Why does no one care about the AI??????

[Corralandy120000]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:38 AM, PaladinX said:

 

 

The IL2 BoS games will never reach that state. We know that meanwhile.

Unfortunately - not usable for a good singleplayer experience.

Amen bro. You've nailed it. It's such a pity BoX didn't state this as a priority in the very biginning. Graphics, damage & flight models are awesome, but this kind of singleplayer immersion and AI thing was absolutely omitted I guess

Edited January 19, 2023 by Corralandy120000

[Deicide]

If you go thru my post history you'd see almost everything I post about is the AI. I refuse to do MP for the same reason as you, I'm not any good without my markers, MOST servers don't even have a personal map marker (i'm not a real pilot and don't care to learn how to navigate by how ever they do it) and I can't fly what I want to fly or how i'd like to fly. I play PWCG exclusively, I own every scripted mission and have played every campaign. AI is the bane of my existence. Its why I don't play as much as I'd like to because its no fun. Half the time I finish a mission and I'm angry in disgust at how bad the AI was that time. Its not just the friendly ai its also the enemy ai. Between following you home, to focusing ONLY ON YOU to everything inbetween. My entire post history is me complaining about AI or asking PTO. AI improvements need to come. This is just a taste..

 

  

On 1/18/2023 at 10:33 PM, RossMarBow said:

Considering how bad players are in multiplayer.
 

Check out my youtube channel I have 100s of videos of bad pilots

 

 

 

Also this is why I don't play online, people like this mock you if you aren't any good and then post videos of it on youtube. "OH LOOK HE"S SPINNING TRYING TO TAKE OFF BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" Seriously.. that is also why I don't play online. I don't want to be mocked in the 3 hours I have to chill and relax after a hard and long day. I'm not a pilot, I don't pretend I am. Like that Youtuber Sheriff guy, he's irks me to no end with the way he is and his arrogance towards others who aren't as good as him.


Also I must include this.. This is 5 years ago. AI has been improved. We are a far cry from these days. But not very far. This comment still stands true 3 years later though.

 

[RossMarBow]

10 hours ago, Deicide said:

If you go thru my post history you'd see almost everything I post about is the AI. I refuse to do MP for the same reason as you, I'm not any good without my markers, MOST servers don't even have a personal map marker (i'm not a real pilot and don't care to learn how to navigate by how ever they do it) and I can't fly what I want to fly or how i'd like to fly. I play PWCG exclusively, I own every scripted mission and have played every campaign. AI is the bane of my existence. Its why I don't play as much as I'd like to because its no fun. Half the time I finish a mission and I'm angry in disgust at how bad the AI was that time. Its not just the friendly ai its also the enemy ai. Between following you home, to focusing ONLY ON YOU to everything inbetween. My entire post history is me complaining about AI or asking PTO. AI improvements need to come. This is just a taste..

 

  

 

 

Also this is why I don't play online, people like this mock you if you aren't any good and then post videos of it on youtube. "OH LOOK HE"S SPINNING TRYING TO TAKE OFF BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" Seriously.. that is also why I don't play online. I don't want to be mocked in the 3 hours I have to chill and relax after a hard and long day. I'm not a pilot, I don't pretend I am. Like that Youtuber German Sheriff guy, he's irks me to no end with the way he is and his arrogance towards others who aren't as good as him.


Also I must include this.. This is 5 years ago. AI has been improved. We are a far cry from these days. But not very far. This comment still stands true 3 years later though.

 

 

Theirs 100s multiplayer il2 youtube channels with way more interesting content.
But you need to relax man most pilots online are just there to have a laugh.
Yea its funny when people are spinning out on the runway.
Its also funny when people start rage posting about how people don't taxi properly.
Its all pretty funny and relaxed. 
Not playing online cause your worried that people might have a laugh at your experience is kinda cringe though.
None really cares that much as long as your not constantly shooting down friendlies, people are just glad to have other people to play with.
I think you need to relax in general.
I have only played this game multiplayer, and in general I only play multiplayer games, because AI in all games is just terrible. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Wardog5711
Remove offensive comments

[Deicide]

 

 

 

the guy whos only post in this was

  

Considering how bad players are in multiplayer.
IL2 AI would have to be powered by AI smarter than human.
Which doesn't actually exist.

 

Check out my youtube channel I have 100s of videos of bad pilots

 

right?

 

But I'm cringe because I don't fly online because I don't want to be mocked in someone's 100s of videos of bad pilot's? Yep sure thing boy ?

 

Hey let us not forget this all isn't about you... I had other reasons but I guess you overlooked that part and just went straight to the part I quoted you in, understandable, I'm equally just as vain.

  

9 hours ago, Deicide said:

I refuse to do MP for the same reason as you, I'm not any good without my markers, MOST servers don't even have a personal map marker (i'm not a real pilot and don't care to learn how to navigate by how ever they do it) and I can't fly what I want to fly or how i'd like to fly.

 

I'll give you other reasons I don't play online. I don't like people and most servers they want you to talk to others on vc or some form of communication, that's a big big no for me. I'd rather just play by myself, make my own missions, do my own thing, fly what I want and when I want. If I Alt F4 before I reach my target or right after I take off because something IRL came up or just because I don't feel like it anymore, I can and often do. If I want to pause it mid flight, tab out and watch hulu or make food, leave my house or do something IRL I can and often do. The few times I have gotten online I can't even fly the plane I want with the mods I want on it. So why should I bother? If I can't do what I want and fly with what I want or how I want? There isn't a personal map marker on any servers that actually have a population on it. No target or nav markers obviously either on populated servers. So why should I bother? Because you and others play online and enjoy it? So? Good for you? As you stated you don't even play SP and only play MP. So why are you even here in this discussion than? This discussion doesn't even matter to you nor does it have any effect on your game play. While for me and others it does.  bye?

Edited January 20, 2023 by Deicide

[RossMarBow]

2 hours ago, Deicide said:

 

 

 

the guy whos only post in this was

  

Considering how bad players are in multiplayer.
IL2 AI would have to be powered by AI smarter than human.
Which doesn't actually exist.

 

Check out my youtube channel I have 100s of videos of bad pilots

 

right?

 

But I'm cringe because I don't fly online because I don't want to be mocked in someone's 100s of videos of bad pilot's? Yep sure thing boy ?

 

Hey let us not forget this all isn't about you... I had other reasons but I guess you overlooked that part and just went straight to the part I quoted you in, understandable, I'm equally just as vain.

  

 

I'll give you other reasons I don't play online. I don't like people and most servers they want you to talk to others on vc or some form of communication, that's a big big no for me. I'd rather just play by myself, make my own missions, do my own thing, fly what I want and when I want. If I Alt F4 before I reach my target or right after I take off because something IRL came up or just because I don't feel like it anymore, I can and often do. If I want to pause it mid flight, tab out and watch hulu or make food, leave my house or do something IRL I can and often do. The few times I have gotten online I can't even fly the plane I want with the mods I want on it. So why should I bother? If I can't do what I want and fly with what I want or how I want? There isn't a personal map marker on any servers that actually have a population on it. No target or nav markers obviously either on populated servers. So why should I bother? Because you and others play online and enjoy it? So? Good for you? As you stated you don't even play SP and only play MP. So why are you even here in this discussion than? This discussion doesn't even matter to you nor does it have any effect on your game play. While for me and others it does.  bye?

 

Fair enough
 

 

 

But again your wrong about a quite a few things

 

I would say about 2/3 of people on average don't do any communication in multiplayer.
And as long as you don't alt f4 because someone is on your six none cares if you quit mid flight.

Fair enough with navigation
But its really not that hard and most people think it goes hand in hand with a flight sim

In saying that theirs a least 2 multiplayer servers with population that give you full navigation and plane markers
And 1 Berloga that lets you fly whatever you want against AI and whatever players join

 

 

Understandable if its not for you, some people get really upset when they get shot down, even more so if its another player
But I find the juxtaposition of you wanting better AI but refusing to acknowledge players aren't magically better than AI interesting 
Like people have said if you don't think the AI are doing the wrong thing, that problem is caused by the mission designer giving them the wrong orders, you could easily fix that yourself by editing the mission its not hard

Also unless your playing a scripted mission the AI orders are to complete 1 mission
Quick missions are simply that quick

 

I think you should like and subscribe to my youtube channel and watch some of my videos, and also check out the people I subscribe too. It will help you make a more informed decision on multiplayer and your expectations for AI.

 

Re-reading peoples complaints the solutions seem to be: 
If you want smarter ai fly the scripted campaign missions
maybe the devs need to let players control their flight more - it seems like a lot of players want friendly planes near them to follow their orders, and constantly baby sit the player, while the enemy planes should completely ignore them
give more mission building options
Which seems pretty simple

Though personally I have no experience with AI being that bad, plenty of multiplayer missions on combat box have AI doing missions and they behave perfectly normal with no problems
 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Wardog5711
Remove offensive comments

[Deicide]

2 hours ago, RossMarBow said:

 

Fair enough
 

 

 

But again your wrong about a quite a few things

 

I would say about 2/3 of people on average don't do any communication in multiplayer.
And as long as you don't alt f4 because someone is on your six none cares if you quit mid flight.

Fair enough with navigation
But its really not that hard and most people think it goes hand in hand with a flight sim

In saying that theirs a least 2 multiplayer servers with population that give you full navigation and plane markers
And 1 Berloga that lets you fly whatever you want against AI and whatever players join

 

 

Understandable if its not for you, some people get really upset when they get shot down, even more so if its another player
But I find the juxtaposition of you wanting better AI but refusing to acknowledge players aren't magically better than AI interesting 
Like people have said if you don't think the AI are doing the wrong thing, that problem is caused by the mission designer giving them the wrong orders, you could easily fix that yourself by editing the mission its not hard

Also unless your playing a scripted mission the AI orders are to complete 1 mission
Quick missions are simply that quick

 

I think you should like and subscribe to my youtube channel and watch some of my videos, and also check out the people I subscribe too. It will help you make a more informed decision on multiplayer and your expectations for AI.

 

Re-reading peoples complaints the solutions seem to be: 
If you want smarter ai fly the scripted campaign missions
maybe the devs need to let players control their flight more - it seems like a lot of players want friendly planes near them to follow their orders, and constantly baby sit the player, while the enemy planes should completely ignore them
give more mission building options
Which seems pretty simple

Though personally I have no experience with AI being that bad, plenty of multiplayer missions on combat box have AI doing missions and they behave perfectly normal with no problems
 

 

 

And yet you continue...

So I'll state my point even more so for you. Because you seem to not understand. So here is a direct answer to your questions..

"I would say about 2/3 of people on average don't do any communication in multiplayer.
And as long as you don't alt f4 because someone is on your six none cares if you quit mid flight."

Okay and so? I also have high ping. Also can't pause an online game.. Next..

 

"Fair enough with navigation
But its really not that hard and most people think it goes hand in hand with a flight sim"

Because I don't care enough to learn to navigate, its not interesting to me at all. I'd rather put on map markers and be done with it.

"In saying that theirs a least 2 multiplayer servers with population that give you full navigation and plane markers
And 1 Berloga that lets you fly whatever you want against AI and whatever players join"
5-10 or less players on any given day with ping over 150+ for me so SURE is a good reason, right?

"Understandable if its not for you,(come on now, you said it yourself and yet you continue...)
some people get really upset when they get shot down, even more so if its another player

(nope don't care one way or another just wanna do my own thing when i wanna do my own thing)
But I find the juxtaposition of you wanting better AI but refusing to acknowledge players aren't magically better than AI interesting 
Like people have said if you don't think the AI are doing the wrong thing, that problem is caused by the mission designer giving them the wrong orders, you could easily fix that yourself by editing the mission its not hard"

(I've given inputs on ai and as well as posted about improvements when they've been made)


"I think you should like and subscribe to my youtube channel and watch some of my videos, and also check out the people I subscribe too. It will help you make a more informed decision on multiplayer and your expectations for AI."

I have more subscribers than you do and I post like once a year if that and generally only videos to show to my friends or graphic demos. Not only that, every single video of mine but a few from the quick look i just did has more views than yours even do. Are you here just to try and promote yourself? If so you're not doing a good job of it. NEXT

"Re-reading peoples complaints the solutions seem to be: 
If you want smarter ai fly the scripted campaign missions
maybe the devs need to let players control their flight more - it seems like a lot of players want friendly planes near them to follow their orders, and constantly baby sit the player, while the enemy planes should completely ignore them
give more mission building options
Which seems pretty simple "

Not quite.. It'd be nice to not have 8 fw190's focus on only you and ignoring the other 3 ai you flew in with. It'd be nice to not have a 109 destroy you in clouds like they don't exist. It'd be nice to have friendly ai engage enemies and not me spamming attack enemy air/ground or heck even to pick "attack enemy spaa" or attack enemy bridge would be nice and better than what we have currently. Maybe if you played SP missions instead of MP all the time you could have more input than what you do and be more constructive to the conversation than you have been. ? bye

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Deicide

[Lusekofte]

Can we be clear on one point. Being good in GB multiplayer do not earn the title “ good pilot” 

[453=Whittle]

2 hours ago, RossMarBow said:

Though personally I have no experience with AI being that bad, plenty of multiplayer missions on combat box have AI doing missions and they behave perfectly normal with no problems

 

 

The AI on combat box seem to be set to a low skill level and IMO absolutely suck for a few different reasons.

- They don't maneuvre in ways that make a fight challenging.

- They often don't shoot when they should.

- They often fly inverted and push negative G's after a merge for too long to make sense.

- They often get stuck in the circle routine.

- A20s and B25s sometimes attempt to be fighters, past the point of trying to defend with offense (eg a B25 recently went vertical and finally stalled whilst trying to get its guns on my 109).

- They are not a challenge unless you don't see them coming.

 

Those points are not made against combat box (my favourite server at the moment), but rather the AI in it and this game generally.

[Zooropa_Fly]

1 hour ago, Deicide said:

Because I don't care enough to learn to navigate, its not interesting to me at all. I'd rather put on map markers and be done with it.

 

Wing Of Liberty server shows your plane on the map, and it's relatively well populated.

I'm not keen on navigating either, out of laziness more than anything.

It's without doubt a science in itself, but on a server you just use roads, towns and rivers etc. Not that difficult.

 

And starting a big d*ck contest about views and subs ?

A bit childish is it not ?

[RossMarBow]

2 hours ago, Deicide said:

 

 

And yet you continue...

So I'll state my point even more so for you. Because you seem to not understand. So here is a direct answer to your questions..

"I would say about 2/3 of people on average don't do any communication in multiplayer.
And as long as you don't alt f4 because someone is on your six none cares if you quit mid flight."

Okay and so? I also have high ping. Also can't pause an online game.. Next..

 

"Fair enough with navigation
But its really not that hard and most people think it goes hand in hand with a flight sim"

Because I don't care enough to learn to navigate, its not interesting to me at all. I'd rather put on map markers and be done with it.

"In saying that theirs a least 2 multiplayer servers with population that give you full navigation and plane markers
And 1 Berloga that lets you fly whatever you want against AI and whatever players join"
5-10 or less players on any given day with ping over 150+ for me so SURE is a good reason, right?

"Understandable if its not for you,(come on now, you said it yourself and yet you continue...)
some people get really upset when they get shot down, even more so if its another player

(nope don't care one way or another just wanna do my own thing when i wanna do my own thing)
But I find the juxtaposition of you wanting better AI but refusing to acknowledge players aren't magically better than AI interesting 
Like people have said if you don't think the AI are doing the wrong thing, that problem is caused by the mission designer giving them the wrong orders, you could easily fix that yourself by editing the mission its not hard"

(I've given inputs on ai and as well as posted about improvements when they've been made)


"I think you should like and subscribe to my youtube channel and watch some of my videos, and also check out the people I subscribe too. It will help you make a more informed decision on multiplayer and your expectations for AI."

I have more subscribers than you do and I post like once a year if that and generally only videos to show to my friends or graphic demos. Not only that, every single video of mine but a few from the quick look i just did has more views than yours even do. Are you here just to try and promote yourself? If so you're not doing a good job of it. NEXT

"Re-reading peoples complaints the solutions seem to be: 
If you want smarter ai fly the scripted campaign missions
maybe the devs need to let players control their flight more - it seems like a lot of players want friendly planes near them to follow their orders, and constantly baby sit the player, while the enemy planes should completely ignore them
give more mission building options
Which seems pretty simple "

Not quite.. It'd be nice to not have 8 fw190's focus on only you and ignoring the other 3 ai you flew in with. It'd be nice to not have a 109 destroy you in clouds like they don't exist. It'd be nice to have friendly ai engage enemies and not me spamming attack enemy air/ground or heck even to pick "attack enemy spaa" or attack enemy bridge would be nice and better than what we have currently. Maybe if you played SP missions instead of MP all the time you could have more input than what you do and be more constructive to the conversation than you have been. ? bye

 

 

Ping does not matter I normally play with about 250ms ping to finnish server.
The game handles ping fine. 

 

You seem to be complaining about 8 enemy planes a lot.
Which suggests your expecting an amazing experience from quick missions.
Quick missions just don't have much going on, try the scripted campaigns. 

 

You're taking this way too personal.
And you completely missed the jokes everyone was making about how bad the average player was.
Because the majority of people who play multiplayer don't take the game too seriously (most of the time).
Their's very little gate keeping, not that anyone should pay attention to gate keepers, multiplayer servers happily welcome people who don't even know how to fly and use a mouse and keyboard.

Personally I started this game up and joined multiplayer servers straight away, I'm still a sub-par pilot, but whatever I have loads of fun. If you actually bothered to watch my videos you would see the majority of them are me getting blown out of the sky in an often hilarious fashion. One of my most popular youtube videos is me losing every 1v1 for 22mins. The most popular il2 youtube razor just just crash footage. The majority of people just don't care. And despite being bad I have lead many successful bombing raids and fighter groups, and even got admins to change things on the server.

 

Take a step back and relax my dude.

 

Everyone wants better AI just look at all the missplaced hype around chat GPT.

Its not a single player vs multiplayer thing.
Multiplayer mission builders want more tools to make better scripts too.
The reality is though that in a single player game your for the foreseeable future your going to be entirely reliant on scripting.
Quick missions have no scripting.

So apart from better scripting.
The only other problem with AI I have seen that can be addressed in two threads on single player AI is having an option that forces all allied planes to treat the player plane like its the president himself and for the enemy planes to pretend you don't exist until you are shooting at them.

Edited January 20, 2023 by RossMarBow

[Deicide]

no I don't  do quick missions ever. I haven't since that's how the campaign was. My bad I use quick missions to test new vehicles I buy for first time take off landing. Nothing else and certainly not the way you're thinking. As I stated previously...campaign, pwcg or scripted only. Reading comprehension is a thing.. I actually read what you've typed. Can't say the same for you..

 

I don't care why you personally bought the game the be honest with you. It does not matter to me. And your reason makes me care even less.

 

How about this... I do not care about multi player in any way shape or form.. I do not care about your ping or mine.. I do not care about any of the reasons or excuses you brought up.. or anything you mentioned about admins and servers.. I do not care whether you're good or bad.. I do not care how easy it is to learn navigation.. I just do not want to play online.. I do not care about your videos.. I do not care about anything to do with multi player full stop.. I do not like green eggs and ham,Ross, I do not like green eggs and ham.. Christ.. children these days..

[Wardog5711]

Everyone needs to chill.  It's a game, not a way of life.

 

[Deicide]

3 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

Wing Of Liberty server shows your plane on the map, and it's relatively well populated.

I'm not keen on navigating either, out of laziness more than anything.

It's without doubt a science in itself, but on a server you just use roads, towns and rivers etc. Not that difficult.

 

And starting a big d*ck contest about views and subs ?

A bit childish is it not ?

 

Wings of Liberty is Eastern Front the 1 time when I was on and I couldn't use the plane i wanted or with the mods i wanted on it. So no that doesn't apply to me either. Full circle to what I mentioned previously.

 

Population... the populations are insanely low, I got on the other day randomly and just went to the MP menu to just look and 1 had more than 20+ players with 150+ ping for me and 2 in the teens with 100+ ping and the rest in single digits with 150+ ping. I wouldn't call that good population numbers. Maybe 60 players total thru out the entirety of the mp server.  ?

 

OH! I forgot I did see a full server once (might of been combat box since that's Western front one if I remember right) when i glanced at the server list, it only took a major update to finally completely drop for it to happen.. Either way didn't matter to me because I wasn't joining nor did I even care to consider joining.

 

Same reason for the navigation, to lazy and don't care enough to learn. Rather be able to watch hulu on my phone while auto level than focus on some random road or river or town I've never heard of or been to, when all i have to do is press a button in the menu for ground markers and navigation markers.

 

"

And starting a big d*ck contest about views and subs ?

A bit childish is it not ?"

Yeah and Sometimes you've gotta be mean to people before they truly,fully and completely understand you..

[PatrickAWlson]

4 hours ago, Wardog5711 said:

Everyone needs to chill.  It's a game, not a way of life.

 

 

Just wait until they start getting into flight models  

[SYN_Speck]

As bizzare as some of these posts are, I must weigh in to agree with the OP sentiment. The AI is just a total immersion killer.

 

I think the graphics, aircraft visuals, FMs, DMs, maps and scenery, even the optimization for my older PC are terrific. The campaign works pretty well, and Vander's and Pat Wilson's mission and campaign generators are great supplements. It's so awesome in so many ways, and the SP experience is not far from being awesome.

 

I started out with flight sims in 2005 with IL2, moving on to ROF and now BOX. I've had a lot of great experiences flying MP in the above titles; RL limits my flight time since around the release of BOX, and so I like to fly SP now and then just for fun. I'd probably do it a lot more if the AI were even up to the par of the old IL2/1946.

 

All through the original IL2 series and ROF, I enjoyed flying SP, sometimes in career but more often just setting up quick missions to have a fun dogfight. The AI in those sims had their flaws, but they were passable. In BOX, it seems to my ignorant view that all they can do is doggedly and haplessly follow waypoints, deviating only to doggedly and haplessly follow the player's aircraft. So many times in career I have watched opposing flights fly right through each other, ignoring each other as one flight goes to bomb their target and the other gangs up on my aircraft (naturally, the only one in my flight to react defensively to the approaching enemy). In quick missions, I shoot down all the enemies that I have ammo for, while the others swirl around harmlessly. Try a quick mission- fly a little ways off from the action, and land in the grass. The opponents will swirl around, looking like they might be in a dogfight- but over and over again, opposing aircraft maneuver to where they nearly have a guns solution on a foe, but then they just casually stay on their six for a while without firing, then drift off when another airplane comes near (usually into a lazy, repetitive, predictable, half-assed defensive maneuver. But never mind: the "attacking" aircraft will pull into a guns solution, but then, rather than firing, ease off on the stick and then fire a few shots one or two hundred meters behind the target). Rarely if ever do they harm each other. Sometimes, on the initial merge, one of the flights doesn't even engage, flying straight through the supposed melee and returning to base.

 

Go ahead and make excuses. Something about mission logic, yes yes. The AI are pathetic, an immersion killer. Immersion is the life-blood of a flight sim. IMHO.

 

It's sad, when so many other aspects of the sim are just great. I get it that programming good AI is hard, and that fundamental flaws in the game engine may well be making it prohibitively complicated to try to fix it. I also suspect that complaints on the English-language side of the forums may not garner much attention from programmers in moscow. Still I felt the need to weigh in with my two cents. I want to love this sim. Apologies for the rant.

[357th_KW]

16 hours ago, Wardog5711 said:

Everyone needs to chill.  It's a game, not a way of life.

 

 

You'll never get on the front page of the stats with that attitude! 

Edited January 21, 2023 by 357th_KW

[RyanR]

Yup. Some folks need to chill. Some don't don't need to chill. Not a cheap sim, and our time is valuable.

 

I really hope the developers figure out something to get the AI workable. Dunno why it's been so hard to get the AI wingmen to simply attack bad guys with a set of decent radio commands. This should be so easy. A radio command triggers a discrete behavior in the AI. Attack nearest air target. I don't care if they attack the wrong nearest air target, as long as they attack something. Poor tactics? I don't care. Just do something. 

 

-Ryan

[RossMarBow]

9 hours ago, RyanR said:

Yup. Some folks need to chill. Some don't don't need to chill. Not a cheap sim, and our time is valuable.

 

I really hope the developers figure out something to get the AI workable. Dunno why it's been so hard to get the AI wingmen to simply attack bad guys with a set of decent radio commands. This should be so easy. A radio command triggers a discrete behavior in the AI. Attack nearest air target. I don't care if they attack the wrong nearest air target, as long as they attack something. Poor tactics? I don't care. Just do something. 

 

-Ryan

If you look at the other thread on AI.
Or other threads.
The developers made design decisions that seem to go against what people want.
i.e. presidential mode with unlimited command distances etc. etc.
vs what we have now which has been made harder on purpose
Problem is introducing hard mode simulator stuff into the players interactions with the AI

 

Having a presidential mode were allied planes always obey all commands and follow/do/whatever the player is doing
And enemy planes prefer to attack the player last 

Would solve most of these problems.

Edited January 22, 2023 by RossMarBow

[-TBC-AeroAce]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:15 PM, Wardog5711 said:

Everyone needs to chill.  It's a game, not a way of life.

 

I would seriously say that it is a way of life for some people. Your statement is a little ignorant.

Edited January 22, 2023 by -TBC-AeroAce

[Dragon1-1]

Note that the AI doesn't need to be "smarter than a human" not to suck. By no means. Flying is not about smarts, flying is about following procedures and making simple decisions quickly, based on information you have. AI can do all that, and in fact, in a constrained environment such as a flight sim, it can do it better than a human. In fact, given that WWII procedures were typically very simple and designed for pilots with not a whole lot of training, they should be straightforward to implement.

 

First thing, AI needs to fly properly. Even if it does use the same FM as humans do, so do autopilot systems IRL. So flying itself is not the problem, and besides, they know how to fly. The problem is decisions. More complex behavior is needed for formations, for instance. IRL, there are, for every kind of formation, specific procedures on how the leader signals a formation to turn, what the wingmen do when the formation turns, and how a formation climbs and descends. Turn "the book" into AI code, and you'll improve its behavior significantly. Of course, there were different books, so it should be possible to set in editor which doctrine the AI will follow.

 

Likewise, combat. DCS did it pretty well. The AI will look at its own plane, at the one it's engaging, and will decide whether to go one or two circles. If certain conditions are met, it will  execute certain tactics, just like a human has a decision tree and decision cues. That makes the AI feel pretty smart. It's an algorithm, but it's an algorithm that works. You can easily outsmart it, but outflying it is challenging, and it does make good decisions using its logic. Real pilots follow rules, doctrines, tactics and procedures, which can all be described in a way a computer will understand. It won't be Maverick, who uses instinct, luck and thinking on his feet to dominate the fight, but it just might be the boring, rule-bound pilot who accomplishes his mission and gets his ship home by the numbers, assuming he doesn't run into someone who can think outside the book. We don't need smarts from the AI, just competence.

[Wardog5711]

Quote

I would seriously say that it is a way of life for some people. Your statement is a little ignorant.

My statement was directed at the individuals that are getting into yet another keyboard dual over an issue that is not going to be solved by that duel.

I fully understand that many people here are heavily invested in the SIM, and I respect that. But an ongoing argument between players on the forum is just a waste of everyones time.  

 

 

[Livai]

Stop pretending, why was the IL-2 1946 so challenging???

• Because the AI cheated? -> YES.
• Because the AI used differrent flight model? -> NO

In every Game the AI cheat when you raise the difficult level but nobody rubberbanding about it.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Livai

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, -TBC-AeroAce said:

I would seriously say that it is a way of life for some people.

 

Then there's something seriously wrong with them if they really take it that seriously. It's a video game.

Edited January 22, 2023 by LukeFF

[Dragon1-1]

Given the limitations I've been running into lately, I'm inclined to agree. Il-2 is poorly suited to be anything more than a video game. DCS does a good job as a virtual museum, only you can actually fly these warbirds much closer the way they were flown IRL than you could with a real one. Il-2? Engine timers, fudged low speed handling, no wake turbulence, weak torque effects... Not to mention lack of clickable cockpits. 

[RyanR]

51 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Then there's something seriously wrong with them if they really take it that seriously. It's a video game.

 

 

Not a game, it's a fantasy. The fantasy needs to at least be just good enough so that you don't see the man behind the curtain. Anything more than just good enough is icing on the cake.

 

The fantasy works sometimes, sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, threads like this are created. I sometimes wish IL-2 had a subscription based pay. That'd keep the revenue coming in for the developers to have an incentive to fix stuff.

 

For us US folks, multi-player is a "meh" option. Servers are pretty dead when we're awake.

 

-Ryan

[Trooper117]

1 minute ago, RyanR said:

I sometimes wish IL-2 had a subscription based pay.

 

I think you would see the player base drop rapidly...

[CountZero]

23 minutes ago, RyanR said:

 

 

Not a game, it's a fantasy. The fantasy needs to at least be just good enough so that you don't see the man behind the curtain. Anything more than just good enough is icing on the cake.

 

The fantasy works sometimes, sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, threads like this are created. I sometimes wish IL-2 had a subscription based pay. That'd keep the revenue coming in for the developers to have an incentive to fix stuff.

 

For us US folks, multi-player is a "meh" option. Servers are pretty dead when we're awake.

 

-Ryan

subscription revenue would be used not to fix stuf but to improve adiction level of game so players stay subscribed, ala loyality bonuses and if you sub out you lose lot more then if you stay subed, and so on... 

WT have pay to grind, are they using it to fix old bugs, no they use that money to make new airplanes/tanks what not so ppl buy new thing, to study how to make free grined harder and so on, there is more ppl who will buy new thing and forget about bugs untill next new thing is offered.

Same is here, nothing new to buy, so ppl waist time complaining about AI, when next big thing get offered they will buy that new thing as there is nothing els...

Edited January 22, 2023 by CountZero

[BlitzPig_EL]

I gave up on subscriptions when I stopped playing EVE Online.  If IL2 went to a subscription based model, I would uninstall and never come back.

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, RyanR said:

I sometimes wish IL-2 had a subscription based pay.

 

Shut your whore mouth with that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I jest of course...but seriously. Subscription?

Nope.

[oc2209]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:45 PM, SYN_Speck said:

Try a quick mission- fly a little ways off from the action, and land in the grass. The opponents will swirl around, looking like they might be in a dogfight- but over and over again, opposing aircraft maneuver to where they nearly have a guns solution on a foe, but then they just casually stay on their six for a while without firing, then drift off when another airplane comes near (usually into a lazy, repetitive, predictable, half-assed defensive maneuver. But never mind: the "attacking" aircraft will pull into a guns solution, but then, rather than firing, ease off on the stick and then fire a few shots one or two hundred meters behind the target). Rarely if ever do they harm each other. Sometimes, on the initial merge, one of the flights doesn't even engage, flying straight through the supposed melee and returning to base.

 

This is an unfair and inaccurate depiction of the current AI. Is the AI sometimes as dumb as you describe? Yes. Always? No. There are variables that can pretty radically alter its competence, including using cannons versus machine guns, and nose-mounted versus wing-mounted guns.

 

Here's a non-cherry picked example of an 8v8, all Ace-level AI, 109G-6 Lates (with boost) versus Tempests (with engine upgrade), all starting with 70% fuel loads. No 30mm for any of the 109s:

 

Spoiler

 

 

In roughly 4 minutes, 1 Tempest crashes for reasons unknown (not shot by enemy), I personally shoot down 2, while my flight downs 5. In exchange, 2 109s are shot down by Tempests.

 

I'm sure this could be countered by an example where AI P-51Bs can't shoot anything down, but whatever.

 

8 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It won't be Maverick, who uses instinct, luck and thinking on his feet to dominate the fight, but it just might be the boring, rule-bound pilot who accomplishes his mission and gets his ship home by the numbers, assuming he doesn't run into someone who can think outside the book. We don't need smarts from the AI, just competence.

 

Actually, the BoX AI already broadly behaves this way in career. Besting the AI is obviously very easy in most 1v1 scenarios, unless it's in a plane vastly superior to your own. But where the AI becomes a threat is over time. Yes, maybe you can win dozens of 1v4 (or more) situations. But eventually the AI will nail you. That's the fun of the ironman career: seeing how long you can make it before bad luck finishes you.

 

In that sense, it's roughly analogous to an actual career. Most competent human pilots will be aces versus AI, but like many/most real life aces, your luck runs out the more combat you face. Barring the tiny fraction of pilots who survived hundreds of combats in WWII.

 

I'm not saying the BoX AI can't/shouldn't be improved; all I'm saying is that it currently offers enough of a challenge that most human pilots doing an ironman career on max difficulty, won't be able to survive more than a couple dozen sorties. In that sense, the AI is competent enough.

Edited January 22, 2023 by oc2209

[oc2209]

8 Yak-1bs and 8 Fw-190A-6s can chew each other up in barely over 3 minutes:

 

Spoiler

 

 

I got 3 kills, granted. I know I'm supposed to let the AI do everything, but it's boring. The point is that plenty of AI vs AI hits were scored for both sides. 3 Yaks were lost to enemy fire; 1 Yak was lost to a head-on collision with a 190. Removing that collision from the tally, Yak AI shot down 4 190s on its own.

 

I next tried a P-51B vs 109K and 190D mix. That ended as hilariously as I expected, with myself getting the only kill (a 190D). All my fellow P-51s were shot down by the enemy AI. Before everybody was shot down, they hit 2-3 enemies with no significant damage done. And yes, my gunnery was sh**, which is why I got only 1 kill.

[oc2209]

I wanted to see how the AI would do with nose-mounted .50s, against a big target like an Me-410. The total fight took too long (~10m) and was therefore too large a file to upload, so I cut it down to the last few minutes; even chasing a damaged P-38 is difficult in a slug like the 410:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Anyway, it's interesting to note where the surviving P-38s' damage is located. A lot of 13mm nose hits, implying to me that it's damage taken from 410 rear gunners. If it was head-on damage, there should be at least a few 20mm hits nearby, you would think.

 

410 AI only scored 1 kill. P-38s got 3 kills. I got 2 kills (with some difficulty).

[Avimimus]

A lot of off topic discussion here, but - I've been saying for a long time that AI is the weakest point (perhaps the only major weakness).

 

Particularly:

- Reworking AI spotting would improve aerial combat and tank combat (i.e. modelling the fact that AI can only look in one direction at a time, has imperfect eyesight etc.)

- Creating a more modular structure to the AI where different manoeuvres are available to different aircraft (or eras) and can be triggered by conditions such as meeting opponents (i.e. encountering a faster opponent, or a diving opponent would change the availability different manoeuvres).

 

These are both areas where DCS has pulled ahead of Great Battles... so I was surprised to hear that the damage model and flight model will be reworked, but nothing on the AI.

[depapier]

Fellas, its not very hard, I don't know where you strayed in this topic.. The ai currently isn't "sometimes good, sometimes not so good", nor does it have anything to do with multiplayer comparisons. It's just not performing what it's designed to do, end of story. We are talking about a crucial feature of single player part of Il2BoX - and it is as of today basically kaputt.

[Leftenant_Soap]

Sometimes I really really really get disgusted with the friendly AI.

I just got fragged when I was on my 12th kill in a mission. I literally had the Medal of Honor in the bag and then some joker on my 6 o'clock, shooting over my shoulder as they do, completely missed and put all his rounds into me instead.

Do I have to check my six for friendlies too? (rhetorical question)

If just one thing with AI were fixed, I wish that shooting over your shoulder, ignoring you being directly in the bullet path nonsense was gone.

 

Ugh, yuck...

[RyanR]

6 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I gave up on subscriptions when I stopped playing EVE Online.  If IL2 went to a subscription based model, I would uninstall and never come back.

 

Yeah. I gave up on subscriptions and multiplayer 20-25 years ago with Warbirds and Aces High. The original IL-2 (1946) scratched that itch pretty well.

 

-Ryan

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, depapier said:

The ai currently isn't "sometimes good, sometimes not so good",

 

Okay, I guess my recordings where the AI can shoot down other AI, aren't actually happening.

 

Funny thing about saying the AI is just pure trash/broken/worthless, full stop, is that it doesn't really help to fix anything. By specifying where the AI does work and where it doesn't, maybe there's a small chance something could actually get fixed/improved.

 

1 hour ago, DD_Soapy said:

Sometimes I really really really get disgusted with the friendly AI.

I just got fragged when I was on my 12th kill in a mission. I literally had the Medal of Honor in the bag and then some joker on my 6 o'clock, shooting over my shoulder as they do, completely missed and put all his rounds into me instead.

 

This has never happened to me in 1006 hours (how long I've run the game, according to Steam).

 

I'm not arguing whether it's immensely irritating for friendly AI to shoot you. I'm only saying that, depending on individual player behaviors/difficulty settings, etc, it's not a universal, unavoidable problem.

 

There's a lot of things people complain about here (like AI ganging up on the player, following the player all over the map, etc) that I encounter either rarely or never. Which implies to me that the AI problems are likely exacerbated by a certain combination of settings and player behavior that the AI reacts to.

 

If the AI was universally braindead, it should behave the same way from player to player.

[oc2209]

Here's an example of the AI punishing a player's mistake (skip ahead to the 1:45 mark if you don't care about the setup):

 

Spoiler

 

 

That wasn't a terribly easy shot I presented. You can see the AI initially fires over me before adjusting its aim to hit with great effect.

[Gambit21]

33 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

This has never happened to me in 1006 hours (how long I've run the game, according to Steam).

 

I've seen it happen many times over the years in testing.

 

33 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

I'm not arguing whether it's immensely irritating for friendly AI to shoot you. I'm only saying that, depending on individual player behaviors/difficulty settings, etc,

 

There is no "player behavior" that causes the AI to shoot over your shoulder. This is just silly. In order for an AI aircraft to shoot over your shoulder, it has to be on your six. The only "behavior" happening here is on the part of the AI that decides to park behind you and shoot at the guy you're shooting at.

 

33 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

it's not a universal, unavoidable problem.

 

Nor is it an easily avoidable problem by picking certain settings. Unless you know of a setting that prevents AI aircraft from deciding to attack an enemy that you're already engaged with. What setting is this exactly?

 

33 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

There's a lot of things people complain about here (like AI ganging up on the player, following the player all over the map, etc) that I encounter either rarely or never. Which implies to me that the AI problems are likely exacerbated by a certain combination of settings and player behavior that the AI reacts to.

 

It's neither of these things.

Most often it's mission design, meaning the AI is set to attack the player rather than attack aircraft within a certain area of the map, or set to attack a group.

That said, I've seen it happen at other times. The AI tends to change behaviors after updates etc when technically it shouldn't.

 

 

33 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

If the AI was universally braindead, it should behave the same way from player to player.

 

I think it's getting smarter...recently I caught it laughing at a human that don't know what a 1 circle fight is.

 

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I've seen it happen many times over the years in testing.

 

 

I said what my experience was. It differs from yours. What's your point?

 

You might have a point if I said 'the AI never shoots at a friendly, ever,' but that's not what I said.

 

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

There is no "player behavior" that causes the AI to shoot over your shoulder. This is just silly. In order for an AI aircraft to shoot over your shoulder, it has to be on your six. The only "behavior" happening here is on the part of the AI that decides to park behind you and shoot at the guy you're shooting at.

 

The player behavior is hanging on the ass of a target for a really long time without bothering to ascertain where friendlies and enemies are during that time. If you take your shots quickly and get out of the way quickly (which you should do to avoid getting shot by enemy AI), then it's not an issue. At all.

 

Collision with friendlies is a much greater danger--and one that even happened in real life, if too many people were chasing the same target.

 

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Nor is it an easily avoidable problem by picking certain settings. Unless you know of a setting that prevents AI aircraft from deciding to attack an enemy that you're already engaged with. What setting is this exactly?

 

Playing career on less than top difficulty. Since @DD_Soapy got 12 kills in one sortie, I'm guessing he was playing at less than max difficulty. 12 kills means A) there were very few enemies left, and B) friendly AI was probably aggressively chasing the same target.

 

If you chase an enemy in a 6v1 scenario, or whatever, then there's a good chance the friendly AI will either hit you or collide with you. Don't get sloppy, don't get kill hungry, and it won't happen. Either kill the target quickly, or don't chase when you see other friendlies going after the target. That's what I meant by it being a completely avoidable problem.

 

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

It's neither of these things.

Most often it's mission design, meaning the AI is set to attack the player rather than attack aircraft within a certain area of the map, or set to attack a group.

That said, I've seen it happen at other times. The AI tends to change behaviors after updates etc when technically it shouldn't.

 

I see a pointless correction to my statement, and supposition, without a valid explanation for how anything actually works.

 

When would mission design ever dictate, during a regular career sortie, that an entire enemy flight attack the player?

 

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

I think it's getting smarter...recently I caught it laughing at a human that don't know what a 1 circle fight is.

 

So, you're putting a personal attack here, while you're responding to a post I originally directed at someone else? Did I insult you lately?

What's the logic here, besides an obvious attempt to demean me?

 

Bravo. You insulted a stranger over the internet; evidently you're still gunning for me weeks after the last time you insulted and demeaned me. Congrats on holding that grudge.