is not needed to detect the onset of stalls....you should be able avoid stalls before they happen unless those people are T&B all the time on the deck.

[VeryOldMan]

I've had a CH stick for a few years now.  I have not had to re-calibrate it, and I do not get any spikes.  It is a very precise and durable stick.

 

The X52 I used and the cheaper logitec/saitek sticks always had sensor spikes and I had to re-calibrate them every other day by the end of their lifespan.

 

 

Spikes on saitek hardware are usually because their cables do not have ferrite cores, therefore they  get interference from eletromagnetic signals.  You can solve it by buyign a ferrite  core and wrapping  the cable near the stick around the core a few times. The spike themselves  screw the  centerign of the stick because saitek software  automatically adjust the  calibration based on the largest inputs it receives.

[Crow]

I Love(d) My Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2

I loved my MSFFB2. I used it for 13 years before the electric motors gave out and the stick wouldn't recenter properly anymore. I would buy another except it lacks a lot of the buttons and axes needed in flight sims that simulate modern jets (Falcon 4, DCS, etc.). If I only flew WWII aircraft, full stop, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. As others have said there are problems with FFB and flight sims, but I don't believe they were the MSFFB2's fault. I think FFB programming just needs a lot more emphasis. If we saw the same level of fidelity there that we see in racing sims (iRacing, RACE07, rFactor, etc.) then we'd see an increase in quality FFB joysticks being sold. Until the software can properly convey the experience though, I'm afraid FFB will always be a secondary concern to things like build construction, precision, software, number of buttons/axes, and smoothness.

 

 

Thrustmaster Review:

I now own a Thrustmaster Warthog. I would say it is not worth the money I paid for it. It is definitely the best product made in awhile, but its build quality was not worth almost $500. Here's a list of the problems with the Warthog:

 

1) The O-ring in the stick tore causing a serious centering and stick force issue until I personally repaired it. This is a common and known issue and completely ruins the point of having the high levels of precision the stick offers.

 

2) The centering spring in the stick is too stiff. It reduces the precision necessary for things like close formation flying and high precision gunnery. I replaced mine with weaker springs to solve the issue.

 

3) The grease used to lubricate the two points where the plastic ball and joint connect inside the stick is inferior and breaks down over time. It will eventually result in noticeable levels of "stiction" that cause the same problems as #2--poor precision. I had to replace the grease with a much higher quality product to reduce this problem. It still isn't completely gone even after the "fix."

 

4) The throttle has a friction lock which is made of ABS plastic. This was a totally inferior material for the job and on a new stick it will wear out within about 3 months of normal use if the friction lock is stiffened significantly. My right throttle is now completely "limp" and barely has enough friction force to hold it in position. I have not found a competent solution to this problem.

 

5) The throttle needs two more axes. It has 3 that are usable for WWII flight sims (and two that are located on the "nub" for your MFDs in modern jets), but it really needs a couple more so you can map some mixture, zoom, or radiator controls to it. I end up just mapping those controls as button presses on the ridiculous amount of buttons on the throttle. It's not ideal and for $500 I really would've liked a couple more moveable axes.

 

Other than that, the stick is fantastic. Pros would be:

1) Incredible build quality in almost every way except for what is listed above. Lots of metal, real aviation-grade switches, and hefty weight.

 

2) High levels of precision and control when other factors (like the ones listed above) aren't affecting it.

 

3) A software package that isn't user friendly, but if you can program it can do just about anything you would ever possibly want.

 

 

So my recommendation is, if you don't mind the price and the fact that it will have issues, the Warthog is the best thing in production. Otherwise, you might look elsewhere to get more bang for your buck.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Crow

[yaky109]

Great review. Have you heard of the black Mamba? Very interested to see what you make of it! 

 

http://flightsimcontrols.com/store/joysticks/vkb-fat-black-mamba-for-non-eu/

 

(latest batch?) EU sticks released in 2 or 3 weeks.

[[JG2]Surf]

X52 Pro with the detent mod for me. Can't blame my crappy ACM on my stick...

[thx1138]

Thanks chaps, I appreciate all the input.

 

I've done some more reading and went back to my favourite unofficial IL-2 forum to check out opinions about the Warthog. Although the Thrustmaster is almost universally praised for its incredible feel and precision, almost all users have had technical problems with it, most of which required sending it back for a service (under warranty of course). No such problems are to be found with CH equipment - some of you have had your joysticks and throttles for half of my lifetime and they didn't break even once. One of the users on the aforementioned forum said that if you want something that you can easily customise to fit your needs you should go with Thrustmaster. On the other hand, CH offers straight-out-of-the-box functionality that I'm expecting from a premium product made by people who sell their stuff to governments and security agencies.

 

I'm probably going to buy a full set of CH equipment - a Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, Throttle Quadrant (will be very useful for setting trim, flaps, fuel mixture and propeller pitch) and Rudders. It's going to be a hefty bill, but I'd rather spend a pretty penny on quality stuff than a solid-looking stick that will keep me wondering if it will ever break. Sure, the Fighterstick isn't as pretty as the Warthog, but in the long run it's reliability that matters the most. Ask any long-time Lexus LS400 owner if he'd ever like to switch to a BMW 7-series of the same vintage - my guess is that the answer will be a universal 'no'. :-)

 

 

I finally sprung for the complete CH set (Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, Pro pedals) just because I had an old set of serial port CH pedals that have lasted through over 10 years of abuse. CH products just last and last...

 

And you get more than enough buttons to be completely HOTAS, can't wait to get them finally setup for F4 BMS. (might take a few years tho)

 

Allan

[III/JG11_Tiger]

The Warthog is quite special.

 

The spring of the stick is very strong and definately not everybody's taste. So i would recommend to try it out first. Also if you want to make use of all the switches of the throttle, you will most likely spend quite a bit of time to create scripts, to make the commands of BOS work (i'm guessing BOS input commands will be similar to ROF).

 

The Warthogs stick also has a problem with a rubber O-ring, which tends to rip quite easily (it did on mine). The O-ring is basically supposed to reduce wear/tear, but it's also making it less accurate imo. The overall construction is very solid though and atleast the throttle should last a lifetime.

 

I'm still very happy with the Warthog and would definately recommend it. Even though i'll probably test the FFB2 together with the Warthogs throttle for BOS. Maybe some day someone will create a FFB mod for the Warthog.

That would be great, all that nice cold metal, motors and cogs etc, that is male heaven.

[III/JG11_Tiger]

You know, you and sothers keep saying that, but Ill be damned if I can find where.

Yeah I hunted for a while and in Australia it would have cost nearly as much as a Warthog, so I bought the Warthog and some replacement grease and I love it, very accurate.

[dburne]

Yeah I hunted for a while and in Australia it would have cost nearly as much as a Warthog, so I bought the Warthog and some replacement grease and I love it, very accurate.

 

Hey Tiger,

Just curious, was replacing the grease difficult?

Mine seems to be working fine as far as I can tell, I have seen on other forums where some have done this, but looks pretty daunting to me - I am worried of messing something up in those innards.