Flying in formation

[Knarley-Bob]

I'm thinking that anyone who gets proficient at flying "IN" formation ( with AI ) should be "Mentioned in Dispatches" or at least get an "Awrad of Achievement."

 

So far, I can fly WITH the formation, but definitely NOT in formation.

 

That's my vote..................?

 

KB

Edited March 3, 2023 by Knarley-Bob

[ST_Catchov]

3 hours ago, Knarley-Bob said:

"Awrad of Achievement."

 

It's a nice typo. Kinda suits it. ?

[ROCKET_KNUT]

Formation with ai??? ? Try humans, they´re far better at it, usually... ? 

 

 

[Zeev]

I always try to fly in formation with AI.

More over, I do it with Playstation controller. 
So I need a double achiemvenet for this ^_^

 

I my opinion, the combat in game is my second priority of enjoymnet, what I enjoy the most is taxiing, taking off and landing and taxiing back to garage, and formation flying. 
And because the formation flying can be exhausting especially with the game AI, I hate long missions, especially on the new bigger maps.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Zeev

[Knarley-Bob]

11 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

It's a nice typo. Kinda suits it. ?

You are right, I'm not going to fix it either......LOL

[R33GZ]

20 hours ago, Knarley-Bob said:

I'm thinking that anyone who gets proficient at flying "IN" formation ( with AI ) should be "Mentioned in Dispatches" or at least get an "Awrad of Achievement."

 

So far, I can fly WITH the formation, but definitely NOT in formation.

 

That's my vote..................?

 

KB

If the AI was able to fly with a constant engine setting it wouldn't be so hard. Took me a while to realize that the whole flight was racing and then idling their throttle the whole way.

 

I don't even bother being anything except flight lead now

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, R33GZ said:

If the AI was able to fly with a constant engine setting it wouldn't be so hard. Took me a while to realize that the whole flight was racing and then idling their throttle the whole way.

 

This...

 

17 hours ago, ROCKET_KNUT said:

Formation with ai??? ? Try humans, they´re far better at it, usually... ? 

 

...and this...

 

 

[Knarley-Bob]

I kinda thought, by not being the leader, I'd learn how things are done??

 

I've never claimed to be all THAT bright?

 

KB

[ROCKET_KNUT]

On 3/4/2023 at 12:49 PM, DD_Arthur said:

 

A formation of seven a/c surely is something else. Plus, it´s I-16s, very agile, not an aweful amount of stability.

Even if the leader is flying as smooth as silk the outer wingmen will be struggeling.

Except of course your team is the Red Arrows or the Blue Angels. ?

 

Flying in formation with an ai leader for me is always a pita. They seem to rather use switches instead of sticks and throttles. 

Inputs seem to be either on or off, max or zero, neutral or full deflection. I find that very annoying.

 

There is a server up though, where you can practise formation flying with ai, forgot its name, shame on me.

Apart from the change of direction, they fly at a constant speed an altitude over long distances so you can train your muscle memory.

Cheers 

[LLv24_SukkaVR]

I'm pretty good at formation flying in IL-2 though i don't do it very often, but the best formation flying exercise is aerial refueling in DCS ? You need to stay in one place for a few minutes to suck that fluid inside you.

[BraveSirRobin]

Flying with AI is ok for a loose formation.  But you need to fly with a human if you want to get really tight.

[Knarley-Bob]

5 hours ago, R33GZ said:

If the AI was able to fly with a constant engine setting it wouldn't be so hard. Took me a while to realize that the whole flight was racing and then idling their throttle the whole way.

 

I don't even bother being anything except flight lead now

Yup, you're running like a bandy-legged rooster to catch up, and then swerving all over not to run into them. I do real good for a while, then not so much. Tried switching to auto pilot, good grief, firewall to idle, back and forth. SO, I fly WITH the formation. I'll never get "Mentioned in Dispatches" OR get a Certificate of Achievement, but I'm getting there and back. And sometimes, I even get to blow something up!!!

[AndyJWest]

1 hour ago, LLv24_SukkaVR said:

I'm pretty good at formation flying in IL-2 though i don't do it very often, but the best formation flying exercise is aerial refueling in DCS ? You need to stay in one place for a few minutes to suck that fluid inside you.

 

Air to air refuelling in DCS is tricky, certainly. It would be a lot harder though if the AI had the same approach to maintaining speed that IL-2 GB AI does. 

 

 

[56RAF_Stickz]

18 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Flying with AI is ok for a loose formation.  But you need to fly with a human if you want to get really tight.

he also managed that behind me for some 20minutes all way to target. And I dont have auto level as a control to make it easier for him, also without voice comms. Mind you, if I had known he was that close I would possibly had to go and sit down, put cat on my lap and shut my eyes.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Formation leader is the hardest part, so few flyers who can maintain a fixed climb rate or keep an altitude, especially during turns. 

 

Where you going boss?  See something?  Nope.  Than why are you diving?  Oh.

[Yogiflight]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:27 PM, R33GZ said:

If the AI was able to fly with a constant engine setting it wouldn't be so hard. Took me a while to realize that the whole flight was racing and then idling their throttle the whole way.

This, plus flying turns in formation. Flying turns inside a formation is more challenging than fighting with enemy fighters.

And since one of the last updates the climbing of the AI after takeoff looks more than annoying. They are constantly wobbling up and down for dozens of meters.

[Crocogator]

On 3/5/2023 at 5:57 AM, R33GZ said:

If the AI was able to fly with a constant engine setting it wouldn't be so hard. Took me a while to realize that the whole flight was racing and then idling their throttle the whole way.

 

I don't even bother being anything except flight lead now

 

Well that has to do with managing the power timers...

[Dragon1-1]

Can't they be limited to max continuous when cruising around? They wouldn't need to manage their timers that way.

[BlitzPig_EL]

All you can do is set their airspeed at waypoints, not the throttle/prop settings.

[Lusekofte]

I put it on autopilot at long stretches. And my auto pilot use throttle and pitch parallel 

worst ai I ever fly formation with is choppers in DCs low altitude. They stop and gain heights and you overshoot them constantly in bad weather you loose them 

[Knarley-Bob]

AND...with all that going on, WHO the hell is looking for the enemy? My PLANE! It's spouts off about engaging the enemy, describes where it is, so I can look there to spot it! At this point in time, I have no intention of engaging, I don't even know where the bugger is. And of course, the wing I'm flying with don't pay any attention to my plane that is spouting off. There are of course times, when I see them off in the distance, I have no way of letting anyone know about it, until, you guessed it......My plane sees them.?

 

Being flight leader? Thats a hoot, no one in the flight is going to listen to you anyway. Best if you can, use them for bait, or cover. They have to be there for something.........

 

Now that's entertainment, I don't care what you say........?

 

KB

Edited March 6, 2023 by Knarley-Bob

[R33GZ]

On 3/7/2023 at 10:50 AM, Knarley-Bob said:

AND...with all that going on, WHO the hell is looking for the enemy? My PLANE! It's spouts off about engaging the enemy, describes where it is, so I can look there to spot it! At this point in time, I have no intention of engaging, I don't even know where the bugger is. And of course, the wing I'm flying with don't pay any attention to my plane that is spouting off. There are of course times, when I see them off in the distance, I have no way of letting anyone know about it, until, you guessed it......My plane sees them.?

 

Being flight leader? Thats a hoot, no one in the flight is going to listen to you anyway. Best if you can, use them for bait, or cover. They have to be there for something.........

 

Now that's entertainment, I don't care what you say........?

 

KB

Hahaha... too true ?

 

On escort missions, as flight lead, I tend to leave it up to number 2 to lead the flight. I fly racetrack in front of the formation maybe 5kft above and try to draw the interceptors into a fight... hoping some of my flight might break ranks and help a lowly comrade in arms lol

[LLv24_SukkaVR]

On 3/5/2023 at 3:10 AM, AndyJWest said:

 

Air to air refuelling in DCS is tricky, certainly. It would be a lot harder though if the AI had the same approach to maintaining speed that IL-2 GB AI does. 

 

 

 

I find AAR in Hornet pretty easy. After that first successful refuel you get that "oh that's how it's done" -moment and from then on, it gets easier and easier. But that's just refueling from a basket, haven't tried refueling from a boom but will soon have to learn that once F-15E is out.

 

But in IL-2 i'm not even thinking about flying in formation with the AI. Sudden moves, changing directions etc by flight leader without any prior warning makes it impossible. I sometimes do formation flying in DCS aerobatic server and it's possible thing to do without any comms, because human AI makes so slow and soft movements. AI can't do that. Even AAR gets tricky if tanker changes to a new waypoint and makes a sudden move.

[Dragon1-1]

IRL, the tanker will give you a heads-up when it begins to enter turn, and it will fly a standard rate turn so you can look at your clock to figure out when it'll roll back out. No such luck in DCS currently. 

 

That said, AI in neither sim is particularly good or realistic when it comes to formation flying. The worst thing is how they're apparently telepathic when it comes to maneuvers, and they use no comms or signals in turns. IRL there are specific procedures for maneuvering in formation, and the lead needs to announce everything but the smallest check turns ahead of time. 

[blitze]

On 3/4/2023 at 5:20 AM, ROCKET_KNUT said:

Formation with ai??? ? Try humans, they´re far better at it, usually... ?

Yes they are - the AI is over zealous on throttle and pitch control.  Seems to be a case of full or no throttle rather than slight increments from cruise settings.  Gives me fatigue watching my pilot's throttle on Auto Pilot in VR especially at 8x time increase. ?

 

When I fly to tight to my LHS AI flight buddy - he usually gets nervous and departs formation.

[IckyATLAS]

I also felt when flying with an AI leader that he uses perfectly the full power of its engine (Radiators etc.) to have the best climb performance, and this makes sometimes difficult to catch up as we generally spare more the engine and are less optimal. This depends on the speed profile you have set and the trajectory profile too with the waypoints.