What happened to all the players?

[BraveSirRobin]

That’s not how I see it, and since there really isn’t anything that can be done about it other than having an escort, I guess you’ll just have to live with it.

[Zooropa_Fly]

I'm not sure where this using the target as bait notion comes from ?

 

The target is there whether or not anyone is defending it, and the enemy is going to come and try to destroy it.

 

A target usually takes a lot more than one bombing run to destroy, therefore if I'm alerted by flak or the first explosions there's a decent chance I get down and stop them before too much damage is done. 

If I'm 10 miles out and don't see them, which I won't - they'll be able to do maximum damage.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

When the defenders bomb the target you've failed your mission, killing him afterwards is a consolation prize

Again you’re assuming the attacker gets through. That’s not always the case. If you want to look at it in reality an enemy plane was still destroyed. In the game servers can have limits on planes too. 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

2 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

That’s not how I see it, and since there really isn’t anything that can be done about it other than having an escort, 

The game changes all the time, nothings set in stone.

2 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 I guess you’ll just have to live with it.

Not really, I'm just on strike from ground attack until a more interesting gameplay loop develops, hence the original topic of this thread "what happened to all the players".

1 hour ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

I'm not sure where this using the target as bait notion comes from ?

 

The target is there whether or not anyone is defending it, and the enemy is going to come and try to destroy it.

 

A target usually takes a lot more than one bombing run to destroy, therefore if I'm alerted by flak or the first explosions there's a decent chance I get down and stop them before too much damage is done. 

If I'm 10 miles out and don't see them, which I won't - they'll be able to do maximum damage.

It's bait because they just use the AA and the explosions to do their spotting for them, just like you described instead of intercepting. 

 

If he's intending to loiter and multipass there is a warning on most servers when he's nearing the objective. It can be hard to get him before he's gotten no bombs off when you're out patrolling and miss him, but it shouldn't be difficult to catch a plane slowed down with bombs before he's gotten his whole load off if you're out patrolling. Either way he's getting some bombs off whether you target camped, or rushed from patrolling to catch a loiterer, and averaged over many sorties your intercepts and rushes to catch loiterers will give better results than target camping, and target camping also has the disadvantage of being basically useless for the very common one pass haul ass flights. Target campings main benefit is still just to use the ground targets as bait for the AA to do your spotting for you.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Again you’re assuming the attacker gets through. That’s not always the case. If you want to look at it in reality an enemy plane was still destroyed. In the game servers can have limits on planes too. 

You've said you cant spot them on there way to the target, he is getting through. We're just going in circles, you must be bored of this too, let's just agree to disagree.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 hour ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

The game changes all the time, nothings set in stone..

Can you think of any possible game functionality change that would cause fighter pilots to fly 10k away from a known magnet for enemy aircraft instead of staying near that magnet and likely getting more kills?

 

Because I can tell you, without any fear of being contradicted, that telling them that the game would be better if they just gave you more time to blow up targets is not going to get the results you want.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

You've said you cant spot them on there way to the target, he is getting through. We're just going in circles, you must be bored of this too, let's just agree to disagree.

What I meant was you’re assuming that a defender patrolling (camping) the objective will never get the attacker before he destroys the target. That’s not a certainty.  

1 hour ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

It's bait because they just use the AA and the explosions to do their spotting for them, just like you described instead of intercepting. 

The probability of finding an attacker near the objective is vastly higher than finding them out on the rest of the huge map. Flak or not. It’s hilarious you’re trying to argue for players to engage in the most futile activity in this game which is hunting around a huge map for tiny aircraft ?

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

instead of staying near that magnet and likely getting more kills?

That quote perfectly shows the mentality of target campers. I'm 100% aware that currently the stats don't give you any reason not to target camp. If you read the thread you'd see we've been discussing changing the stats to reflect successful defense of the targets, over just scoring as many kills as possible any way possible, and that would encourage fighters to adopt interception tactics. Read the rest of the thread if you'd like to know more.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

What I meant was you’re assuming that a defender patrolling (camping) the objective will never get the attacker before he destroys the target. That’s not a certainty.  

The probability of finding an attacker near the objective is vastly higher than finding them out on the rest of the huge map. Flak or not. It’s hilarious you’re trying to argue for players to engage in the most futile activity in this game which is hunting around a huge map for tiny aircraft ?

If you can't spot them out in the open, how are you spotting them before the AA is going off? If you can spot them before the AA is going off, then maybe hunting them away from the target isn't so futile after all.  Believe in yourself.

[BraveSirRobin]

4 minutes ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

That quote perfectly shows the mentality of target campers. I'm 100% aware that currently the stats don't give you any reason not to target camp. If you read the thread you'd see we've been discussing changing the stats to reflect successful defense of the targets, over just scoring as many kills as possible any way possible, and that would encourage fighters to adopt interception tactics. Read the rest of the thread if you'd like to know more.

I know EXACTLY what the thread is about.  Tell me how you’d change the stats to get pilots to abandon the targets that the enemy is trying to blow up.

 

 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

CountZero described it better than me here:

 

[BraveSirRobin]

2 minutes ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

CountZero described it better than me here:

 

No , he really doesn’t.  I was happy to escort bombers into enemy territory.  They made good bait.  But seeing some dumbass that I was escorting make multiple runs on a target and attract every enemy fighter in the area when he only had 2 escorts made him an excellent candidate for being abandoned.  I was happy to escort people, but it wasn’t going to be a suicide mission, as far as I was concerned.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

No , he really doesn’t.  I was happy to escort bombers into enemy territory.  They made good bait.  But seeing some dumbass that I was escorting make multiple runs on a target and attract every enemy fighter in the area when he only had 2 escorts made him an excellent candidate for being abandoned.  I was happy to escort people, but it wasn’t going to be a suicide mission, as far as I was concerned.

Read it more carefully, the behavior you're describing is the exact behavior he's talking about. Bombers are friends not bait. I'm obviously living rent free in your head at this point, but you're boring me, and don't seem very teachable. I'm moving on, I hope you do too.

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Read it more carefully, the behavior you're describing is the exact behavior he's talking about. Bombers are friends not bait. I'm obviously living rent free in your head at this point, but you're boring me, and don't seem very teachable. I'm moving on, I hope you do too.

 I got bad news for you.  As far as fighter pilots in a video game are concerned, you’re bait.  It’s not a real war.  You’re not comrades that we’re going to defend to the death.  Because no one dies.  We’re having fun.  You’re bait.  And if you’re particularly stupid bait, we’re going to abandon you before we “die”.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Again already been discussed, and laid out beautifully in Count's post. Have a good one.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Instead of going in all alone, maybe you should find some wingmen…or in your case, some Chums.

 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

The gameplay loop is the same with or without wingmen. Just I obviously have a better chance of survival with wingmen. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

If you can't spot them out in the open, how are you spotting them before the AA is going off? If you can spot them before the AA is going off, then maybe hunting them away from the target isn't so futile after all. 

It’s not possible to spot aircraft which aren’t there. Try watching a replay of your flight and realize the only other plane you might have seen was 7 miles away behind the clouds. Most of the game is literally empty space but your chances are better near the objectives. Why go anywhere else?
You wonder why the player count online is so low? Most people probably don’t consider an empty game (and that’s the case even with +/- 50 players) to be worth their time. A point system which encourages boring behavior won’t help this. 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

We'll agree to disagree.

[Guest deleted@83466]

 

1 hour ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

The gameplay loop is the same with or without wingmen. Just I obviously have a better chance of survival with wingmen. 

Wingmen need not necessarily fly the same aircraft as you.  They can fly fighter cover.  They’ll still use you as bait, but if your friends can’t use you as bait, who can?

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by SeaSerpent

[ZachariasX]

5 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Bombers are friends not bait.

Doolittle disagreed:

 

In January 1944, the new commander of Eighth Air Force, Maj. Gen. James H. Doolittle, was visiting his subordinate commander, Maj. Gen. William A. Kepner, at VIII Fighter Command, when he noticed a slogan on the wall. It read: “The first duty of Eighth Air Force fighters is to bring the bombers back alive.” Kepner said the sign was there when he got there. Doolittle told him to take it down, that it was wrong.

A new sign went up: “The first duty of Eighth Air Force fighters is to destroy German fighters.”

This was considerably more than a moment of fighter pilot bravado. It marked a key change in strategy in the air war in Europe.

“As far as I’m concerned, this was the most important and far-reaching military decision I made during the war.” Doolittle said. “It was also the most controversial.”

 

(From here.)

[Otto_bann]

On 6/3/2023 at 5:58 PM, SharpeXB said:

... If anything the dynamic war campaign servers like Combat Box reward players for doing ground attack since it has some lasting effect in the game...

 

Yep, but in the facts, take a bomber or a jabo turns at suicide the most part of time now...

How many level bombers do you have seen at your last flights on Cbox...? If it's zero or so few, what is the main reasons for you?

Personal statistics deserve their rightful place : in the garbage can.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Interesting read. However they were using a much gentler version of the word bait than the IL2 boys use. The real bombers were used to draw the luftwaffe into taking off and coming out to play. In IL2 the enemies are always out to play unless its during low pop hours. In IL2 ground attackers are often used as sacrificial bait, where hes just there to be murdered by an enemy so the "defender" can swoop in and score an easy kill on the enemy. Its good to note that they also switched to running sweeps to intercept the luftwaffe, and moved away from target camping the bombers like so famously failed for Goering in the  battle of Britain.

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Doolittle disagreed:

 

In January 1944, the new commander of Eighth Air Force, Maj. Gen. James H. Doolittle, was visiting his subordinate commander, Maj. Gen. William A. Kepner, at VIII Fighter Command, when he noticed a slogan on the wall. It read: “The first duty of Eighth Air Force fighters is to bring the bombers back alive.” Kepner said the sign was there when he got there. Doolittle told him to take it down, that it was wrong.

A new sign went up: “The first duty of Eighth Air Force fighters is to destroy German fighters.”

This was considerably more than a moment of fighter pilot bravado. It marked a key change in strategy in the air war in Europe.

“As far as I’m concerned, this was the most important and far-reaching military decision I made during the war.” Doolittle said. “It was also the most controversial.”

 

(From here.)

Yeah a big purpose of the bombing raids over Germany was to bring the Luftwaffe fighters into action where they could be destroyed and keep them away from Normandy. In the BoB Galland didn’t want his fighters to be shackled to the bombers but again wanted to just free hunt ie using the bombers as bait. 

1 hour ago, Otto_bann said:

 

Yep, but in the facts, take a bomber or a jabo turns at suicide the most part of time now...

How many level bombers do you have seen at your last flights on Cbox...? If it's zero or so few, what is the main reasons for you?

Personal statistics deserve their rightful place : in the garbage can.

I see level bombers there enough. And again the solution there is fighter cover. What do you think would happen to a lone unescorted bomber in WWII?

 

Stats have a role in adding appeal to mp. Most people want to see a score or keep a log of their sorties etc. just the same way that this feature in the SP career is appealing. Changing or removing stats wouldn’t affect the normal behavior of players going for the easiest kills. Especially when the alternative is futile boredom. Stats also give the player a reason to land and finish the mission, otherwise they could just repeatedly air-quit to fly missions faster and destroy more targets which seems a bit ridiculous. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@83466]

The bomber/attack pilots (at least in this thread) are annoyed that they are treated as a decoy, or as easy pickings to pad someone’s killstreak stats, but they won’t do anything different.  They want a safe zone around the target to be able to make 15 passes, alone, in a combat sim.  And if they could just hobble those campers (alternatively known as Combat Air Patrol) in the stats, the numbers will improve…Sorry for the heavy use of italics, but it’s the easiest way to point out how ridiculous I see some of these points of view.  

[SharpeXB]

Considering that this is how it played out in the real war, I don’t see why you’d expect it to be different in the sim. Bomber and attack missions were one way tickets in many battles if they weren’t escorted. But they would almost always get through only to be shot down afterwards. I keep thinking of Midway and the naval battles as an example because of the lack of being able to see and intercept attackers beforehand and the presence of a standing CAP. So yeah most torpedo and dive bombers did make their attacks and in many cases scored battle winning hits on the ships, but nearly all were shot down by those darned target campers!

[Otto_bann]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

... I see level bombers there enough. And again the solution there is fighter cover. What do you think would happen to a lone unescorted bomber in WWII?...

 

Lol! Can you say also fighters did cover the high bombers you seen? It's a joke : fighter players don't care about bombers, except like targets. Heavy bombers are slow and make long navigations and fighters prefer fight quicly and more time at lower altitude (more fights). How many time I asked for cover my 88 and I never had a response, except "no, we loose our time to cover" or something

What is ridiculous, is to compare so few bombers in our simulator when hundreds (and sometime thousands) strongly covered in IRL missions. You're dreaming if you believe that what did happen IRL is like in our simulator : check on internet the numbers in raids (bombers and cover)!

 

In our simulator, especialy with the actual balistics (devastating for fighters and ridiculous for gunners... who are unskilled), it's easy job for kids fighters and it's why we see only too rare level bombers (less jabos too) and so to much fighters now.

 

Personnal stats are the cancer of this game in ground attack dedicated servers : too much guys are flying only as fighter, when you can only win the missions by ground targets crush : you can shot down 200 planes and lose the map if friends didn't make the job at ground and win the map with zero aerial kill!

 

Many players have leave this game for the same reasons, or play only in coops now.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Otto_bann

[BraveSirRobin]

“MANY PEOPLE ARE LEAVING THE GAME BECAUSE OF THE THING I WANT CHANGED’ is my favorite combat flight sim meme.

[DD_Arthur]

2 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

“MANY PEOPLE ARE LEAVING THE GAME BECAUSE OF THE THING I WANT CHANGED’ is my favorite combat flight sim meme.

Lol. 

[Otto_bann]

We was often 800 to play each evening at IL-2 1946 time. Look now... Go ahead and above all, don't change anything!

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Otto_bann

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

The bomber/attack pilots (at least in this thread) are annoyed that they are treated as a decoy, or as easy pickings to pad someone’s killstreak stats, but they won’t do anything different.  They want a safe zone around the target to be able to make 15 passes, alone, in a combat sim.  And if they could just hobble those campers (alternatively known as Combat Air Patrol) in the stats, the numbers will improve…Sorry for the heavy use of italics, but it’s the easiest way to point out how ridiculous I see some of these points of view.  

I want fighter sweeps over target camping. If someone's multipassing they are pushing their luck, and if they get caught that's fair. For the record I dont fly level bombers, I fly fighter-bombers/attackers, and will only loiter when I'm feeling lucky, but if I'm loitering and get caught, that's fair. 

[BraveSirRobin]

8 minutes ago, Otto_bann said:

We was often 800 to play each evening at IL-2 1946 time. Look now... Go ahead and above all, don't change anything!

 

So go back to playing IL2/46.

[Otto_bann]

3 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

So go back to playing IL2/46.

Soon actual IL-2 will be at same state... You bet?

Edited June 5, 2023 by Otto_bann

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, Otto_bann said:

Soon IL-2 GB will be at same state... You bet?

Unless we change the thing you want changed, amirite?

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Many changes are warranted, theres no one single magic fix, and they are coming with the new project.

[LukeFF]

Guys, stay on topic, please. If you want to complain about a flight model or the damage modeling, post it in the correct forum and in the correct format.

[SharpeXB]

35 minutes ago, Otto_bann said:

 

Lol! Can you say also fighters did cover the high bombers you seen? It's a joke : fighter players don't care about bombers, except like targets. Heavy bombers are slow and make long navigations and fighters prefer fight quicly and more time at lower altitude (more fights). How many time I asked for cover my 88 and I never had a response, except "no, we loose our time to cover" or something

What is ridiculous, is to compare so few bombers in our simulator when hundreds (and sometime thousands) strongly covered in IRL missions. You're dreaming if you believe that what did happen IRL is like in our simulator : check on internet the numbers in raids (bombers and cover)!

 

In our simulator, especialy with the actual balistics (devastating for fighters and ridiculous for gunners... who are unskilled), it's easy job for kids fighters and it's why we see only too rare level bombers (less jabos too) and so to much fighters now.

 

Personnal stats are the cancer of this game in ground attack dedicated servers : too much guys are flying only as fighter, when you can only win the missions by ground targets crush : you can shot down 200 planes and lose the map if friends didn't make the job at ground and win the map with zero aerial kill!

 

Many players have leave this game for the same reasons, or play only in coops now.

You aren’t going to find a solution to this in PvP MP. If you want to fly bomber missions which aren’t suicide play SP or co-op. Or just accept that your flights are suicide missions and have fun. That’s actually more exciting than futile patrolling of empty skies. I do it occasionally myself. 

34 minutes ago, Otto_bann said:

We was often 800 to play each evening at IL-2 1946 time.

And I’m sure they were all target camping too. So what’s your point?

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Were going in circles again. Some people here think its futile to do anything other than target camp, and others dont. No one is changing their mind here. We agree to disagree and we can all move on to more important things in our lives. 

[Otto_bann]

Sure I and we can continue to do like this until the end.

I just constat that on servers dedicated at ground attack, 90% of planes and probably more are fighters and that's make leave so many players. It's not a good thing and it's a real shame to lose so many people like this IMO.

This sim has a great potential which is wasted by how players themseves handle it, and they can't see it.

Have a good day

[BraveSirRobin]

Yes, the shooting down of people trying to blow up targets is totes ruining the game.  Hopefully some day we will live in a world where you can blow stuff up without being rudely interrupted.

[SharpeXB]

Just make a co-op server with player controlled ground attack and a few AI escorts and adversaries. Problem solved. 

15 minutes ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Were going in circles again.

You’re the only one that seems confused. The rest of us understand the reality of playing an online game like this. The other players are going to shoot you in the easiest way possible for them. And nobody likes boredom of flying around an empty game when there’s action to be had at the objectives. You’ll never find a solution to that in PvP. 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

I understand why under the current status quo people target camp. My point is to change the status quo to promote something else. I know theres no reason for you not to target camp right now if all you want is kills.