Why does no one care about the AI??????

[Olt_Kloetenburg]

Dear community,

 

after years of thinking that this simulator about to be a worthy successor to IL2 1946 I am seeing myself at the end of the road right now.

I am not that good a player to compete on "Wings of Liberty" or another server where I will be shot down in a matter of minutes without even knowing where that came from.

I also don't possess the time and resources to become one, finally my 1920x1080 monitor will probably not allow for that.

But that's not why I'm here, I like that so many people can enjoy this combined with unmatched damage modelling, realistic physics and decent graphics.

 

I loved the old Singleplayer in the Il2 1946 days. I get that in this new environment ai is much harder to come by and to code and it takes a lot of work. But was there any progress being made in the last years? I get the impression that the ai is less capable than ever and most of the time to stupid to be worth the time playing a mission. 

I've been also using Pat Wilson's generator lately - although that creates a lot of immersion and was fun for a short while, I can't close my eyes anymore.

 

Why does no one at 1CGS care about the ai? If development is going towards a pure multiplayer game, please advertise as one. 

 

I could cry as there is so much done right in this game. Still praying for an extensive ai overhaul some day I am however about to pull the plug.

[[TWB]80hd]

Not a slam on anyone, and huge potential for me to be wrong here (3% at least!) but as far as I can tell the only ones developing with a focus on multiplayer are community members building dynamic missions like FVP/Combat Box/TAW (I am sure there are others as well).

 

The main dev team, from my perspective, is focused on improving the engine itself (graphically and otherwise), modeling new equipment, and general bug fixes/maintenance.

 

I do not get the impression that no one cares about the AI, from what we are told the "vast majority" of the player base are supposed to be single player only (or mostly?), so plenty of people care, but as far as the state of the AI goes, you have any specific complaints/things you'd like to see?

[Olt_Kloetenburg]

Basically any believable behavior. Sometimes they spread on their own and go after targets before I told them, sometimes they don't get it at all and fly at my side until they crash or get shot down. My wingman does not care about my health at all and does the same the others do. Ground attack (not bombing) takes ages and they all drop their stuff at the same target. Even ace AI does sometimes open fire way early. On the other hand the ai is masterful in deflection shooting to an extent that I simply can't understand.

Bomber gunners were a threat some time ago, right now they just seem to enjoy shooting in every direction except my plane.

Sometimes AI just taxies into my plane and doesn't care. 

 

Again, I get that perfect ai does not exist etc. - still, this is not even mediocre as I am not able to even come close to do any sort of tactics with them let alone rely on their flying. 

My impression is that the guy responsible for AI left years ago and all that's being done since is tinkering around.

The base model is cool as the AI is capable of actually flying those planes and managing the systems! Everything on top is the problem.

[PatrickAWlson]

I don't think that is entirely fair.  For awhile there was a focus on AI improvements and the effects were noticeable.   Lately, however, we seem to be back in the AI dark ages where lingering problems are not addressed all while new ones are created.

 

The AI does not have a human like decision loop.  It does not combine an overall plan with a short term plan with execution.  Example: Overall plan is attack.  Immediate plan is execute a split-S from an altitude advantage.  Execution involves manipulating the controls to perform the desired maneuver.  Maneuver over - reevaluate.

 

That may not be entirely fair either.  It does seem to have an overall plan, just with limited options.  Fly normally.  Attack.  Run away at damage threshold.  It also seems to get confused.  It does seem to perform maneuvers but too often it chooses turn right.  Not always by any means, but too often.  It does control the aircraft through the maneuver but it does so in a bizarre, hyperactive way. You can see how many CPU cycles are given to the AI by watching the control surfaces flutter and the throttle go 0-100 and back to 0.  There seems to be no throttle on the AI.  

 

My $.02 is that the code is probably not very well written.  I am guessing the AI logic, which would always be complex, is a mess.  Because it is a mess and because there is turnover, everybody is afraid to touch it.  The frequency that the AI gets confused just screams that the decision making processes are not in a cohesive block of code.  More like a not so well written event driven model.

 

One factor in talk about the next product?

[blitze]

Yes, throttle control in formation is a great example with AI issues.  Fly your place, form up and then activate Auto Pilot and the throttle work seems dizzying, back and forth in large motions and also AI resets your sight settings.  It seems to go through a bit of control cycling to fly the plane.

 

Good thing is that AI has same limitations re physiology and flight modelling as we have.

 

Sometimes mission parameters get the best of AI as well like with Free Hunt and Armed Reconnaissance although Free Hunt has improved over the last couple years.  I also wonder if there is same AI routines for WW1 as there is for WW2 pilots....

[AEthelraedUnraed]

5 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

The AI does not have a human like decision loop.  It does not combine an overall plan with a short term plan with execution.  Example: Overall plan is attack.  Immediate plan is execute a split-S from an altitude advantage.  Execution involves manipulating the controls to perform the desired maneuver.  Maneuver over - reevaluate.

In IL2, the overall plan is left to the mission logic, and IMHO rightfully so because that enables the mission writer to determine what task the AI should execute. If an AI flight should attack ground targets, it should attack ground targets and not suddenly decide to chase enemies instead. Properly written mission logic makes that possible.

 

16 minutes ago, Olt_Kloetenburg said:

Sometimes they spread on their own and go after targets before I told them, sometimes they don't get it at all and fly at my side until they crash or get shot down.

The interplay between mission logic and AI also means that, as is the case in this quote, a lot of things that players classify as "AI problems" aren't actually AI problems at all, but rather problems with the generated mission logic. IMO, that's where the biggest gains can be made, not the AI itself. That said, I agree that some mission generation improvements are necessary.

 

15 minutes ago, Olt_Kloetenburg said:

My wingman does not care about my health at all and does the same the others do.

I think it's debatable to what extent a wingman should be there just to protect the leader. If you read accounts of WW2 air combat, a dogfight usually degenerated into an chaotic and uncoordinated "every man for himself" type of furball within minutes. Of course, if a pilot wasn't in immediate danger and he saw a friendly being attacked, he would've intervened. But I think it's unrealistic to demand a wingman always sticks with the player and immediately targets any AI targeting the player.

 

12 minutes ago, Olt_Kloetenburg said:

On the other hand the ai is masterful in deflection shooting to an extent that I simply can't understand.

Bomber gunners were a threat some time ago, right now they just seem to enjoy shooting in every direction except my plane.

You know the reason for that? Because users complained AI pilots were too bad at shooting and gunners were too deadly ?... can't blame the Devs for listening to their user base.

 

The AI and especially the mission generation have their issues, but it's much less simple and one-sided than you purport it to be

[Mysticpuma]

I do regularly say it but "Battle of Britain :Wings of Victory II" had the greatest Ai I have ever seen or experienced. 

 

I remember being in a rolling scissors, the enemy then went I to a yoyo, reversed the attack and then I was fighting for my virtual life! 

Next I was down on the deck trying to take down a 108, I had a few hits on it, the Ai was trying to avoid my shots, pulled a tight turn and it stalled into the ground! 

The Ai didn't fly perfectly, it actually stalled as it didn't realise its aircraft limits after the damage. Luckily I was capturing video and it can be seen at the 9 minute 14 second moment here:

 

 

Buddeye, the coder for that Ai, still stands tall in my opinion as the best Ai coder in any WW2 combat flight simulation. 

Wouldn't it be great if he would consider joining any new projects or updating BoX with his talent ?

Edited January 17, 2023 by Mysticpuma

[PatrickAWlson]

10 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

In IL2, the overall plan is left to the mission logic, and IMHO rightfully so because that enables the mission writer to determine what task the AI should execute. If an AI flight should attack ground targets, it should attack ground targets and not suddenly decide to chase enemies instead. Properly written mission logic makes that possible.

 

I disagree with that statement. I feel as though you are not distinguishing between orders, which the mission designer certainly has control over, and decisions, which the mission designer has only a tiny bit of control over.

 

The order given is the mission design.  How to carry that out the order is mostly done by the AI.  How to fly the plane is entirely done by the AI.  How to respond to events is also 90% AI.  

 

To influence AI responses to mission events, mission designers have two usable waypoint priorities to influence AI: Low and Medium.  Low means attack other planes and medium means go about your business unless attacked.  The vast majority of meaningful AI decisions are made in the code.  They have to be made in the code because AI must be influenced by mission events such as planes appearing, damage taken, the position of friendly and enemy assets and others.  These data points will change every time the mission is flown.  

[sevenless]

53 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

Buddeye, the coder for that Ai, still stands tall in my opinion as the best Ai coder in any WW2 combat game. 

Wouldn't it be great if he would consider joining any new projects or updating BoX with his talent ?

 

Good AI and Singleplayer development is incredibly cost intensive. That is one reason why whenever possible companies try to avoid that and focus on multiplayer. However in the long run it will bite them in the backside if their multiplayer community is so tiny that the developer cannot make a living of them. Back when IL2-1946 and BoB-II-WoV were developed, nearly no one was playing multiplayer, hence the development was nearly entirely singleplayer centric.

[Mysticpuma]

Okay so after a bit of digging around I found a post by Buddeye detailing his thoughts/input on how Ai work and how he coded it. This was originally posted by Heinkill on the ATAG forums. 

 

"Buddye on design of the BOB2 AI Maneuver Selection. 

 

The design of the AI maneuver Selection Criteria was driven by the need to become more deterministic and less random in selecting AI maneuvers. I felt the need to move in this direction to improve the AI offence and defense so the AI selection software had more control...

Here is a summary of how the AI selects from the (more than 80) available maneuvers:

1. Altitude (how much altitude and rate of change)
2. Speed (how much speed, and rate of change)
3. Position of A/C to each other (nose to tail, tail to tail, nose to beam, tail to beam or left, right, front, back) This is what makes the AI really 'smart' - it is constantly testing to see if it is 'offensive' or 'defensive' and chooses its response dynamically as the fight progresses.

To implement the new selection criteria I built a 3 X 6 matrix (a truth table) and many new programs. For each A/C (the unfriendly and the AI or the player), I designed programs to look at Altitude, Speed, and position and to first try and select the best maneuver option (aggressive or defense) based on AI skill level. The same I applied to ground attack scenarios, was the aircraft offensive (targets in range, and not being targeted by player or other AI aircraft or AAA) or was it defensive (targets in range but being targeted itself).

Altitude and speed can also be thought of as “energy” as altitude can be turned into speed.

I created an uber aggressive 'Terminator AI' which only chooses from the offensive tactical set, it never goes defensive, so you might want to try it out. With the tweak to Terminator routines, he was getting “cocky” so I implemented a random spinout feature. The Terminator flies so close to the edge now that he has a chance to “spinout”. This is when you can most easily get him.

I also implemented a new AI feature called “Flying Factor (FF)”. This is the knowledge of the AI pilot to fly a given maneuver (the game tracks the experience of every individual AI pilot in successful or unsuccessful sorties) and how well the AI pilot will actually fly the given maneuver (skill). The FF is based on the Skill Level (customer selected in Instant Action Missions and software assigned in the Campaign). The Terminator is assigned a Skill Level of Hero2 (the highest in the game) so that is where he gets his boost in performance (edge). BOB2 has since 2009 had up to 4 mixed skills within a flight Novice, Veteran, Ace or Hero. So you might get lucky and bag a novice with limited abilities, to then be up against an ace who has the full range of AI talents available to it.

AI Maneuver Selection is the KEY

First, the BOBII AI has a special case for selection called “Evasive maneuver selection”. The Evasive maneuver is required when an AI is shot at (either a hit or near miss) or padlocked by an aircraft within visual line of sight and range. The AI will select a defensive maneuver randomly based on the criteria/data for both Player and enemy AI (speed, altitude, and the position of the targeting AI and the AI being targeted with respect to each other). Of course, the AI will evade the players quicker, if and only if, the AI can see the enemy (remember in BOBII, the AI vision is blocked just like the player's vision is blocked by the cockpit/airframe, wings, sun, clouds and distance). So as in real combat, you have the best chance if you surprise the AI by attacking from a blind spot, with altitude advantage, out of the sun or cloud.

The first key decision to be made by the AI is to select either an aggressive or defensive maneuver. This is a complex decision based on the available information on both the Player and the Enemy AI or the friendly AI and the enemy AI. The core data considered for both Player and enemy is speed, altitude, and the tactical position of the targeting AI and the AI being targeted with respect to each other.

After selecting either an aggressive or defensive tactic, then a semi random approach is used to select a category (choose good, choose bad, or choose “neither” good nor bad maneuver). This also makes the AI very human, creating the chance that it will choose a 'bad' maneuver in some circumstances. The chance is higher for novice, and lowest for Hero AI.

Maneuvers are then divided into three parts Vertical, Horizontal, and dive for each of our categories (choose good, choose bad, and choose neither good nor bad maneuver).

In BOBII we have over 80 complex maneuvers for selection (both the aggressive and defensive maneuvers) for the fighters (Spit,Hurri,109.110) and over 50 maneuvers for selection for the ground attack aircraft like the JU87. The following are BOBII’s complex maneuvers. Highlighted maneuvers can be ordered by the player and are also tied to the radio commands so that the player can order their wingmen to perform the maneouver:

MANOEUVRE_SELECT
MANOEUVRE_LOOKROUND (AI will weave and roll to allow it to try to 'check' in blind spots when in the combat area.)
MANOEUVRE_WELDEDWINGMAN
MANOEUVRE_BAILOUT
MANOEUVRE_TOPCOVER
MANOEUVRE_FORCETOPCOVER
MANOEUVRE_LINEABREAST
MANOEUVRE_PINCER
MANOEUVRE_MULTIWAVE
MANOEUVRE_DIVEANDZOOM
MANOEUVRE_INSIDELOOP
MANOEUVRE_LAGPURSUIT
MANOEUVRE_SPLITMANOEUVRE
MANOEUVRE_HEADON
MANOEUVRE_LINEASTERN
MANOEUVRE_VICATTACK
MANOEUVRE_BARRELROLLATTACK
MANOEUVRE_SCISSORS
MANOEUVRE_MILDSCISSORS
MANOEUVRE_TURNINGFIGHT
MANOEUVRE_SPLITS
MANOEUVRE_ZOOMANDDROP
MANOEUVRE_STRAIGHTANDLEVEL
MANOEUVRE_SPINOUT
MANOEUVRE_DIVEFORHOME
MANOEUVRE_GOHOME (Radio command for RTB)
MANOEUVRE_MAKEFORFRIENDLY
MANOEUVRE_MOVEAWAY
MANOEUVRE_QUICKROLL
MANOEUVRE_IMMELMANNTURN
MANOEUVRE_IMMELMANN
MANOEUVRE_ATTACKMYTARGET (Radio command. In ground attack radio menu, if the player has padlocked a target, the AI assigns 2 aircraft if available to attack the padlocked target. If no target is padlocked, the AI assigns 2 aircraft if available to search for ground targets and attack them, within visual range. Similar for air targets in the air attack radio menu context.)
MANOEUVRE_STAYWITHPREY (Radio command which forces AI to ignore eg fighters and concentrate on bombers. The PREY is defined by the mission target type, either fighter, bomber or ground target. Important for BOB because RAF doctrine said pilots were not to deviate from mission objectives to attack targets of opportunity.)
MANOEUVRE_CLIMBFORHOME
MANOEUVRE_STRAIGHTDIVE (for LW, this is a bunt, for the RAF Merlin engine fighters, they will roll to invert, then dive)
MANOEUVRE_OUTSIDELOOP
MANOEUVRE_SHOOTTOFRIGHTEN (eg if AI detects a comrade under attack within range)
MANOEUVRE_SHOOTTOOEARLY
MANOEUVRE_GAINHEIGHT
MANOEUVRE_LAGROLL
MANOEUVRE_EXTENSION
MANOEUVRE_DIVINGROLL
MANOEUVRE_REVERSETURN
MANOEUVRE_SELFASBAIT (or 'drag and bag' in other parlance - AI flying with an AI wingman - one AI will fly steady and slow, luring the player, while its wingman stalks)
MANOEUVRE_JINK
MANOEUVRE_BREAKTURN
MANOEUVRE_LAZYTURN
MANOEUVRE_BREAKLOW
MANOEUVRE_BREAKHIGH
MANOEUVRE_BREAK90
MANOEUVRE_BREAK180
MANOEUVRE_HIGBARRELROLL
MANOEUVRE_PANICTURN
MANOEUVRE_TURNANDRUN
MANOEUVRE_LOWALT
MANOEUVRE_ZOOM
MANOEUVRE_INTERCEPTHIGH
MANOEUVRE_INTERCEPTLOW
MANOEUVRE_GAINSPEED
MANOEUVRE_HEADONATTACK
MANOEUVRE_LUFBERRY (a special manoeuver for the Bf110s)
MANOEUVRE_STEEPDIVE
MANOEUVRE_UPANDUNDER
MANOEUVRE_STALLTURN
MANOEUVRE_SLASHINGATTACK
MANOEUVRE_CLIMBTURN
MANOEUVRE_ROLL360
MANOEUVRE_STRAFFE (if given as a radio command - attack ground targets within visual range, or if player has padlocked a specific target, attack that target)
MANOEUVRE_TRANSITION
MANOEUVRE_PEELOFF
MANOEUVRE_SNAPSHOT
MANOEUVRE_STAYONTAIL (if given as a radio command - attack nearest air target within visual range, or if player has padlocked a specific target, attack that target)
MANOEUVRE_FLYTHROUGHCLOUD (a defensive manouver available if clouds are present - the AI dives for the nearest cloud)
MANOEUVRE_REGROUP
MANOEUVRE_DISENGAGED
MANOEUVRE_SPINRECOVERY
MANOEUVRE_COLLIDE
MANOEUVRE_LAST
MANOEUVRE_ALIGNMENT
MANOEUVRE_DROPANDZOOM
MANOEUVRE_COLLISIONAVOIDANCE
MANOEUVRE_TURNTOHDGANDPITCH (turn to heading, a waypoint command)
MANOEUVRE_SCREWYOUGUYSIMGOINGHOME (when damaged, out of fuel, or low on morale - the AI will still evade if attacked when running for home.).

The AI Performance Criteria/Dependencies

 

Skill Level

The AI performance is dependent on AI Skill Level (which is customer selected in Instant Action and SW assigned in the campaign). BOBII AI do make mistakes (spin, crash, dumb maneuvers, bad judgment, shoot late , shoot bad, etc) which is after all very human.

The skill level of the AI is key in making decisions on about everything with respect to AI performance like (1) how well the AI fly, shoot, shoot fast, slow, accuracy, or not shoot, (2) how well the AI fly, what maneuvers are selected, and how well the AI will fly the chosen maneuver.

Experience

Each AI pilot/aircraft in the game is assigned a unique identifier. Each time that pilot is included in a sortie their experience score increases. If the sortie is successful (enemy destroyed by squadron>friendly lost) experience is also increased. If the sortie is unsuccessful (enemy destroyed<friendly lost) experience remains the same. Experience determines how many maneuvers the pilot can choose from, skill determines how well they execute them (choose good, choose bad, or choose “neither” good nor bad maneuver). This is the Flying Factor.

 

Morale

The game tracks the morale of every pilot and squadron/staffel in the game. Losses during combat impact the morale of a pilot and his unit in real time. If the AI pilot achieves a kill, morale is increased for themselves, and for their unit. If the unit takes losses, the AI pilot morale is decreased. When they land if enemy destroyed by squadron>friendly lost, overall morale is increased for the whole unit. If the sortie is unsuccessful (enemy destroyed<friendly lost) overall morale is decreased for the whole unit. An AI pilot's morale level and any losses of their unit during an actual combat, will increase or decrease the likelihood of the pilot choosing a bug-out maneuver ('RTB', 'turn_and_run', 'dive_for_home', 'screw you I'm going home') or a panic maneuver (panic_turn, maneuver_collide, shoot_too_early).
Random Numbers (Luck of the draw)

The BOBII AI A/C is also dependent on luck (specifically on random numbers). Random number decisions are coded through out the AI code. BOBII’s random approach keeps BOBII from doing the same thing each time. Even something as simple as the direction to start a maneuver (left or right), I will use a random number to decide (why hard code something when you can use a random number).

For example, most BOBII vertical maneuvers use a random number to assign a length of time to for a specific vertical maneuver (Like Zoom). The AI pilot will sometimes cut off early, or late, or somewhere in the middle. If early, the maneuver may carry too much speed, and if late, the AI may slow down so much that control is lost (very human).

The bottom line is that the customer will always see a somewhat different maneuver (very good, good, not so good, and loss of control) both because of the random implementation and the different physic’s parameters (speed, roll, heading, pitch, and overall energy) going into each maneuver.

The very real downside of random numbers is it is very hard to test (not repeatable) and the processing power used.

 

Conditions

The conditions for each maneuver are always different - weather: wind speed, and wind direction will affect airspeed, and damage to AI aircraft affects how well the AI can maneuver or what maneuvers are available. A damaged AI will not fly as well as an undamaged AI as engine damage effects airspeed and structural damage limits control surface response (damage is always taken into account in the AI flying performance"

Edited January 17, 2023 by Mysticpuma

[Mysticpuma]

I think it's pretty easy to see why his Ai was special to play against. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Mysticpuma

[Noisemaker]

I stopped caring about the AI after my first Kuban career.  I worked my way up the squadron ranks from a rookie to Squadron Commander, and my friend Yuri was always there with me.  Yuri was super green when we started together, but I had his back, and as the Huns fell before us, he developed into a pilot of note.  After I became Squadron Commander, he became my deputy, and we would lead our squadron against unbelievable odds.

 

Until that fateful day.

 

It was just another river crossing bombing.  Something we'd done a hundred times before.  This time, however, the Germans really wanted to protect that bridge.  Wave after wave of 109s descended upon us, even before we had reached the target.  Determined to press through and hinder the German counter offensive Yuri and I led our flight to the target while our escorts engaged the first wave.  Yuri targeted the AA emplacements, and I destroyed the bridge in one pass.

 

Our Comrades in our escort flight were struggling with the numbers of the opposition and dropping like flies, so I ordered my flight to climb after the bomb run and turn to assist, or failing that, at least fight our way back to friendly territory.  Our flight separated like branches from a tree limb as we climbed and turned to meet the foe.

It was then that the next flight of 109s fell out of the afternoon sun to our west, directly on our six, and us low on energy from the climb.

Yuri had led half the flight in a right hand turn (He was AI after all), and I the other half left, and we had about 6km between us.  Both of us realising that we had fallen into a trap, we began evasive manoeuvrers and engaged whatever enemy target flew into our sights.  One after another, planes fell from the sky and chaos was the order of the day.  After downing 5 enemy aircraft, the area immediately around me was quiet, and I had lost sight of my squadron mates, though I could hear engagement activity over the radio.  I turned for home, hoping to pick up whatever remnants remained on the way home.

 

It was, if I remember correctly, just after I'd passed the front line that I spotted planes ahead and slightly higher.  One was smoking, the other following in train.  Over the radio came "Sparrow 2, engaging enemy fighter to the west, it's close", as I saw tracers leap forth from the following plane.  Yuri was in trouble.

I pushed my throttle to the max and desperately inched closer to the now weaving fight ahead.  I fired my guns far out of range to try and scare the 109 stalking my crippled friend, but to no avail.  I watched in horror, as several cannon round found their mark, and Yuri's plane exploded and fell to earth in flaming pieces.  No chute was to be seen.

Desperate for revenge, I lined the 109 up and opened fire quickly expending the remainder of my ammunition, damaging him slightly, but not enough.  Apparently he also had had enough of this flight and quickly turned for home, as did I.

 

After landing I discovered that I was the lone survivor of our flight.  Yuri had downed a total of 6 planes to my 5.  We were both awarded Hero of the Soviet Union, him posthumously.

It was on this day that I stopped caring about the AI.  In this war we're all just numbers. 1s or 0s.  Alive or dead, and when your time comes, that number flips, from a 1 to a 0.  There's no time to care.  That bridge that we bombed?  Rebuilt in a couple of days.  Another flight of 1s and 0s sent to destroy it.  We focus on our task until our number is called.

That's why I no longer care about the AI.

I didn't read the original post, is that what we're talking about?

[Crocogator]

I'm going to speculate that the BoX AI, with all of its micro corrections, uses a kind of waypoint system. The waypoints are a set of coordinates x,y,z in the world. One special waypoint might be enemy planes. The AI is aware of its own coordinates and it probably also is aware of a directional vector and velocity. It probably checks every few milliseconds to gauge the vector and velocity by checking between its past and present coordinates.

Using the difference between the vector and the waypoint coordinates the AI manipulates the aircraft until it is getting 'closer' to the objective. It adjusts the engine and control surfaces every few milliseconds accordingly.

If it is a special coordinate, certain conditions are hard coded in like: approach ground target at 300 kph, point directly at coordinate, open fire for 1 second at distance N. Or in the case of friendly aircraft, just fly within N distance of them plus 500 metres alt (escort).

Or re enemy aircraft: point the vector at the enemy aircraft, fire if facing them at distance N (plus gunnery calculations using the planes own coordinates, velocity, vector, and enemy velocity and vector using difference between the enemy coordinates in time). But also the conditions don't a) lose altitude, and b) always run the engine as high as possible. This last one would induce the constant turning behavior I'd guess.

Though I've seen some cool moves once you get right on the enemy's tail: falling leaves and scissors.

[Skycat1969]

Yuri seemed like a helluva guy. The type of man who has two eyes and a recognizable nose squarely planted on an otherwise generic face.

[depapier]

I have no clue what exactly is wrong with AI currently but in the last years it has both improved in terms of dogfighting and became unusable otherwise. Singleplayer, unless it comes to micromanaged highly scripted missions, is dead. Wingmen either don't react or overreact. They get stuck in states. They ignore orders and enemy. They dump all their weapons on one spot - and that spot is either a bridge or aaa position irrelevant for the mission. They go off on their own and attack targets you didn't ask to attack. The list goes on, just as enemy goes on to chase the player forever.  Oh, and there's also a slowdown of time once you have 10 ai planes nearby.

I don't know if this is tied to the structure of career missions, but frankly I don't care anymore.

 

Will mention though, that "ai is difficult" is not an answer. It exists and works in WOFF, WOTR, BMS, even CoDB ai is better. Not to mention older games. Hell, it was better in Il2 BoX.

[354thFG_Leifr]

50 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

I think it's pretty easy to see why his Ai was special to play against. 

 

Buddye created some of the most engaging and persuasive AI I've met in a video game, it was very enjoyable.

If I recall, he was also a programmer of some sort for NASA so... ?

[R33GZ]

At the end of the day, as a user, not a programmer, it doesn't really make any difference, how or why the AI or mission logic works under the hood for me.

 

The result for people like myself is that the AI is largely incapable of taking orders from a flight lead, which in my opinion, is an absolutely critical feature of a combat flight simulator. More important than new clouds, new modules etc etc... we don't even have realistic formations!?

 

I don't know why they don't appear to care about the AI, so can only speculate and my guess would be that for a problem to persist for so long, that it is a built in design problem that should have been solved well before expanding the series and effectively entrenching it.

[354thFG_Leifr]

The AI is pretty dog****, I do agree.

[Rei-sen]

5 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Buddeye, the coder for that Ai, still stands tall in my opinion as the best Ai coder in any WW2 combat flight simulation. 

Wouldn't it be great if he would consider joining any new projects or updating BoX with his talent ?

Would be even better if he worked on CloD AI. BoX I don't care about, lol

[AEthelraedUnraed]

5 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I disagree with that statement. I feel as though you are not distinguishing between orders, which the mission designer certainly has control over, and decisions, which the mission designer has only a tiny bit of control over.

 

The order given is the mission design.  How to carry that out the order is mostly done by the AI.  How to fly the plane is entirely done by the AI.  How to respond to events is also 90% AI.  

 

To influence AI responses to mission events, mission designers have two usable waypoint priorities to influence AI: Low and Medium.  Low means attack other planes and medium means go about your business unless attacked.  The vast majority of meaningful AI decisions are made in the code.  They have to be made in the code because AI must be influenced by mission events such as planes appearing, damage taken, the position of friendly and enemy assets and others.  These data points will change every time the mission is flown.  

And I disagree with that statement. I don't necessarily see mission logic as a way to influence decisions, but rather as a way to finetune mission orders (of course, in highly scripted missions it's often used to influence decisions, but we're not talking about scripted missions here). There is much more to an order than just what's on the surface. If the order is to attack enemy bombers, there's a difference between "do your best" and "only come back after you had a kill or your plane was damaged" à la 1945 Germany. If the order is to attack vehicles, there's a difference between Allied 1945 Armed Recon "attack juicy targets at will" and "only come back if you're out of bullets or don't come back at all" à la 1941 USSR. If you need to attack ships, there's a difference between "turn back if you meet enemy fighters" and "that ship needs destroyed no matter what" à la Japanese Kamikaze pilots.

 

All those behaviours are possible in IL2 (except Kamikazing into a ship (is that a verb?) as there's no PTO, but it's certainly possible to press on no matter what). The choice for none of those behaviours can or should be immediately apparent to the AI. It is, and should be, up to the mission designer to specify the desired behaviour and return conditions - just like those were specified in real life by unit or air force commanders. Yes, the AI should be influenced by mission events such as the ones you specify, but the way in which it is influenced is determined by standing orders, mission orders or even external factors, which are not consistent across all countries/periods/locations/situations/missions and should hence not be left to the AI.

 

Also, I disagree that the third waypoint priority "High" is not useful. I agree that for bombers its usefulness is rather limited as it stops their gunners from returning fire (which I also agree should be fixed), but for fighters I regularly use and have used High Priority waypoints. I've used it more than once to finetune engagement rules.

 

2 hours ago, R33GZ said:

At the end of the day, as a user, not a programmer, it doesn't really make any difference, how or why the AI or mission logic works under the hood for me.

I see what you mean, and I don't disagree, but it is kinda ironic when half of the complaints in a thread specifically about the AI, aren't about the AI at all ?

[RyanR]

My frustrations with AI went away once I started using the PWCG. Things feel more logical/realistic. My wingmen actually do stuff, and the enemy seem to operate in discrete flights.

 

For some reason the native career mission builder does some really weird things. I kept running into 5 to 1 odds. Insane.

 

-Ryan

[9./JG52Gruber]

It would seem there are some rather simple fixes that would improve the AI. To name but a few:

1. If more than two AI are targeting an A/C the next AI finds a new target, or begins escort of other friendly, or returns to mission flight path. (Would address all AI attacking player)
2. AI not to deviate from flight path/mission area by more than XX km. (Would prevent AI following player all the way home)
3. Some random chance that AI flight does not see an enemy flight. (Having flown more hours of multiplayer in CloD/Box than I care to admit, probably 95% of my kills never knew I was there)
4. Friendly AI that calls out contacts (oddly only player A/C seems to do this) or calls out enemy AI targeting player or they need help. (Something other than silence and finding out later they flew into the ground)
5. In general more randomness into AI routines that they will try different maneuvers than what is tied to skill level. These may or may not work out. 
6. Not flying inverted into the ground for no good reason. 

I'm sure there other minor fixes but these would seem to be low hanging fruit to improve the sim in that area. 

[Gambit21]

43 minutes ago, 9./JG52Gruber said:

It would seem there are some rather simple fixes that would improve the AI. To name but a few:

I'm sure there other minor fixes but these would seem to be low hanging fruit to improve the sim in that area. 

 

No offense/no insult intended...but both of these are indications that you are not a coder, nor have spent any time around coders/ flight sims/Developers as they discuss such things.

 

 

[[TWB]80hd]

10 hours ago, Olt_Kloetenburg said:

Basically any believable behavior. Sometimes they spread on their own and go after targets before I told them, sometimes they don't get it at all and fly at my side until they crash or get shot down. My wingman does not care about my health at all and does the same the others do. Ground attack (not bombing) takes ages and they all drop their stuff at the same target. 

 

Sounds extremely similar to many multiplayer experiences

[PaladinX]

I enjoy to fly the endless B.A.T. Campaigns within IL2 1946 where the AI is flying mostly reasonable and my wingmen obey to my orders every time (join, break, attack this, attack that, next waypoint, attack bombers, attack fighters, return home, blablabla...). This is soooo much more immersive.

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,63302.0.html

 

The IL2 BoS games will never reach that state. We know that meanwhile.

Unfortunately - not usable for a good singleplayer experience.

Edited January 18, 2023 by PaladinX

[nachinus]

16 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

I do regularly say it but "Battle of Britain :Wings of Victory II" had the greatest Ai I have ever seen or experienced. 

 

I remember being in a rolling scissors, the enemy then went I to a yoyo, reversed the attack and then I was fighting for my virtual life! 

Next I was down on the deck trying to take down a 108, I had a few hits on it, the Ai was trying to avoid my shots, pulled a tight turn and it stalled into the ground! 

The Ai didn't fly perfectly, it actually stalled as it didn't realise its aircraft limits after the damage. Luckily I was capturing video and it can be seen at the 9 minute 14 second moment here:

 

 

Buddeye, the coder for that Ai, still stands tall in my opinion as the best Ai coder in any WW2 combat flight simulation. 

Wouldn't it be great if he would consider joining any new projects or updating BoX with his talent ?

 

That game gave me the most immersive SP experience in flightsims to this day. Modern ones look great and fly great and are tecnhicaly impressive in many aspects, but man, I wish they were half as ambitious as Wings of Victory in terms of campaign and AI.

[ShamrockOneFive]

8 hours ago, [TWB]80hd said:

 

Sounds extremely similar to many multiplayer experiences

 

You're not wrong ?

 

The AI has some issues but sometimes the charges leveled against it are interesting because I go online and see human pilots doing the same thing. That's by no means a call not to work on the AI as it has some problems to be sure but occasionally the expectations of what real human pilots would do are a bit ... artificial.

[JG27_Steini]

13 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I see what you mean, and I don't disagree, but it is kinda ironic when half of the complaints in a thread specifically about the AI, aren't about the AI at all ?

 

Becaaauuuuse (and again) people (normal customer) dont have the time to dig deep into differcence between AI and mission logic. They bought the game and see that AI is behaving bad. There is no reason to make a difference in argumentation. Even PWCG has its problems with bad AI. Just let it down and dont get triggered every time some said AI, it does not matter. AI is for many more then just how the plane is flying, it is not usefull to devert every SP aspect. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by JG27_Steini

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

19 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

I do regularly say it but "Battle of Britain :Wings of Victory II" had the greatest Ai I have ever seen or experienced. ...

Yes, it's predecessor MiG Alley also had great AI and dynamic campaign. Of course neither were really successful initially and eventually Rowan folded, which perhaps made other developers hesitant to emulate their model. Great that the community was able to make something out of BOB v2. I may have to reinstall it and see how it still runs

[JG27_Steini]

6 minutes ago, [CPT]Pike*HarryM said:

Yes, it's predecessor MiG Alley also had great AI and dynamic campaign. Of course neither were really successful initially and eventually Rowan folded, which perhaps made other developers hesitant to emulate their model. Great that the community was able to make something out of BOB v2. I may have to reinstall it and see how it still runs

 

Ahhh, dont tell us. Doent make it any better ?

[jollyjack]

And it has the tower bridge ! But you cannot buy it anymore, guess the AI shot itself in the foot ...

https://www.matrixgames.com/game/battle-of-britain-ii-wings-of-victory

[FuriousMeow]

Can't it be bought from A2A? https://a2asimulations.com/product/battle-of-britain-ii-wings-of-victory/

 

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

I have the disc version of v2, looks like something of a chore to get it running on Windows 10.

[RyanR]

3 hours ago, [CPT]Pike*HarryM said:

Yes, it's predecessor MiG Alley also had great AI and dynamic campaign. Of course neither were really successful initially and eventually Rowan folded, which perhaps made other developers hesitant to emulate their model. Great that the community was able to make something out of BOB v2. I may have to reinstall it and see how it still runs

 

MiG Alley was fantastic.

 

-Ryan

[Guest deleted@219798]

At the very least there could be varied flying skill levels for AI pilots. From chump to ace. A few weeks ago I ran into McCudden and he sure didn't fly like an ace, he went down in about 15 seconds. It's not unusual to run across ace in PWCG FC missions but they all fly the same as the rest. Often an enemy plane is in a position to attack but doesn't. Some of their manouevres aren't relevant to the situation, oh just climb and dive for the hell of it.

[blitze]

There is a AI Gunnery mod that might be to peoples tastes.  Rockies fire a way out and not so accurate and Vets / Aces hold till up close.  I experimented with it a little before the most recent update and furballs over the Kuban were quite intense and interesting as planes were jockeying to get a good guns position. 

 

Less carnage but more intense flying in combat.

[KevPBur]

7 minutes ago, blitze said:

There is a AI Gunnery mod that might be to peoples tastes.  Rockies fire a way out and not so accurate and Vets / Aces hold till up close.  I experimented with it a little before the most recent update and furballs over the Kuban were quite intense and interesting as planes were jockeying to get a good guns position. 

 

Less carnage but more intense flying in combat.

I've been using that mod for the past few months and my experience matches yours. More intense manouvering with less spray and hope from the ai. But when they do get you in their sites you tend to know about it. It appears to be a definite improvement over the stock settings.

 

I have never flown multiplayer (not since 2004 anyway) so can't compare but I generally find the ai to not be as bad as people suggest. This may be a consequence of me not being much better than them as a pilot?

 

I do try to remember some simple rules to get the most enjoyment out of career mode.

In SP I am playing in their game, if I am doing something different from them then maybe I am in the wrong.

Some mission types are better than others and I know what to expect on each type and how to work with it.

I am getting to understand what commands work better than others are certain times when I am flight leader.

Otherwise, I try to stay roughly in formation and do as I am told and stick to the mission brief.

In a dogfight, I only expect to look out for me as much as I am looking out for them (only so much). I try t ostick to manouvers I suspect a 1940's pilot with only his muscles and guess work would likely do, generally trying to keep well clear of the edge of the envelope and some of the moves I see multiplayer videos.

I adjust the skill and density options depending on my plane, the expected opposition and to try to make the career more realistic or more exciting, whish is not necessarily the same thing.

There are plenty of things I don't like such as the largely absent rear gunners in bombers. So on intersept missions I try to leave the ai to tackle the bombers and I try to protect them from the escorts.

 

AND I certainly do not get the impression that noone cares about the AI. When I have raised specific issues in the appropriate forum with the requested supporting evidence I have usually received appropriate advice or since improvements in future releases.

[smink1701]

Everyone has given up. 

[Guest deleted@219798]

Mostly I fly PWCG missions for FC. Enemy AI is more intent on evasion than attack, and will only do so if they have numbers advantage. In a one on one situation AI nearly always tries to evade. I wouldn't say I'm pulling any fancy stunts only what's needed to get on the tail of an enemy fighter or 2 seater. It's possible to shoot down up to 10 enemy planes in a mission, my plane has had only minor damage in 3 of these missions. Enemy and friendly AI only occasionally shoot any thing down and that includes aces like the von R brothers. I suppose I get so many planes because I try to fire at 100m for fighters and 200m for 2 seaters, but that's nothing to do with AI. I don't really think the devs care about AI or SP, other thing are at the top of their list.

[RossMarBow]

Considering how bad players are in multiplayer.
IL2 AI would have to be powered by AI smarter than human.
Which doesn't actually exist.

 

Check out my youtube channel I have 100s of videos of bad pilots

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by RossMarBow