109 G4 doesn't have bomb drag modeled.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

There's no difference in top speed when the G4 has either 1 250kg or 4 50kgs bombs attached from when it's clean. 

[Knarley-Bob]

Well then, no need to jettison your load for a dog fight. Especially if they are P-47s. Shoot'em down, then go drop your bomb load.  ?

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Blue probably still won't take them anyways. Kinda proves the meme true that Blue just camps in space all day, when this plane is how many years old now, and no ones reported this yet?

[JG7_X-Man]

1 hour ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Blue probably still won't take them anyways. Kinda proves the meme true that Blue just camps in space all day, when this plane is how many years old now, and no ones reported this yet?

 

@=MERCS=JenkemJunkie Are you kidding me?! You think just those that enjoy flying strictly Luftwaffe aircraft are more prone to cheating or exploit game flaws, more so than those whom that fly Allied?

Do you think you are the 1st person to notice this error? Do you think there are not other aircraft (both Axis and Allied) with this issue?

 

I guess you are the dunce of the "Red" side LOL!

Edited January 29, 2023 by JG7_X-Man

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

It's just a joke, relax. What other planes can do this, please post them so they can be fixed.

[JG7_X-Man]

9 minutes ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

It's just a joke, relax. What other planes can do this, please post them so they can be fixed.

 

Jokes that are aimed at someone or a specific group is called being passive aggressive.

As far as I am concerned there are plenty more important bugs in this game that needs to be fixed.

Edited January 29, 2023 by JG7_X-Man

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Call it what you want, but it was just meant to make people laugh, not to be aggressive. It is a pretty serious glitch though, a plane being able to dogfight against defenders like a clean fighter while carrying bombs, then dropping those bombs after killing the defenders is a very large advantage.

[GOA_Karaya_VR]

That bomb rack error could be true, but nothing like the prop hanging with full flaps down with the p47, Tempest and LA5 on a vertical angle.

 

Totally arcade

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Is this turning into a contest? In that case I'll never defend the Tempest on anything, but the Tempest being a Tie Fighter has nothing to do with a bomb drag glitch.

[gimpy117]

4 minutes ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Is this turning into a contest? In that case I'll never defend the Tempest on anything, but the Tempest being a Tie Fighter has nothing to do with a bomb drag glitch.

agreed. this thread isn't about whataboutism. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

Or a P-39 that can drop full flaps at 360 Mph.

[CountZero]

109s have bombs in game ? ?

5 hours ago, GOA_Karaya_CRI*VR* said:

That bomb rack error could be true, but nothing like the prop hanging with full flaps down with the p47, Tempest and LA5 on a vertical angle.

 

Totally arcade

helecopter 109 ? dont exist ? or arcade FM problem is just allied airplanes problem in your view ?

 

but dont worry next new project will have 99% true to real FM insted 95% we have now, so no ufo behaviors well se there for sure lol

[Roland_HUNter]

7 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Or a P-39 that can drop full flaps at 360 Mph.

Flap jamming?? Nothing? ?
Now I understand why Krup fly that plane xD

[Hanu]

Great find! While they at it fixing this they might take away that additional 100kg pilot weight (pilot modeled according to Göring I guess?) from F2's to G4's + all Anton FW's that that practically no other allied plane has at all. (exceptions are MiG-3 and I-16 have 80kg pilots)

 

Really excited about this.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

This is going to go on for hundreds of pages if we turn this into the victim Olympics about which side is more broken. This is just a thread about magic bombs that are objectively wrong by any metric and if you have FM issues outside of this issue, then I encourage you to post your issues in an existing thread about it, or make your own.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

19 hours ago, GOA_Karaya_CRI*VR* said:

That bomb rack error could be true, but nothing like the prop hanging with full flaps down with the p47, Tempest and LA5 on a vertical angle.

 

Totally arcade

The p47 is a flying brick as currently modeled... It needs every advantage it can get. ?

 

The tempest is a well-known UFO. I don't care about Soviet planes so I have no idea about the LA 5.

13 hours ago, CountZero said:

109s have bombs in game ? ?

helecopter 109 ? dont exist ? or arcade FM problem is just allied airplanes problem in your view ?

 

but dont worry next new project will have 99% true to real FM insted 95% we have now, so no ufo behaviors well se there for sure lol

The 109 is definitely a helicopter at times. It prop hangs and goes vertical like no other and routinely kills planes with more energy and supposedly similar climb rates. This has been a problem for years.

[Knarley-Bob]

All I was trying to say, if the bombs don't affect performance, don't drop them. I try to fly all sorts of planes, and see the same problems with all sorts of planes. The thing is, learn them and take advantage when you can. Flying brick, no doubt, but if you are flying against the brick, use that. That would be a good name for a P-47, "The Brick"! Someone who has the skills should make a skin for that one!! ? Don't get me wrong, the P-47 has a special place in my heart.

 

So, if the game let's you get away with it, hell it's legal.................

 

KB

On 1/28/2023 at 7:41 PM, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Blue probably still won't take them anyways. Kinda proves the meme true that Blue just camps in space all day, when this plane is how many years old now, and no ones reported this yet?

Being reported, and getting taken care of are two different topics, my friend, two different topics.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

53 minutes ago, Knarley-Bob said:

Being reported, and getting taken care of are two different topics, my friend, two different topics.

Is there some years old post about this already? Maybe I'm too optimistic, but are magic bombs really something that wouldn't get touched for years? Maybe I'll just take up drinking as a hobby instead, should leave me with less of a headache.

[GOA_Karaya_VR]

3 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

The p47 is a flying brick as currently modeled... It needs every advantage it can get. ?

 

The tempest is a well-known UFO. I don't care about Soviet planes so I have no idea about the LA 5.

The 109 is definitely a helicopter at times. It prop hangs and goes vertical like no other and routinely kills planes with more energy and supposedly similar climb rates. This has been a problem for years.

For what i read, you always fly red, and hate 109s ( and probably love Mustangs ).

 

Try to hang the prop on a 109 bro, and if you can, please show me how to do it.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

1 hour ago, GOA_Karaya_CRI*VR* said:

For what i read, you always fly red, and hate 109s ( and probably love Mustangs ).

 

Try to hang the prop on a 109 bro, and if you can, please show me how to do it.

I fly 75% red, but never Soviet. I do have lots of hours in the 109 and yes, it's a monster in the vertical.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Most if not all planes in the game prop hang too well, including the 109. Some planes do it better than others, but this really isn't a red vs blue issue. The grass isn't greener on the other side, and you'll get prop hanged no matter which side you're playing. Maybe it gets addressed in the new project, but for now it's just a part of the game, and you have to expect it and not attempt hammerhead like moves unless you have a larger energy advantage than would normally be needed.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

2 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Most if not all planes in the game prop hang too well, including the 109. Some planes do it better than others, but this really isn't a red vs blue issue. The grass isn't greener on the other side, and you'll get prop hanged no matter which side you're playing. Maybe it gets addressed in the new project, but for now it's just a part of the game, and you have to expect it and not attempt hammerhead like moves unless you have a larger energy advantage than would normally be needed.

This, overshooting and a low energy enemy reversing is IMO the biggest problem with GB in its current form in terms of online PvP combat. It's really arcadey and does not reward players who seek to retain/maximize energy when certain planes can go vertical from a low energy state, hang on the prop, and shoot accurately with perfect control authority. IMO the worst offenders are the 109 (by far) and also the Hurricane.

Edited January 30, 2023 by drewm3i-VR

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

The control authority at low speeds do to prop wash are over modeled (like 2 to 3 times) to the real test data. This was reported by Yak Panther. I hope they take this seriously when developing FM physic into new project.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Even worse when you put down the flaps with the nose up.  You can take most planes right to stall speed with flaps down and when they're set at stall speed slam full power and pull the nose up 20 degree's or more easy as pie.  Not possible at stall speeds in the real world of physics, that would be a recipe for disaster, basically proving there is no wings level stall.  Only the canned side slip stall, which is quite easily overcome with rudder.

 

If your perfectly vertical in flight attitude and drop flaps you can ride that vertical into negative air speeds and drop vertically down your own smoke.  Pretty sure the controls don't care which direction the airspeed is flowing in relation to flight path for flight control effectiveness, backwards, forwards, oblique airflow, makes zero difference on your flight control authority.  

 

Take a P-39 and drop full flap, hold the nose up to stall, control the power and keep the nose controlled with rudder, you can lock the Bell into doing a nearly vertical helicopter landing.  I've done one with a full stop of less than 20 yards in a field but the nose gear collapsed on the stop, pilot survived without injury.  With smoke on the smoke will show flow almost directly up off the wings.  Forward airflow is virtually nill, but the drop rate combines and is fast enough for full control authority proving airflow direction don't matter squat in game.

[Regingrave-]

4 часа назад, 1PL-Husar-1Esk сказал:

The control authority at low speeds do to prop wash are over modeled (like 2 to 3 times) to the real test data. This was reported by Yak Panther. I hope they take this seriously when developing FM physic into new project.

Never saw those data nor any reports on that from Yak Panther.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

5 minutes ago, Regingrave said:

Never saw those data nor any reports on that from Yak Panther.

There are/were on beta forums.

[Regingrave-]

Только что, 1PL-Husar-1Esk сказал:

There are/were on beta forums.

I scrolled his entire activity on forum and didn't find it.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

2 minutes ago, Regingrave said:

I scrolled his entire activity on forum and didn't find it.

try this sentence

 

My tests of the 109G indicate, that with the power on the control surfaces are two to three as effective as they should be with the propeller opperating, when compared to the Soviet tests.  This is apparent in the dives and level flight. As the trim setting to match the handling qualities are double on the Il-2 BF-109g. E.g, the Il-2 109  needs to -1.5 instead of +1.5 to match the handling qualities indicated in the Soviet tests.  This seems to be apparent through most the flight envelope and even in the yaw axis. 

Whether this is masking the lack of torque and P effects on the aircraft or those effects are to low is hard to say. Since overly effective controls due to propeller wash would hide those effects.  Or a lack of those effects may make the controls seem overly effective.

Edited January 30, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[GOA_Karaya_VR]

15 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Even worse when you put down the flaps with the nose up.  You can take most planes right to stall speed with flaps down and when they're set at stall speed slam full power and pull the nose up 20 degree's or more easy as pie.  Not possible at stall speeds in the real world of physics, that would be a recipe for disaster, basically proving there is no wings level stall.  Only the canned side slip stall, which is quite easily overcome with rudder.

 

If your perfectly vertical in flight attitude and drop flaps you can ride that vertical into negative air speeds and drop vertically down your own smoke.  Pretty sure the controls don't care which direction the airspeed is flowing in relation to flight path for flight control effectiveness, backwards, forwards, oblique airflow, makes zero difference on your flight control authority.  

 

Take a P-39 and drop full flap, hold the nose up to stall, control the power and keep the nose controlled with rudder, you can lock the Bell into doing a nearly vertical helicopter landing.  I've done one with a full stop of less than 20 yards in a field but the nose gear collapsed on the stop, pilot survived without injury.  With smoke on the smoke will show flow almost directly up off the wings.  Forward airflow is virtually nill, but the drop rate combines and is fast enough for full control authority proving airflow direction don't matter squat in game.

P39 is the best example on this sim for Prop Hanging exploit plus flap abuse..

 

Those cobra maneuvers give me goosebumps.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

9 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

The control authority at low speeds do to prop wash are over modeled (like 2 to 3 times) to the real test data. This was reported by Yak Panther. I hope they take this seriously when developing FM physic into new project.

They should also fix the current product that we already paid for and in many respects have gotten duped on. If you're going to advertise realistic simulation physics and dynamic flight models, provide them.

5 hours ago, Regingrave said:

I scrolled his entire activity on forum and didn't find it.

It may have been on Discord.

 

@Yak_Pantherwish to clarify?

5 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Even worse when you put down the flaps with the nose up.  You can take most planes right to stall speed with flaps down and when they're set at stall speed slam full power and pull the nose up 20 degree's or more easy as pie.  Not possible at stall speeds in the real world of physics, that would be a recipe for disaster, basically proving there is no wings level stall.  Only the canned side slip stall, which is quite easily overcome with rudder.

 

If your perfectly vertical in flight attitude and drop flaps you can ride that vertical into negative air speeds and drop vertically down your own smoke.  Pretty sure the controls don't care which direction the airspeed is flowing in relation to flight path for flight control effectiveness, backwards, forwards, oblique airflow, makes zero difference on your flight control authority.  

 

Take a P-39 and drop full flap, hold the nose up to stall, control the power and keep the nose controlled with rudder, you can lock the Bell into doing a nearly vertical helicopter landing.  I've done one with a full stop of less than 20 yards in a field but the nose gear collapsed on the stop, pilot survived without injury.  With smoke on the smoke will show flow almost directly up off the wings.  Forward airflow is virtually nill, but the drop rate combines and is fast enough for full control authority proving airflow direction don't matter squat in game.

https://gfycat.com/valuableevergreenbushsqueaker

[357th_KW]

6 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

try this sentence

 

My tests of the 109G indicate, that with the power on the control surfaces are two to three as effective as they should be with the propeller opperating, when compared to the Soviet tests.  This is apparent in the dives and level flight. As the trim setting to match the handling qualities are double on the Il-2 BF-109g. E.g, the Il-2 109  needs to -1.5 instead of +1.5 to match the handling qualities indicated in the Soviet tests.  This seems to be apparent through most the flight envelope and even in the yaw axis. 

Whether this is masking the lack of torque and P effects on the aircraft or those effects are to low is hard to say. Since overly effective controls due to propeller wash would hide those effects.  Or a lack of those effects may make the controls seem overly effective.

Just to tie in with this, I’ve been doing some dive testing with the 109 lately, replicating this historical test.  In the actual test, they had to very carefully find the right stab trim setting, as too tail heavy and it was impossible to even hold the 109 in the dive, and too nose heavy it would be impossible to recover.  Eventually they found the Goldilocks setting was +1.25 AND they had to double the size of the fixed trim tab on the elevator and then blocked the stab trim at this setting for safety.  In game, I can just ignore the trim and dive the 109s to Mach .85 or greater, and easily recover without touching the trim.  It wasn’t until I was trimmed past +2.5 (almost full nose down) that it was no longer possible to recover from this wild over speed.  It just seems like there is waaaay too much elevator authority.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

18 hours ago, Regingrave said:

I scrolled his entire activity on forum and didn't find it.

Hi. Did you found it?

[Regingrave-]

28.01.2023 в 23:48, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie сказал:

There's no difference in top speed when the G4 has either 1 250kg or 4 50kgs bombs attached from when it's clean. 

We've found the source of the bug, will be fixed in the next update. Thank you very much for the report! ?

 

32 минуты назад, 1PL-Husar-1Esk сказал:

Hi. Did you found it?

Yep, thanks.
The engineers are taking a look on that report, at the first glance there is a misinterpretation of the existing flaws in our FM, but later they themselves should give a more detailed explanation.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Thanks for the quick response <3.

[gimpy117]

Thanks to the devs for looking into this. I'm excited to see if there are any changes. I think the 109's flight model has been in need for a revision for some time. There is no doubt that the aircraft is a powerful fighter, but a lot of us (myself included) have long felt the aircraft has some dubious behaviors especially going uphill and at low speed.   

[FTC_Zero]

On 1/29/2023 at 6:10 AM, GOA_Karaya_CRI*VR* said:

That bomb rack error could be true, but nothing like the prop hanging with full flaps down with the p47, Tempest and LA5 on a vertical angle.

 

Totally arcade

Flaps in that game are from another universe entirely. Thurn fighing with fully deployed flaps is meta and just a bad joke.

[purK]

If the P39 is as good as you guys make it out to be, I'd love to see you fly some successful sorties in it.

Let's face it, most planes in the game can do some crazy stuff at stall speeds, it's not entirely specific to allied or axis planes, but the overall FM. It's something AnPetrovich mentioned wanting to fix before he left, so I hope Gavrick and the rest of the engineers will continue with it in the future. I really look forward to this day.

[JG7_X-Man]

Not to resurrect this one from the dead but I do hope this IL-2 engine will be retired.

Since the advent of the IL-2 series, I have always believed that the low speed handling of these aircraft were a tad to forgiving.

I has always been my notion that the IL-2 series FM's algorithm gives a tad too much emphasis on wing loading coefficient.