Kurfurst Assistance?

[SeattleRex]

Before coming over and flying in IL-2, I flew a great deal in DCS, and when it came to warbirds, I flew/fly the Bf.109 K-4 almost exclusively.  I've put, I dunno ... 1,000 hours on the plane (no assists), have started cold in parking then taxied and taken off several hundred times, and I've gotten about as good as a virtual pilot can get at taxi-ing the plane around, taking off, landing, etc.  It certainly wasn't easy at first, the plane uses differential braking to steer, and the wheels are close together, so it's an unintuitive PITA at first, but you eventually get it with practice.  I long since have had the muscle memory to effortlessly make it go where I want it to go.

 

At least this is the case in DCS.

 

IL-2 is a different story.

 

Today, I tried to taxi several times, and I simply cannot do it.  It either goes straight ahead or ground loops.  Period. I don't understand what is going on.  I know the pedals are setup correctly, because when I maneuver them and look down, the animations are spot on.    Even though it doesn't do much for steering on the ground, the rudder works normally when in the air, and I set up the left and right toe brakes properly. That said, using the rudder (not wheel brakes) appears to lock one or the other wheels completely, resulting in alternating ground loops.   BTW, the tail wheel *is* unlocked, so that's not the problem.  It's not anything like what I learned, which is odd, because in the air the responses are very similar.   On the ground, however, it's completely uncontrollable.  FWIW, I have the TM Pendulum Pedals, which I'm sure the starving children in Africa hate me for ("I haven't eaten in 4 weeks and you spent $500 on what??!"), but they're generally excellent pedals.

 

Two other things I haven't been able to figure out in the IL-2 109:

 

#1 Elevator trim.  There's a wheel on the left next to the flap wheel that controls elevator trim.  Despite there being a control for it in the settings, nothing I map it to seems to work.

#2 Radiator opening.  Again, despite there being a control for it in the settings, I do not seem to be able to manually open the radiator inlets.

 

Does anyone have any insight or advice on how to deal with these issues?  IL-2 is really cool, I just realized the skills built in DCS don't seem to perfectly carry over.  They mostly do, but there are some outliers.

Edited June 18, 2023 by SeattleRex

[Barnacles]

7 minutes ago, SeattleRex said:

Before coming over and flying in IL-2, I flew a great deal in DCS, and when it came to warbirds, I flew/fly the Bf.109 K-4 almost exclusively.  I've put, I dunno ... 1,000 hours on the plane (no assists), have started cold in parking then taxied and taken off several hundred times, and I've gotten about as good as a virtual pilot can get at taxi-ing the plane around, taking off, landing, etc.  It certainly wasn't easy at first, the plane uses differential braking to steer, and the wheels are close together, so it's an unintuitive PITA at first, but you eventually get it with practice.  I long since have had the muscle memory to effortlessly make it go where I want it to go.

 

At least this is the case in DCS.

 

IL-2 is a different story.

 

Today, I tried to taxi several times, and I simply cannot do it.  It either goes straight ahead or ground loops.  Period. I don't understand what is going on.  I know the pedals are setup correctly, because when I maneuver them and look down, the animations are spot on.    Even though it doesn't do much for steering on the ground, the rudder works normally when in the air, and I set up the left and right toe brakes properly. That said, using the rudder (not wheel brakes) appears to lock one or the other wheels completely, resulting in alternating ground loops.   BTW, the tail wheel *is* unlocked, so that's not the problem.  It's not anything like what I learned, which is odd, because in the air the responses are very similar.   On the ground, however, it's completely uncontrollable.  FWIW, I have the TM Pendulum Pedals, which I'm sure the starving children in Africa hate me for ("I haven't eaten in 4 weeks and you spent $500 on what??!"), but they're generally excellent pedals.

 

Two other things I haven't been able to figure out in the IL-2 109:

 

#1 Elevator trim.  There's a wheel on the left next to the flap wheel that controls elevator trim.  Despite there being a control for it in the settings, nothing I map it to seems to work.

#2 Radiator opening.  Again, despite there being a control for it in the settings, I do not seem to be able to manually open the radiator inlets.

 

Does anyone have any insight or advice on how to deal with these issues?  IL-2 is really cool, I just realized the skills built in DCS don't seem to perfectly carry over.  They mostly do, but there are some outliers.

In il2 there are several controls for the different types of trim. For aircraft with conventional trim tabs, ac with stabilisers on an axis, and ac with stabilisers on a push button (fw190) 

 

You need to find the "stabiliser axis" control, and bind that to an axis or two buttons to increase and decrease the control. 

 

There is also a control to toggle manual radiators, and like trim, there are several controls for aircraft with radiator cooling flaps on axes, buttons, notched levers etc. 

 

To taxi, there are many ways to skin a cat. But try this. 

 

Select manual prop. pitch, set prop pitch to 12:00, unlock tail wheel, hold brakes, increase rpm to 1700 rpm, gradually release brakes to crawl forward, keep speed at walking pace by increasing the brakes. Then lock the tail wheel before takeoff roll. 

[SeattleRex]

12 minutes ago, Barnacles said:

Select manual prop. pitch, set prop pitch to 12:00, unlock tail wheel, hold brakes, increase rpm to 1700 rpm, gradually release brakes to crawl forward, keep speed at walking pace by increasing the brakes. Then lock the tail wheel before takeoff roll. 

 

Thank you ... how do you actually taxi, though?  For instance, leaving your parking space and following the taxiway to the active?  What do you do to employ a tight turn?

 

I can get it in the air if  I start on the runway.  My problem is getting to the runway.  I can't seem to, for instance, leave my space and take a snap left to enter the taxiway.

Edited June 18, 2023 by SeattleRex

[Barnacles]

2 minutes ago, SeattleRex said:

 

Thank you ... how do you actually taxi, though?  For instance, leaving your parking space and following the taxiway to the active?  What do you do to employ a tight turn?

 

I can get it in the air if  I start on the runway.  My problem is getting to the runway.  I can't seem to, for instance, leave my space and take a snap left to enter the taxiway.

If you follow what I said, you should be creeping forward. Once you reach a point at which you need to turn, you apply the 'inside' brake, release the 'outside' wheel brake, and apply full rudder. The ac should then rotate gradually, if you were controlling the speed at a walking pace. Once you're pointing in the right direction apply both brakes and opposite rudder. This will steady you and may even stop you, but then you can release the brakes again and get rolling. 

There are many simpler ways to taxi that'll work with practice, but this method allows you to be consistent and is nice and slow. 

[Trooper117]

We have had real pilots with many hours of controlling real powerful tail draggers try to taxi in the game, the conclusion being that taxi-ing is pretty much naffed compared to reality. It's a subject that has come up many times... the white knights that defend the game to the hilt will tell you it's fine, but it's not.

There are ways that you will find eventually that will work for you, but it will be a work around, a way of 'gaming the game' to get it to do what you want it to do.

  

[LukeFF]

2 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

the white knights that defend the game to the hilt will tell you it's fine, but it's not.

 

Knock it off with the comments like that, okay? That was entirely unnecessary. 

[Trooper117]

I'm just telling the truth Luke... there are people in here that are like that.

[LukeFF]

2 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

I'm just telling the truth Luke... there are people in here that are like that.

 

The name-calling was and is unnecessary, regardless of what you were trying to tell him. 

 

Now, back to the original subject.

[Guest]

Lock the tail-wheel, night and day difference.

[Art-J]

@SeattleRex Ground handling of all taildraggers in Il-2 is just different compared to DCS and thus any habits from the latter don't carry over to the former, no matter which plane you choose. Rudders here are more effective while wheel brakes are much less effective (opposite of DCS). As mentioned above, just taxi MUCH slower and "counter-brake" earlier compared to DCS K-4 to avoid ground loop, even with prop in auto mode. That's about it. Once you get used to it, you won't have problems with switching between both platforms.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Art-J

[cardboard_killer]

 

and

 

 

[Qcumber]

5 hours ago, SeattleRex said:

IL-2 is a different story

I have the opposite problem. I learned to fly the 109 in IL-2 and am now finding it difficult to taxi in DCS!!

[Hook_Echo]

I just started flying the K4 recently. I find it easy to land and taxi vs the Spitfire.

 

Pull back on the stick to lock the tail wheel. That will keep you going straight-ish. If you need to make a sharp turn let the stick go neutral to unlock the wheel.

 

Edit: bind a button to lock/unlock tailwheel.

 

If you have an extra axis lever, bind the trim wheel to that. I could not fly 109s worth a darn until I started using big stabilizer corrections. Trim it nose heavy when flying straight and when you need to turn fight trim it to 0 on the dial next to the wheel or 50 I think in technochat. You will have to push forward significantly to stay level but it really helps in a turn.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Hook_Echo

[migmadmarine]

Part of the issue for you may be that brakes are a lot weaker in Il-2, so if you're using them off of your muscle memory from DCS you're probably not stepping hard enough on them. Honestly taxiing in this sim I find myself going pretty much full on or full off for the toe brakes. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Ground handling is one of the weakest things in the sim.

[cardboard_killer]

However, even when I suck at everything else, I feel great satisfaction when I can taxi, take off and land without breaking the crate.

[FuriousMeow]

The 109s, and to an extent the 190s, are not great at taxiing unless in manual prop management. Seems the mechanical ECU type system doesn't put much air across the rudder at lower throttle settings because the prop isn't set for it, and the torque/gyro of the engine are stronger than any air the rudder can move at those throttle settings and speeds. Also the brakes are pretty weak, I think they were stronger early on but reduced for some reason.

 

The other aircraft taxi fairly well, don't really have much problem in others.

[Yogiflight]

On 6/18/2023 at 8:10 PM, Hook_Echo said:

Pull back on the stick to lock the tail wheel. That will keep you going straight-ish. If you need to make a sharp turn let the stick go neutral to unlock the wheel.

This is what you have to do in the FW 190s. The Bf 109s have a lever at the left cockpit side to lock/unlock the tailwheel. You have to assign a button/key for locking/unlocking tailwheel in the 109s.

[Qcumber]

I keep the tail wheel locked for taxiing. I only unlock it to turn 180 degrees. I'm not sure if this is historically correct, but it works. 

On 6/18/2023 at 7:42 PM, migmadmarine said:

Part of the issue for you may be that brakes are a lot weaker in Il-2, so if you're using them off of your muscle memory from DCS you're probably not stepping hard enough on them

I've been playing with the curves on DCS to try to match them to IL-2. No success yet but I'll keep trying. 

[SeattleRex]

On 6/18/2023 at 6:47 AM, Qcumber said:

I have the opposite problem. I learned to fly the 109 in IL-2 and am now finding it difficult to taxi in DCS!!

 

Yeah, I could see that being the case.  In DCS you have to "dance" on the toe brakes to keep it on the center line  during takeoff while holding right aileron, back right on roll, and center right at speed, and during taxi-ing, it does have a tendency to ground-loop if you don't compensate for the turn quickly.  Remember, in DCS, the rudder does nothing for taxi-ing at slow speed, it's 100% toe brakes, which takes some getting used to.

 

The ironic thing is that it's much easier for me to take-off in IL-2, I just have to compensate for the left torque-pull and then I'm up.  If I start on the runway, I'm golden ... no problem getting it off the runway.  It's just the< 20mph stuff. I joined a MP server last weekend that started me at parking, and that's where it went south for me.  Getting from parking to the runway.

 

Once I'm off the ground, it's awesome.  I love flying the plane in IL-2, they've done a fantastic job with the flight modeling, it looks beautiful, and it's great fun. I'm going to following the the video this evening and see if I can't get it worked out.  

 

Thanks very much for everyone's help!  Those videos are awesome.

On 6/19/2023 at 12:02 PM, Yogiflight said:

This is what you have to do in the FW 190s. The Bf 109s have a lever at the left cockpit side to lock/unlock the tailwheel. You have to assign a button/key for locking/unlocking tailwheel in the 109s.

 

? Yeah, I'm on top of that one.  I'm used to locking and unlocking the tailwheel.  I make sure it's unlocked before trying to swing around a corner.

Edited June 21, 2023 by SeattleRex

[the_emperor]

On 6/19/2023 at 9:11 PM, Qcumber said:

I keep the tail wheel locked for taxiing. I only unlock it to turn 180 degrees. I'm not sure if this is historically correct, but it works.

Loosely translated from the manual:

“For taxing on sharp turn unlock tailwheel

Apply high engine power for short time and roll straight then initiate turn by brake and throttle back”

 

in game this is a guaranteed spin as taxiing on the ground is not the strength of this games as our planes do not feel like 3+ tons crafts but more like WW1 kites with WW2 engines strapped on.

The more satisfying it is to execute a good roll to the runway and make a clean take off.

 

 

[kestrel79]

Try turning on manual prop pitch, dumping it to 0% (noon on the clock), and then unlocking the tail wheel and being very quick on the rudder. It's hard.

 

Ironically I am better in IL2 than DCS in taxing and taking off.

[SeattleRex]

I'm finally getting it.  The K-4 in IL-2 appears to use the RUDDER and not the toe brakes. 

[SeattleRex]

On 6/18/2023 at 1:25 AM, Barnacles said:

 

 

You need to find the "stabiliser axis" control, and bind that to an axis or two buttons to increase and decrease the control. 

 

 

 

Woo-hoo, it worked, thank you!

[FlyinCoffin]

Quote

The ironic thing is that it's much easier for me to take-off in IL-2, I just have to compensate for the left torque-pull and then I'm up.  If I start on the runway, I'm golden ... no problem getting it off the runway.  It's just the< 20mph stuff....

went the same in DCS with the Mustang taking off was quite difficult.

Edited June 22, 2023 by FlyinCoffin

[JG5_Schuck]

From personal experience, apply enough throttle to get the plane moving, then cut the throttle and allow it to roll,
its much more controllable.
The just gently on and off the throttle to keep it rolling. Trick is don't apply to much to quickly..
The rudder has little effect at low RPM, so i just use the brakes only....

[BlitzPig_Bill_Kelso]

On 6/18/2023 at 3:12 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

Ground handling is one of the weakest things in the sim.

Someone once whispered to me that ground handling was one of the ways the dev's get back at us. I immediately shouted to them "UNTRUE". They also suggested that maybe possibly the dev's will alter GH every 2-3 updates just to throw us off. 

Sounds like crazy talk to me.