Rudder centering

[Barn-Owl]

For all of you virtual Aces out there, I have a rather curious question: I fly both desktop and VR and I find centering the rudder (by looking at the slip ball) and flying coordinated to be a real challenge, especially in a climb or in a climb-turn type of dogfight.  It takes lots of rudder foot work.  I do have a HOTAS setup with rudders, but have not figured (other than manually rudder-ing left and right with my feet) the quickest way to center the rudder to fly coordinated, especially in dog fights.  Do any of you utilize rudder trim in dog fights?  Do you have some magical "rudder centering" button that you use, or are you like me mad at the rudder trying to get the ball centered for coordinated flight?

[[CPT]Crunch]

For the most part, excepting cruise and speed, ignore the ball, it doesn't always seem to equal coordinated flight in this game.  I find in max performance turning its an outright detriment. 

[Rjel]

Using rudder trim in the P-51 will keep the ball centered but you have to trim constantly with change of speed. You can visually verify it’s centered also when using the K-14 gunsight. If the diamonds are centered in the circle, you should be trimmed correctly. It does help your aim obviously. 
 

At one time you could have a key set to center the rudder. I imagine it’s still in the settings. Away from my computer so I can’t verify. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Rjel
Added comment

[ZachariasX]

4 hours ago, Friction said:

Do any of you utilize rudder trim in dog fights?

You wouldn‘t want to trim during the dogfight. In the real aircraft it is practically impossible to do so as well as it is not required.

 

What you do is you trim for certain flight regimes with their according engine settings. Optimal flight regimes are known and documented and not for the pilot to find out on the fly. At any setting like takeoff, climb, cruise, full power (read: dogfight), you have a specific power setting. You set the power, the attitude of the plane and then trim it until ball is centered and then let the aircraft fly in that configuration where nomore retrimming is required. Rudder trim positions are even sometimes stated in the PN. When you decide for a new phase of flight, set power and attitude accordingly and trim it.

 

The Mustang needs rudder for coordinated flight. But you don‘t have to take that farther than just give some rudder input along with aileron input, the larger your aileron deflection the larger the rudder input. You can fly some gentle turns to get an idea of how much you need. Once you have a feeling of that, just do that from nor on, dogfight or not. The ball is a tedious thing to follow while maneuvering. You should be able to fly somewhat coordinated without looking at it.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I you want to use to using rudder constantly, train mussle memory, try WW1 crates, using rudder is must to be able max out turn rate. In Camel i don't use ailerons to turn quick,  only rudder.

It is good to have rudder where you feel that it is in the center position. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[AEthelraedUnraed]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

try WW1 crates, using rudder is must to be able max out turn rate. In Camel i don't use ailerons to turn quick,  only rudder.

In the Gotha, the controls are reversed: rudder controlls roll, ailerons control (reverse) yaw

 

I agree with all that's been said above. Trim for a certain speed and power setting you (plan to) use, not to "center the ball" in one specific situation. So yes, you have to continually use your feet if you're turning a lot, but don't worry too much about that; of course it's better to fly coordinated turns, but you won't suddenly lose all your speed or anything if you fly uncoordinated for a couple of seconds.

[RyanR]

In a strange way, my flying with a "twist stick" for rudder control was useful. It's one less set of limbs to deal with, and it was quicker to put rudder inputs in. That made it easy to learn what you "can do" with the rudder. Of course, when I got rudder pedals, it became a whole new challenge to get my feet to do the right thing.

 

As other folks have said, trimming in real life is simply to ease control forces when flying at a set speed. In "combat" with prop planes, the rudder gets used as much as the elevator and ailerons. Speeds change dramatically, and a propeller is an "asymmetric" source of thrust compared to a jet engine. Flying coordinated isn't strictly the rule in this kind of maneuvering.  Yawing the plane is nothing different than AOA..... but sideways.

 

-Ryan

[Dragon1-1]

IRL, you feel any sort of uncoordinated flight as the seat being askew. Coordinated turns are like riding a bike, you use your own sense of balance to inform rudder inputs. A properly configured motion platform makes finding that point a breeze, while without one, your only recourse is to look at the ball.

 

Maybe a solution would be to tilt the plane around your viewpoint when uncoordinated, to replicate that feeling. In VR at least, I think this could feel sort of right.