Speed and effectiveness of flak

[Deacon352nd]

When setting up flak, what setting assures more accurate and faster rate of fire- low or high?

[jollyjack]

I think low settings cause them to be more active, dunno 'bout effectiveness.

[Jaegermeister]

3 hours ago, Deacon352nd said:

When setting up flak, what setting assures more accurate and faster rate of fire- low or high?

 

Low or high what? AI level or force complete?

I'm not sure you will get a faster rate of fire with either one, but if you do it would be with high level AI. They will be more accurate for sure, but I have not tested the rate of fire. I thought that had to do with reload time.

[Monty_Thrud]

AFAIK...

 

Low=slightly inaccurate but can still kill

Med=Will be more accurate

High=Non shall pass, mostly

 

Dont think fire rate is affected, I tend to use large calibre AAA on Medium and 20-30mm Machine Gun AAA on Low, otherwise on Low large Calibre AAA fire at ground, air, buildings, its so inaccurate.

[Stonehouse]

Skill of the crew doesn't impact ROF only accuracy. Particularly the initial bracketing shot is where the danger is in stock AAA. You are quite likely to get damaged or killed with the first shot fired by the AAA without much warning at all.

[Gambit21]

Rate of fire is a big problem with the 88’s. The search/decision/fire/repeat loop is not what it should be.

 

Basically a gun searches the zone then (finally) fires, but instead of firing another shot/tracking the aircraft it starts over. 
 

If set to attack area the same behavior occurs as the gun decides on where to (eventually) fire the next shot.

So any kind of pucker-factor flack is impossible without using way too many guns. 

 

 

 

[Stonehouse]

57 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Basically a gun searches the zone then (finally) fires, but instead of firing another shot/tracking the aircraft it starts over. 

Interesting........are you saying it treats each shot as if it was new target? Does that mean the initial bracketing error is applied each time?

 

If each time it shoots it is like a new target then perhaps reducing the target recognition delay might speed up the time taken to make each shot

Edited March 21, 2023 by Stonehouse

[IckyATLAS]

There are two parameters in combination to set up for all what is AAA. Ground artillery does not consider the Force Complete parameter only AI.

 

Force Complete set to:

Low = max rate of fire, quicker reaction time  and immediate start of fire as soon as the target is in range.

Medium = later start of fire, slower reaction time and lower rate of fire.

High = stand by, no firing.

 

Firing entity AI setting:

High :     means high accuracy

Normal : means average accuracy

Low :      means very bad shooter low hit rate

 

So the combination Low/High is lethal say with a vierverling German AAA  if you are in range.

 

 

 

[Gambit21]

9 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Interesting........are you saying it treats each shot as if it was new target? Does that mean the initial bracketing error is applied each time?

Essentially, yes.

 

 

 

 

Mind you I can’t see the code, I just watch the gun behavior.

 

 

[Jaegermeister]

The AI level adjusts how many times the vehicle or plane misses before it hits. It was originally a 1 shot 1 kill scenario on high, but a time delay was put in before the follow up shot or shots. The AI already knows if it hit or not the instant it fires. The accuracy level has been adjusted several times now since that was implemented, and I have not analyzed it closely since then.
 

I think IckyATLAS is right on the money now.

[Gambit21]

What I notice about "attack area" is that instead of firing at a reasonable rate within the zone in question, it looks around, (you can see the gun barrel scanning around) then finally fires a shot...then starts the process over. It takes far too long, and puts far too few rounds in the sky. The target aircraft comes and goes with the gun only getting a handful of shots off, and you'll barely notice if you notice at all.

 

It should be firing 15-20 arounds per minute, and while I haven't timed it exactly, it's more like 3 to 8 rounds per minute...and I'm being nice with the 8 just to cover myself. In my testing I never saw anything close to that. It was slow even watching with time accell. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Gambit21

[Stonehouse]

Ok strange. My observations with working on the AAA mod were that each shot is calculated to be 100% accurate within the dispersion of the gun itself but that the accuracy for actually resolving each shot is reduced by the introduction of aiming errors based on skill level. So, there is an initial bracketing error which gets reduced each time a shot is made on the same target plus the error for each skill level. In stock the bracketing error is small so you can often see first shot kills especially with high skill crews. The responsiveness is other parameters as best I can see which inflict a time period of no fire on each gun when it goes to acquire a new target. Speed of rotation and elevation and rate of fire is part of the gun definition and as far as I can tell is independent of crew quality. ie if I reduce all the aiming error factors then the accuracy is purely the gun dispersion (which is quite low usually).

 

I don't know that much about mission building so wasn't aware of the force complete thing IckyAtlas mentioned but I did a quick test via a QMB mission with the AAA mod on yesterday where a single A20 overflew an airfield with 2 88s. The A20 was at around 3000m and I left it on auto level and watched the guns and they seemed very responsive and believable in tracking the target, and I believe they achieved the 15 odd rounds per min an 88 should do. I didn't see a "fire - big pause - fire" type thing. I suspect that my adjustments to search time and target recognition delay have helped things or perhaps quick missions use one of the force complete settings that give a better rate of fire and quicker target acquisition. If I get time, I will try the same mission with stock AAA and that should indicate whether it is the mod or the mission responsible for the 88s behaviour.

 

The two guns put up a creditable flak barrage around the A20 with pretty constant bursts exploding around the aircraft and damaged the aircraft and incapacitated one of the crew noting that I have increased the initial bracketing error in the mod and increased the max dispersal cutoff value (I believe this is a limit on how big dispersal can get a x meters range) to get rid of the first shot kill situation to a large degree. It can still happen though. There is also an aim error modifier and Aim delay modifier in the gun definition that I have adjusted. That's why I was interested in Gambit's comment and was concerned as if each shot was like an initial shot as it would mean I probably need to alter the mod.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Gambit21]

I see...yeah I can't comment on the bracketing error...you'd know more about that than me.

 

[Jaegermeister]

2 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

That's why I was interested in Gambit's comment and was concerned as if each shot was like an initial shot as it would mean I probably need to alter the mod.

 

No worries, there is a routine for the entire firing sequence once a gun or vehicle is activated.

 

The problem I have noticed is that the various AA guns start tracking within their set ranges but don't start firing until the plane or planes pass overhead and are flying away. That cuts down the firing time to 1/3 or 1/4 of what a real crew would put up at incoming enemy planes.

 

There are ways to make the guns fire earlier, but they won't hit anything.

  

[Stonehouse]

4 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

No worries, there is a routine for the entire firing sequence once a gun or vehicle is activated.

 

The problem I have noticed is that the various AA guns start tracking within their set ranges but don't start firing until the plane or planes pass overhead and are flying away. That cuts down the firing time to 1/3 or 1/4 of what a real crew would put up at incoming enemy planes.

 

There are ways to make the guns fire earlier, but they won't hit anything.

  

Ok I don't see that with the mod on. Which was one of the basic points of doing the mod. Mod on the 88s begin to track the A20 as it enters range and fire until it goes out of range.

[IckyATLAS]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:51 PM, Gambit21 said:

What I notice about "attack area" is that instead of firing at a reasonable rate within the zone in question, it looks around, (you can see the gun barrel scanning around) then finally fires a shot...then starts the process over

Interesting I have never used the Attack Area for AAA action I mean to direct firing at planes.

I always used the Attack Area for either Air to Ground attack by planes, or for ground artillery to attack ground targets in a given area.

So it may be interesting to check the effect of the Attack Area with the other two command parameters and see what difference it makes.

 

[Gambit21]

I’ve tested them backwards and forwards, with and without attack area. Like was already mentioned, that they won’t fire on an incoming aircraft is a huge problem.

Same for flak/half-tracks. By the time they’re geared up to fire, the aircraft is on the way out.

 

[Jaegermeister]

As long as you understand what they are going to do, you can make the result what you want it to be. If you stagger the range and activation of AAA it can be as deadly as you prefer or not.

 

The only real problem is when changes are implemented and you have to rework the whole mission because it no longer turns out as intended. Be careful what you ask for, or you might get it.

 

 

[IckyATLAS]

4 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

As long as you understand what they are going to do, you can make the result what you want it to be. If you stagger the range and activation of AAA it can be as deadly as you prefer or not.

This is very true. Once you understand well the various behaviors then you can use them in your scenario to have the intended result.

The problem is that to perfectly master this editor it means an incredible investment of time to really master the stuff, and we are not many to have gone through that rabbit hole.

 

However there are limitation that unfortunately you cannot solve and that are absolutely necessary to have.  At that moment things should recognized and corrected.

As we speak of gunnery then let me insist on one issue that you cannot circumvent whatsoever and that is to have a AI bombers flying straight and turning only on the waypoints even if attacked by planes or flak (waypoint priority set to High) with gunners firing fully against the attacking enemy planes.

This scenario is impossible to do today (I tried everything I could but I do not know everything) except for the player in his plane where he can have an AI pilot and himself firing from the various gunner positions. So when Rheinland and Normandy was released this should have been corrected long ago.

 

 

[Jaegermeister]

12 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

As we speak of gunnery then let me insist on one issue that you cannot circumvent whatsoever and that is to have a AI bombers flying straight and turning only on the waypoints even if attacked by planes or flak (waypoint priority set to High) with gunners firing fully against the attacking enemy planes.

This scenario is impossible to do today (I tried everything I could but I do not know everything) except for the player in his plane where he can have an AI pilot and himself firing from the various gunner positions.

 

I completely agree. The selected AI pilot behavior should not prevent the defensive gunners from firing.

 

I will look into as soon as I get a chance, there are some short term deadlines that have to be met first.