Why is the Me-410 rear gunner impact shock so strong?

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

The Me410 gunner is equipped with 13mm, which is basically German .50 cal.  When the gunner does hit my plane is causes a very strong shaking effect - even vs. the very heavy P-47.  This effect can almost knock my plane off balance.

Intentionally getting hit by Pe-2.87 12.7mm (Russian .50 cal) has no such shock effect.  Neither does getting hit with a high volume of USA .50 cal from any American plane.  I would like to know why.  The bullets of each gun are almost an identical size, plus/minus a few tenths of a millimeter.  The best I can guess is that it comes down to some high-quality Bavarian beer muscles.  

 

Tested in QMB with P-51 and 47 vs. 410 and various models of Bf109 vs. Pe-2.87 with blister turret, P-51 and P-47.

[RossMarBow]

The 410 gunner is shooting CANNONS at you
Nothing close to a 50cal AP only round

 

The shaking is most likely caused by the HE mine shell exploding 

Edited May 16, 2023 by RossMarBow

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Messerschmitt Me 410 Hornisse - Wikipedia   MG 131 machine gun - Wikipedia

 I guess Wiki fake newsed me again.   Says the rear facing armament is MACHINE GUNS not cannons.

 

Besides, .50 cal is SUPPOSED to be API but, we all know how that story goes by now...

Edited May 16, 2023 by Mobile_BBQ

[JG27_Steini]

20 minutes ago, RossMarBow said:

The 410 gunner is shooting CANNONS at you
Nothing close to a 50cal AP only round

 

The shaking is most likely caused by the HE mine shell exploding 

 

He said rear gunner, not front armament. Rear gunner had heavy machine gun.

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by JG27_Steini

[Art-J]

Ross has a habit of posting short messages which sometimes seem to be out of context or not make much sense so this time by giving benefit of doubt I'd suspect he meant explosive rounds for that 13 mm machine gun. I don't know what belting the 410 uses for its gunner, though, never flown the plane.

[MAJ_stug41]

8 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

He said rear gunner, not front armament. Rear gunner had heavy machine gun.

 

The mg131 fires explosive rounds.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

5 hours ago, stug41 said:

The mg131 fires explosive rounds.

 

The UB 12.7 fires mixed AP and HE rounds.  Why no impact shock of any sort when the HE hits?   Granted, the Russian explosive compound was not as much inside the bullet and not as strong but, it's still a HE round.

[2./SG2_assadoc]

4 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

The UB 12.7 fires mixed AP and HE rounds.  Why no impact shock of any sort when the HE hits?   Granted, the Russian explosive compound was not as much inside the bullet and not as strong but, it's still a HE round.

In game UB has 1/3 of HE in belt.

MG 131 has 2/3.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

1 hour ago, =MAI=_assadoc said:

In game UB has 1/3 of HE in belt.

MG 131 has 2/3.

 

Only take 1 hit to cause the effect.  What does the belt distribution matter?

[FuriousMeow]

The Pe2 rear gunner does have that shake effect if hit. It just isn't every round. The Me410 has 2 guns shooting vs 1 gun of the Pe2, also double the amount of explosive rounds so its going to have more shakey shake compared to the Pe2's gun. They both do it though.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

2 hours ago, FuriousMeow said:

The Pe2 rear gunner does have that shake effect if hit. It just isn't every round. The Me410 has 2 guns shooting vs 1 gun of the Pe2, also double the amount of explosive rounds so its going to have more shakey shake compared to the Pe2's gun. They both do it though.

 

That's odd, I parked a few different 109 models if front of the Pe-2.87 gunner and let him hit me.  I noticed no such effect.

[Dragon1-1]

German shells have a much higher explosive loading than Allied rounds of the same size. This is the "mine shell" technology that was largely unique to them.

[2./SG2_assadoc]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

German shells have a much higher explosive loading than Allied rounds of the same size. This is the "mine shell" technology that was largely unique to them.

13 mm is not a mine shell

[354thFG_Rails]

The UB has a higher explosive content in its HE round than the 131. Granted it’s basically 1g vs 2g. The 131 should not be shaking planes. 
 
I’m still waiting for my full HE belt on my M2 50 cal. as an interim fix for the lack of API in my 47. 

[MAJ_stug41]

Cant the shaking effect be adjusted? I havent played in months, but im pretty sure I turned shaking off on mine years ago.

[FuriousMeow]

Turn off cinematic camera, shakey shake goes away. 

11 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

That's odd, I parked a few different 109 models if front of the Pe-2.87 gunner and let him hit me.  I noticed no such effect.

 

Happened with 190 and 110, doubt its plane dependent though since it's just the cinematic camera.

[kestrel79]

Is there any real world sources from books that say the German explosive shells did this to airplanes?

 

This is a physics math problem for the smart people I just thought of? Would a rear gunner's bullets from a bomber hitting a fighter have more kinetic impact since they are flying at eachother (like a head-on car collision) than a fighter shooting it's bullets at the bomber as they are flying in the same direction? Or does it not matter since both aircraft are flying forward?

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

6 hours ago, FuriousMeow said:

Turn off cinematic camera, shakey shake goes away. 

 

Happened with 190 and 110, doubt its plane dependent though since it's just the cinematic camera.

 

I thought cinematic camera was for external views only.

 

---------

 

I'm not saying there should be zero effect but, in reality versus something like a P-47 the most of it would probably be felt as a vibration through the controls, not an impact with enough power to wildly knock the gunsight off-target.   

I get it that when it comes to sensory feedback that at-home sims just can't reproduce (even with force feedback equipment) some sort of effect might be in order but, for the effect to be that strong is, IMHO, too much. 

[FuriousMeow]

23 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

I thought cinematic camera was for external views only.

 

 

It seems to be linked to things that explode, so in cockpit or not if something explodes if you don't have the cinematic enabled it won't shake like Michael J. Fox.

[TRRA15]

https://www.geocities.ws/gustin_e/fgun/fgun-pe.html

 

For what it's worth, and just for fun. Scroll down to the "Medium Calibre Machine Guns" area. We see that the MG 131, while capable, gives up some performance metrics for it's relatively light weight and high rate of fire.

Edited May 18, 2023 by TRRA15

[RossMarBow]

On 5/16/2023 at 5:51 PM, Art-J said:

Ross has a habit of posting short messages which sometimes seem to be out of context or not make much sense so this time by giving benefit of doubt I'd suspect he meant explosive rounds for that 13 mm machine gun. I don't know what belting the 410 uses for its gunner, though, never flown the plane.

Considering how this topic has been done to death on the forum.

I didn't feel like he needed more than a basic correction, and I was more worried about others reading this thread and thinking OP was correct. 
A basic search up on these topics on the forum yields more information on this topic than you could ever want.

 

Would you like to know more?
 

[Ghost666]

13 hours ago, RossMarBow said:

Would you like to know more?

The truth, and I know it's out there! ?

[Willy__]

Where's Luke with his dead (possible rotten by now) horse when we need it ?