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Why are my wingmen so rubbish?


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Posted

I'm fairly new to IL-2 Great Battles (but certainly not to flight sims). I recently started a career in a Tempest, and although every mission so far has been a Free Hunt. I've been having fun. I'm only six missions into the career so far, and there's a lot I love - the rain effects, the random encounters on the map, the damage model (I tore an aileron off a Ju-52, only for it to drop down and wreck my propellor, forcing an emergency landing. Amazing!) But the behaviour of my AI partners has been leaving a lot to be desired.

 

In the last mission, a squadron of eight 109s started following us. Rather than engaging, we instead simply sat flying straight and level, as the 109s gradually closed. Eventually, figuring the 109s were probably about to start firing, I broke off to engage.... and the rest of my squadron just carried on flying, presumably looking forward to flying around in circles for hours over the Free Hunt location.

 

In the next mission, two pairs of Fw-190s were flying over our base just as we were taking off! What did my flight do? Ignore them and carry on with the mission...

 

Similarly, if Free Hunt missions are meant to be ground attack (at least from the description), why do my team mates seemingly never attack any ground targets? In one of the early missions, a train came steaming into the town beneath us, which should surely be ripe for the picking? But instead.... we just kept circling, ad infinitum.

 

Is it just me, or has no modern flight sim (or at least those I've tried - IL-2 GB, 1946 and CloD) managed to get AI right? It's such an important part of the game, it's hard to understand how it can be so neglected.

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Posted

AI is hard, though I agree, it very much could be better. DCS had relatively recently introduced excellent dogfighting AI, and they're working on improving other areas. For ground attack, though, AI there are still idiots, at least for now. Unfortunately, in Il-2 they're a bunch of morons, especially when on your side. Enemies aren't super-smart, but enough to be effective.

Posted

I think that in general the Free Hunt missions are flawed. My guess is that the player's flight doesn't know if it should engage as fighters or hold formation as bombers. I've seen a lot of stupid AI behavior all-around though, including escorts that don't engage EAs, and EAs that follow you all the way home. Free Hunts just seem to amplify the worst of AI behavior in the game. I often just attack targets at or near the front lines and then return to base.

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Verbum_Vincet
Posted

That seems to be the nature of the AI beast. Sometimes AI pleasantly surprises, and sometimes they're utterly infuriating. I've seen my wingmen in 109s or 190s decimate the enemy in glorious fashion! I've also seen 4 of them in Spitfires suddenly decide they were kamikazes before diving straight into the ground from 15,000 feet up. Ground attack also seems to be problematic for fighters, at times though I don't know why.

 

They *sometimes* seem to perform better when you simply avoid giving them orders and just let them follow the mission logic. I've resigned myself to just appreciating them for the added immersion and the odd occasion where they actually help me and I think 'nice!'

 

In IL-2 1946, the wingmen seemed to follow orders better and you could give them a much wider range of orders that they would usually follow to some degree. You could even select ground targets via cursor, which I really miss in this iteration. Conversely, AI had a different flight model where they could pull some pretty unrealistic maneuvers. Always a trade-off, it seems.

 

At any rate, if you tire of the never-ending 'free hunt' missions, I'd highly recommend trying PWCG (Pat Wilson's Campaign Generator) for a more immersive and varied campaign experience. It won't improve the AI, but it does allow you to adjust virtually every conceivable probability and option from wingmen/AI pilot experience level to mission type, number/type of targets, loadout, weather, time and so forth. It's easy to install and use, too.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/99-pat-wilson-campaign-generator/  

 

Native campaign definitely has it's good points, but I recently reinstalled PWCG and it's breathed new life into the sim for me.

Posted

I was hoping there might be some way of saying "hey chaps, we've got eight 109s behind us, might want to think about dodging", but as I'm not the flight leader, I don't think I can do anything. Instead they seem to literally just fly straight and level, presumably until the 109s open fire. 

 

I actually did try with PWCG the other day, but I had similarly weird issues. This time I was on the WW1 map, and I think I had a ground attack mission to take out some tanks, but the autopilot seemed to be following a totally different set of waypoint to what was marked on the map...

 

Then my autopilot decided to drop its bombs on a barrage balloon for me... It also kept going after enemy planes, even when I had no ammo left, when all I wanted it to do was take me back to base. Different AI issues I guess, but still bizarre. 

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Posted (edited)

The best SP experience regarding AI are scripted campaigns and missions. The AI is the same, of course, but mission creators know it's limitations and try to circunvent them, creating scenarios in which such limitations aren't so evident. 

 

There are many user made ones in the appropiate subforum plus the official ones. Sadly they are not infinite and I dread the day when I run out of them. I guess I'll have to refly them all.

 

Dynamic campaigns would need a dynamic adaptive tactical AI to feel realistical, and sadly we don't have that. 

Edited by nachinus
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Posted
14 hours ago, Skycat1969 said:

I think that in general the Free Hunt missions are flawed. My guess is that the player's flight doesn't know if it should engage as fighters or hold formation as bombers. I've seen a lot of stupid AI behavior all-around though, including escorts that don't engage EAs, and EAs that follow you all the way home. Free Hunts just seem to amplify the worst of AI behavior in the game. I often just attack targets at or near the front lines and then return to base.

The worse AI behaviour will be found in Armed Reconnaissance missions.  AI will circle the targeted area for ages and if there is an enemy airfield near by - say goodbye to your flight if the enemy takes off to intercept.  One's AI flight will continue to circle with bomb loads when approached by an enemy flight and fail to ditch bombs and defend themselves.

 

To be worked on I hope.

 

Free Hunt - not as bad and other mission types are also not bad as well.  Need better comm's options to allow for coordinating the flight but Early East Front - well, this would be the norm as VVS (Soviets) were lucky to have radios and usually it was the leader that did the talking.  Legacy of the sim I suppose.

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Posted

From my experience it has more to do with mission design than the AI as such, to a certain degree. Like for instance, if you create a simple mission with two opposing flights of fighters taking off and heading to a waypoint with priority set to low, they will seem a lot more alert than when you give them specific orders.

 

@kingspoons "waypoint with priority set to low" means the flight will engage any target of opportunity en route, if they spot it that is. At medium they will only engage if attacked.

Posted

I'm not sure what happened but while dogfighting AI has gotten steadily better over the last two years, the general behavior of wingmen has gone from ok to unplayable. It doesn't matter whether its a quick mission, career or pwcg, the results are either as you describe or a ground attack mission where everyone dumps on one AAA target and rtbs. The fact that wingmen ignore orders, enemy, etc makes anything but heavily scripted missions unplayable. But this has been mentioned for a while now, so I don't even know whether it will ever get fixed. For the time being, I prefer Il2BoX uninstalled.

 

As an aside, i've noticed a tendency on this forum to turn discussions of highly specific technical issues into wide ranging abstract chat about the difficulty of it all. It's not impossible to figure out AI. Not every modern sim has that issue. WOFF/WOTR have their issues, but AI works very well and is plenty challenging. F4 BMS has incredible AI, capable of complex tasks and flexible routines, not to mention ATC integration. DCS sadly remains pretty bad, but that shouldn't be the yardstick for Il2BoX. And yet, as things stand Il2BoX AI is inching closer and closer to DCS. "Two, ejecting."

PatrickAWlson
Posted
17 hours ago, Skycat1969 said:

I think that in general the Free Hunt missions are flawed. My guess is that the player's flight doesn't know if it should engage as fighters or hold formation as bombers. I've seen a lot of stupid AI behavior all-around though, including escorts that don't engage EAs, and EAs that follow you all the way home. Free Hunts just seem to amplify the worst of AI behavior in the game. I often just attack targets at or near the front lines and then return to base.

 

First, I will concede that the AI gets confused.  Having said that, there are rules that the mission maker has some control over.  By designating the next action (usually a waypoint) to be of a certain priority the AI should operate on one of three general concepts:
1. Aggressively attack enemy aircraft.

2. Attack enemy aircraft only if threatened.

3. Ignore enemy aircraft and forge  ahead.

 

3, unfortunately, is  pretty much unusable because it causes any gunners on board to shut down.  I would love to have this option for level bombers but taking away their defensive fire is ludicrous, so I use 1 for fighter missions (missions, not planes) and 2 for everything else.

 

Still, that is the extent of the mission maker's control.  We have no ability to give the AI target priorities.  We have the ability to tell the AI to target an area but it seems to ad lib quite a bit.  No ability to tell AI that you are flying wingman so behave that way.  I experimented with the idea of setting one fighter plane as covering his leader.  Didn't go well.

 

The AI does seem to have a bridge and AA fetish.  

Posted
4 hours ago, blitze said:

The worse AI behaviour will be found in Armed Reconnaissance missions.  AI will circle the targeted area for ages and if there is an enemy airfield near by - say goodbye to your flight if the enemy takes off to intercept.  One's AI flight will continue to circle with bomb loads when approached by an enemy flight and fail to ditch bombs and defend themselves.

I agree. Those were the ones I was thinking of when I commented. I've flown a lot of P-47 Armed Recon missions in Bodenplatte and I know the behavior of which you speak. I'm on a hiatus from the game mid-Luftwaffe Normandy career so "Free Hunt" I guess just stuck in my mind.

Posted (edited)

@kingspoons

Aside from the mission design issues previously mentioned (I recommend you report them in the Bugs sub forum), I think that they hate you, and have agreed amongst themselves to let you get shot down rather than having to frag you on the loo.

;)

Edited by Noisemaker
Forgot the wink to make it clear I'm being tongue in cheek.
  • Haha 3
Posted
7 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

@kingspoons

Aside from the mission design issues previously mentioned (I recommend you report them in the Bugs sub forum), I think that they hate you, and have agreed amongst themselves to let you get shot down rather than having to frag you on the loo.

;)

 

Can't blame them, first chance he got he bad-mouthed them.

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Bloke75Bloke75
Posted

What i've learned so far , from flying with / relying on AI wingmen , is think like this character  ( ie  yourself and your medals  !!  ? ) . 

george-peppard-the-blue-max-photo_1_6cf098f8a361bf37c7217d023093c2a4.jpg

2ebd7c09114b5675e14b88cbe97bc074.jpg

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354thFG_Drewm3i-VR
Posted

And this is why despite wanting to enjoy some single player from time to time, I can only play GB in multi-player without becoming enraged.

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Posted
7 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

And this is why despite wanting to enjoy some single player from time to time, I can only play GB in multi-player without becoming enraged.

 

Dont understand why the SP community was so silent the last decade. Most of us bought all the GB content, becoming enraged again and again. For 1C i can only hope that AI will glance, dont know how long the SP community will support this any longer.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

Dont understand why the SP community was so silent the last decade. Most of us bought all the GB content, becoming enraged again and again. For 1C i can only hope that AI will glance, dont know how long the SP community will support this any longer.

I guess because MP players are more communicative due to the nature of playing with others

Edited by -TBC-AeroAce
354thFG_Drewm3i-VR
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

Dont understand why the SP community was so silent the last decade. Most of us bought all the GB content, becoming enraged again and again. For 1C i can only hope that AI will glance, dont know how long the SP community will support this any longer.

I think the SP community both tends away from online forums like this and is also much more casual and not as savvy. Hence, many, not all, single players wouldn't even recognize wonky AI like multi-players do because we fly with and against real people as well, so not only do we have to become more proficient to be competitive online, but we also have a much wider frame of reference of opponent/friendly behaviors to compare the AI to.

Edited by drewm3i-VR
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

I think the SP community both tends away from online forums like this and is also much more casual and not as savvy. Hence, many, not all, single players wouldn't even recognize wonky AI like multi-players do because we fly with and against real people as well, so not only do we have to become more proficient to be competitive online, but we also have a much wider frame of reference of opponent/friendly behaviors to compare the AI to.

 

So: spend most time in single player missions=less able to notice or understand AI behaviour? That's some solid logic, man.

 

On topic: any ground attack career is a sure tragedy because my own flight invariably gets slaughtered by AA fire. Nevermind the AI being technically unable to actually cooperate, either mutually or with the player...

 

Edited by Picchio
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Posted
9 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

Dont understand why the SP community was so silent the last decade. Most of us bought all the GB content, becoming enraged again and again. For 1C i can only hope that AI will glance, dont know how long the SP community will support this any longer.

I guess because the game dev was reported as limited and always on the verge of collapsing. We're expressing more nowadays because devs stated they will make the game evolve with better foundations.

Posted
10 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

Dont understand why the SP community was so silent the last decade.

 

You are absolutely wrong on that count... there has been constant complaints from the SP crowd for years on many aspects of the single player game in GB. Where have you been?

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

 

You are absolutely wrong on that count... there has been constant complaints from the SP crowd for years on many aspects of the single player game in GB. Where have you been?

 

Yep and the single player content used to be worse - way worse until Jason took over the reins. I remember quite well the attrocious state the game was released in regarding single player. Jason turned that around big time.

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354thFG_Drewm3i-VR
Posted
10 hours ago, Picchio said:

 

So: spend most time in single player missions=less able to notice or understand AI behaviour? That's some solid logic, man.

 

 

That's not my chain of reasoning, in fact here it is:

 

1. Most players are SP only.

 

2. The forum is full of enthusiasts, a substantial portion of which are multi-player only players. It has been said that the forum mostly consists of the multi-player minority and I assert that there is some validity in that claim.

 

3. Enthusiasts are most likely to spend the most time in the game.

 

4. Enthusiasts are most likely to play other Sims, past and present, as well as study WW2 air combat.

 

5. Hence, the forum is peculiarly filled with people uniquely capable and qualified to critique both the AI (which is present both online and offline) and the game itself, since enthusiasts have both more experience and knowledge to draw conclusions about what is realistic or not, than SP only casual players, which encompasses the majority of IL-2 GB players.

Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

That's not my chain of reasoning, in fact here it is:

 

1. Most players are SP only.

 

2. The forum is full of enthusiasts, a substantial portion of which are multi-player only players. It has been said that the forum mostly consists of the multi-player minority and I assert that there is some validity in that claim.

 

3. Enthusiasts are most likely to spend the most time in the game.

 

4. Enthusiasts are most likely to play other Sims, past and present, as well as study WW2 air combat.

 

5. Hence, the forum is peculiarly filled with people uniquely capable and qualified to critique both the AI (which is present both online and offline) and the game itself, since enthusiasts have both more experience and knowledge to draw conclusions about what is realistic or not, than SP only casual players, which encompasses the majority of IL-2 GB players.

 

 

Ah. I sincerely don't remember that from the time I've been in this and other forums and certainly my experience in MP does not reflect your thesis (and above all, not in GB).

But what can I say, I can't wait for AI improvements to be really  promoted and pushed for by the expert MP population and trickle down to that poor and ignorant SP majority.

 

Edited by Picchio
Posted (edited)

Myself and my other BlitzPig friends regularly fly online against AI, and they suck most of the time.  Every once in a while, and seemingly unpredictably, they can put up a good fight, but mostly they are just cannon fodder.  I have no fear or respect for them as I would a human player.  The only way to get a good engagement from them is to go against a far superior aircraft than the one you are flying.  Say P40 vs. 109F4, and sometimes an ace AI in the MC202 can be pretty sporty, but in the end they burn all the same.

Edited by BlitzPig_EL
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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

 

You are absolutely wrong on that count... there has been constant complaints from the SP crowd for years on many aspects of the single player game in GB. Where have you been?

 

I dont said that there was no complaint, i meant that the SP community is less loud the the MP and it's constant FM, DM etc revisions. Every else got that, but thanks for commenting.

Edited by JG27_Steini
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Posted

Since the isolated tests show no problems with AI wingmates following orders, I would need you to describe (and it would be better if you post tracks and the missions) the exact situation: what AI were doing when you've given the order, what order was that, and what did AI instead of following order. There can be some combinations of mission commands and player's orders that cause AI to ignore orders. Or player's orders could be out of AI limitations: for example, when the autopilot is engaged, no orders can be given, and AI will follow mission logic instead; RTB command dismisses player's group, so after that no orders will be followed; when further than certain distance, AI will abandon their orders to join the leader, and so on.

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Posted

So, first of all there are already topics in the relevant bug reporting part of the forum about these issues, and they have not received any response from the team for a long time.

Second, STR: any career mission as a fighter, fly as a wingman, upon encountering any enemy flight will ignore it and continue flying away until the very last moment when its too late. Rate? Nearly all the time.

Third, another STR: any career mission, fly as a flight leader, any ground pounding mission. Fly to the target and observe how your wingmen get distracted by any enemy ground asset. Call them back into formation. Observe they do so, but immediately repeat their behavior of running after whatever they encounter next. It's impossible to lead the flight to the target and back.

Fourth, more STR: any career mission for fighters, fly as a flight leader, lead an air patrol. Upon encountering enemy, order to attack and observe no attack is being done. Alternatively order to follow you as you do and observe they just glue wing and fly with you, ignoring the enemy. The order to attack will only work at like 300 meters, when its too late.

Fifth, more STR: any career mission for fighters, fly as a flight leader, lead an air patrol. Upon encountering the enemy, order to attack, survive the following massacre, recall your wingmen to return to formation, encounter more enemy - and observe them ignoring your orders.

Sixth, more STR: any career mission for fighter-bomber, fly as a wingman on a ground pounding mission. Upon arriving to target area observe your flight bomb either one aaa or bridge, and then run home, ignoring any enemy.

There is more, but basically once AI gets into a state, it's stuck.

Similar behavior, albeit within much better mission design, can be observed in PWCG generated missions.

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I./JG52_Woutwocampe
Posted
3 hours ago, Regingrave said:

Since the isolated tests show no problems with AI wingmates following orders

 

Hahahahahahaha

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Posted (edited)

For me, it was as @depapiersays in his second example. I'm flying as a wingman in an armed reconnaissance mission, and despite a flight of 109s spotting us and giving chase, our flight just keeps flying straight and leve as the 109s slowly gain, until it's too late.

 

It's odd because obviously the 109 AI is working fine. It's just the rest of my flight that are daft. I'll see if I can get a flight record

Edited by kingspoons
354thFG_Drewm3i-VR
Posted

Another thing I've observed recently on one of my last Normandy career missions in a Spit IX out of Lympne on a V-1 ground attack mission is my flight attacking before me giving the order. They did this of their own accord, all dove at once, and all attacked the same target when there were three rail launchers in the area.

 

The next mission was a bomber escort across the Channel with time dilation and as we're circling the bomber base waiting for them to take off, two of the bombers crash into each other and turn into a falling fireball. At that point I exited the mission and gave up on SP lol.

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Regingrave said:

Since the isolated tests show no problems with AI wingmates following orders, I would need you to describe (and it would be better if you post tracks and the missions) the exact situation: what AI were doing when you've given the order, what order was that, and what did AI instead of following order. There can be some combinations of mission commands and player's orders that cause AI to ignore orders. Or player's orders could be out of AI limitations: for example, when the autopilot is engaged, no orders can be given, and AI will follow mission logic instead; RTB command dismisses player's group, so after that no orders will be followed; when further than certain distance, AI will abandon their orders to join the leader, and so on.

 

Hello Regingrave,

 

you allready mentioned the most serious problem. There are certain limitations, many of us realize them as bugs. You might tell us all limitations. We allready know that mission logic is the superior part for AI behavior. So, any further limitation (as you mentioned) is making AI behavior more weird. Knowing all limits would make the things clear for us. Further i dont understand those limits. Why no command while in auto pilot, why rtb cancels all further commands. What is the max distance?

 

Thank you.

 

 

Edited by JG27_Steini
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Posted

Get on the multiplayer and make some friends.

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  • 1CGS
Posted
10 часов назад, JG27_Steini сказал:

Why no command while in auto pilot, why rtb cancels all further commands. What is the max distance?

1. When autopilot is engaged, the plane is completely controlled by AI, and AI leader can't relay any orders outside mission commands, just like in AI plane groups;

2. RTB command disbands player's group, former AI wingmen return to base as lone wolves, thus there is no longer a group to command. RTB order shares the same logic with AI's leaving group on their own in case of critical damage or low fuel, as I recall;

3. Around 5 km minus the time for climbing back to leader's altitude, if leader is higher than the wingmen.

 

18 часов назад, kingspoons сказал:

For me, it was as @depapiersays in his second example. I'm flying as a wingman in an armed reconnaissance mission, and despite a flight of 109s spotting us and giving chase, our flight just keeps flying straight and leve as the 109s slowly gain, until it's too late.

In the generated missions waypoints usually have Medium priority, thus the behaviour of AI will be defensive: they won't engage in a fight, unless the enemy is clearly closing to engage. Waypoints in the partol zone for fighter planes usually have Low priority, so AI planes will behave agressively and engage enemy planes on their own, but en route to the patrol zone they will also behave defensively.

Obviously, bombers and attack planes won't engage enemy fighters unless they're threatened, that's the task for their escort.

 

18 часов назад, drewm3i-VR сказал:

Another thing I've observed recently on one of my last Normandy career missions in a Spit IX out of Lympne on a V-1 ground attack mission is my flight attacking before me giving the order. They did this of their own accord, all dove at once, and all attacked the same target when there were three rail launchers in the area.

By default wingmen will follow the mission independently from the player, unless given a specific order.

The problem of ground targets distribution was adressed in the last update, depending on AI level of the group leader some planes will be supression of AA guns, and the rest should be engaging other targets.

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Posted
4 hours ago, Regingrave said:

In the generated missions waypoints usually have Medium priority, thus the behaviour of AI will be defensive: they won't engage in a fight, unless the enemy is clearly closing to engage. 

Thanks for the additional info! And that does explain why we just ignored the two flights that were soaring above our base at take off in the one mission.

 

On the other hand, though, in that case, I'm guessing what I saw in the other mission may well be a bug (or at least something that needs tweaking), as if a flight of 109s getting to within a few hundred meters of your flight doesn't make them feel threatened, I'm not sure what will! It certainly wouldn't make sense to wait for the first salvo to be fired before taking evasive action, which is what it looked like they were going to do. I didn't dare wait to see how long my flight would leave it before dodging or engaging. Maybe I should have (for science!) 

Posted
12 hours ago, Regingrave said:

1. When autopilot is engaged, the plane is completely controlled by AI, and AI leader can't relay any orders outside mission commands, just like in AI plane groups;

2. RTB command disbands player's group, former AI wingmen return to base as lone wolves, thus there is no longer a group to command. RTB order shares the same logic with AI's leaving group on their own in case of critical damage or low fuel, as I recall;

3. Around 5 km minus the time for climbing back to leader's altitude, if leader is higher than the wingmen.

 

 

5km is nothing, you can fly for some seconds in other directions and you are ouf of command zone? This is far from being reality. The command system is allready less functional and those strange limitations arent make it any better.

Posted (edited)
Quote

Why are the Wingmen - AI so rubbish?

 

-> It looks exactly like in MP when players have a rubbish ping and are rubber banding about....................???

Edited by Livai
  • 1 year later...
Posted

I'm playing a Moscow campaign in the P40 right now and towards the end of the campaign, it's just become unplayable. My last four missions:

 

Protect river crossing: No enemies ever showed up, fly home after circling for something like 20 mins

Attack enemy ground forces: Not a single wingman reacted to the automated attack command, all shot down without firing a shot or dropping a bomb

Attack bomber formation: Not a single wingman reacted to the automated attack command and just circled when I gave a manual command

Intercept ground attackers: By the time we got to the front, the enemy had already retreated, more useless circling and then home

 

Feels like a gigantic waste of time when every single mission is broken in one way or another.

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  • 1CGS
Posted
10 minutes ago, Rogue-9 said:

I'm playing a Moscow campaign in the P40 right now and towards the end of the campaign, it's just become unplayable. My last four missions:

 

Protect river crossing: No enemies ever showed up, fly home after circling for something like 20 mins

Attack enemy ground forces: Not a single wingman reacted to the automated attack command, all shot down without firing a shot or dropping a bomb

Attack bomber formation: Not a single wingman reacted to the automated attack command and just circled when I gave a manual command

Intercept ground attackers: By the time we got to the front, the enemy had already retreated, more useless circling and then home

 

Feels like a gigantic waste of time when every single mission is broken in one way or another.

 

Please post a report with accompanying mission and track files in the Technical Issues forum so the QA team can see what may be the problem. Thanks. ?

Posted

Well, historically it's not unheard of that ground forces mop up the enemy before the air support can arrive, or that you get tasked with protecting something against an expected attack which in the end doesn't happen. However, I don't think this was intended.

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