Please record your flights so you can provide the tracks needed for the devs to address the 'magic bullet' issue

[Denum]

32 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

It is indeed, we can just continue to watch online player numbers drop ??

 

It's not the damage model that's having players leave.

 

Apollo is as busy as ever. We have slightly more players online on average then this time last year. So I'm not really seeing your point. 

 

And frankly. If the axis players are leaving because their "yeet you to Jesus" guns aren't a one hit kill anymore. Well...

 

I'm sorry but that is not a loss to the community. They were only playing because they had a huge advantage. Not because they liked the game. They'll move to the next game that caters to them. 

 

 

No game is going to get this perfect.

 

On average allied aircraft get PK deaths at a higher rate then axis. The Spitfire is awful. You'll take HE to the wing and die.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Denum

[6./ZG26_Custard]

39 minutes ago, Denum said:

I'm sorry but that is not a loss to the community

What a narrow-minded view, every player that we lose is a loss to the community. I do know that the popular servers in the EU time zone are far less populated than say a year ago. It's an observable fact. The damage model ammunition values, FM characteristics ballistics all need a second look. We are currently flying on easy mode, particularly when you look at score boards on a Friday night and you have people with 30 aerial victories in around an hour. 

[Denum]

The two popular EU servers have ceased (temporarily) to exist due to internal issues. That isn't player related. I don't blame EU players not wanting to fly on NA servers. It's the same reason I don't play FvP anymore.

 

The game is in the best state it's ever been. The only players struggling with that are the ones that benefited from a broken DM. 

 

You think for a hot second having a FM that punishes cheese flying isn't going to push MORE axis mains away? No more wobbling? No more full power stalls? Guys would lose their bloody mind. 

 

 

No one is farming 30 kills in an hour. If they are. That says more about the opponents then the player with 30 kills. 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Denum

[6./ZG26_Custard]

13 minutes ago, Denum said:

The game is in the best state it's ever been. The only players struggling with that are the ones that benefited from a broken DM. 

What I find unbelievable is you seriously believe this, incredible. 

[LukeFF]

Let's watch it with some of the personal comments.

[Denum]

13 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

What I find unbelievable is you seriously believe this, incredible. 

Well let's look at the facts I suppose.

 

Prior to the DM revision it was pretty rare I could fly axis because it was often the team with more players. More often then not it was stacked. 

 

Post DM update many of these players left citing the damage model as the reason. 

 

I fly alot of axis now because allied is popular. I can't help but notice there are several axis squadrons now flying Allied frequently also.

 

So one could safely conclude...

 

 

Anyway. 

I'm having a good time online. So are the people I play with. 

 

I'm not concerned. My only complaint is I'm flying Axis a bit too often for my liking. 

 

Jug is love. Jug is life!

[Enceladus828]

The issue with a simple belly landing in a field being fatal was first reported on November 7th 2021, just over a week after Update 4.605 was released. Before that, there was no issue with magic bullets, simple belly landings being fatal, a collision with an object causing minimal damage being fatal (heck, all the pilots involved in the aerial rammings on April 7th 1945 by the Sonderkommando Elbe would have been instantly killed), and iirc ineffective gunners. 

 

For the next update the devs should just take what the parameters were for pilot health during a belly landing, collision, plane getting hit by bullets (save for the 'health cheat') in Update 4.604 and insert them back into the game. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

29 minutes ago, Denum said:

So one could safely conclude..

The armour penetration changes have created the magic bullet phenomenon, particularly when it concerns larger aircraft.  

 

We can also conclude that online servers are not as populated as they were a year ago.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

14 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

no issue with magic bullets

Unfortunately at this point many don't care if as long as doesn't affect them. Most will be happy that they are Knocking aircraft out of the skies like there is no tomorrow. 

[ACG_Cass]

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The armour penetration changes have created the magic bullet phenomenon, particularly when it concerns larger aircraft.  

Can you confirm which specific changes you are citing here?

 

There have been a number of updates to the ballistics, all of which were based on evidenced data and testing.

Edited March 8, 2023 by ACG_Cass

[6./ZG26_Custard]

22 minutes ago, ACG_Cass said:

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

concerns larger aircraft.  

Can you confirm which specific changes you are citing here

Cass, I have has so many back and forth conversations with you here and on the test forum. You know my views very well and consequently I know yours very well too. I'll just continue to watch the game lose players as long as one group are happy. This isn't an isolated few voices there are lots of people noticing it now.

Edit-if you want to talk further happy to do so in DM's

Edited March 8, 2023 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[69th_Panp]

We the (69th) fly as a group online MP, mostly the servers that run dynamic mission.

We are not experts or nubs and our squad rankings are usually in the top 10

Most of our squad topics when playing is the ridicules amount of PK that are happening now. 

Not just with fighter but also with PE2 / A 20 bombers, actually any plane now.

Pk have at least doubled since the ballistic penetration were changed.

A few sessions ago I flew 6 missions and was PKed 5 of the six, another squad mate was PK 4 out of 6. at most before I would maybe be PK 1 time and I did say Maybe.

 

we know tactics and fly smart, but we have NEVER been PK so frequently as we are now with this latest change.

If I had known we were going to revert to a war thunder style DM, I would not have bought all the modules and spent 100 of dollars on this Game. Notice I said Game I don't even refer to it as a sim anymore since the last change. 

i see no future here with this aspect and dont believe I will be spending money again untill this gets checked and fixed.

[=RS=EnvyC]

Reality is often disappointing.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

35 minutes ago, =RS=EnvyC said:

Reality is often disappointing.

 We are not dealing with reality. 

[FuriousMeow]

Ballistics didn't change. Penetration didn't change. The pilots are just no longer up-armored. Actually aiming at the pilot and hitting them results in a PK now, not shrugging the rounds off as they did before.

 

Out of all of this there are no tests and validation that something is wrong, just feelings. It is arcadey for a plane to get all shot out from under the meat sack, now its far closer to how it would be for mid to late war armaments.

Edited March 9, 2023 by FuriousMeow

[6./ZG26_Custard]

24 minutes ago, FuriousMeow said:

Ballistics didn't change.

I'm not even sure if ballistics have any effect. 

25 minutes ago, FuriousMeow said:

Penetration didn't change.

They did. 

[354thFG_Rails]

43 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

 We are not dealing with reality. 

Then why don’t we just give all plane the ability to one shot everyone so then no one can complain? What’s the point of trying to simulate combat then?

[=RS=EnvyC]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

 We are not dealing with reality. 

Quite right, the .50s aren't quite as effective as they should be per AARs, we need more fires and more pen.

[=621=Samikatz]

I don't think the current situation is perfect, but I would never want to return to the iron tails we had before, fighters shrugging off dozens of hits to the rear with nothing to damage back there was ridiculous and we had players completely ignoring they were under attack and getting away with it because of it. Internal components like hydraulic lines for landing gear need to be modelled and coolant hits need to be more of an immediate threat, along with the increased fire risk of API rounds

[-SF-Disarray]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any data supporting this 'massive spike' in PK events following the last revision to the DM? I've been kind of watching this thread for a while now, and haven't seen anyone post anything that shows this trend. Surely such a monumental shift in PK events should be easy to demonstrate in some kind of data. And if it cannot be demonstrated, well that kind of says all that needs to be said on this matter.

[the_emperor]

5 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

components like hydraulic lines for landing gear need to be modelled and coolant hits need to be more of an immediate threat

I dont think that will ever come, since it would probably need a rework of all existing planes. And having a fuel system with individuell  fuel (drop) tanks was tried to implement (just the tanks not the fuel lines itself). And it was not possible.

It was chosen from the start not to model certain systems ( fluid circuits, after cooling systems, pneumatic-, hydraulic-, electrical-, landing gear locking systems to name a few) and to go for an more arcadish DM. It will probably stay that way but still will be refined. But its complexity is very limited.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

6 hours ago, -SF-Disarray said:

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any data supporting this 'massive spike' in PK events following the last revision to the DM? I've been kind of watching this thread for a while now, and haven't seen anyone post anything that shows this trend. Surely such a monumental shift in PK events should be easy to demonstrate in some kind of data. And if it cannot be demonstrated, well that kind of says all that needs to be said on this matter.

This data is in sorites logs , many multiplayer servers are collecting this information and it is open for everyone.

Edited March 9, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[BBAS_Tiki_Joe]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

This data is in sorites logs , many multiplayer servers are collecting this information and it is open for everyone.

 

I don't think there is a PK stat though, You could look through every kill individually and work out that something was a pilot kill but I think it would be really hard for the avg. user to gather any info from in a workable way. It looks like whoever has control over the server stats would have to program that in to get the info.

Edited March 9, 2023 by BBAS_Tiki_Joe

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

26 minutes ago, BBAS_Tiki_Joe said:

 

I don't think there is a PK stat though, You could look through every kill individually and work out that something was a pilot kill but I think it would be really hard for the avg. user to gather any info from in a workable way. It looks like whoever has control over the server stats would have to program that in to get the info.

If first damage  entry in the  log is 100% pilot wounded , it is pk.

This statistics could be also correlated if plane was damaged before and how many times,  before 100% pilot wound. Sometimes it's just pk ,  other times  pk is after plane took significant amount of damage.  

For automatic gathering the data you need write a script and output data into spreadsheet.

Edited March 9, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Wardog5711]

OK, lets keep personal stats out of the public discussion. 
I've hidden the previous post.

This thread is already taking up way to much admin time and it's close to outliving it's usefulness.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Wardog5711

[=RS=EnvyC]

1 hour ago, BBAS_Tiki_Joe said:

 

I don't think there is a PK stat though, You could look through every kill individually and work out that something was a pilot kill but I think it would be really hard for the avg. user to gather any info from in a workable way. It looks like whoever has control over the server stats would have to program that in to get the info.

 

Revolves has done that actually, Allied planes have a higher percentage of PKs than Germans. You can see it for yourself on the CB stats page, G14 causing a whopping ~68% of PKs versus the P51s ~53%

 

Also these aren't personal stats, they're global.

 

G14:

 

 

P51:

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by =RS=EnvyC

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

1 hour ago, Wardog5711 said:

OK, lets keep personal stats out of the public discussion. 
I've hidden the previous post.

This thread is already taking up way to much admin time and it's close to outliving it's usefulness.

Before it outlives it's usefulness, can you tell us if the devs are looking into this or not?  Thanks in advance!  Cheers!

[BBAS_Tiki_Joe]

1 hour ago, =RS=EnvyC said:

 

Revolves has done that actually, Allied planes have a higher percentage of PKs than Germans. You can see it for yourself on the CB stats page, G14 causing a whopping ~68% of PKs versus the P51s ~53%

 

Also these aren't personal stats, they're global.

 

G14:

 

 

P51:

 

 

Nice, I've never seen that info. I'd be interested to see the # of PK's total both sides combined compared to pre-patch to see how much they went up if any. I never thought of the PK issue as a Axis Vs. Allied thing, I fly both and feel like the PK amount seems high all around no matter what side I'm flying, Both in SP and MP. I'm honestly not a historian or know what was realistic at the time. My feelings very well could just be that I've played this game too much pre-patch and got used to that, and then the change just seems jarring. Just stinks that I can't seem to make it 6 missions in on SP without getting pilot sniped, whereas in the past I was doing like 20+ missions before I'd die on my iron man runs. Just stuff that you notice with 3k+ hours on the game. 

[Wardog5711]

@RNAS10_Mitchell

Yes. 

And what I was told is:

That is a side effect of removing the pilot health buff.

If there are clear evidences of bugged ammo or armor, we would gladly check their bug reports on that, but generally armament and protection are working as intended.

[FuriousMeow]

41 minutes ago, Wardog5711 said:

@RNAS10_Mitchell

Yes. 

And what I was told is:

That is a side effect of removing the pilot health buff.

If there are clear evidences of bugged ammo or armor, we would gladly check their bug reports on that, but generally armament and protection are working as intended.

 

[-SF-Disarray]

5 hours ago, =RS=EnvyC said:

 

Revolves has done that actually, Allied planes have a higher percentage of PKs than Germans. You can see it for yourself on the CB stats page, G14 causing a whopping ~68% of PKs versus the P51s ~53%

 

Also these aren't personal stats, they're global.

 

G14:

 

 

P51:

 

Well, there is half the data. Now all that is needed is the pre-patch numbers and we can actually assess the facts as they are found rather than some random anecdotes from certain quarters. 

[=RS=EnvyC]

4 hours ago, BBAS_Tiki_Joe said:

 

Nice, I've never seen that info. I'd be interested to see the # of PK's total both sides combined compared to pre-patch to see how much they went up if any. I never thought of the PK issue as a Axis Vs. Allied thing, I fly both and feel like the PK amount seems high all around no matter what side I'm flying, Both in SP and MP. I'm honestly not a historian or know what was realistic at the time. My feelings very well could just be that I've played this game too much pre-patch and got used to that, and then the change just seems jarring. Just stinks that I can't seem to make it 6 missions in on SP without getting pilot sniped, whereas in the past I was doing like 20+ missions before I'd die on my iron man runs. Just stuff that you notice with 3k+ hours on the game. 

I believe Revolves did get it in before the patch and Rails mentioned it's a delta of about 3-4%. I've only presented it as such as blue players get really bent out of shape one the topic despite the fact they're dishing out more PKs than Allied planes are by a not insignificant margin.

 

I really don't care enough to go digging, I'm really just copy/pasting data from discord since others aren't. Figured I'd at least contribute something other than dunking on old mate.

 

As for historical accuracy, there are plentiful amounts of AARs from the USAAF that end in "no chute observed", given the extremely high death rate of German pilots it's a pretty solid conclusion they were getting shot up in the pit quite regularly. Of course there's no exact way to tell but it's a very very likely scenario. Manouvering planes that go limp and no chute observed? Pilot got hit for sure.

Edited March 9, 2023 by =RS=EnvyC

[6./ZG26_Custard]

What about bombers, I hear plenty about fighters but what about the larger aircraft. I'd also like to know what, if any ballistics effects are at play here because currently there doesn't seem to much, if any ballistics. When you are flying straight and level and the cocky fighter jock just rolls up behind you without a care in the world and the magic bullet travels through the entire length of the fuselage, goes through multiple systems, (Cargo if you are carrying it) armour, amazingly missing the rest of the crew but one shots the pilot. It's not the pilot kills that is the problem it's the one shot instant death where the bullets seem to travel in a laser beam fashion.  

       

[=RS=EnvyC]

Show it then.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

4 hours ago, Wardog5711 said:

@RNAS10_Mitchell

Yes. 

And what I was told is:

That is a side effect of removing the pilot health buff.

If there are clear evidences of bugged ammo or armor, we would gladly check their bug reports on that, but generally armament and protection are working as intended.

Thanks Wardog. Appreciate the response.  So if ammo/armor are working as designed (effect on aircraft), would seem to suggest maybe the pilot health might be the cause (or perhaps bullet dispersion) of the problem? Any plans on looking at either of those aspects of the issue?

Thanks again!

Cheers!

Edited March 9, 2023 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[6./ZG26_Custard]

13 minutes ago, =RS=EnvyC said:

Show it then.

There are multiple people reporting this just look at the forum.  

[=RS=EnvyC]

25 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

There are multiple people reporting this just look at the forum.  

Then it shouldn't be too much to actually show what you're talking about then.

 

Specifically video, stat damage log and schematic of the bomber in question showing armour values and mathematically showing why it shouldn't be possible.

Edited March 9, 2023 by =RS=EnvyC

[6./ZG26_Custard]

13 minutes ago, =RS=EnvyC said:

Specifically video, stat damage log and schematic of the bomber in question showing armour values and mathematically showing why it shouldn't be possible

I tell you what, why don't you do it then you can prove me wrong. Why don't you mathematically show me where I am wrong. That'll be a nice little project for you 

[LukeFF]

Last chance to knock it off with the personal comments, or this topic gets the Alt-F4 treatment.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

5 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Last chance to knock it off with the personal comments, or this topic gets the Alt-F4 treatment.

Rather than punishing everyone, maybe just target the offenders? Just a thought.  ✌️