Confirmed, Brunner FFB is m̷a̷l̷f̷u̷n̷c̷t̷i̷o̷n̷a̷l̷. f̷u̷n̷c̷t̷i̷o̷n̷a̷l̷. semi-functional.

[Panzerlang]

I alt-tabbed out to adjust my sounds in the RealTek console, went back into the game to discover roll to the left pushes the FFB backwards, roll to the right and it pulls the stick forward. The only way to fix it is to re-start the game.

It might be the game's code, it might be Brunner's implementation of DX.

I doubt the devs will commit any resources to this unfortunately, given how few people there are using FFB. Plus I doubt they have a Brunner stick to work with.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Hetzer-JG51

[Guest]

Fingers crossed but breath not held. Lol.

"Hi Daniela.

Update to my previous email.

I can now confirm the stick is not functioning as advertised in DX mode.

Not only is there zero FFB with aileron-roll in IL2 Great Battles, if I alt-tab out of the game and then go back in a roll to the left also pushes back on pitch and a roll to the right pulls forward on pitch. The only way to clear this behaviour is to restart the game.

The best solution I can think of is that you guys provide a plugin as exists for X-Plane, DCS and MSFS etc.
As it stands, I have two options:

a) Un-install the stick and put it on a shelf as an expensive decoration.
b) Send it back for a refund as 'not fit for purpose' (DX mode is not working as advertised).

I should mention that there are a number of people in the IL2 community who are or have been thinking about purchasing your stick and there is one definite who has decided against it following my reports on the forum.

Please let me know if a plugin is possible (I guess you would have to purchase a copy of the game).

Kind regards. :)"

[C6_lefuneste]

3 hours ago, Hetzer-JG51 said:

It might be the game's code, it might be Brunner's implementation of DX.

No issue with the Rhino...From my experience Il2 has a getter implementation of FFB than DCS, because all planes don't have FFB effect in DCS.

[Guest]

Good news:

"Hi,

thanks for your feedback and the details on issues with IL2.

I was able to reproduce the behaviour at our site with IL2 and I think we'll be able to provide a solution quite soon.

We were working on improvements on the USB config tool the past few days and expect to release an update this week. 

I'm confident that we can also provide a patch for the firmware at the same time which will solve the problem with DX mode in IL2.

I'll make sure to let you know when we push the update to our website.

 

kind regards,"

?

[Guest]

Well, that was fast. I'll re-install the stick today and also up the amplitude in IL2's config and see how it goes.

"

I have even better news:

The update is live!

Please find the link to the firmware updater and the new release of the USB config tool here:

https://forum.brunner-innovation.swiss/

 

I tested it with IL2 and was able to get feedback as expected. Please let me know if you still have any issues. I noticed that the stick shaking effect with IL2 is pretty weak, even when shaking config in IL2 is set to 100%. I therefore strongly recommend you set the "Global FX Gain" of the joystick with our USB config tool to 100% as well (default is 50%).

 

kind regards,

Michael Menzi"

[Guest]

Sorted, both roll and pitch are now fully functional.

Unfortunately, even with all forces maxed in the Brunner USB Config tool, the periodic forces (shake and rumble) are weak. In the IL2 FFB config file it's not possible to adjust the default settings, they are "hard coded". Only those old FFB devices that are coded-in can be adjusted, so the IL2 devs would have to add the Brunner stick specifically. Yeah, lol, when hell freezes over, right?

Fortunately for me (at least) the two Buttkicker LFEs I have mounted make weak stick-shake pretty much a non issue. And the stick forces do complement them, weak as they are.

Is it worth the money? It's variable FFB force according to speed vs a fixed force (Virpil springs) regardless of speed. It's a subtle enhancement to immersion I guess. Value for money, entirely subjective.

[Guest]

Puh. One minute in a hard turn with a Mig, the FFB cut out (over-heat). I've emailed Brunner.

"Hi Michael.

Maybe I should call you Housten for this email, because we have a problem. Your stick loses its FFB due to over-heat and after researching this I discovered it's an old and well-known issue with this stick in combat flight-sims. I have to ask, why was this not noted anywhere on your site?

My mind immediately turns to solutions other than a return and refund.

Can the steel case be removed and the stick used without it?

Would it solve the issue to vent the steel case (drill holes in it)? And mount a PC fan to blow/suck air through the holes?

This did not happen in a particularly protracted dogfight, I was pulling a hard turn for maybe a minute while chasing a Mig. Suddenly the stick 'let go' and I was flying with a noodle in my hand. Not cool sir, this is not acceptable in a £1200 piece of kit. When you sell it to flight simmers the very least you should do is note on the website, front & centre, that it's not suitable for *combat* flight sims.

Please let me know if any of the solutions above are possible/will solve the issue.

TIA and kind regards"

[Guest]

That's the cooling idea out the window. So it's either dial back the force settings or revert to the Virpil. I tried it at 75% force on all sliders (Brunner USB Config); it didn't reduce force, it just suddenly let go (though I did jerk back on the stick to avoid an IL2 that reared up in front of me). *sigh*.

"I have to admit this can happen when the stick is put under a lot of load constantly. Are you using a HOTAS extension?

The stick is rated for 4.2Nm PEAK force transparently in the shop. This doesn't mean you can expect the stick to work with 4.2Nm constantly.

It's the motors that get extremely hot when under max load. 

We had some motors failing in the past because users operated them at the maximum rated load for hours and they basically burned through, so we had to take safety measures to prevent this. 

 

Unfortunately venting the device will not help because the driver has a load timer active and when it's under a certain amount of load for a certain amount of time, it automatically scales down the forces for the motors to recover.

The only thing you can do is lowering the forces so it doesn't operate at the limits constantly. We also strongly recommend to not use extensions as 4.2Nm provide quite a good feel in a directly mounted stick, but are perceived drastically weaker with even just a few centimeters of extension.

As a sidenote, there is a way stronger option available in the professional range (CLS-P Joystick), but I know.... it also has it's price tag.

 

I assume that's not the answer you was hoping for, but it's the most honest and accurate answer I can provide. I hope you still enjoy flying with the CLS-E joystick base and the feedback it provides, even when it's not as strong as one would hope."

For those who are curious, the CLS-P can deliver 100nm but it costs $10,000. ?

[ST_Catchov]

*sigh* well waddya expect for  £1200? Go the $10,000 model. Sounds like a good deal.

[Guest]

Well, it's a given that the stick is somewhat mis-represented, in as much that there is no warning about it not being suitable for a combat sim (sustained turn-fights that load the stick for extended periods of time). I've been informed the force-reduction timer is 35 seconds. Yeah, how about that.

The sliders in the USB config, only the TOP one affects in-game performance, the others are only for config-testing. So now they're talking about providing a config that allows the periodic forces to be adjusted separately from the constant forces. That will help.

I've also asked if I can have an 'At My Own Risk' setting that might burn out the motors, which I would replace and fit myself (warranty voided of course).

Yeah, £1200 doesn't get you much. FMG, a stick that has to be dialled back so much it's actually no better than the fking Virpil in feel. A few years ago I'd have been climbing out of my pram. Lol.

[Varibraun]

11 hours ago, Hetzer-JG51 said:

Yeah, £1200 doesn't get you much. FMG, a stick that has to be dialled back so much it's actually no better than the fking Virpil in feel. A few years ago I'd have been climbing out of my pram. Lol.

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to keep us informed on your Brunner journey, I wish that it had a happier ending.  Looks like my Virpil with a Buttkicker on the joystick & throttle mount will be my best "force feedback" for the foreseeable future.  But maybe someday I will have $10K burning a hole in my pocket...LOL!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to keep us informed on your Brunner journey, I wish that it had a happier ending.  Looks like my Virpil with a Buttkicker on the joystick & throttle mount will be my best "force feedback" for the foreseeable future.  But maybe someday I will have $10K burning a hole in my pocket...LOL!

It's all become quite surreal. Back in the UK I had a sim-racing setup based on Fanatec stuff. The wheel-base, £500, was 8nm with the booster power-supply and that could genuinely cause injury if not handled with care.
So, for £1200, I was expecting something similar with the Brunner. Like, top-spec fidelity, power and reliability. What it's turned out to be is something that has been nerfed because when it was used as sold and intended the motors over-heated and burned out (not fit for purpose). Rendering it (oh, the irony) as not fit for purpose. Yet they continue to market it and sell it with not a word to the wise on their website. Something along the lines of "For gentle civilian-plane use only" would be accurate and fair.

I've read it can be run at 50% on the slider, which makes it possible to use in sustained turns (max force) without triggering the force reduction. But lol, what force? At 75% it feels no different to my spring-based Virpil. Yes, there's a bit of shake with guns, stall and landing/taxying but the important stuff (stick forces at various speeds in the air), nerfed to the point of not having much worth having. Not at £1200 + £250 shipping.

And that's the point at which it becomes surreal, because I cannot even begin to fathom why a supposedly legitimate company would pull shit like that. There's no way they don't know and understand what they're doing, so why do it? I'm genuinely baffled.

[SCG_motoadve]

3 hours ago, Hetzer-JG51 said:

It's all become quite surreal. Back in the UK I had a sim-racing setup based on Fanatec stuff. The wheel-base, £500, was 8nm with the booster power-supply and that could genuinely cause injury if not handled with care.
So, for £1200, I was expecting something similar with the Brunner. Like, top-spec fidelity, power and reliability. What it's turned out to be is something that has been nerfed because when it was used as sold and intended the motors over-heated and burned out (not fit for purpose). Rendering it (oh, the irony) as not fit for purpose. Yet they continue to market it and sell it with not a word to the wise on their website. Something along the lines of "For gentle civilian-plane use only" would be accurate and fair.

I've read it can be run at 50% on the slider, which makes it possible to use in sustained turns (max force) without triggering the force reduction. But lol, what force? At 75% it feels no different to my spring-based Virpil. Yes, there's a bit of shake with guns, stall and landing/taxying but the important stuff (stick forces at various speeds in the air), nerfed to the point of not having much worth having. Not at £1200 + £250 shipping.

And that's the point at which it becomes surreal, because I cannot even begin to fathom why a supposedly legitimate company would pull shit like that. There's no way they don't know and understand what they're doing, so why do it? I'm genuinely baffled.

Sorry to hear about your problems, in DCS people seem to be very happy with their Brunner.

Might be a IL2 issue? 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Sorry to hear about your problems, in DCS people seem to be very happy with their Brunner.

Might be a IL2 issue? 

There was one guy on the DCS forum who sent his back for a refund due to the over-heat protection. The guys that are happy, I believe they are mostly chopper pilots. Fast jet pilots don't do a lot of sustained-turn dogfighting either. It's us WW2 fighter pilots who find the limits of this mickey-mouse stick (in 35 seconds to be precise, lol).

[DragonDaddy]

I applaud the calm and rational way you are dealing with this. Although I imagine there were times when you went a little ballistic with disappointment. I believe I would have!