Performance difference between G6-Late and G-14?

[jamesBisonet]

From what I known, the G-6 late and the G-14 were identical to each other, and this is reflected in the game with the G-6 late having the option to equip with DB605 AM ( DB605A with MW-50 ) and Erla-Haube. However, when I checked the stats page, it shows that the G-6 late with the exception of speed, outperforms the G-14 in climb rate and turn performance, so I'm curious to know more about why this is the case and if there were any minor changes between the variants.
Thanks

[sevenless]

7 hours ago, jamesBisonet said:

From what I known, the G-6 late and the G-14 were identical to each other, and this is reflected in the game with the G-6 late having the option to equip with DB605 AM ( DB605A with MW-50 ) and Erla-Haube. However, when I checked the stats page, it shows that the G-6 late with the exception of speed, outperforms the G-14 in climb rate and turn performance, so I'm curious to know more about why this is the case and if there were any minor changes between the variants.
Thanks

 

I guess this little article helps:

 

The sweet spot? How Bf109G-6 Late fits into IL-2: Great Battles – Stormbirds

[FTC_DerSheriff]

7 hours ago, jamesBisonet said:

From what I known, the G-6 late and the G-14 were identical to each other, and this is reflected in the game with the G-6 late having the option to equip with DB605 AM ( DB605A with MW-50 ) and Erla-Haube. However, when I checked the stats page, it shows that the G-6 late with the exception of speed, outperforms the G-14 in climb rate and turn performance, so I'm curious to know more about why this is the case and if there were any minor changes between the variants.
Thanks

 

 

And besides the stats page is not really  a good place to compare aircraft since the stats page often just shows one power setting. Often just combat power.

The G-6 is slightly lighter than the G-14 but also slightly draggier due to the forced radio. Other than that they are in fact very very close in performance.

[[TWB]80hd]

On 2/26/2023 at 6:54 AM, sevenless said:

 

I guess this little article helps:

 

The sweet spot? How Bf109G-6 Late fits into IL-2: Great Battles – Stormbirds

 

Do yourself a favor and read Shamrock's entire article that sevenless shared here, but to put a fine point on it, ShamrockOneFive writes:

 

"If we compare the Bf109G-6 versus the Bf109G-6 Late versus the Bf109G-14 (itself a G-6 variant that attempted to reconcile a series of modifications into a single production version) a surprising picture forms. Without MW50, the G-6 Late is essentially identical to the G-6 in performance being off by only a marginal amount. Meanwhile, the heavier G-14 out of MW50 is actually slower at sea level and at 7,000 meters than the other two versions and it has a lower climb rate. The G-6 Late brings in the speed with the MW50 putting it just a few kilometers an hour slower than the G-14 while also making use of the MW50, however, it also has a nearly 2 second advantage in maximum performance turn rate over the G-14."

 

 

Go dogfight a low-fuel Tempest in a low-fuel G6 Late/MW50/Erla Haube, then dogfight the same guy in a G-14... your mileage may vary, depending on how you fly, but you get into a rolling scissors or the patented Tempest 90 degree TIE Interceptor loop climb fight, Full emergency on the uphill, IL-2 Sturmoflaps to close the circle on the downhill (adjust as needed) and the G6 Late delivers sterling performance.  It's lumpy, but it claws E back as fast as it bleeds it while the MW50 holds.  Related, I will say that I gave the MK108 a solid month, and it's garbage.  Pretty much any one-and-done hit with the 30mm, when you get them, would have been a fight-ender with the 20mm.  I recommend just just taking the 151/20.  More ammo, far better trajectory and harmonics with the nose guns, and a hell of a lot less disappointment when you're buzzsawing stuff rather than dodging the flaps you blow off the plane in front of you.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by [TWB]80hd

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, [TWB]80hd said:

Related, I will say that I gave the MK108 a solid month, and it's garbage.

Just need more patience, give it a couple of months more, till the ballistic trajectory fully seats in. After a while, there is nothing more pleasant than one-shotting anything in the sky. Fire just the cannon, without the machine gun, otherwise it is harder to see where the shots land. Now I have reached a point where I get very frustrated by the waste of 20mm to get rid of opponents, plus it is harder for me now to target with 20mm being so used to the 30mm. I can down with 30mm as many plane as with 20mm or more, since you just need a couple of shots to torpedo your enemies.

 

1 hour ago, [TWB]80hd said:

the patented Tempest 90 degree TIE Interceptor loop climb fight, Full emergency on the uphill, IL-2 Sturmoflaps to close the circle on the downhill (adjust as needed)

Would you have any video of your technique? Which % of flaps do you put?

 

I am a huge Bf106 Late fan, it is very versatile, and very fun to dogfight, plus very capable. The best way to get a real challenge in SP, it is fighting alone against 4 Bf106-Late. They stick to your ass like no other fighters.

[[TWB]80hd]

21 hours ago, Youtch said:

Just need more patience, give it a couple of months more, till the ballistic trajectory fully seats in. After a while, there is nothing more pleasant than one-shotting anything in the sky. Fire just the cannon, without the machine gun, otherwise it is harder to see where the shots land. Now I have reached a point where I get very frustrated by the waste of 20mm to get rid of opponents, plus it is harder for me now to target with 20mm being so used to the 30mm. I can down with 30mm as many plane as with 20mm or more, since you just need a couple of shots to torpedo your enemies.

 

It's not hitting the target that is my problem, it's the fact that (depending on the airframe targeted), the MK108 performs inconsistently at best, and is downright trash at worst.  Sure, I have one-shot fighters with it, take a wing or engine/pilot, but no more so than happens with a handful .50s or a 20mm (of any nation).

 

https://combatbox.net/en/sortie/1992131/?tour=57

 

Here's a prime example from the last campaign on Combat Box... flew Axis the entire campaign, and if I was in a fighter, 90% of the time I had an MK108.  The fight I share here as a reference was a 1v1(+airfield defenses hahaha).  I get tapped by that 90mm HE, and then the Tempest rolls in.  Hits me with 4x 20mm AP (which doomed me in any case, as the rest of the fight was with a busted engine.

 

I immediately beat him in the E-fight, he tucks his little TIE Interceptor tail and scoots it back to his Bofors (the field AA in this campaign has a skill rating that is based on how much supply the field has, so the AA here wasn't hyper-accurate, probably mid-range, or I would have been dead).

 

So he dives through the smoke over some burning hangars (this is where I pick up the two parked planes on my way by), and I guess he thought he lost me or I disengaged due to damage, because he messed up and turned back in.  

I hit him with a pair of 30mm HE @ 14:03:57, and a 3rd follow-up right after. All of these were tail/wing root area hits, but at this point, it doesn't matter where I am hitting a single-engine fighter, I've just applied an obscene amount of explosives to his airframe, and overall integrity should have failed at this point.  But it didn't... instead, he manuevers cleanly and tries to flee to his field once again.  So, I hit him again, this time in the outer port wing.  It leaves a nice tidy hole one would expect from a 20mm HE, and he continues to manuever like nothing major is amiss. 

 

The 5th MK108 round appears to PK him, it was a fuselage hit, and in-game I wasn't even sure he was dead because other than a thin whisp of fuel or coolant, he just appeared to be a Tempest in a gentle dive. (I then disengaged and belly landed in some field when my glass DB 605 gave up the ghost)

 

Now, I am not trying to posit the above as indicative of every MK108 engagement, but instances like the one above are by no means a rarity either.  

 

Generally speaking, relative to the use of the MK108 in the above MP campaign: Spitfires crumble, Mosquitos crumble (either their engines light up or they literally blow in half), P-51s are a mixed bag... their flaps act like an ablative shield that's good for absorbing at least 1 MK108 each, but they definitely suffer from the same in-line engine woes that 109s do... usually 3 rounds of 30mm can put them down. (Anectdotally, I saw more P-51Ds with wings coming off than I did P-51Bs)  P-47s, P-38s, and Tempests could very often tank obscene amounts of 30mm rounds as noted above.

 

The MG 151/20 and the MG 131/13s, whether it's the AP mixed in or simply the much better muzzle velocity match, perform consistently better than the MK108.  The MK108 should be a high-skill requirement weapon (It is, getting hits with it, especially on a manuevering target, are much harder of course), but the trade-off should be that when you do hit, it's a fight ender 90% of the time.  That is absolutely not the case right now.

 

 

21 hours ago, Youtch said:

Would you have any video of your technique? Which % of flaps do you put?

 

I am a huge Bf106 Late fan, it is very versatile, and very fun to dogfight, plus very capable. The best way to get a real challenge in SP, it is fighting alone against 4 Bf106-Late. They stick to your ass like no other fighters.

 

I have a cussy Twitch stream to pull clips of drunken squad shenanigans from, but they are probably safe if you turn the sound off... the only issue is that since I am in VR, you can't always see the technochat very well for things like flaps... but, also at the office right now so I can't get any recordings... looked through my Twitch trash and could not remember when exactly we had some concentrated 109 G6 vs Tempest goat rodeos. 

 

I use a press/hold on my Warthog for flaps; in the 109 I usually only put in a very small amount, for a nudge, less than 10%,  up to 20% at high-ish speed (say to try to get the angle on someone firing at a buddy) but in a deck fight that gets low and slow, I will sometimes go north of that if the enemy plane is doing the same thing, but that's burning methanol the whole time for sure. Without MW50, I don't use flaps as aggressively.  I really only use them to tighten up a turn, rather than try to fly the plane like a helicopter, but some people are very skilled at the latter.

 

If I can find the specific Latte/Tempest 1v1 I remember vividly on Berloga, I will shoot it to you! 

[Youtch]

On 3/3/2023 at 7:48 PM, [TWB]80hd said:

immediately beat him in the E-fight, he tucks his little TIE Interceptor tail

Forgive my ignorance but what do you mean by E-fight and TIE interceptor tail?

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

E-fight = Energy fight.

 

TIE Fighter = A slur comparing the Tempest to the Imperial TIE Fighter from Star Wars, because many Luftwaffe proponents in sims cannot accept that an Allied aircraft can be competitive against their beloved Bf 109.

 

[Youtch]

Tempest are not that hard to deal with as long as you don t try to turn or run. While they perform quite well in turn rate and flat scissors, i am under the impression that they are far from being ideal on the vertical plane with rolling scissors.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Youtch

[[CPT]Crunch]

Don't like Tempests, stay out of their wading pool, anything 6,000 feet and below.  Not all that impressive above that, amazing how many 109's come down to fight, they just can't resist.  That Tempest isn't diving to escape you, he's going to butcher you if you follow.

[Bernard_IV]

You have to get above the Tempests, they struggle in the climb.  G6 Late with its lighter weight is the way to go.

[RossMarBow]

"Without MW50, the G-6 Late is essentially identical to the G-6 in performance being off by only a marginal amount. Meanwhile, the heavier G-14 out of MW50 is actually slower at sea level and at 7,000 meters than the other two versions and it has a lower climb rate. The G-6 Late brings in the speed with the MW50 putting it just a few kilometers an hour slower than the G-14 while also making use of the MW50, however, it also has a nearly 2 second advantage in maximum performance turn rate over the G-14."

 

 

Don't forget the G6 without mw50 performs worse than the G2/G4 and F4 in regards to acceleration.
Choosing between the 109mw50s is hard, and really depends on how you want to fly, and who you are flying against.
Personally I find the K4 is great against stangs, the G6L is better at low speed/stall speed vertical, while the G14 feels different post stall its still a top performer with a first class turn stall speed for a 109. 
I would say the spit9 150oct is the G6L mw50s biggest threat.
Tempest, typhoon, mustang, yak9 have really bad acceleration in comparison.
 

[[TWB]80hd]

On 3/5/2023 at 7:59 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

E-fight = Energy fight.

 

TIE Fighter = A slur comparing the Tempest to the Imperial TIE Fighter from Star Wars, because many Luftwaffe proponents in sims cannot accept that an Allied aircraft can be competitive against their beloved Bf 109.

 

I fly all sides, there are certainly legitimate gripes about the 109 AoA (muh slatz), the 110-G2 with low fuel is a UFO, etc... the Tempest is objectively ridiculous in its current form, and I say that after lengthy discussion with plenty of objective "purple" pilots that have been with this sim (and others) for many, many years.  It maneuvers better than a Spit while accelerating like a rocket, it tanks damage like an IL-2, and it exhibits the same wackadoodle-doo characteristics that many planes do when very light.  It is heavily limited on MP servers for this very reason. 

 

 

On 3/6/2023 at 4:48 PM, Bernard_IV said:

You have to get above the Tempests, they struggle in the climb.  G6 Late with its lighter weight is the way to go.

 

I agree! The G6 Late (MW50 of course) is very competetive with it at low alt.  It eats the K4 for lunch. In a Tempest, I can wipe the floor with pilots that are exponentially better than myself.

[LukeFF]

Guys, friendly reminder: if you're going to complain about flight models, do so in the appropriate section of the forum and with links to supporting evidence. Otherwise, posts are going to start disappearing, at the least.

[RossMarBow]