Aircraft destroyed / Aircraft damaged

[Bussard_x]

Never really understood this all those years, shot down 4 aircraft, but why do you see the 44% and 98% also under Aircraft damaged?

This is double it seems, this has been since the release in 2011. 

 

 

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

4 hours ago, Bussard2 said:

shot down 4 aircraft, but why do you see the 44% and 98% also under Aircraft damaged?

 

 

At the end of the mision, some aircraft made it, not that they necessarily went back to their airfields, but they weren't counted as destroyed when you stopped the mission.

 

Out of those that made it, at least two of them were damaged by you:

 

"Hurricane IIb . Player damage: 98%": on this specific damaged Hurri, 2% of the damage was caused by other planes and 98% of the damage came from your attacks (bullets, shells, bombs, accidental collisions, on-purpose collisions... or whatever things you made so that the aircraft ended up receiving the damage it received).

 

Spitfire IIb . Player damage: 44%: on this specific damaged Spitfire, 56% of the damage was caused by other planes and 44% of the damage came from your attacks (bullets, shells, bombs, accidental collisions, on-purpose collisions... or whatever things you made so that the aircraft ended up receiving the damage it received).

 

 

 

[Bussard_x]

On 3/19/2023 at 4:46 AM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

At the end of the mision, some aircraft made it, not that they necessarily went back to their airfields, but they weren't counted as destroyed when you stopped the mission.

 

Out of those that made it, at least two of them were damaged by you:

 

"Hurricane IIb . Player damage: 98%": on this specific damaged Hurri, 2% of the damage was caused by other planes and 98% of the damage came from your attacks (bullets, shells, bombs, accidental collisions, on-purpose collisions... or whatever things you made so that the aircraft ended up receiving the damage it received).

 

Spitfire IIb . Player damage: 44%: on this specific damaged Spitfire, 56% of the damage was caused by other planes and 44% of the damage came from your attacks (bullets, shells, bombs, accidental collisions, on-purpose collisions... or whatever things you made so that the aircraft ended up receiving the damage it received).

 

 

 

 

Okay, but the 44% should only be under Aircraft Damaged and not under both. This is a bug from 2011 release.

 

 

[BOO]

Cant be sure as its a long time ago but I think Storm of War had something of a more refined and accurate way of extracting that type of data  

[Gunfreak]

Best would be.

 

Aircraft destroyed (nobody cares about the %) 

And Aircraft damaged. 

Ideally there should be "shared" kills too.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

On 3/28/2023 at 5:42 PM, Gunfreak said:

Aircraft destroyed (nobody cares about the %) 

And Aircraft damaged. 

Ideally there should be "shared" kills too.

 

 

Sure we care about the %. In connection with the destroyed aircraft, Bussard2's screenshot reads the following percentages:

 

44%

100%

98%

52%

 

If Bussard2 was the player (I guess he was), by means of this statistics page now he knows that, out of these four aerial victories, one entirely belongs to him, not shared with others. The three other are shared victories, we know that, and if that was a single-player mission, and I assume it was, in these three cases yes, we don't care about what specific percentages correspond to his AI colleagues. But, as a player, he has the satisfaction of knowing he got down one Brit with no help from others. In multiplayer mode, realism applies and discussions at the mess, discussions between players at coms I mean, settle (or not) the question of shared victories:

 

- "I'm telling you, the one that crashed close to Ramsgate is mine"

- "No no, I was over this area and shot several times at that Spit, you were behind him thinking you were alone, but you weren't"

- Etc...

 

 

[Buzzsaw]

On 3/18/2023 at 4:15 PM, Bussard2 said:

Never really understood this all those years, shot down 4 aircraft, but why do you see the 44% and 98% also under Aircraft damaged?

This is double it seems, this has been since the release in 2011. 

 

 

 

You see different levels of player damage in the 'destroyed' or 'damaged' boxes to reflect the fact that either a) a percentage of the damage was inflicted by the aircraft crashing into the ground, and/or b) a percentage of the damage was inflicted by another player.

[Volant_Eagle]

On 4/8/2023 at 3:04 PM, Buzzsaw said:

You see different levels of player damage in the 'destroyed' or 'damaged' boxes to reflect the fact that either a) a percentage of the damage was inflicted by the aircraft crashing into the ground, and/or b) a percentage of the damage was inflicted by another player.

Um... doesn't crashing into the ground always cause damage? And doesn't getting shot down always involve crashing? So how is getting 100% possible other than if your target explodes like a TIE fighter?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming this is because the game has arbitrary conditions which if met will mark a particular aircraft as 'destroyed'. After such a point no further damage is counted towards or against anyone's score. I can think of plenty of issues ground damage being counted could cause though. What if I hit my opponent with only one bullet and it cuts his elevator cable. One second later he dives straight into a field. How do the mechanics work for that? I know this gets counted as 100% but I'm not sure how that is. If the stat is supposed to be displaying 'amount of damage dealt to an aircraft that ended up getting destroyed during the mission' and not 'percentage of an aircraft destroyed during the mission that was credited to the player' then how am I getting 100%? If it's the former then I did only 1% damage to the destroyed aircraft and the field did 99%. If it's the later then I should be credited with a full victory because the aircraft was definitely destroyed and I was the only one who damaged it. The game seems to give 100% in this case which is good but rather confusing because that doesn't align with this stat being 'damage dealt'. So which is it? Damage or credit? It seems like an odd mix of the two depending on the situation. It would be much less confusing if 'damage dealt' and 'victory credit' were two separate things in the debrief.

 

For example, if under "Aircraft Destroyed" I see:

 

Spitfire IIb. Player damage: 44%

 

I know that Spitfire was destroyed because it's under the "Aircraft destroyed" section. But I don't know what my credit for the victory is which and that's actually what I care about. Either the other 56% was done by the ground in which case the Spit is 100% credited to me, or the other 56% was caused by other aircraft in which case I only got 44% credit for the Spit. By only seeing the damage % I have no way of knowing which is true.

 

If instead it showed:

 

Spitfire IIb. Player damage: 44% Player credit 100%

or

Spitfire IIb. Player damage: 44% Player credit 44%

 

Then it would be much clearer to people what they actually accomplished during a mission.

 

Alternatively, it might be even better to display the 'credit' as a fraction of how many 'claims' are on that aircraft.

 

Example:

I do 44% damage to the spit and it then crashes: Spitfire IIb. Player damage 44%. Player credit 1.

I do 44% damage to the spit and another player does 56%: Spitfire IIb. Player damage 44%. Player credit 1/2.

I do 44% damage to the spit, another player does 16%, yet another player does 25%, a flak gun does 10%, and the last 5% is done by hitting a tree: Spitfire IIb. Player damage 44%. Player credit 1/4. (trees hurt but they can't make claims)

 

This way of doing the credit would be much closer to how it was really done (every nation had differences though). In real life you could make observations but it would be impossible to know exactly the percentages of damage caused. You'd just know whether some was caused or not (maybe). So a victory would be split up evenly between those claiming it. Sure in some cases it's obvious that one person caused far more damage than another and that may be considered. However, what if the much smaller percentage of damage was done first, and it was only because of this damage that the other pilot was able to get his shots in? It may not exactly be fair to give the first pilot less than half a victory in that case.

 

[Mysticpuma]

I used to love stats. 

Here's a link I posted a while back, but it appears stats aren't of interest

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8548#post93406

[Buffo002]

My opinion is that a damaged plane can fly home, i.e. no kill (unconfirmed kill), so if another player shoots down an already damaged plane that crashes on the ground or into the sea, he should be credited with a kill.

[Volant_Eagle]

7 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

I used to love stats. 

Here's a link I posted a while back, but it appears stats aren't of interest

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8548#post93406

I still love stats.

Lately I've almost exclusively been playing MP on the TWC server and a major reason is the very comprehensive stats. It's so much more rewarding to play when your stats count for something. Especially when they're getting archived and ranked with all the other players on the server. I almost feel like I have to play the server whenever I'm on CloD. The action is so much more intense and you play so much more realistically when you have a career on the line (and when working towards a greater campaign goal). I only play SP when I'm testing something or trying to rectify my incompetence without hurting my stats.

 

I do think a few of the TWC stats are a bit buggy though. I've been getting ground kill assists from recon photos. I think this is intentional to give incentive to do recon and I agree with the idea. However I'm getting them given to me from past lives. I take some photos, die, then a couple days later in my new life I randomly get 40 something ground kills even though I've done no recon or bombing. These assists should either not be awarded post mortem or should be posthumously awarded to the dead me that took the photos not the live me.

It also seems really weird that all kills go toward "Ace" levels. A bomber could possibly knock out 40 ground targets in one mission and be an "Octuple Ace". However, getting 40 air kills period is rather hard and time consuming for a fighter pilot. Having separate career paths for fighters, bombers, and sturmoviks certainly helps with this but it's still weird.

[Volant_Eagle]

6 hours ago, Buffo002 said:

My opinion is that a damaged plane can fly home, i.e. no kill (unconfirmed kill), so if another player shoots down an already damaged plane that crashes on the ground or into the sea, he should be credited with a kill.

I completely agree with you in so far as how it would've played out in real life. However, claims vs reality in actual war are an absolute mess. In your example I would say it would technically be a shared kill. If they would have both gone back to base and each reported the markings on the aircraft they shot, then they may have downgraded the 2nd pilot's kill to a shared kill and upgraded the 1st pilot's damage claim to a shared kill. Both pilots being able to actually report those details seems unlikely though. So in real life I think it would have likely gone as you described.

 

The thing about stats in a simulator is we don't have to work from inaccurate or incomplete reports. I think the method or rubric for stats should be updated to something a little closer to real life methods. However, I think trying to replicate all the real life inaccuracies in the data that would've gone into such a rubric is going a little too far.

[Volant_Eagle]

Though this discussion has been good, I don't think any of us have actually answered the core of Bussard2's original question yet (though I think Kintaro was getting really close).

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong Bussard but I think this is what you're getting at:

 

The stats given are:

 

Aircraft Destroyed:

Spitfire IIb. Player damage: 44%

Spitfire IIb. Player damage: 100%

Hurricane IIb. Player damage: 98%

Blenheim IV Late. Player damage 52%

 

Aircraft Damaged:

Spitfire IIb. Player damage: 44%

Hurricane IIb. Player damage: 98%

 

As far as I know, all the aircraft under "Aircraft Destroyed" are supposed to be all the aircraft that were destroyed during the mission and had been damaged by the player. All the aircraft under "Aircraft Damaged" are supposed to be aircraft that were not destroyed during the mission but did take damage from the player. It isn't possible for an aircraft to be both destroyed and not destroyed at the same time. Therefore there should be no possible way for the same aircraft to be listed under both of these sections at once.

 

There are at least four possibilities for this odd report I can think of:

1). These sections don't actually mean what it looks like they do. In this case some clarification from TFS would be needed.

2). There is an actual bug here. These 2 planes under "damaged" actually are referring to the exact same planes that look like them under "destroyed". If this is the case and "damaged" means not destroyed then this is a bug.

3). "Aircraft Damaged" just means damaged regardless of weather the aircraft was destroyed or not. In this case there is still a bug but it's not that the 44% and 98% did show up under "Damaged", it's that the 100% and 52% didn't show up under "Damaged".

4). Bussard damaged 2 separate Spitfires at exactly 44% and 2 separate Hurricanes at exactly 98% and one of each crashed and one of each survived.

 

Right now I would put my money on possibility 2. Though 3 seems plausible as well. 1 seems weird and 4 seems an unbelievably unlikely coincidence.

[BENKOE]

Why not? It fits perfectly to Virtual Reality (a.k.a. VR?).

[Bussard_x]

It's a double count. Here is another example, it's a YouTube-video from DunkzGam1ng. 

First destroying a Hurricane at 15:07:46 (see clock in the 109), but in first attempt also slightly damaging a friendly aircraft, which is later on destroyed by enemy, 10 seconds before the hurri. 

 

A 2nd hurri is fatally damaged but is destroyed at 15:19, player already on the way to home base. So the 2 damaged aircraft on the list are later on "destroyed", so should not be shown on the damaged list any more. Note: belly landed aircraft are considered as destroyed.

   

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Bussard2

[jcole]

I’m still confused……there’s no consensus, so there’s no real understanding of how the scoring works…….

Edited April 13, 2023 by jcole

[343KKT_Kintaro]

1 hour ago, jcole said:

I’m still confused……there’s no consensus, so there’s no real understanding of how the scoring works…….

 

 

What's so difficult to understand about "Aircraft destroyed / 16:58:11 Spitfire IIb - Player damage: 44%"?

 

At timing 16:58:11 one Spitfire IIb was destroyed. Out of the damage that was necessary to get that Spit destroyed, the player contributed at 44% and the 56% left has been done by others.

 

I see no problem with reading the stats in the game because there's no problem with them.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by 343KKT_Kintaro
LoL

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

For me there is clearly something happening that counts some of the destroyed aircraft as only destroyed and others as destroyed and damaged. Always has been this way offline (online it splits the damage done among the players). 

 

But I guess some, like myself, are not bright enough to understand what is really going on? 

It's like Schrödinger aircraft being damaged. 

They are at the same time destroyed and not destroyed. 

Just the real gifted can see there is no problem...

 

 

[Bussard_x]

What still is unclear to me is what makes an aircraft 2% damaged. I guess a few hits will cause this. The spitfire that shot down the 109 should have the remaining 98%. In case of a destroyed aircraft it should always add up to 100%. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Bussard2

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Why "in case of a destroyed aircraft"? THOSE stats mentioned a DAMAGED aircraft, NOT A DESTROYED AIRCRAFT. Thus, whatever the total damage it got, 2% of it was caused by the player. As simple as that. Simply read the infos as they are given, there's no need to complicate things more than necessary.

[Volant_Eagle]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:47 AM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

What's so difficult to understand about "Aircraft destroyed / 16:58:11 Spitfire IIb - Player damage: 44%"?

 

At timing 16:58:11 one Spitfire IIb was destroyed. Out of the damage that was necessary to get that Spit destroyed, the player contributed at 44% and the 56% left has been done by others.

 

I see no problem with reading the stats in the game because there's no problem with them.

 

 

I'm not sure what part or parts of the stats jcole is confused about because he didn't specify. But I don't think interpreting the individual lines (at least for destroyed aircraft) is most peoples' problem. I agree with you that "Aircraft destroyed / 16:58:11 Spitfire IIb - Player damage: 44%" is relatively straight forward and easy to understand. I think improvements could be made here but I don't think anything is broken with this particular stat. However, the main problem first brought up in this thread is not what each individual line means. The main problem being noticed is that some lines from the "Aircraft Destroyed" section are being duplicated down in the "Aircraft Damaged" section. Regardless of what the individual lines mean they shouldn't be duplicated like this. It just doesn't make any sense. What's even worse is there seems to be no consistency with the duplication. Some planes are duplicated and others aren't. In my mind this has to be a glitch of some sort.

 

What the individual lines mean under the "Aircraft Damage" section is another story altogether. I was initially in complete agreement with your assessment of what these lines mean from your posts here:

On 3/18/2023 at 10:46 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

At the end of the mision, some aircraft made it, not that they necessarily went back to their airfields, but they weren't counted as destroyed when you stopped the mission.

 

Out of those that made it, at least two of them were damaged by you:

 

"Hurricane IIb . Player damage: 98%": on this specific damaged Hurri, 2% of the damage was caused by other planes and 98% of the damage came from your attacks (bullets, shells, bombs, accidental collisions, on-purpose collisions... or whatever things you made so that the aircraft ended up receiving the damage it received).

 

Spitfire IIb . Player damage: 44%: on this specific damaged Spitfire, 56% of the damage was caused by other planes and 44% of the damage came from your attacks (bullets, shells, bombs, accidental collisions, on-purpose collisions... or whatever things you made so that the aircraft ended up receiving the damage it received).

 

 

 

and here:

On 4/13/2023 at 3:54 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Why "in case of a destroyed aircraft"? THOSE stats mentioned a DAMAGED aircraft, NOT A DESTROYED AIRCRAFT. Thus, whatever the total damage it got, 2% of it was caused by the player. As simple as that. Simply read the infos as they are given, there's no need to complicate things more than necessary.

This was also how I thought the "damaged" stat worked. (Note: Although I think you made your points clearly, I think you missed Bussard's point with the first post and the aircraft of question in the 2nd post is a destroyed aircraft -it's being falsely listed as only damaged.)

 

However, I got to thinking about this stat and did some simple tests. What I found proved that this can't be how this stat works. If your explanation is right, (which was also exactly how I thought until just recently) then anytime a player damages an aircraft, whether it's with 1 bullet or 1,000 bullets, if that aircraft survives and doesn't receive any damage from anyone else, then that aircraft would have to show up in that player's stats as damaged 100%. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty certain this is what you were implying.

 

This is super easy to test. What I did was fly the "bomber intercept - channel" quick mission and set my fighter formation to 1 (so I'm alone) and the bombers to 'empty' (not necessary but it eliminates the possibility of the bombers accidently shooting each other). I then went through the formation and lightly peppered a few of the bombers with .303s. I damaged each to varying amounts but was intentionally far short of shooting any down. I then exited the mission and the stats always listed each bomber as "He 111 H-2. Player damage: 50%".

 

This was very interesting and I now have no idea what this stat means. I was definitely the only one causing damage to all of these planes. So all (100%) of the damage each plane received was definitely from me. I thought this should mean that the "player damage" would then be 100%, but clearly it doesn't work that way. On the other hand, it's also obvious that the damage percentage is not referring to actual level of damage like some others might think. I hit each bomber with varying degrees of ammunition. Some barely got touched, others received a few solid bursts. If this stat actually was an indication of how bad the damage was, then it should have been something like; 2%, 14%, 8%, 23%, etc. Instead I always got; 50%, 50%, 50%, 50%, etc. The percentage didn't vary at all even though the bombers were definitely damaged to varying degrees.

 

If anyone has insights into how the stats work or might work for damaged aircraft, I'd appreciate the knowledge/guesses. My best guess right now is that the method Kintaro explained is a component of how this stat works, but it's not the whole picture. Maybe it accounts for half the stat? Maybe the stat is capped at 50% in some situations? Other factors must play a part but I have no clue what those factors are.

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Sorry Volant_Eagle, I haven't the time to respond to all the points you treated, I'll do it soon, no worries, a quick one nevertheless: the duplicated percentages might be coincidences. I'd need to double-check all of this, obviously.