Collectors Maps

[deathmisser]

I was wondering if we could start seeing collectors maps any time soon as we got collectors aircraft.

Plus we got a huge ton of aircraft now with desert camo but there's no desert maps to go with them.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

Most definitely not "any time soon."

 

But some day? Perhaps. I guess it depends on what exactly their "new product" is, and if it's a separate series, how much time and effort they're prepared to put into additional collectors maps.

[sevenless]

My guess is, that maps without integrated career modes will gather dust very fast, hence are commercially unattractive considering the massive work which is necessary for their creation and won´t be a product anytime soon in the future.

[Voidhunger]

no thanks, i would rather pay for working radio or better engine without time dilation. not going to spend money on this absolete engine.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

15 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

no thanks, i would rather pay for working radio or better engine without time dilation. not going to spend money on this absolete engine.

Could you please explain how time dilation is related to the engine?

[Avimimus]

31 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Could you please explain how time dilation is related to the engine?

 

Well, if they implement an ability to save and load mission states part-way through the mission (a direction DCS is going in) then time-skip could replace time-dilation. It is probably doable within the current engine though.

 

To answer your question though - the engine will slow down time dilation on older machines (e.g. 8x will actually be 2x) as the engine prefers to not lower physics fidelity when running faster... and old processors can't keep up. If we were willing to drop physics/flight-model quality significantly I'm sure they could give us a reliable 16 times speed... but we don't want that.

 

 

2 hours ago, deathmisser said:

I was wondering if we could start seeing collectors maps any time soon as we got collectors aircraft.

Plus we got a huge ton of aircraft now with desert camo but there's no desert maps to go with them.

 

I have a feeling this would have to be for a 'Tank Crew' sized project (i.e. an entire 3rd party led module)... or at least something half that size.

 

The reason is that the developers prefer to give single player access to all objects, and multiplayer access to all objects and maps in order to ensure compatibility and keep server populations healthy... so this makes it difficult to monetize AI objects and maps separately from campaigns and playable aircraft/vehicles. I personally think this is the right decision on their part.

 

That said, I really want to see a 3rd party tackle the Gulf of Venice/Isonzo  But they'd have to make the aircraft 3d models too! ?

Edited January 13, 2023 by Avimimus

[deathmisser]

8 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

I have a feeling this would have to be for a 'Tank Crew' sized project (i.e. an entire 3rd party led module)... or at least something half that size.

 

The reason is that the developers prefer to give single player access to all objects, and multiplayer access to all objects and maps in order to ensure compatibility and keep server populations healthy... so this makes it difficult to monetize AI objects and maps separately from campaigns and playable aircraft/vehicles. I personally think this is the right decision on their part.

 

That said, I really want to see a 3rd party tackle the Gulf of Venice/Isonzo  But they'd have to make the aircraft 3d models too! ?

What I hear is that FC 3 will be the last one iIrc so the man power from there will hopefully complement the main team.

On terms of TC I don't know how successful that is as most people will just play ether WT or ArmA. 

 

I don't mind seeing mini modules like 4 normal & 2 collector aircraft. 

 

It's just seems a pity to waste those deserts skins for a theatre that we might never see.

btw it just pains me that we almost got Malta. 

[CountZero]

for sure no, well get more collector airplanes and thats it, any new map will be in next new project, only map here you can expect are player made ones, and that takes years and years just check when Finland map was started and it is only new map you can expect.

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

25 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

Well, if they implement an ability to save and load mission states part-way through the mission (a direction DCS is going in) then time-skip could replace time-dilation. It is probably doable within the current engine though.

I'd love such a feature - but it's wholly unrelated to time dilation, which is the issue discussed in your second paragraph  

 

26 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

To answer your question though - the engine will slow down time dilation on older machines (e.g. 8x will actually be 2x) as the engine prefers to not lower physics fidelity when running faster... and old processors can't keep up. If we were willing to drop physics/flight-model quality significantly I'm sure they could give us a reliable 16 times speed... but we don't want that.

As the Devs have said more than once, including in the latest interviews, time dilation is a result of design choices. Voidhunger states that time dilation is a result of the engine being "obsolete," which is uninformed and incorrect.

 

In one of the latest interviews, the Devs state that their vehicle physics code is very well optimised => not an engine problem.

However, they also state that they want to have vehicles run high-fidelity physics => a design choice and completely unrelated to the engine.

 

Anyhow, the whole issue is completely unrelated to the OP's question whether there'll be collector maps and is just meant to bash the current engine.

 

10 minutes ago, deathmisser said:

What I hear is that FC 3 will be the last one iIrc so the man power from there will hopefully complement the main team.

FC is largely being developed by a 3rd party, so the manpower won't ever complement the main team

[sevenless]

Just now, CountZero said:

 just check when Finland map was started and it is only new map you can expect.

 

 

I´m pretty sure that one will end up as Odessa did.

[Guster]

I don't believe it's a zero-sum game where certain collector items would bring development of other features to a complete halt. I think it's a valid point, and now that we have all these wonderful desert skins (and a dust filter for the Hurri), even just a small Lapino-sized "somewhere in the desert" would be nifty.

[Voidhunger]

14 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

As the Devs have said more than once, including in the latest interviews, time dilation is a result of design choices. Voidhunger states that time dilation is a result of the engine being "obsolete," which is uninformed and incorrect.

 

Design choices? So they designed their graphic engine to be not able to handle more objects? and you believe that.

Pfff If i remember correctly they tried to solve this issue or improve this issue many years ago, it helped i bit but not much.

And Jason said that every engine has its limits, obviously this engine cant handle too much objects.

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

4 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Design choices? So they designed their graphic engine to be not able to handle more objects? and you believe that.

This has exactly zero to do with the graphics engine. That would have *completely* different symptoms than time dilation. Before drawing uninformed conclusions, at least spend a minimum amount of effort to understand what's going on and how an engine works.

[Voidhunger]

5 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

This has exactly zero to do with the graphics engine. That would have *completely* different symptoms than time dilation. Before drawing uninformed conclusions, at least spend a minimum amount of effort to understand what's going on and how an engine works.

Ok thanks

 

[Avimimus]

What would be really great:

 

The Devs partnering with third parties to upgrade existing maps (particularly Rhineland and Normandy). IMHO, a 3rd party could create a Normandy 1942-1943 map with seasons, more accurate representations of British targets, and two to four flyable aircraft... it'd be a good product and probably quite doable.

[Jade_Monkey]

Maps could take a couple of years each, so not sure they are the best bang for the buck.

 

There was a user made Finland map that we haven't heard much from, hopefully that project is still alive.

[Juri_JS]

I wish someone would finish the Odessa map. In the screenshots it looked quite advanced and a few objects from the map are already in the game.

 

 

Starting a completely new map project that would take 2 or more years to finish wouldn't make much sense at this point.

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Juri_JS

[Alan_Grey]

Once upon a time, the Murmansk map was also worked on


 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/3109-мурманск-работа-над-картой/

 

[deathmisser]

3 hours ago, Alan_Grey said:

Once upon a time, the Murmansk map was also worked on


 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/3109-мурманск-работа-над-картой/

 

Not to be ungrateful but what would Finland bring new to the game ?

 

 

Most of the content I seen are ones that can be used in other modules.

So like the G-6 that can be on like 3 modules, Ar 234 for 2 modules & the He 111 H-6 can be in all of them.

I just don't see how an Finland module can work as most aircraft would be out of date near mid war.

And modules that got aircraft only for that one module would look rather out of places for other.  

 

The only aircraft I would see working in other modules would be the H-75 or the M.S series.

 

But hey still be excited for them.

[dbuile]

I got a little depressed the other day in the Mission Editor.  The Rheinland map, ohhh, I can scroll beyond the boundaries! Northward, and there was Bremen and Hamburg and Heligoland Bight and Denmark...  I wish I could fly He-115s around the coast!

 

Maybe the distances get less accurate, if the map is a flat depiction?

Edited January 14, 2023 by dbuile

[Noisemaker]

We got Velikie Luki as a great third party map for free, but unfortunately, no content for it (SP campaign, collector vehicles/planes).

[SCG_motoadve]

13 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

We got Velikie Luki as a great third party map for free, but unfortunately, no content for it (SP campaign, collector vehicles/planes).

The best map IMHO, but not even AQM , every now and then Wings of Liberty uses it, but for SP, there is almost nothing, which is kind of sad.

JadeMonkey did a campaign for the Hurricane, but have not seen any other content.

[Zeev]

23 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

no thanks, i would rather pay for working radio or better engine without time dilation. not going to spend money on this absolete engine.

 

+1

Collector map idea sounds odd

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, deathmisser said:

Not to be ungrateful but what would Finland bring new to the game ?

 

A bunch of additional aircraft potentially? Especially now that the devs are inviting third party collaboration?

 

Also interesting terrain? There are big differences between Moscow and Finland/Karelia.

 

  

7 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

Starting a completely new map project that would take 2 or more years to finish wouldn't make much sense at this point.

 

Yes, I suspect - if they are working on new map/landscape technologies it might make sense to wait for those.

 

That said a 1942-1943 Channel map (with upgrades to English targets I mentioned) or finishing Odessa or Murmansk (if someone could get the existing work and rehabilitate those projects) might make sense.

[Noisemaker]

38 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

The best map IMHO, but not even AQM , every now and then Wings of Liberty uses it, but for SP, there is almost nothing, which is kind of sad.

JadeMonkey did a campaign for the Hurricane, but have not seen any other content.

I'd love to use it, even if just AQM.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'd love a Finland map.  I really miss the Brewster.

 

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Noisemaker said:

I'd love to use it, even if just AQM.

 

Yeah, Velikie Luki does have that one weird invisible tree in the lake though.

[nachinus]

As long as the map comes with enough missions and campaigns to enjoy it for many hours I would certainly consider buying such DLC.

 

But if it comes out as a mere scenery for quickmissions and mp, then meh.

[357th_KW]

I'd love to see additional maps, even if they were small compared to the current main maps.  Just the other day I jumped on berloga and they had swapped the scenario onto Kuban, and it felt fresh and different.  The key would be maps that allow for some interesting scenarios with the planes we have, or are on the way. 

 

Odessa would be great since the IAR is on the way.  Malta would be amazing.  The Norwegian fjords would be awesome.  Some stretch of North Africa etc.

[deathmisser]

1 hour ago, nachinus said:

As long as the map comes with enough missions and campaigns to enjoy it for many hours I would certainly consider buying such DLC.

Aye true considering we got over 50 aircraft some might need tweaking for some theatres but I think we are at a stage now where they can do that now.

[Hoss]

On 1/13/2023 at 7:59 AM, sevenless said:

My guess is, that maps without integrated career modes will gather dust very fast, hence are commercially unattractive considering the massive work which is necessary for their creation and won´t be a product anytime soon in the future.

Why? DCS seems to be able to build and sell maps without an aircraft or conflict in particular. I don't see any revenue venture going on right now with IL2 GB..... IAR-80S, and the Spitfire are still to be released. Nothing more after that, maybe some token Tank, or biplane from TC, FC. At this point since I don't play TC or FC, I've stopped buying content, to help support GB as a whole. Using the IL2GB paradigm of no content unless it's a complete "Battle" is outdated. Crimea, is a great example..... no planes needed, but lots of new battles. They could build early French, Italian, RAF planes to use on said maps. They need to figure out something...... start thinking with new ideas to bring in money and new blood.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Give me a Kuban map with palm trees on the coastlines, dense "jungle" everywhere else, paint the snow green, and get me a Ki-43, Ki-61, an IJAAF attack aircraft of some kind, P40s with proper engine limits, same with the P39, an early P38, and with the A20, and Spitfire V we already have, and I'll be in business.

[deathmisser]

On 1/13/2023 at 7:16 PM, Avimimus said:

What would be really great:

 

The Devs partnering with third parties to upgrade existing maps (particularly Rhineland and Normandy). IMHO, a 3rd party could create a Normandy 1942-1943 map with seasons, more accurate representations of British targets, and two to four flyable aircraft... it'd be a good product and probably quite doable.

I just found this in the Cliff side of the series.

 

 

So that means that there could update the channel map to be in 42-3.

 

But then again I did just find these. 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by deathmisser

[sevenless]

4 hours ago, Hoss said:

 They need to figure out something...... start thinking with new ideas to bring in money and new blood.

 

Yes, I am curious as well which way they plan to go. As for Crimea, I am with you. That map including 2 career branches would make a lot of sense. Branch 1 would be the 1942 battles, Sevastopol etc. and Branch 2 could be the 43/44 battles. I would buy it only to have the VVS careers proceed into 1944 terrain when they began to kick the luftwaffels asses. Nearly all already released planes could be re-used and they could integrate some new 1944 VVS gear. 

[Avimimus]

4 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Yes, I am curious as well which way they plan to go. As for Crimea, I am with you. That map including 2 career branches would make a lot of sense. Branch 1 would be the 1942 battles, Sevastopol etc. and Branch 2 could be the 43/44 battles. I would buy it only to have the VVS careers proceed into 1944 terrain when they began to kick the luftwaffels asses. Nearly all already released planes could be re-used and they could integrate some new 1944 VVS gear. 

 

There was also a fuelling station at Sevastopol for Bv-138 and Ar-196 Seaplanes - which could be pretty neat additions once the seaplane tech gets imported for Flying Circus III/IV... I believe there were even several months where a couple of units were stationed there (i.e. it became a full seaplane base).

[Noisemaker]

17 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Yeah, Velikie Luki does have that one weird invisible tree in the lake though.

It's a flight sim, not a fishing sim...

Stay off the water

 

[R33GZ]

On 1/14/2023 at 5:20 AM, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Could you please explain how time dilation is related to the engine?

I don't mean to be rude... but could you please explain how it isn't?  I'm certainly no software engineer, but as the 'engine' is responsible for the running of said software, it seems logical that it is also where the limitations are. I've certainly never experienced time dilation on any other gaming software.

 

I'm not taking the piss for once... I really would like to know, or maybe be pointed in the right direction.

[BFBunny]

On 1/13/2023 at 2:38 PM, deathmisser said:

I was wondering if we could start seeing collectors maps any time soon as we got collectors aircraft.

Plus we got a huge ton of aircraft now with desert camo but there's no desert maps to go with them.

 

 

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

15 hours ago, R33GZ said:

I don't mean to be rude... but could you please explain how it isn't?  I'm certainly no software engineer, but as the 'engine' is responsible for the running of said software, it seems logical that it is also where the limitations are. I've certainly never experienced time dilation on any other gaming software.

 

I'm not taking the piss for once... I really would like to know, or maybe be pointed in the right direction.

Of course I can, nothing rude about asking. Naturally, it's an "engine problem" in that literally everything is rendered/calculated/whatever by the engine. Given that that goes for every possible problem, it makes the whole phrase "related to the engine" quite meaningless. Therefore, I take it to mean something a little more specific, i.e. issues caused by bugs or mistakes in the implementation or, as Voidhunger specifically talks about the engine supposedly being "obsolete", bad performance because "obsolete" technologies are used.

 

Let's first discuss why TD isn't related to the graphics engine especially, as Voidhunger claims in one of his posts above. If it were a graphics engine issue, it would manifest in framerate issues (lower FPS, hiccups, etc.). However, depending on the mission and my graphics settings, I can have times where I run 120+ FPS but experience severe TD, or times where I barely reach the upper-20s FPS but can use 8x speedup. This shows they're not related.

 

Then on to what the issue may be. The Devs have stated that TD is related to the fact that all vehicles (aircraft or otherwise) use the full physics and AI systems at all times. I see no reason to not believe that, as the TD symptoms are consistent with physics indeed being a major issue. Physics simulations can be pretty computationally demanding, and they don't scale very well. If your physics engine is tuned for e.g. 50 updates per in-game second, you cannot simply switch to 25 updates per in-game second to save performance. Doing so would lead to incorrect and erratic physics, possibly even so-called "exploding" physics where you'd see an aircraft shoot to outer space. Hence the reason for TD: if you don't have enough computing power for these 50 updates per in-game second, the only viable solution is to "scale" the in-game second until you do. This means that the computational demand of a physics engine scales linearly with both the amount of aircraft and time compression. This is consistent with what I see on my own rig: I get a maximum of a little over 4x time compression with 4 aircraft, while I barely get any time compression anymore if there are 4x4=16 aircraft in the air.

 

I'm not claiming that this is the only problem, and it's certainly possible some of the additional issues, whatever they may be, *are* related to implementation problems in the engine, but so far I haven't seen any indications of that (except perhaps some testing by a user a while back that pointed to possible isues with the (3rd party) UI framework, which I concede would be engine issues if confirmed - though not in the part created by 1CGS).

 

To conclude, it's very plausible that TD is in a large part caused by the fact that all vehicles use full physics at all times (same goes for AI, although I've not as extensively discussed it). This is a conscious design choice. Furthermore, the Devs have stated that their physics engine is already very well optimised and that little additional performance can be gained there - in other words that the physics engine is well designed within the limits of the requirements. Based on what we know, it is therefore not a problem caused by implementation errors or obsolete tech, but by design choices and a possible mismatch between what the Devs want to develop (realistic and full physics for AI aircraft) and what the players want (good performance, lots of AI). Taking my definition of "engine issues" from my first paragraph, it is not one.

 

Besides the full AI physics being a conscious design choice, the Devs have also stated that they stand behind that choice and don't want to compromise there. Therefore, believing that the TD issue will somehow disappear into thin air if only a new engine is used, is nothing short of building castles in that very same thin air.

 

I realise I may have come across somewhat hotheaded earlier, but I'm getting a bit annoyed by all those people sheepishly repeating other people who are sheepishly repeating that the engine is old and that whatever their particular pet peeve is, is surely a result of the engine which will magically be fixed in the grand brand new engine that the team is building completely from the ground up - and that that issue can only be fixed by means of that magical new engine. Most of them barely even know what a game engine is, how it works or what entails building one, and even less of those people have any experience programming anything whatsoever.

Edited January 16, 2023 by AEthelraedUnraed

[Enceladus828]

A collector map would pretty much only work for areas where we have the planes, just not the maps. Examples being Slovakia and Hungary 44-45, Kursk, Battle of Italy Part 1 (Gustav Line) and Battle of Italy Part 2 (Gothic Line) plus the G.55 and/or Re. 2005