Developer Diary #337 Discussion (The Past and The Future)

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

6 minutes ago, CountZero said:

if the core game engne is aincant why are they using it for next new project, you can lisen to hans interview, they aint gona do new game engine... 

They are probably going to create a new game engine, using the usable parts of the current engine, while discarding/rewriting the rest. That's the very obvious way forward.

[BraveSirRobin]

20 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

I'd like to think future management see this sim as a money making opportunity and not a highway to financial euthanasia.

 

So the people who fired the guy who gave you access to a mission editor are now going to see improvements to the mission editor as a good way to make money?  That, um, seems unlikely.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

9 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Lol. I stopped reading right here.  But seriously.  LOL

 

 

 

 

There is really no point in engaging with you so I'm not going to.

[Guest deleted@83466]

 

2 minutes ago, drewm3i-VR said:

There is really no point in engaging with you so I'm not going to.

Do you have the speed or climb rate over BSR to escape?

[CanadaOne]

Just now, BraveSirRobin said:

 

So the people who fired the guy who gave you access to a mission editor are now going to see improvements to the mission editor as a good way to make money?  That, um, seems unlikely.

 

We never got a mission editor. We got access to an out of the game developer's tool. And I don't feel like we were the recipients of some special gift.

 

Can you imagine the guys at Ford designing a new car and one engineer chirps in with "Hey guys, whadaya think...... wheels?"

 

I'd like to think wheels were already going to be included, and I don't feel lucky that someone had the intellectual grandeur to put them on the car before selling it.

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, CanadaOne said:

 

We never got a mission editor. We got access to an out of the game developer's tool. And I don't feel like we were the recipients of some special gift.

 

 

Yes, you did get a mission editor.  You may not like it, but you absolutely got one.  Thanks to Jason.  And now the people who did not want you to have a mission editor have managed to get rid of Jason.  Do you really think they're now going to do a 180 and actually improve the mission editor?  I mean, anything is possible, but that seems unlikely.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Smoke ‘em if ya got ‘em, CanadaOne.

[BraveSirRobin]

7 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Do you have the speed or climb rate over BSR to escape?

 

 

Please don't encourage him.  We're in a good place now.

[CanadaOne]

1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Yes, you did get a mission editor.  You may not like it, but you absolutely got one.  Thanks to Jason.

 

According to Jason, in an interview, he said it was a developer's tool. An out-of-game developer's tool at that. You can call it Mac & Cheese if you want, but it's still an out-of-game developer's tool. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

And now the people who did not want you to have a mission editor have managed to get rid of Jason.  Do you really think they're now going to do a 180 and actually improve the mission editor?  I mean, anything is possible, but that seems unlikely.

 

All I know is Jason was purported to be the boss and after years there was basically nothing done to improve the mission editor as far as it being in-game or ease of use. But I guess it could be worse and new management could refuse to make it better for the next several hundred years or even go back in time and remove all traces of the developer's tool. I guess that would be worse. 

 

As stated, the new powers that be are free to cripple the sim to their heart's delight. Nothing I can do about it. But assuming - and it's a long shot I grant you - that they want to make the sim better, god forbid, then there's hope. 

 

[BraveSirRobin]

2 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

According to Jason, in an interview, he said it was a developer's tool. An out-of-game developer's tool at that. You can call it Mac & Cheese if you want, but it's still an out-of-game developer's tool. 

 

 

I am fully aware that it is a developer tool.  A developer tool that is still better than nothing.  A developer tool that you have access to thanks to Jason.  The people who did not want you to have access to that tool have managed to get rid of Jason.  And you think that is a good thing.  Do you really not see the logical disconnect?

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

20 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

 

Please don't encourage him.  We're in a good place now.

You're right, that's one for the Great Battles fanboys.

[Jaws2002]

I don't see anything different with Jason or without him. Albert ,the new boss is the guy who pushed for the unlocks, while him, together with Jason convinced 1C to dump CLOD and make a new Il-2 on the cheap.  

 They both were part of that and the fact that Il-2 GB still doesn't have some basic WW2 sim features, many years after Albert left and Jason was in charge, tells me he was also part of the problem.

 

I don't really have high hopes for what's  next.  

Edited December 30, 2022 by Jaws2002

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, Jaws2002 said:

I don't see anything different with Jason or without him. Albert ,the new boss is the guy who pushed for the unlocks, while him, together with Jason convinced 1C to dump CLOD and make a new Il-2 on the cheap.  

 They both were part of that and the fact that Il-2 GB still doesn't have some basic WW2 sim features, many years after Albert left and Jason was in charge, tells me he was also part of the problem.

 

CloD was, and is, a dumpster fire.  The only mistake Jason made with CloD was to not kill it completely.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

24 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

And now the people who did not want you to have a mission editor have managed to get rid of Jason.  Do you really think they're now going to do a 180 and actually improve the mission editor?

Actually, in all the years I play the sim I haven't seen as many small QOL improvements and bugfixes to the editor as have been released the past couple of months, since *after* Jason already left. Of course, the reason may simply be that they've got more time on their hands now BoN is released and they've got a larger team, but still. At the very least it shows that the Devs are willing to give some basic support to the editor.

 

Also, reading all the pleas for a simple in-game editor, I'm all for a basic, easy-to-use in-game mission editor, but *please* also keep a separate full-functionality mission editor. Yes, the current editor has a steep learning curve, but without its powerful tools all the amazing scripted campaigns out there would never have been possible.

[Guest deleted@83466]

If only I had drop tanks, it would revitalize the sim

 

?

Edited December 30, 2022 by SeaSerpent

[Jaws2002]

6 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

CloD was, and is, a dumpster fire.  The only mistake Jason made with CloD was to not kill it completely.

Nah. The new team turned it into a dumpster fire, when they went to Moscow and convinced the 1C execs to release it early and then dump it. 

The new team promised the execs at 1C, that they are gonna make a cheap Warthunder wannabe, full of unlocks and warthunder type monetization and make them rich.. 

  

Edited December 30, 2022 by Jaws2002

[CanadaOne]

4 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I am fully aware that it is a developer tool.  A developer tool that is still better than nothing.  A developer tool that you have access to thanks to Jason.  The people who did not want you to have access to that tool have managed to get rid of Jason.  And you think that is a good thing.  Do you really not see the logical disconnect?

 

What level of bovine obeisance would you like me to exhibit for the great fortune of getting an out-of-game developer's tool that is less convenient to use and harder to figure out than flightsim mission editors that were around decades ago?

 

Should I just moo, offer a squeeze of the teat, or would coughing up some cud be more a propos?

 

[Jaws2002]

8 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

The only mistake Jason made with CloD was to not kill it completely.

 

He tried as hard as he could. we still remember all the paid shilling done on all sim forums on his behalf.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Jaws2002

[Guest deleted@83466]

3 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

What level of bovine obeisance would you like me to exhibit for the great fortune of getting an out-of-game developer's tool that is less convenient to use and harder to figure out than flightsim mission editors that were around decades ago?

 

Should I just moo, offer a squeeze of the teat, or would coughing up some cud be more a propos?

 

 

 

You backwoods lumbersexual people and your metaphors never fail to astound.

[BraveSirRobin]

4 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

What level of bovine obeisance would you like me to exhibit for the great fortune of getting an out-of-game developer's tool that is less convenient to use and harder to figure out than flightsim mission editors that were around decades ago?

 

Should I just moo, offer a squeeze of the teat, or would coughing up some cud be more a propos?

 

 

Your other option was nothing at all.  So...

6 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

Nah. The new team turned it into a dumpster fire

  

 

I bought CloD.  I was there on day 1.  I can't properly respond to this without being banned from the forum for a very long time.

[FuriousMeow]

1 hour ago, drewm3i-VR said:

 the core engine is now ancient (far older than IL-2 1946 was in 2012),

 

An engine built in 2008/9 is older and more ancient than an engine built in 1998? Il-2 1946 began its life in 1998 - Il2 released in 2001, it had a few upgrades - not many, just the water, small DM update and the v4.0 advanced FM that actually finally gave the game a real FM and not the joke garbage where every plane had the same torque/gyro precession/p-factor where even jets had those until the v4.0 AFM, and its development ended in 2006. An engine's development that ended in 2006 is less ancient than one that began development after its end? If the NeoQB videos were still around demoing what is actually modeled as far as airflow and physics are concerned, its far superior to both the original Il-2 and CLoD.

 

 

[CanadaOne]

7 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

 

You backwoods lumbersexual people and your metaphors never fail to astound.

 

Agreed. We are amazing. 

[Jaws2002]

5 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Your other option was nothing at all.  So...

 

I bought CloD.  I was there on day 1.  I can't properly respond to this without being banned from the forum for a very long time.

Many of us were there and bought that unfinished product. We all got played, but it was released as it was to get some return on their investment, knowing full well the game will be dropped.

     The deal with the Rise of Flight team was done months before CLOD was released. There was a leak on UBI zoo months before CLOD release but nobody believed it. Nobody thought 1C would be so short sighted as to dump a completely new engine at release....But that's what they did and here we are ten years later and we still miss basic features that were available in the original Il-2.

[Avimimus]

6 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Not being able to place a test aircraft anywhere in the mission like I can in IL2 to test a portion of the mission, and not be able to run a mission with the player aircraft on autopilot.

 

Major, major disadvantages...major time sucks.

 

If they make a new mission format - they really should consider having an ability to save and load states during a mission. DCS is currently adding this as a feature (i.e. the ability to save and load a mission part way through it)... and it'd allow true time-skips (important for theatres with long flight times like the pacific)...

[Guest deleted@83466]

For all we know, developers might be like “3 million lines of spaghetti code, how did it we let it get so far?”?  I mean, who knows?

[Avimimus]

7 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Thank you bro, if we are patient enough I'm sure that 1CGS will unveil much more info all along 2023.

 

I'm just a bit squirrely at the moment because I remember the last attempt to rebuild an engine in this series (Cliffs of Dover) and I was moderating the SimHQ forum at the time of release... my bones remember and I'm getting a bit skittish with everyone else getting so skittish.

 

Honestly though, there are a lot of things that were said in the interview that are somewhat reassuring (including the candidness) and the fact that they are willing to work with 3rd parties may mean that we'll see some of the content we hope for eventually.

 

I think it'd help if they communicated a bit more in writing (and had someone proof-read it and ask for clarifications - in case of any language issues).

[Guest deleted@83466]

You were the prick who moderated the SimHQ forums?

Edited December 30, 2022 by SeaSerpent
Just kidding, I was never a member

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, Jaws2002 said:

Nobody thought 1C would be so short sighted as to dump a completely new engine at release....But that's what they did and here we are ten years later and we still miss basic features that were available in the original Il-2.

 

lol  I bought Tobruk.  I regretted it before I even downloaded it.  When I reinstalled CloD I was reminded what kind of dumpster fire it actually is.  I don't miss any of the basic features that it was supposed to bring us.  That game sucks on every level.  Sucked at the beginning.  Sucked after TF made it playable.  Sucks now.  There is a reason hardly anyone is playing it (according to Steam stats).  It sucks.

[Avimimus]

25 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I bought CloD.  I was there on day 1.  I can't properly respond to this without being banned from the forum for a very long time.

 

Hmm... I pre-ordered it from the U.K., that copy was lost in transit... I ordered it again... bought a new P.C. (only time I bought one new) for Cliffs of Dover... saw people immediately start lighting it on fire without waiting for a patch and then the inevitable announcement it was being abandoned... and realised that the announcement that a new team was taking over meant that Rise of Flight would cease to be developed... which meant the loss of a second sim... in a world where there were only three combat flight sim companies left.

 

Mind you, it was even darker days back in 2000 when just about every flight sim company disappeared (and CFS3 from 2002 was the last competitor)... 

 

...still, anyone want to besmirch Cliffs of Dover - I'm ready to duel you in the skies.

 

In fact, I never really understood why we argue on the forums when we could have an elaborate system of trial by combat... might get me to try multiplayer again.

 

  

7 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

You were the prick who moderated the SimHQ forums?

 

Yes, briefly... I think we had four or five at one point around the time of release... but I put out fires several times a day for a few weeks there. It was a bit hard not being able to have my own opinions  I basically disappeared from the forums for a while after that (and stopped playing Cliffs of Dover until Team Fusion started to bring it back... it was just too sad - amazing what they've done). Speaking of which - it is the wrong forum - but with the uncertainty regarding TFS 6.0 / Desert Wings expansions with Fulgrim now managing the series... well, yet another uncertainty I suppose.

 

 

6 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

lol  I bought Tobruk.  I regretted it before I even downloaded it.  When I reinstalled CloD I was reminded what kind of dumpster fire it actually is.  I don't miss any of the basic features that it was supposed to bring us.  That game sucks on every level.  Sucked at the beginning.  Sucked after TF made it playable.  Sucks now.  There is a reason hardly anyone is playing it (according to Steam stats).  It sucks.

 

Really? Have you tried flying the Bf-108? I find it quite enjoyable to just explore in it for some reason. I'm not normally like that with civil sims, but something about it...

That said, I'm the weirdo who actually like the excessive gee effects on the camera (and I'd like a setting to bring them back)... so...

 

Anyway, I think the engine has some redeeming features - but I think a lot of it also comes down to whether one grew up reading books about the Mediterranean air-war. Some of us were waiting for a long time for such a theatre... moreso than the Pacific (which wasn't as well covered in the Canadian libraries I grew up with, and also has had more sims covering it as a theatre).

Edited December 30, 2022 by Avimimus

[Gambit21]

17 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

If they make a new mission format - they really should consider having an ability to save and load states during a mission. DCS is currently adding this as a feature (i.e. the ability to save and load a mission part way through it)... and it'd allow true time-skips (important for theatres with long flight times like the pacific)...

 

I'm really skeptical about the whole new engine thing.

Daniel said in the interview "...in 5 years you might consider it a new engine because of all of the work that's been done on it" paraphrasing.

So a whole new engine, and writing a new editor etc? I'm not even entertaining that as a possibility...but we'll see.

 

With you PTO skips though.

 

 

 

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, Avimimus said:

 

Hmm... I pre-ordered it from the U.K., that copy was lost in transit... I ordered it again... bought a new P.C. (only time I bought one new) for Cliffs of Dover... saw people immediately start lighting it on fire without waiting for a patch and then the inevitable announcement it was being abandoned... and realised that the announcement that a new team was taking over meant that Rise of Flight would cease to be developed... which meant the loss of a second sim... in a world where there were only three combat flight sim companies left.

 

Mind you, it was even darker days back in 2000 when just about every flight sim company disappeared (and CFS3 from 2002 was the last competitor)... 

 

...still, anyone want to besmirch Cliffs of Dover - I'm ready to duel you in the skies.

 

In fact, I never really understood why we argue on the forums when we could have an elaborate system of trial by combat... might get me to try multiplayer again.

 

RoF was the last game I bought in a store.  I played so many hours of RoF that is was probably bad for my health.  I was playing MP until 1 or 2 in the morning every night and then getting up for work at 7:30 in the morning.  RoF was fantastic.  It absolutely helped me get past the fact that CloD was a dumpster fire.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

22 minutes ago, FuriousMeow said:

 

An engine built in 2008/9 is older and more ancient than an engine built in 1998? Il-2 1946 began its life in 1998 - Il2 released in 2001, it had a few upgrades - not many, just the water, small DM update and the v4.0 advanced FM that actually finally gave the game a real FM and not the joke garbage where every plane had the same torque/gyro precession/p-factor where even jets had those until the v4.0 AFM, and its development ended in 2006. An engine's development that ended in 2006 is less ancient than one that began development after its end? If the NeoQB videos were still around demoing what is actually modeled as far as airflow and physics are concerned, its far superior to both the original Il-2 and CLoD.

 

 

You misread my post...RoF began development in 2003 and released in 2009. In 2012, it was 9 (beginning of development) and 3 years old (initial release). GB development is a WW2 of a WW1 engine that began development in 2003 and first released in 2009.

 

In 2012, IL-2 1946 was 14 years removed from initial development and 11 years removed from initial release. That makes the GB engine far older in 2023, than 1946 was in 2012.

[Guest deleted@83466]

8 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

RoF was the last game I bought in a store.  I played so many hours of RoF that is was probably bad for my health.  I was playing MP until 1 or 2 in the morning every night and then getting up for work at 7:30 in the morning.  RoF was fantastic.  It absolutely helped me get past the fact that CloD was a dumpster fire.

Damn you, bruh, you leave me no choice.

 

 

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, SeaSerpent said:

Damn you, bruh, you leave me no choice.

 

 

 

SeaSerpant:  "I'm in!! I'm in!!!"

 

Us:  Dude, we're about to kill him.  Where are you?

 

...

...

...

 

SeaSerpant:  I'm about 30 seconds out....

 

...

...

...

 

Me:  Really?     

 

Us:  brrrrrrrrrt.  He's dead.  Thanks for your help, bruh.  Let us know when you get here so we can form up. 

[FuriousMeow]

7 minutes ago, drewm3i-VR said:

RoF began development in 2003 and released in 2009.

 

Did it? The small releases of development were in 2006 or so that I saw.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Like I said, those were the days, back in…2015. ?

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, SeaSerpent said:

Like I said, those were the days, back in…2015. ?

 

Funniest moment in all of the thousands of hours I played RoF.

 

I'm in!  I'm in!!!  

 

Dude, there's 2 of us about to kill him.  I don't see you.

 

um....

...

...

...

um...

...

...

...

I'm 30 seconds out...

 

brrrrrrrrrrrrrt...  He's dead...  Let's form up....

...

...

...

30 seconds out?  You dumbass...

[Guest deleted@83466]

I got better, though, I think.

[BraveSirRobin]

You didn't get any funnier.  That was your best moment.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Thanks, pal.