Getting back into il2, which stick to buy

[Junneh]

Hey guys.

Ive played some flightsims before but have been out of it for a year or 2 now.

In the time I still played, I enjoyed most Il2 and the dcs helicopters.

I want to get back into it and seeing I like those 2 things most a long stick makes most sense to me (il2 is very sensitive and well I dont need to explain helicopter i think)

 

So there is 3 options as we all know, Im located inside VAT EU land so pricing also plays an important part here, out of the big 3, what can u recommend me with these kinda prices:

 

Virpil mongoos t50cm2 base and stick + extension; 591.46

Virpil warbrd (no good for extension?) + t50 grip + extension 493.45

VKB Gunfighter mk3 + mcg pro ru + extension 480,45

 

Then there is winwing but its kind of out already cus the pricing is not interesting with EU VAT + shipping added (and having to claim warranty in china...)

 

Is VKB my obvious choice here?

 

Also, are there any people here that are into heli's and il2 that use a non extended cheaper stick (ie gladiator evo?) can you recommend this instead?

 

Before i used a 10 cm extended warthog center stick, while ok, the gimbal was kinda crap and the handle too heavy.

[Crocogator]

I'm biased because I like my own choice of old FFB stick, and I'm provide the disclaimer that I don't fly helos, but apparently an FFB stick (e.g. Microsoft SideWinder Force Feedback 2 with extension) is the ticket for flying helos. You won't get the premium feel though.

[dburne]

Virpil CM3 Base and Alpha Prime metal grip.

Hands down.

[DragonDaddy]

I have sticks from VKB, Thrustmaster and Microsoft. The VKB is an excellent product. I highly recommend anything from them if you have the budget. 
 

The Microsoft stick is FFB2 and the only stick I have used for the last several years. To me, it’s just not enjoyable flying without the feedback. 
 

Although good, basic sticks, I was not impressed with the Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas or the T-16000M. 

[slikslik]

I have the VKB Gunfighter MK 3 with extensions etc. and I couldn't be happier.  I have the MSFF too but the control doesn't feel real enough.  The MK 3, when properly set up has a much more authentic feel.  You can feel the weight of the aircraft in combat, landing etc.  VKB is my recommendation.   Good luck my friend   take care   Eddie.

[1Sascha]

On 1/12/2023 at 12:58 AM, dburne said:

Virpil CM3 Base and Alpha Prime metal grip.

Well... if you can live with all that RGB stuff on it and the not-very-flight-sim-like appearance.

I've only ever tried the non-Prime Alpha and that thing felt pretty sweet. Although I didn't much care for the looks, but that's just personal preference.

 

Personally, I'd prefer the VKB MCG Ultimate for a metal grip, but that Virpil CM3 base sure is tempting. Alas, no way to mount that VKB grip to a Virpil base.

 

 

On 1/11/2023 at 8:53 PM, Junneh said:

Virpil mongoos t50cm2 base and stick + extension; 591.46

Virpil warbrd (no good for extension?) + t50 grip + extension 493.45

VKB Gunfighter mk3 + mcg pro ru + extension 480,45

 

Virpil WarBRD base isn't recommended for extensions IIRC.

 

@Junneh EDIT: Re the Gunfighter's current price in the EU-store: The Russian labeled MCG Pro is still listed at €417 plus shipping whereas the English labeled one is now at a whopping €498 plus shipping. They raised the prices on that thing not too long ago but are still selling the remaining stock of RU-labeled ones at the old price. Once that stock's gone, the RU-variant will most probably also go up to 498. So if you want that thing, now would be the best time to buy it.

Also: They still have a promo-thing going and you can get 5 percent off with the code "subliminal" (without the "", obviously), so you could get the RU variant for under €400 plus shipping. That's what I paid and that was around €200 less expensive than the Virpil alternative I was considering, so ...

 

 

Since even in this price segment, money might be a consideration, I don't think you'd go wrong with the "cheaper" Gunfighter/MCG Pro combo. I'm very happy with mine, especially now that I added a 100mm extension. Still works great with the UCM-S mount and vastly improves feel and handling IMO. 200mm would be too long for this mount though - you'd need the UCM-L or a long Monstertech. Some goes for Virpil mounts, I guess. Might be able to get away with a short mount for their shorter extensions, but 200mm would mean you need a long mount. Or some sort of DIY, gimbal-on-the-floor mounting solution.

 

^ MCG Pro with 100mm extension on VKB UCM-S. I did set up the mount "one hole longer" than the intended longest setting. I realized that this could be done with the existing hole patterns, tried it out to see if it was unstable, found that it felt just as stable as the recommended longest setting and stuck with it. Been using it like this for weeks now and it feels just as rock solid as ever.

 

Money no object, I *think* I would go for the Virpil CM3 base, the T50/CM2 grip for DCS and the WarBRD grip for WW2-stuff - like I said: I don't much care for the looks and styling of the Alpha/Prime. Judging only from pics, I think the Virpil base/gimbal might be of even higher quality than the VKB and now that they added clutches, it's actually a viable alternative to the Gunfighter. One reason (besides money) why I went VKB GF and not Virpil was that I absolutely wanted those clutches. I came from the VKB Evo and didn't want to have to go without clutches/dampening on my next stick.

 

So, if you want to go Virpil, do go for the CM3 base, since that's the only one with clutches in their lineup.

 

 

S.

Edited January 13, 2023 by 1Sascha

[slikslik]

I bought the MK 3 for the same reason as 1Sascha.  Being able to adjust clutches.   What I like about the new Virpil base, is the ability to adjust the clutches from the top of the base, and without having to open up the base. as the MK 3 does.  If I somehow break or damage my MK 3 beyond repair, I would buy the Virpil.  Unless, that is, VKB release a new base with access to clutches etc. from the outside of the base.  Both VKB and Virpil are a safe bet for flight simmers.  I'm just staying loyal to VKB.   For now.   Take care all   Eddie.

[dburne]

1 hour ago, slikslik said:

I bought the MK 3 for the same reason as 1Sascha.  Being able to adjust clutches.   What I like about the new Virpil base, is the ability to adjust the clutches from the top of the base, and without having to open up the base. as the MK 3 does.  If I somehow break or damage my MK 3 beyond repair, I would buy the Virpil.  Unless, that is, VKB release a new base with access to clutches etc. from the outside of the base.  Both VKB and Virpil are a safe bet for flight simmers.  I'm just staying loyal to VKB.   For now.   Take care all   Eddie.

 

I have loved my Gunfighter Mk III for sure, the ease of access though is what has swayed me to order the new Virpil offering CM3. Anxious to try it out whenever I receive it. I like to adjust things to try them out but got tired of having to take my stick off and work on the Gunfighter by opening it up. Then of course to test each little adjustment meant having to remount the stick, test, then take apart again.

Edited January 13, 2023 by dburne

[1Sascha]

On 1/13/2023 at 7:36 PM, slikslik said:

What I like about the new Virpil base, is the ability to adjust the clutches from the top of the base, and without having to open up the base. as the MK 3 does.

No argument from me and another reason (that I'd forgot to mention in my wall-o-text response up there) why I would strongly consider the Virpil CM3 now. Especially since they raised the price on the GF MCG Pro quite considerably and moved it much closer to the Virpil CM3 + T-50 CM2 grip combo.

 

Outside of a sale, that combo is now €553 incl tax and shipping for me, whereas the GF MCG Pro is now a little over €500 incl tax/shipping and a little under €500 as long as their 5% promo code is sill working. So worst case scenario for the Virpil is "only" €60 of additional cost.

 

Still: For the old price of €417 + €10 shipping (at which they still sell the RU-variant of the grip at the moment), I'd still go GF, despite what I'm about to write now:

 

Re clutch-adjustment: With the GF mounted underneath the UCM-S (as convenient and cool looking as that solution is), getting to and then adjusting the clutches is a bit of a nightmare. Since the screws that hold the dust-cover also hold the gimbal housing to the base-plate in that configuration, you can't simply remove the grip and dust-cover and then work on the clutches, but you have to hold the housing in place while removing the screws, then remove the cover, then screw at least two of the screws back in, then attach the grip and only then can you start manipulating the clutches. And after that, you need to take off the grip again, loosen those screws again, hold the housing in place while you re-attach the dust-cover, then secure it and the base with the four screws and finally re-attach the grip.

You can't run the stick without the housing in place and screwed in fairly securely, because it holds a PCB that's connected to all the axes-/button sensors and connects to the main plug that links the gimbal to the black box. So even though the gimbal itself is secured to the base-plate by another set of four screws that you don't need to remove, there's no way around the whole "take screws out, remove dust-cover, awkwardly hold housing in place then re-attach it" bit of the operation.

 

And an operation it is... having performed it numerous times now, being able to simply pull out two rubber plugs, insert a screwdriver and adjust away would be worth the extra €60 for me.

 

Perhaps I'm just too stupid to see an easier way of doing this - but I don't think so...

 

On 1/13/2023 at 8:55 PM, dburne said:

Then of course to test each little adjustment meant having to remount the stick, test, then take apart again.

 

That's why I now do it the way I describe above. There's no point of messing with the clutches unless you can verify your changes while the stick is mounted as it would be while flying. The way I do it means I have the stick in front of me (minus the dust-cover) and can adjust to my heart's content and verify the changes until I'm satisfied with the result. Only *then* will I take it apart again and re-assemble it to normal config (with dust-cover mounted).

 

That's why it's a bit baffling to me that they didn't include some sort of access points through the dust-cover to get to those clutches like you can on the CM3. Perhaps it just isn't physically possible with the way the gimbal/housing/mount/cover are constructed. It's also probably not a huge deal with the gimbal set up in desktop mode... but I really have to wonder if anyone's using this stick (especially with the MCG grip) in that configuration.

 

S.

Edited January 15, 2023 by 1Sascha

[slikslik]

I totally understand and agree with you 1Saschaw.   I can't see why VKB have not released a new base with similar easy access to clutch adjustments etc. It would be nice to hear from a VKB rep about any plans for an upgraded base in the very near future.  By very near, I mean in the next 30 days.   I'm sure VKB is aware that Virpil is kicking their ass right now, so if they have no response in the VERY near future, I'm obviously switching to Virpil.  I remember seeing a video of a guy that drilled holes at the top of the MK 3 base that let him do exactly what Virpil has done.  He just stuck a couple of pieces of rubber or used a washer to cover the holes after adjusting the clutches.  Think I can find that video again?  Not yet.  I know for sure what I saw, so I'll keep on looking or it will drive me nuts.  Anyone here familiar with that drilling video?  Something similar?  If I find it, I'll post it here.   Thanks all   take care   Eddie..  

[dburne]

6 hours ago, slikslik said:

I totally understand and agree with you 1Saschaw.   I can't see why VKB have not released a new base with similar easy access to clutch adjustments etc. It would be nice to hear from a VKB rep about any plans for an upgraded base in the very near future.  By very near, I mean in the next 30 days.   I'm sure VKB is aware that Virpil is kicking their ass right now, so if they have no response in the VERY near future, I'm obviously switching to Virpil.  I remember seeing a video of a guy that drilled holes at the top of the MK 3 base that let him do exactly what Virpil has done.  He just stuck a couple of pieces of rubber or used a washer to cover the holes after adjusting the clutches.  Think I can find that video again?  Not yet.  I know for sure what I saw, so I'll keep on looking or it will drive me nuts.  Anyone here familiar with that drilling video?  Something similar?  If I find it, I'll post it here.   Thanks all   take care   Eddie..  

 

Still recommend going with the newer Virpil CM3 stick at this time. VKB is not going to have an updated Gunfighter for some time. They have been advertising their new TECS throttle for a few years now, and they have recently stated no more new products until after they get TECS out. And it ain't around the corner either by far.

 

I love my Gunfighter don't get me wrong, but Virpil is seriously kicking butt with their equipment at this time. I have the new CM3 stick on order myself.

[FTC_Tazz]

I have 2 complaints about the T50 CM2 grip:

1. The brake lever is plastic and has a tendency to flex/bend slightly when fully engaged. Considering their other sticks all have metal brake levers I have no idea why they have never changed this

2. The left hat is an 8-way hat. This might not be a big deal to you but I have never cared for 8-way hats.

 

I also run the Warbrd base with a 100 mm extension and have had no issues. The throw seems very similar to what I'm viewing in VR. 

[1Sascha]

7 hours ago, dburne said:

And it ain't around the corner either by far.

 

I love my Gunfighter don't get me wrong, but Virpil is seriously kicking butt with their equipment at this time.

I fear you're right. The lack of communication re the Throttle That Shan't Be Named doesn't seem to bode well for a timely introduction of that thing ... unless of course we count that weird "Tango" image-video that showed a glimpse of some sort of blueprint for the throttle. I know they said they won't do any more updates before actual release because they "got burnt", but given how long they've been teasing this thing, it's hardly surprising that people are getting impatient or even disillusioned.

 

That said: With everything going on in the world, I imagine doing business isn't exactly easy at the moment for a (sort of?) Russian-based company that relies heavily on Chinese facilities for R&D and production. Plus, as of late, they seem to be focusing more on their mid-level stuff like the Evo and all those NXT-modules.

 

I did have hopes that they would be able to roll out the new throttle by early 2023 but I ran out of patience and ordered the Virpil throttle - and now I have to wait until Virpil can re-stock on their VPC to WHT adapter-plate ? Ordered on Jan 3rd and inquired about stock Jan 7th and was told the throttle was ready to ship but that the adapter would be "another 2 to 4 weeks". Given the quality of Virpil's support (frankly, these guys are incredibly helpful and super friendly), I do believe them when they say that they were overwhelmed by the amount of orders that came in around BF/XMas. And considering their prices, they must be doing something right if people are queuing up like that to spend hundreds or thousands of $/€ on their stuff.

 

Re the GF, and as stated earlier: If I was buying new right now, it would probably be the VPC CM3 for me, but I'm not in any hurry to get rid of the VKB to switch to an all-VPC setup. It's still a great stick and seeing how my preferred VPC grip is nearly identical to my VKB MCG Pro, I don't expect there to be a huge difference in feel/performance once everything is set up just right. I did have some weird issues with my GF's grip/gimbal connection but that go sorted rather quickly and they did send me the required replacement parts (two new grip fasteners) for free and added a new contact pad to the package. They knew I wouldn't really need it but they wanted me to have it "just in case".

Plus there are some aspects of the GF I feel are still preferable to the VPC... like compactness of the gimbal housing or the elegant way it integrates into their desk-mount (the CM3 base looks *huge* in comparison).

 

 

 

Quote

I have the new CM3 stick on order myself.

Yeah... I saw your post about your GF croaking and getting resurrected over on the Virpil "we're all waiting for our stuff"-thread. Just out of curiosity: What exactly went wrong with your stick and how did you fix it?

 

 

 

S.

[dburne]

8 minutes ago, 1Sascha said:

 

Yeah... I saw your post about your GF croaking and getting resurrected over on the Virpil "we're all waiting for our stuff"-thread. Just out of curiosity: What exactly went wrong with your stick and how did you fix it?

 

 

 

Not entirely sure. I wanted to test my new  4090 GPU in IL-2 , I had not flown it in a few months and had updated firmwares on both throttle and stick earlier in the year. When I went into contols in IL-2 it prompted me I had changed controllers and did I want to use previous controllers bindings - since they were the same I have had for a couple of years I just said yes, and after that everything VKB went tits up. In VKB software everything was reporting wrong, axis were mis reporting as well as button presses. Finally after much cursing and nashing of teeth I got the stick flashed with latest firmware , then it was back to normal. 

Stangest thing controller wise I have ever seen.

 

Went back into IL-2 and was prompted with that same message - again - this time I said NO! Got the stick bindings set up again and now everything is just fine. 

How in the world saying yes to importing previous controller setting in IL-2 ended up screwing with my controllers firmware is beyond me.

[1Sascha]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

How in the world saying yes to importing previous controller setting in IL-2 ended up screwing with my controllers firmware is beyond me.

Yeah... that sounds like something beyond any key-mapper's capabilities... I mean... for IL-2 to mess up this sort of stuff it would need to be able to somehow access your stick's /black box' internal memory, right?

 

Weird.

 

But glad to hear it's working again. Can't wait for your thoughts on the CM3 - I don't think I've found any review thus far comparing the CM3 to the GF Mk III.

 

BTW: Did you inquire with Virpil support re stock situation/ETA for all the stuff you ordered? Seems that some items are much scarcer than others at the moment and some guys' orders were being held up by accessories not being available... like mouse-pads, dust-covers or additional springs.

 

From what I could make out, lots of mount/adapter related stuff seems to be in low supply (like my WHT adapter) plus some newer stuff like the CM3 base and Alpha Prime grips. Other stuff like the WarBRD base seems readily available. Support got back to me within 15 minutes and told me that my throttle was ready to ship but that the adapter would be "another 2 - 4 weeks". I'm not going to do it (to avoid additional shipping cost) but some folks have cancelled non-essential stuff to speed up delivery of their sticks.

 

S.

Edited January 15, 2023 by 1Sascha

[dburne]

11 minutes ago, 1Sascha said:

Yeah... that sounds like something beyond any key-mapper's capabilities... I mean... for IL-2 to mess up this sort of stuff it would need to be able to somehow access your stick's /black box' internal memory, right?

 

Weird.

 

But glad to hear it's working again. Can't wait for your thoughts on the CM3 - I don't think I've found any review thus far comparing the CM3 to the GF Mk III.

 

BTW: Did you inquire with Virpil support re stock situation/ETA for all the stuff you ordered? Seems that some items are much scarcer than others at the moment and some guys' orders were being held up by accessories not being available... like mouse-pads, dust-covers or additional springs.

 

From what I could make out, lots of mount/adapter related stuff seems to be in low supply (like my WHT adapter) plus some newer stuff like the CM3 base and Alpha Prime grips. Other stuff like the WarBRD base seems readily available. Support got back to me within 15 minutes and told me that my throttle was ready to ship but that the adapter would be "another 2 - 4 weeks". I'm not going to do it (to avoid additional shipping cost) but some folks have cancelled non-essential stuff to speed up delivery of their sticks.

 

S.

 

Yeah I have seen their backlog is pretty high right now due to Black Friday and Christmas sales. I ordered mine during the Christmas sale so figure I am still probably at least couple of weeks or more out. Not really in a big hurry now although I was panicking a little yesterday lol. I see some that ordered on Black Friday are still waiting as well. I read that Virpil made a big shipment to the US store very recently, hoping my items are in that shipment also.

[1Sascha]

Like I said: Just shoot Virpil support an email with your order number and they'll give you an estimate.

 

I'm hoping that those additional shipments to both their US and EU warehouses they announced (especially those focused on delivering accessories) will come in sooner rather than later. Despite my attempts at displaying patience and "indifference", deep down I *am* kinda anxious to get my hands on this thing... ?

 

 

 

S.

[dburne]

29 minutes ago, 1Sascha said:

Like I said: Just shoot Virpil support an email with your order number and they'll give you an estimate.

 

I'm hoping that those additional shipments to both their US and EU warehouses they announced (especially those focused on delivering accessories) will come in sooner rather than later. Despite my attempts at displaying patience and "indifference", deep down I *am* kinda anxious to get my hands on this thing... ?

 

 

 

S.

 

Patience sinsei, patience.