Thinking about late-war German two-seaters (and how they are represented in the sim).

[Avimimus]

The selection of German two-seaters is actually pretty good! Rise of Flight had German four two-seaters (compared to one for France):

- The DFC C.V was by far the most produced general purpose German two-seater (and only partially replaced by the LVG C.V by the end of the war).

- The Halberstadt Cl.II is representative of the trend on the late war towards creating lighter two-seaters that could better defend themselves.

 

The outlier is the Roland C.II - which was a very unusual design, produced in limited numbers, and unusually fast for 1916. This creates a situation where the early Entente fighters lack two-seaters they can actually intercept. However, it is far too early to be relevant to this thread.

 

So consider this something of an anti-suggestion thread. That said, there is a clear interest in chatting about what other late war German two-seaters existed, and what they would be like in the sim if they had been chosen.

 

Rumpler C.IV

 

 

 

Overview:

- The Rumpler series was famously difficult to intercept due to their speed and altitude.

- Reportedly difficult to fly: tail heavy, prone to sudden stalls, difficult spin recoveries, and vulnerability to gusts.

- Manoeuvrable, with a good maximum roll rate was good, it was slow to enter a turn and difficult to exist a turn.

 

Performance:
- 175 km/h
- 6800 metres ceiling (~1800 metres higher than other types)
- 100kg bomb load

 

Service:
- April 1917-Armistice
- Peaked at 257 in service

 

Note: Currently the sim lacks a high altitude Rumpler/Rubild type.

The Rumpler C.VII was only marginally higher performance:

Spoiler

- ~5 km/h faster and able to fly about 500 metres higher. 
- Lacked any bombload and ~80% were also completed without forward firing armament.
- Was introduced in December 1917 (giving it about half the service live) and less than half the number in service (compared to the C.IV).

Note: The C.VII did have an interesting field mod with a Lewis added to the defensive Parabellum.

 

 

Hannover CL.II 

 

 

Overview:

- The Hannover had an excellent roll rates and good spin characteristics. It was reportedly able to maintain altitude better in a turn, allowing it to out-fly aircraft like the Sopwith Camel (which would lose altitude while circling).

- Biplane horizontal stabilisers to further improve field of fire for the gunner.

The 'CL' category of lightened two seater is represented by the Halberstadt Cl.II (already in the sim). However, there are differences, compared to the Halberstadt:

- The Hannover had a much larger wing, resulting in a lower wing loading (22.19 kg/m2 vs. 29.02 kg/m2)! This means it would fly significantly differently.

- It was slightly lighter than the Halberstadt.

 

Performance:
- 165 km/h
- Armament appears limited to one forward firing and one flexible machine gun.

Note: Flight Magazine mentions bombs, but I have yet to find any evidence of these (other than hand-held bombs) and no option for two-fixed guns like on the Halberstadt seems to exist. Note: The initial focus was on escorting other two-seaters and protecting artillery positions, before being shifted to ground attack.

 

Service:
- December 1917 (until gradual replacement by the slightly smaller Hannover CL.IIIa in late 1918).
- Peaks at 295 in service.

 

Note on later similar types: 

Spoiler

- Hannover Cl.IIIa was produced in large numbers as well, but served a short period (introduced April 1918 compared to October 1917 for the Cl.II). It increased performance by being slightly smaller in overall dimensions and had slightly better altitude performance.
- The Halberstadt also had a later design near the end of the war (the Cl.IV), with the major improvements being similar in concept (taking the form of a reduction in length and weight by about 10% to further improve maneuverability). It arrived even later and in more limited numbers.

 

 

 

LVG C.V

 

 

Overview:

- Produced in large numbers (partially inspired by the DFW C.V).

- Manoeuverable and well liked (in spite of relatively high weight). A difficult target if flown well.

- Possibly a field modification with armoured seats (at least in hte Russian Civil War)

Performance - LVG C.V:
164 km/h; 1013kg/1535kg; 42.7 m2 wing area

Compare to the DFW C.V:
155 km/h; 970kg/1470kg; 41.52 m2 wing area

 

It is similar to the DFW C.V (already in the sim), in comparison:
- It is ~10 km/h faster
- Slightly better forward visibility (but with view still obscured by engine)
- 110kg bomb load

 

Service:
- August 1917 to Armistice
- Peaked at 565 in service

 

Note: The LVG C.VI entered service starting in June 1918 (close to the end of the war). It was smaller and slightly faster: 170 km/h; 930kg/1309kg; 34.6 m2

 

 

AEG C.IV

 

 

Overview:

- Appeared earlier than the other type (October 1916) and lasted until the end of the war (but wasn't very numerous).

- Welded steel-tube construction (leading to excellent overall structural strength). Several photos exist of aircraft which flipped and remained supported (off the ground) by their upper wing!

- Adjustable incidence tail (with three presets for trim) to reduce pilot fatigue.

 

Performance:
- 158 km/h (similar to the DFW C.V)

- Low wing loading

 

Compared to the DFW C.V (already in the sim):
- The AEG would be similar in speed (only 4km/h faster),

- Much lighter (and with a slightly smaller wing area but lower wing loading).
- It was somewhat harder to fly than earlier types.

 

Service:
- October 1916 to Armistice
- Peaked at 127 in service

 

There were two derivatives:

Spoiler

- C.IV/N had a different engine and a larger wing reducing speed from 158 km/h to 143 km/h but lowered landing speeds and increasing the bombload to 300kg! It was slow to climb and lacked a forward firing gun. Served from October 1917 to Armistice (although largely withdrawn in the second half of 1918). Peaked at 37 aircraft.

- AEG J.I/J.II was heavily armoured with several revisions to the wings and a lengthened fuselauge. Oblique downward firing machine guns, four small bombs, or 20mm Becker cannon (mounted as a second gun in the turret, or firing obliquely downwards in the J.II) were used as weapons. Speed was reduced to 140 km/h. Served from June 1917 to Armistice (peaked at 66 for J.I and 65 for J.II).

Note: Both of these derivatives were different enough to be effectively entirely different aircraft.

 

 

 

Albatros C.XII

Overview:

- Unusually high power-to-weight ratios, and relatively fast (but still vulnerable to Entente fighters).

- Prone to structural failure of the fuselauge, and prone to radiator ruptures.

- Shares some design element with the Albatros C.X and J.I

 

Performance:
- 175km/h (~180 km/h for OAW examples). Considered somewhat inferior in at altitude to the Rumpler C.IV but slightly higher in speed at medium altitudes
- Power-to-weight ratio is among the highest for German two-seaters (rivalled only by the Hannover Cl.IIIa)

 

Service:
- June 1917 to Armistice (but increasingly withdrawn from front-line roles after the spring of 1918)
- Peaked at 92 in service

 

Note: Some sources give much higher speeds. However, it seems like the speeds listed here are more plausible. The AGO C.IV was reported as faster, but was quickly withdrawn from active service. Other fast types (~170 km/h) are the Albatros C.X and LVG C.VI and the later Rumpler designs.

 

Note: Service numbers would be higher if it is also a stand-in for the Albatros C.X, which was broadly similar in performance and time period (sharing an almsost identical powerplant and wings) - with the C.X being slightly slower and withdrawn slightly earlier. However, the numbers in service are still about 1/3rd those of the mid-war Albatros C.I/C.III/C.VII two-seaters).

 

Note: Albatros J.I variant replaced central fuselage with an armoured one, the engine was also changed, while the wings radiator and rear fuselauge were the same. Albatros J.1 was lighter than the AEG J.1 (and easier to takeoff and land), but it was less numerous and the engine was largely unprotected. Armament consisted of two oblique downward firing machine guns, or an oblique sideways firing 20mm cannon (allowing it to act as a circling gunship) in addition to the gunner's defensive gun (which was also retained). It peaked with 51 in service.

 

 

Shorter summaries

 

Rumpler C.IV: Exceptional high altitude performance, a relatively high speed (175 km/h), but with difficult handling characteristics.

 

Hannover CL.II: Similar concept to the Halberstadt CL.II but with a much lower wing loading (i.e. larger wing area). Very good turning performance. Distinctive tail.

 

LVG C.V: Next most produced after the DFW (and partly replaced it). Well liked with good turn performance in spite of its weight.

 

AEG C.IV: Low wing-loading. Structurally strong with extensive use of steel tube construction and high quality welds. Neither particularly fast nor very numerically significant.

 

Albatros C.XII: Unusually high power to weight ratio (if only slightly faster than other types). Weak fuselauge structure. Shares wings and tail with the partially armoured Albatros J.I.

 

Overall, the massive production of the DFW C.V (and its ability to somewhat represent the LVG C.V inspired by it), along with the Halberstadt CL.II representing the lightened two seater concept means that late war two-seaters are well represented (with the one significnat exception being the high altitude types).
 

[J99_Sizzlorr]

I would like to add the Junkers JI to your list. It is in the armoured ground attack plane category, and was the first all metal plane to go into production. First flight was in 1917. Some 200 were build up the end of the war.

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by J99_Sizzlorr

[Avimimus]

  

On 4/29/2023 at 3:20 PM, J99_Sizzlorr said:

I would like to add the Junkers JI to your list. It is in the armoured ground attack plane category, and was the first all metal plane to go into production. First flight was in 1917. Some 200 were build up the end of the war.

 

What is left of the surviving example is kept in a museum near where I grew up! It is a very interesting plane - although I do wonder about the gameplay of types without any armament for the pilot.

 

Anyway - It took me a while to get around to it - but I've updated the thread with a post on the J-types:

 

[BMA_Hellbender]

The Rumpler C.VII / Rubild is the plane that is missing the most from the current planeset, along with the overcompressed Fokker D.VII 200hp. You simply can’t have mid to late 1918 high altitude combat (6000m) without those two. Since the DFW C.V can’t climb above 5000m (if that), there is zero incentive to go any higher for Entente and face BMW-powered scouts at an absolute disadvantage for no reason.

[Avimimus]

40 minutes ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

The Rumpler C.VII / Rubild is the plane that is missing the most from the current planeset, along with the overcompressed Fokker D.VII 200hp. You simply can’t have mid to late 1918 high altitude combat (6000m) without those two. Since the DFW C.V can’t climb above 5000m (if that), there is zero incentive to go any higher for Entente and face BMW-powered scouts at an absolute disadvantage for no reason.

 

What do you think of my suggestion that the C.IV is more useful overall? It can reach 5800 metres (compared to ~6300 metres). That should make the C.IV almost as hard to catch as the C.VIII. The C.IV was also built in larger numbers, was more multi-role (i.e. could carry bombs), and entered service earlier (April 1917 rather than December 1917 - meaning the C.IV was used for 18 months instead of 10 months).

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

I would like to add the Junkers JI to your list. It is in the armoured ground attack plane category, and was the first all metal plane to go into production. First flight was in 1917. Some 200 were build up the end of the war.

 

I’d love her too and the various J armoured classes.

 

Herris gives 186 J class of all manufacture in service by August as recorded in the Frontbestand Inventory, with 60 Junkers at the front. I’ve no other source to support that there were many more of this by October but you’d assume there were additional units.

 

18 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

What do you think of my suggestion that the C.IV is more useful overall? It can reach 5800 metres (compared to ~6300 metres). That should make the C.IV almost as hard to catch as the C.VIII. The C.IV was also built in larger numbers, was more multi-role (i.e. could carry bombs), and entered service earlier (April 1917 rather than December 1917 - meaning the C.IV was used for 18 months instead of 10 months).

The Rubild started to see decent numbers at the front by August and appears in the Inventory in October:

 

As for the most important missing bird by numbers from the C class, Herris gives 533 LVG CV/VIs at the front in August. By far the most numerous thought at that time was our DFW.

Edited April 29, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

The Rumpler C.VII / Rubild is the plane that is missing the most from the current planeset, along with the overcompressed Fokker D.VII 200hp. You simply can’t have mid to late 1918 high altitude combat (6000m) without those two. Since the DFW C.V can’t climb above 5000m (if that), there is zero incentive to go any higher for Entente and face BMW-powered scouts at an absolute disadvantage for no reason.

And the high compression Hispano Suiza 8B 220hp variants which became standard in early 1918 (SPAD XIII, SE5a HS - not the Viper, Sopwith Dolphin).

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

The Rubild started to see decent numbers at the front by August and appears in the Inventory in October

 

That is still seven months after the introduction of the Rumpler C.IV - which is about half-way closer to the Armistice! So, the C.IV still spent about twice as much time at the front.

 

Note: The ceiling increase for the Rubild Mb over the C.IV was only about 7%... so I gather that the big leap in performance was the development of the C.IV (with only modest gains thereafter).

[No.23_Starling]

15 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

That is still seven months after the introduction of the Rumpler C.IV - which is about half-way closer to the Armistice! So, the C.IV still spent about twice as much time at the front.

 

Note: The ceiling increase for the Rubild Mb over the C.IV was only about 7%... so I gather that the big leap in performance was the development of the C.IV (with only modest gains thereafter).

Nearly 260 Rumpler CIVs active by mid 1917. Data below is Feb - Dec by year skipping every other month

[PatrickAWlson]

Any later war 2 seater would be a boon.  LVG C.V was a workhorse.  Rumpler would be good.  Similarly, adding a proper early war recon 2 seater (not the Roland!) would be a major factor in making FC3 viable for campaign play.

 

[Avimimus]

On 5/8/2023 at 1:23 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

Any later war 2 seater would be a boon.  LVG C.V was a workhorse.  Rumpler would be good.  Similarly, adding a proper early war recon 2 seater (not the Roland!) would be a major factor in making FC3 viable for campaign play.

 

Interesting thoughts. From the perspective of having typical/representative types for realistic campaigns:

 

The LVG C.V replaced only part of the DFW C.V fleet by the end of the war - so the DFW does give us that to a degree. Their differences in performance and appearance aren't that dramatic. The Rumpler has a stronger case - as it would expand interceptions to higher altitudes and represent high altitude intercepts, tactics and types. The C.IV could stand in for the Rumpler C.VII and Rubild types, and perhaps even the Albatros C.X which briefly tried to compete with the Rumplers. So I think it would add something.

 

I agree that the biggest benefit for campaigns would by a two seater which is slow enough for the Nieuport N.11 or Airco D.H.2 to actually catch (i.e. LVG C.II or Albatros C.I or a b-type)!

 

One thing you might be interested in: There would still be a small gap in the winter of 1916/1917:

- This is a period when the early types are being withdrawn but the DFW C.V hasn't appeared. During this period the Albatros C.I was gradually replaced by the C.III and then briefly both were replaced by the C.VII (shortly before the DFW replaces everything). The Rumpler C.I was also common in this transitional period.

- That said, the older types remained (at the end of February 1917 there are still 57 Albatros C.I and 87 LVG C.II at the front, with DFW C.V numbers reaching 79 during the same period) so an intermediate type isn't strictly necessary. We really do need the early ones though.

 

P.S. As for me, I've increasingly taken a liking to the Hannover Cl.II ...even if we already have a Cl type in the form of the Halberstadt.

[PatrickAWlson]

Since I am so focused on campaigns I am always thinking of gaps.  Every side always had a dependable, stable aircraft for recon at all times during the war.  The FE2b and RE8 were a huge boost for the game.  I use them for French pushers and the Dorand in addition to their British identities.  IMHO I really wish they had given us the RE8 and not the DH4.  

[Trooper117]

I have a feeling that the head shed up there don't care much for the early war side of things... I think they have the opinion that mid to late war sells well, and that not many people are that interested in early war so not so good sellers.

It beggars belief that they don't seem to get that the main focus of WWI air combat was mainly about patrolling and finding the opposite sides recon and spotting aeroplanes, and stopping them from getting any valuable info and intelligence back to their lines.

[=IRFC=Gascan]

That and the artillery spotting.

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

I have a feeling that the head shed up there don't care much for the early war side of things... I think they have the opinion that mid to late war sells well, and that not many people are that interested in early war so not so good sellers.

It beggars belief that they don't seem to get that the main focus of WWI air combat was mainly about patrolling and finding the opposite sides recon and spotting aeroplanes, and stopping them from getting any valuable info and intelligence back to their lines.

 

I think it is partly due to the history of the product though. Rise of Flight was originally released as an online focussed dogfighting game with two flyable aircraft and the addition of two AI two-seaters. They then added the Fokker E.III and Airco D.H.2 as an alternative PvP experience - but without a campaign environment for them.

 

The did release the Nieuports after that, but it was really only towards the end of development that we were getting earlier aircraft - with the Sopwith Strutter, Halberstadt D.II, R.E.8, and Airco F.E.2b being among the last aircraft released. If Cliffs of Dover had succeeded spectacularly I can't help but wonder if we would've seen a few more early types being developed by the team. As it is, they refocussed on Battle of Stalingrad around this time.

 

 

[Avimimus]

On 4/29/2023 at 3:20 PM, J99_Sizzlorr said:

I would like to add the Junkers JI to your list. It is in the armoured ground attack plane category, and was the first all metal plane to go into production. First flight was in 1917. Some 200 were build up the end of the war.

 

In 1918 German two seaters developed in four directions - squeezing ever smaller increases in altitude out of the Rumplers (leading to the Rubild type), lightening and increasing manoeuvrability so that two-seaters could fight back (leading to the 'cl' type), optimising for night bombing (leading to the N type) and adding armour protection (leading to the J type).

While often thought of as 'Sturmoviks' (i.e. ground attack/close-support aircraft) the J-types were mainly used to map the front-lines from low altitude and for contact patrols to resupply (or deliver communications) to forward positions.

 

Diving in these types at low altitude was dangerous, so any fixed guns were mounted to fire downward at an angle. I've done some experiments using the front-gunner position of the Handley-Page, and it might be possible with practice to destroy a truck in three or four passes with the current damage model - but overall it would be difficult to use. Generally, weapons were operated by the observer in these types. These types were eventually developed as platforms carrying 20mm Becker cannons to attack Entente tanks (most extensively developed in the AEG series, but also present in a few Albatros examples). Only the AEG type carried bomb racks.

 

Overall, these J-types generally had difficulty climbing and sustaining turns. I suspect that the gameplay experience would be mainly carefully watching the airspeed while the AI gunner uses up its ammunition trying to hit ground targets. That said, they might make interesting artillery observation platforms.

 

Relevance:

By the end of 1918 these J-types remained less than 1/12th of all land-based two-seaters in German use. Approximately twice as many AEG were in service than either of the other types (and the Junkers only appeared in numbers just before the Armistice in the fall of 1918, making it the least common type overall).

 

Albatros J.I

 

The Albatros J.I was an Albatros C.XXI with the central fuselage replaced with a partially armoured one and a new engine (but the wings, radiator, and rear fuselage were retained). An Albatros J.II, with a new more fully armoured fuselage, entered service just before the armistice.

 

Performance and protection:
- 140 km/h
- More lightly armoured than the other types (with the engine being largely unprotected).

- Lower wing loading and easier to fly than the AEG J.I.
 

Armament: Options included oblique downward firing machine guns (at 45 degrees). A 20mm cannon was also trialled in the J.I in an oblique sideways firing mount (allowing it to act as a circling gunship) in addition to the gunner's defensive gun which was also retained.

 

Service: 
- December 1917 to Armistice
- It peaked with 51 in service.

 

 

AEG J.I / AEG J.II

 

 

The AEG J.I was more extensively different from the AEG C.IV it was based upon. It had additional ailerons, with later production including a lengthened fuselage, while the J.II had the wing further improved and enlarged.

 

Performance and protection:
- 140 km/h
- More extensive armouring and durability than the Albatros J.I, with some cables and the uppermost part of the radiator being the known weak spots.

- Difficult to take-off and land. Smaller wing area than the Albatros (but a similar weight, leading to a higher wing-loading).
 

Armament:
- Options included oblique downward firing machine guns (at 45 degrees). The J.II had a 20mm Becker cannon, either mounted obliquely for the gunner (with the defensive machine-gun also retained) or in an oblique downward firing configuration.
- Unique among J-types, the AEG could carry four small bombs.

 

Service: 
- December 1917 to Armistice (with a handful appearing earlier in June 1917). 
- Peaked at 66 for the J.I and 65 for the J.II

 

 

Junkers J.I

 

 

 

The Junkers J.I was a completely new and rather unique cantilever biplane. This gives it a striking appearance, although it served only near the end of the war.

 

Performance and protection:
- Junkers had a slightly higher speed than the other types (155 km/h vs. 140 km/h), but had a lower power-to-weight ratio.
- It had the most extensive armouring of all three types and weighed the most.

- It was reportedly a good glider. It also had an effective rudder and was good in rough weather, but had a long take-off run.
 

Armament:
- It had the weakest armament, being restricted to just 1000 rounds for the gunner and a few hand-grenades. 
- The oblique downward firing guns were only tested in one prototype before being abandoned and the 20mm cannon testbed was still in development when the war ended. No photographs of either arrangement appear to survive.

 

Service:
- Numbers gradually increase from August 1917 but it only appears in similar numbers to the other types in August 1918.
- Peaks at 60 aircraft in service.