8 Hurricanes found buried near Kyiv

[Monksilver]

From a BBC news article today -

 

The rusting remains of eight British Hurricane fighter planes dating back to World War Two have been found buried in a forest in Ukraine.

The aircraft were sent to the Soviet Union by Britain after Nazi Germany invaded the country in 1941.

They were part of a package of allied military support for the USSR, paid for by the United States under the so-called Lend-Lease scheme.

Similar legislation is being used by the US government today to send military aid to Ukraine as it seeks to expel Russian forces from its country.

Aviation experts say this is the first time the remains of so many Hurricanes have been found in Ukraine.

"It is very rare to find this aircraft in Ukraine," says Oleks Shtan, a former airline pilot who is leading the excavation. "It's very important for our aviation history because no Lend-Lease aircraft have been found here before."

 

"The Hurricane was a strong, easy to fly machine," Mr Shtan says. "It was stable as a gun platform and suitable for inexperienced pilots. A reliable aircraft."

In total, about 3,000 Hurricanes were sent to the USSR between 1941 and 1944 to support the Soviet war effort. Most were either destroyed in combat or dismantled later for parts.

But some Hurricanes were deliberately broken up and buried after the war so the Soviets did not have to pay back the United States. Under the Lend-Lease legislation, the USSR was required to pay for any donated military equipment that remained intact after hostilities ended.

This was the fate of the eight Hurricanes found buried in woodland south of Kyiv.

 

They had been stripped of their instruments, radios, machine guns and any useful scrap metal. They were then dragged by tractors from a nearby airfield, broken up and dropped without ceremony into a shallow ravine. It is thought they were then covered with earth by bulldozers.

The remains were discovered recently after an unexploded bomb dating from the war was found nearby. The rest of the ravine was checked using metal detectors and the Hurricanes were found.

The National Aviation Museum of Ukraine is now in the process of painstakingly excavating the site by hand. Staff there aim to identify as much of the aircraft as possible so they can be reassembled and put on display.

Valerii Romanenko, head of research at the museum, says the Hurricanes played an important part in Ukraine's history.

"The Hurricanes are a symbol of British assistance during the years of the Second World War.

 

After the German invasion, the USSR lost many warplanes and was in desperate need of fighter aircraft. Initially several RAF Hurricane squadrons were sent to the Arctic to help.

But soon the British pilots left and the aircraft were taken over by Soviet airmen. Records show that many disliked the Hurricane, considering it under-powered, under-armed and under-protected.

By the end of the war it was considered obsolete and was used mainly for air defence work. The eight Hurricanes found south of Kyiv were used to defend major transport hubs - especially railway stations and junctions.

 

[Trooper117]

5 minutes ago, Monksilver said:

soon the British pilots left and the aircraft were taken over by Soviet airmen. Records show that many disliked the Hurricane, considering it under-powered, under-armed and under-protected.

 

And yet, the Soviets had more than a dozen aces using the Hurricane, strange that eh?... 3,360 Hurricanes were sent to Russia, (they specifically asked for the Hurricane as well)... but as usual, Soviet doctrine at the time didn't like to admit that the West had helped them when they were on the back foot after the German invasion.

I'll certainly acknowledge that the Hurricane had passed it's best at that stage in the war, but many Russian pilots did well with it, and that's a fact.

[Lusekofte]

RAF pilots actually flew Hurricanes in combat for a while. Two casualties 

Muddy airstrip made it necessary for two crews to sit in the tail during taxiing to prevent tip over. Pilot forgot that and took off with two crew members on the tail. 
Facing 109 E with hurricanes was hard enough, fighting 109 F with inadequate training and strategy was close to impossible. 
Facing battle hardened Finnish pilots in equal planes was though. It is easy enough to blame the plane. 
Look at Africa, RAF had to face the same planes with Hurricanes and P 40 ‘s. With heavy losses too. Truth is. Allied airforces in Europe won because of numbers and very good trained tactical pilots, not because their planes was better

[JG27*PapaFly]

3 hours ago, Monksilver said:

But some Hurricanes were deliberately broken up and buried after the war so the Soviets did not have to pay back the United States. Under the Lend-Lease legislation, the USSR was required to pay for any donated military equipment that remained intact after hostilities ended.

This was the fate of the eight Hurricanes found buried in woodland south of Kyiv.

 

So basically Russia now has to pay the US government the 8 hidden Hurricanes. The planes would probably be a bargain, but the interest after so many years... ?

[Monksilver]

6 minutes ago, JG27*PapaFly said:

 

So basically Russia now has to pay the US government the 8 hidden Hurricanes. The planes would probably be a bargain, but the interest after so many years... ?

 

The article's comment about paying the US for the Hurricanes doesn't sound right. Why would the USSR have to pay the US for planes supplied by the UK?

[Trooper117]

They would be paying the UK, not America... Remember though that Lend Lease  was from the US and the UK, not just America.

[Jaws2002]

1 hour ago, JG27*PapaFly said:

 

So basically Russia now has to pay the US government the 8 hidden Hurricanes. The planes would probably be a bargain, but the interest after so many years... ?

So why should Russia pay for planes that are in Ukraine right now? The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore, remember?

4 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

And yet, the Soviets had more than a dozen aces using the Hurricane, strange that eh?... 3,360 Hurricanes were sent to Russia, (they specifically asked for the Hurricane as well)... but as usual, Soviet doctrine at the time didn't like to admit that the West had helped them when they were on the back foot after the German invasion.

I'll certainly acknowledge that the Hurricane had passed it's best at that stage in the war, but many Russian pilots did well with it, and that's a fact.

 The Finns were also not very impressed by the Hurricane, so it wasn't only the Russians. By that point in the war the Hurricane was obsolete, but they had to fly with what they had. The pilots did their best, with what they were given and some did become aces in it, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have dome just as good in other, more modern, aircraft.

 

The Hurricane is a BIG aircraft. I've seen it side by side, next to a Bf-109 E, sitting on the tarmac and the difference in size is shocking.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Jaws2002

[DBFlyguy]

 

 

[Trooper117]

I've already said it wasn't up to par at that time in the war... and it wasn't just the Finns and the Russians, but the British and Commonwealth pilots were still using it at that time as well.

You fight with what you have, and obviously, with better aircraft they may have fared better... but pilots still got on with it, got kills with it, and that was my point, they made it work for them regardless.

Plus, remember that Russian pilots were impressed by other aspects, as they found that they could for the first time communicate and co-ordinate with each other because of the radio equipment on each aircraft.

[Avimimus]

2 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

I've already said it wasn't up to par at that time in the war... and it wasn't just the Finns and the Russians, but the British and Commonwealth pilots were still using it at that time as well.

You fight with what you have, and obviously, with better aircraft they may have fared better... but pilots still got on with it, got kills with it, and that was my point, they made it work for them regardless.

Plus, remember that Russian pilots were impressed by other aspects, as they found that they could for the first time communicate and co-ordinate with each other because of the radio equipment on each aircraft.

 

I find these interviews are really interesting for things like that: Lend-Lease – Сайт о программе Ленд-Лиз

 

They were pretty obsolete by the Armistice though... after-all the first flight was in 1935. I find it hard to have much of any reaction that the Soviet Union would 'break' a few obsolete aircraft in 1945 in order to avoid having to pay for them. Admittedly, I might not lease the Soviet Union any new Hurricanes if that is typical behaviour, but in the context of the number broken during the war, and the Soviet Union not having existed for thirty years... I'm surprised it is even a topic.

 

The fact that there might be some original parts from eight Hurricanes is interesting though... and the amount of effort to repair them. I wonder if anything can be done with the Do-217 (we now have wreckage from at least three of them)?

[Trooper117]

14 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

the Soviet Union not having existed for thirty years... I'm surprised it is even a topic.

 

Well, the war has been over since 1945, and we still rabbit on about it... Regardless of what Lend Lease meant to the average Russian, without western aid their struggle would have been that much harder.

They called for assistance and we (the allies) sent it, plus a good many men died getting it to them, let's not forget that either.

[Monksilver]

55 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

I find it hard to have much of any reaction that the Soviet Union would 'break' a few obsolete aircraft in 1945 in order to avoid having to pay for them. Admittedly, I might not lease the Soviet Union any new Hurricanes if that is typical behaviour, but in the context of the number broken during the war, and the Soviet Union not having existed for thirty years... I'm surprised it is even a topic.

 

I think the article mentioned it simply to explain why they had been buried (and stripped). Normally when we hear of  buried plane it is one that that crashed into the ground as a result of being shot down in the war so the article was trying to make clear that isn't the case this time.

 

I don't think anyone is expecting the USSR successor states to put a cheque in the post.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Monksilver

[DD_Arthur]

59 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

They were pretty obsolete by the Armistice though... after-all the first flight was in 1935. I find it hard to have much of any reaction that the Soviet Union would 'break' a few obsolete aircraft in 1945 in order to avoid having to pay for them. Admittedly, I might not lease the Soviet Union any new Hurricanes if that is typical behaviour, 

Armistice? WW2 was ended by unconditional surrender.

 

The terms of Lend-Lease were structured to get it through the US congress. The UK adopted the same terms but in the end this is all moot.

The equipment was supplied on the understanding that it wasn’t going to be returned.

At the same time as the USSR was crushing Hurricanes, the Fleet Air Arm were pushing hundreds of US supplied aircraft off the side of our carriers and into the drink for the same reasons.

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Trooper117 said:

Well, the war has been over since 1945, and we still rabbit on about it... Regardless of what Lend Lease meant to the average Russian, without western aid their struggle

would have been that much harder.

They called for assistance and we (the allies) sent it, plus a good many men died getting it to them, let's not forget that either.

 

I did link to the lend-lease interviews... and the arctic convoys, other delivery methods - and their costs in lives is something I think is important to remember. I just think, the exact way eight Hurricanes were scrapped is a very small part of that story.

 

27 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

Armistice? WW2 was ended by unconditional surrender.

 

Interesting. Well, I looked it up - and it seems that both temporary and permanent laying down of arms can be described by the term. So one could probably describe any cessation of hostilities or surrender that way. 

[Art-J]

I seem to recall all Lend-Lease repayment matters between USA and USSR were settled and closed by 1973'ish (?). Granted, I don't know when Brits closed their part of the deal with USSR, but I doubt anyone still owes money to anybody.

 

Plus, as Arthur mentioned abowe, rampant dumping and scrapping of any L-L materiel not useful for civilian usage and post-war reconstruction of Europe and Asia was common amongst all Allied countries. US and GB didn't really want it anyway, as at that point it really was "surplus (with capital S) to requirements".  

[DD_Arthur]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Interesting. Well, I looked it up - and it seems that both temporary and permanent laying down of arms can be described by the term. So one could probably describe any cessation of hostilities or surrender that way. 

Oh boy….

[Trooper117]

13 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Oh boy….

 

Lol!... 

[von_Tom]

20 hours ago, Art-J said:

I seem to recall all Lend-Lease repayment matters between USA and USSR were settled and closed by 1973'ish (?).

 

USSR - USA payments ended (via Russia after the dissolution of the USSR) in 2006.

 

Britain - USA lend-lease payments also ended in 2006.

 

von Tom

Edited July 3, 2023 by von_Tom

[Mysticpuma]

I interviewed Eric Carter a few years back, he was the last surviving member of 81 Squadron who flew Hurricanes in Murmansk. Long interviews, but covering his ups and downs with the RAF and combat in Russia. 

 

Part 1:

Part 2:

Eric passes away in 2021 at the great age of 101 years. 

https://rafa.org.uk/blog/2021/08/12/eric-carter/

Cheers, Mysticpuma. 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

The Allies indeed signed and armistice with Karl Dönitz's government after a long 8-day lasting war... Curiously, the previous German government was at war with the Allies too, but didn't sign any armistice, it came to an end by means of the suicide and/or capitulation of its leaders...

[RossMarBow]

21 hours ago, von_Tom said:

 

USSR - USA payments ended (via Russia after the dissolution of the USSR) in 2006.

 

Britain - USA lend-lease payments also ended in 2006.

 

von Tom

weird never knew this 

coincidental GFC happened the year after?

[von_Tom]

23 hours ago, RossMarBow said:

coincidental GFC happened the year after?

 

Coincidence because the final payments weren't huge in international payments terms.

 

von Tom

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

Interesting article, thanks for sharing. Sad fate for the planes, but not very unusual for that time anywhere. 

[Charger_]

I recall reading that the USSR were offering the RAF pilots Rupples as a reward for kills. 

 

Some of the RAF were concerned that this would effect their amateur status!  

[spreckair]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:58 PM, LLv34_Flanker said:

Sad fate for the planes, but not very unusual for that time anywhere. 

I recall seeing a photo of dozens of shiny P-38 Lightnings being bulldozed into pits in the Philippines after the war ended.  Sigh.

[IckyATLAS]

The value of an item whatever it may be is usually related to the rarity of it.

The reason why it becomes rare it is because when it was plentiful it had little value and people when they did not needed it they would simply get rid of it.

With time things change and objects from the past having become rarer may also become valuable as they are witness to a bygone era. But this is not always true.

For planes unfortunately that meant, destroying them, bury them, dismantle them, sink them etc. Finally they became rare but very valuable for those that could connect to that bygone era, and were ready to spend a lot of money to keep them flying.  To the big majority of the young people of latest generation these planes mean nothing.  Even worse, for many young people I have heard that they consider in a period of climate change to run these WWII planes an ecological disaster, and should just stay in a museum at best. And let's not talk about noise restrictions to fly them. Times change and the perception of things change too. I was happy to have been in Reno to follow the races a few years ago and mainly the unlimited gold races. I am not sure how long that category will survive, I mean with the piston engine beasts of WWII. The number of contenders on that category was appallingly small, and many of the past star planes are grounded by a combination of financial reasons and technical hurdles to keep them flying and maybe also for the lack of younger pilots to fly them. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by IckyATLAS

[Rei-sen]

6 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

Even worse, for many young people I have heard that they consider in a period of climate change to run these WWII planes an ecological disaster, and should just stay in a museum at best.

I see enough young people (< 25yo) that are very enthusiastic about cars.

 

Also, a lot of young people play WT, so most likely they would enjoy seeing warbirds flying. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by LukeFF
Keep the politics out of the discussion.