I need knobs! And buttons! Maybe levers? Am I overthinking? Help!

[Numl0k]

So I've dabbled in more arcadey flight sims like War Thunder before, and space sims like Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen. But IL-2 is my first foray into something more on the simulator side. 

I'm currently running a Saitek T-55 stick and a Thrustmaster TWCS throttle (I used to have the matching T-55 throttle, but it eventually died on me after many hours of use). I'm finding that I can't quite get all the controls I need on them, at least not in a way I'm happy with. I've come to the conclusion that it's time to get myself some knobs/levers/buttons. I'm seeing a lot of options for button boxes, but most just have about three knobs. And I'm thinking I'm going to need at least 8 axes if I don't want to make them shared. 

Anyone see an issue with this list? 

Elevator Trim

Rudder Trim 

Aileron Trim 

Fuel Mixture 

RPM 

Oil Radiator 

Water Radiator 

Prop Pitch  

 

Am I missing anything there? Maybe flaps? Should that be on an axis for some planes? Or would a 2-way switch be fine for that (Up one position, down one position)?

I'm thinking I can get away with less, because I'm not sure if there are any planes in IL-2 that will actually have ALL of these controls. For example I've just been sticking to the Yak-1 Ser. 69 so far, and I don't need Rudder Trim, Aileron Trim, or Prop Pitch for this bird, so I'd really only need five for this one. I'll be trying out some new planes shortly, but of the ones I've looked at, they all seem to have some of those settings either being automated, or missing. 

 

I know I can just set these controls to keys, as they currently are, but I really like the idea of being able to quickly turn a knob or pull a lever to my desired setting rather than having to hold down a key combination and trying to land the setting where I want it. Plus let's face it, knobs and levers are just cool. 

 

So, my first choice here would be the Honeycomb Bravo. 6 main levers, a couple knobs, gear lever, elevator trim wheel, and so many buttons and rockers. But, it's a little more expensive than I really want to spend right now. I was also looking at the Logitech throttle quadrant. I could get TWO of those for about a third of the price of the Honeycomb and have 6 levers and 6 rocker switches, which I think I could make work. But, the Logitech does seem a little bit cheap (But for $40, that's reasonable). 

Or, I could get one of the Logitech Throttle Quadrants, and pair that with a button box I have my eye on that has 4 knobs, 4 buttons, and 4 switches. That would be a little more expensive than two quadrants, but I think it might flow a little better, plus I'd have the extra buttons.

 

Part of me wants to just save my pennies for a little while and get the Honeycomb Bravo. It really does seem slick (Though it would take up a lot of real estate on my setup), and it seems to have everything I need. But, it does seem like it's more geared toward something like a sim for a commercial jet rather than a warbird. Like, it'll work, but it's not really geared for what I'm doing. 

 

So now that I've ranted a bit, I'm hoping someone that's been in this a bit longer can give me some feedback and opinions. Maybe some other options I didn't think about. One thing I'll note is that I would like to get a new throttle eventually, either just a replacement for the X-55 throttle that died, or something else altogether. That would give me some extra knobs and switches, so that may take some of the emphasis off of other peripherals. I actually think I may upgrade my throttle before I start getting anything else, and just deal with having some things remaining bound to keys for a while. Also another note, I'd like to eventually dabble in DCS World, so if there's an upgrade path that could sort of future proof me for that, it would definitely be nice. 

 

Anyway, my fingers are getting tired, so I'll leave it at that for now. I appreciate any feedback, advice, or opinions you folks can throw my way! 

 

Edit: Well, I just discovered the VKB GNX WWII Throttle. What a slick little piece of kit! It doesn't have as many axes as I'd like, but at least using the buttons on there would be nicer than using Ctrl/Alt/Win as modifiers for +/-. And that would solve my throttle problem, too. And if I did eventually find that I absolutely need more axes, I could just add on a trim wheel box and maybe a couple knobs and I'd be set. Now I have another option to think about...

Edited December 24, 2022 by Numl0k

[=LD=Bulldog*]

Hey Nun10k,

 

A preferred HOTAS is up to the individual and their purpose. I have a MS Sidewinder 2 FF stick, an X-52 throttle with axis and CH throttle quadrant, which I have programmed for rudder, oil and prop pitch. Seems to be fine. Oh, and TrackIR and a Reverb G2 in the New Year.

 

Hope that helps.

 

BD

[Sokol1]

2 hours ago, Numl0k said:

Am I missing anything there? Maybe flaps? Should that be on an axis for some planes? Or would a 2-way switch be fine for that (Up one position, down one position)?

 

If was not changed recently you can't control flaps with axis, and are more than one variation of flaps system in the game.

Example, il-2, Spitfire... is Up or Down, Ju-52, Fw 190... is 3 or 4 fixed positions, Bf 109, LaGG3 is incremental 1<>1 degree - for these in game is used press and hold command. 

 

GearFalcon has some affordable models, developed by a simmer, can see their topics in ATAG forum (under maintenance at moment) . Example, 3 axis trim console.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sokol1

[Numl0k]

11 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

 

If was not changed recently you can't control flaps with axis, and are more than one variation of flaps system in the game.

Example, il-2, Spitfire... is Up or Down, Ju-52, Fw 190... is 3 or 4 fixed positions, Bf 109, LaGG3 is incremental 1<>1 degree - for these in game is used press and hold command. 

 

GearFalcon has some affordable models, developed by a simmer, can see their topics in ATAG forum (under maintenance at moment) . Example, 3 axis trim console.

 

 

 

 

 

Ahh, well that's one less thing to worry about then! I guess a simple two-way switch, or even just a pair of buttons would work for the flaps then. 

 

I actually just found GearFalcon! I found out that he used to make the trim wheels in the photo you posted, but wired into a box with 4 encoder knobs (Or 4 switches). I actually just sent him a message seeing if there was any chance that the wheel/knob box would be making a comeback, as it would be perfect for what I'm trying to do!

[Hoss]

 

In tandem with TMWH..... I still don't use every button in IL2. I have another faceplate for the BlackHog for DCS. R/P/Y Trim Box is from GVL

Edited December 24, 2022 by Hoss

[cardboard_killer]

4 hours ago, Numl0k said:

Elevator Trim

Rudder Trim 

Aileron Trim 

Fuel Mixture 

RPM 

Oil Radiator 

Water Radiator 

Prop Pitch  

 

I don't think any single aircraft in IL-2 needs axes for all of those (and the trims are not placed on axes either as explained above). The real kicker is if you are fly twin engine planes much, as then some things are doubled.

 

Also, the few a/c that can use manual pitch also use a switch I think.

[Numl0k]

42 minutes ago, cardboard_killer said:

(and the trims are not placed on axes either as explained above)

Do you mean flaps? I know the poster earlier clarified about flaps, but even now I have my elevator trim set on a knob, and he had pointed me at an axis console for trim. 

 

And that makes sense that there wouldn't be any planes that use ALL of those. Part of me still wants an individual control for everything, though, even if some of those will go untouched depending on what I'm flying. It would make it easier for me to keep track of what's what. If a certain button controls one thing on my Yak-1 but something different in a Spitfire, I'd probably start to get confused. It's something I could get used to, but if a better option exists, I'd prefer it. 

 

Definitely good to know that about the pitch, though! Didn't know that! 

 

I think I may settle on the VKB GNX WW2 Throttle with something separate for trim controls. I'm also eyeballing the VKB NXT EVO joystick, so that should fill in any gaps I have left. Holy crap I've spent so much of today looking at hardware ?

[paul_leonard]

I have to disagree especially in VR where everything is by feel rather than a switch because you can’t see.  My analogy is the modern touchscreen in a car versus volume and channel dial and quick change buttons.  Now I need a copilot in the car (wife) to manage centre console.  
 

So I have the Gear-Falcon trim box with three wheels and four encoders.  Trim wheels are elevator, rudder and ailerons and encoders are time, IPD, zoom, necksafer.  The Gear-Falcon box is a must have (hope he starts making them again once he secures parts).  I also use a Saitek throttle for prop pitch, mix, and buttons as related (then again, I haven’t mastered this and keep blowing up engines).  
 

the importance of analog controls in VR to me is essential.  I don’t have a copilot (wife) in the virtual world.

[Numl0k]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

 

In tandem with TMWH..... I still don't use every button in IL2. I have another faceplate for the BlackHog for DCS. R/P/Y Trim Box is from GVL

That Blackhog panel is slick!!! I've actually never seen those before! Damn, why'd you have to go and complicate this decision even more... 

 

What's that trim box you have on the side there?

7 minutes ago, paul_leonard said:

I have to disagree especially in VR where everything is by feel rather than a switch because you can’t see.  My analogy is the modern touchscreen in a car versus volume and channel dial and quick change buttons.  Now I need a copilot in the car (wife) to manage centre console.  
 

So I have the Gear-Falcon trim box with three wheels and four encoders.  Trim wheels are elevator, rudder and ailerons and encoders are time, IPD, zoom, necksafer.  The Gear-Falcon box is a must have (hope he starts making them again once he secures parts).  I also use a Saitek throttle for prop pitch, mix, and buttons as related (then again, I haven’t mastered this and keep blowing up engines).  
 

the importance of analog controls in VR to me is essential.  I don’t have a copilot (wife) in the virtual world.

 

I'm not planning on ever going VR for various reasons, but I'm in the same mindset for different reasons. It's so much easier for me to understand what I'm doing when I have something that I can physically rotate, slide, or pull. If I'm using a button to increase/decrease something, I'm probably going to have a hard time tapping it or holding it for just long enough to land where I want to. But if I have a knob or a lever or a slider, I just throw it where I want it and move on. If I need fine controls, I have an easier time sloooowly twisting a knob than I do tapping a button one tap at a time. There's definitely something to be said for having something tactile. And for the touch screen comparison, I still miss my old Blackberry with the full keyboard ?

[paul_leonard]

We lost something when BlackBerry died.  I feel your pain.  We are analog creatures, so VR or not, I agree with you.  But interestingly Chuck Yeager when asked to choose between digital information or analog dials went right for digital.  Digital conveys information faster which is critical in air combat, but like your comments, the analog response is more effective.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, cardboard_killer said:

and the trims are not placed on axes either as explained above

 

Most planes have trim inputs that can be used on analog axis controls.

[Customizer171]

3 hours ago, Numl0k said:

That Blackhog panel is slick!!! I've actually never seen those before! Damn, why'd you have to go and complicate this decision even more... 

 

What's that trim box you have on the side there?

 

I'm not planning on ever going VR for various reasons, but I'm in the same mindset for different reasons. It's so much easier for me to understand what I'm doing when I have something that I can physically rotate, slide, or pull. If I'm using a button to increase/decrease something, I'm probably going to have a hard time tapping it or holding it for just long enough to land where I want to. But if I have a knob or a lever or a slider, I just throw it where I want it and move on. If I need fine controls, I have an easier time sloooowly twisting a knob than I do tapping a button one tap at a time. There's definitely something to be said for having something tactile. And for the touch screen comparison, I still miss my old Blackberry with the full keyboard ?

I have tried to get in touch with those who make the Blackhog button boxes, many times, but have never received any reply.

Maybe they are out of business??

 

The trim box is made by GVL. He is from Ukraine, and can for obvious reasons not deliver anything right now but I hope that it will change in the future because his products looks great.

[Charon]

I've gone further than probably 99.9% of players towards having a full analog setup, so I'll give some comments.

 

This spreadsheet may be useful to you.

 

14 hours ago, Numl0k said:

 

Anyone see an issue with this list? 

Elevator Trim

Rudder Trim 

Aileron Trim 

Fuel Mixture 

RPM 

Oil Radiator 

Water Radiator 

Prop Pitch 

 

 

You've double-counted RPM/prop pitch. One axis is fine for both; typically when you're controlling pitch directly (95% of the time, this will be in the Hs 129) you're using buttons anyway.

 

I also personally like putting RPM on buttons when flying Yaks and Sturmoviks, as they adjust the governed RPM using a very slow wheel. For this I use the same buttons I use for prop pitch control.

 

You've also missed Turbocharger (P-47), Outlet Cowl Shutters (but you should double-bind this with Water Radiators, AFAIK no plane uses both and they're functionally very similar), and Intake Cowl Shutters (set-and-forget, doesn't really need an axis). You'll also probably want left/right throttles when flying twins; IMO there's no point in binding any of the other controls separately.

 

For me, 6 general purpose axes is enough even for the P-47 (can be 7 axes, but intercooler and oil are both properly on toggles) La-5s (6). Virpil CM3 + TWCS + a single gear-falcon axis that I typically use for mixture. The twins are also challenging, but no individual twin needs more than 6 axes even with independent left and right throttle. For the Ju 52, I bind L/R throttles to engines 1/3, and my second throttle to engine 2, which is awkward but workable. I also disable toe brakes and use the throttles in the Ju 52. The remaining 3 axes get used for mixture and radiators.

 

I also have the mini-slider on my throttle bound to zoom, and I do some axis remapping so that the upper half of the ministick can act as an analog break lever in the Soviet/British planes.

 

I do have the gear falcon wheels (in a home-built box), and they're rad. I've commented on them here.

 

One problem you're going to discover is that certain planes (He 111, Bf 110s, most British fighters) have radiators which move in discrete steps. Frustratingly, there's no way to natively bind these to an axis. My solution is a (very janky, slightly buggy) joystick gremlin plugin.

 

My setup actually predates the per-plane control profiles, so I use Joystick Gremlin to remap all my physical axes to logical (vjoy) axes, bind the logical axes in game, and use joystick gremlin modes to reconfigure the physical to logical mapping on the fly. This is highly unusual and somewhat inconvenient, it has some advantages still, and JG is necessary for the discrete-axis plugin anyway.

[Numl0k]

5 hours ago, Charon said:

I've gone further than probably 99.9% of players towards having a full analog setup, so I'll give some comments.

 

This spreadsheet may be useful to you.

 

 

 

You've double-counted RPM/prop pitch. One axis is fine for both; typically when you're controlling pitch directly (95% of the time, this will be in the Hs 129) you're using buttons anyway.

 

I also personally like putting RPM on buttons when flying Yaks and Sturmoviks, as they adjust the governed RPM using a very slow wheel. For this I use the same buttons I use for prop pitch control.

 

You've also missed Turbocharger (P-47), Outlet Cowl Shutters (but you should double-bind this with Water Radiators, AFAIK no plane uses both and they're functionally very similar), and Intake Cowl Shutters (set-and-forget, doesn't really need an axis). You'll also probably want left/right throttles when flying twins; IMO there's no point in binding any of the other controls separately.

 

For me, 6 general purpose axes is enough even for the P-47 (can be 7 axes, but intercooler and oil are both properly on toggles) La-5s (6). Virpil CM3 + TWCS + a single gear-falcon axis that I typically use for mixture. The twins are also challenging, but no individual twin needs more than 6 axes even with independent left and right throttle. For the Ju 52, I bind L/R throttles to engines 1/3, and my second throttle to engine 2, which is awkward but workable. I also disable toe brakes and use the throttles in the Ju 52. The remaining 3 axes get used for mixture and radiators.

 

I also have the mini-slider on my throttle bound to zoom, and I do some axis remapping so that the upper half of the ministick can act as an analog break lever in the Soviet/British planes.

 

I do have the gear falcon wheels (in a home-built box), and they're rad. I've commented on them here.

 

One problem you're going to discover is that certain planes (He 111, Bf 110s, most British fighters) have radiators which move in discrete steps. Frustratingly, there's no way to natively bind these to an axis. My solution is a (very janky, slightly buggy) joystick gremlin plugin.

 

My setup actually predates the per-plane control profiles, so I use Joystick Gremlin to remap all my physical axes to logical (vjoy) axes, bind the logical axes in game, and use joystick gremlin modes to reconfigure the physical to logical mapping on the fly. This is highly unusual and somewhat inconvenient, it has some advantages still, and JG is necessary for the discrete-axis plugin anyway.

 

Lots of great information, thank you for the detailed write-up!

[Sokol1]

22 hours ago, Numl0k said:

Do you mean flaps? I know the poster earlier clarified about flaps, but even now I have my elevator trim set on a knob, and he had pointed me at an axis console for trim. 

 

Trim (elevator, rudder, ailerons) can be set in analog axes, don't remember but probable include when the new controls scheme, whit profiles, was introduced.

 

About flaps, a clarification: flaps command can be controlled by a analog axes, but.

• The axis will work as an ON/OF switch.
• For example in Ju-57 Stuka, whose flaps has 2 positions, move the axis- even a millimeter;  make flaps move all way down. Same in Bf 109, the flaps start go down and don't stop until send inverted command.
• Don'f find a way for for set the same axis for lower and raise flaps, only for one or another function.
• The axis set for flaps command don't have option to be inverted, neither tuned (S curve), is treated like a button or key.

In short, nothing practical to worry about.

[1Sascha]

On 12/24/2022 at 7:51 PM, Numl0k said:

Elevator Trim

Rudder Trim 

Aileron Trim 

Fuel Mixture 

RPM 

Oil Radiator 

Water Radiator 

Prop Pitch  

I have all of these mapped to my setup and none of them are mapped to an axis - don't really see why you would need to put them on an axis, either. I can't comment on all the planes, because I don't fly all of them regularly, but from what I remember, some/most? mixture controls for example will have "steps" ("auto lean", "auto-rich"), so there's no real need for an analogue axis with "infinite" positions - just like, say, the water radiators on the Bf 110 which have ..err... 7? steps, IIRC.

 

Besides: In some planes, axes won't really work for some of these functions - nor would it be "realistic" to put them on there. Example: The (real) FW 190's elevator/H-stab trim is actuated by two buttons, which is reflected in the game. 109s and 190s have a rocker-switch to increase/decrease RPM, etc. And yes: Flaps are also actuated by switches/buttons on some of the planes (from the top of my head: FW 190, Spitfire).

 

Personally, I'd rather have a ton of hat-switches/buttons to put all this stuff on. I've flown a VKB Evo KG-12 and TWCS combo before and that was already pretty decent WRT number of functions in IL-2 - especially since I also use pedals and Opentrack. I've since upgraded to a Warthog throttle and a VKB Gunfighter MCG Pro and with that, I've yet to run out of buttons/switches in this game.

 

My recommendation would be to start flying with the peripherals you have and see which functions you really need and use the most - then put those in the most convenient locations on your existing HOTAS. Only if you find that you run out of buttons for essential stuff would I be thinking of an upgrade. Or if you absolutely can't get to grips with pushing buttons instead of moving wheels/levers about... ?

 

There are also some work-arounds like using techno-chat to verify certain settings (like trim) at a glance while you change them. So as cool as it would be to have something akin to the RL 109's flaps- and H-stab-trim wheels at my side, I never found it a disadvantage that I'm actuating both these functions with switches or buttons.

 

Other than that:

 

https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/gnx-thq-v-throttle-quadrant-vertical/

 

or

 

https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/gnx-sem-side-extension-module/

 

 

Or go nuts (and metal) and grab one of these:

 

https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-control-panel-2.html

 

 

 

 

S.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by 1Sascha

[spreckair]

In addition to hardware solutions, take a look at VoiceAttack.  This software allows you to use voice commands instead of buttons, which frees up a lot of the buttons that you might want to use for more urgent needs.  For instance, since I only raise and lower my landing gear once each per mission, I use a voice command to raise and lower them.  Same for nav lights, etc.  Also, when I need to bail out!

[=C=ntS=Jenicek]

On 12/24/2022 at 7:51 PM, Numl0k said:

So I've dabbled in more arcadey flight sims like War Thunder before, and space sims like Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen. But IL-2 is my first foray into something more on the simulator side. 

I'm currently running a Saitek T-55 stick and a Thrustmaster TWCS throttle (I used to have the matching T-55 throttle, but it eventually died on me after many hours of use). I'm finding that I can't quite get all the controls I need on them, at least not in a way I'm happy with. I've come to the conclusion that it's time to get myself some knobs/levers/buttons. I'm seeing a lot of options for button boxes, but most just have about three knobs. And I'm thinking I'm going to need at least 8 axes if I don't want to make them shared. 

Anyone see an issue with this list? 

Elevator Trim

Rudder Trim 

Aileron Trim 

Fuel Mixture 

RPM 

Oil Radiator 

Water Radiator 

Prop Pitch  

 

Am I missing anything there? Maybe flaps? Should that be on an axis for some planes? Or would a 2-way switch be fine for that (Up one position, down one position)?

I'm thinking I can get away with less, because I'm not sure if there are any planes in IL-2 that will actually have ALL of these controls. For example I've just been sticking to the Yak-1 Ser. 69 so far, and I don't need Rudder Trim, Aileron Trim, or Prop Pitch for this bird, so I'd really only need five for this one. I'll be trying out some new planes shortly, but of the ones I've looked at, they all seem to have some of those settings either being automated, or missing. 

 

I know I can just set these controls to keys, as they currently are, but I really like the idea of being able to quickly turn a knob or pull a lever to my desired setting rather than having to hold down a key combination and trying to land the setting where I want it. Plus let's face it, knobs and levers are just cool. 

 

So, my first choice here would be the Honeycomb Bravo. 6 main levers, a couple knobs, gear lever, elevator trim wheel, and so many buttons and rockers. But, it's a little more expensive than I really want to spend right now. I was also looking at the Logitech throttle quadrant. I could get TWO of those for about a third of the price of the Honeycomb and have 6 levers and 6 rocker switches, which I think I could make work. But, the Logitech does seem a little bit cheap (But for $40, that's reasonable). 

Or, I could get one of the Logitech Throttle Quadrants, and pair that with a button box I have my eye on that has 4 knobs, 4 buttons, and 4 switches. That would be a little more expensive than two quadrants, but I think it might flow a little better, plus I'd have the extra buttons.

 

Part of me wants to just save my pennies for a little while and get the Honeycomb Bravo. It really does seem slick (Though it would take up a lot of real estate on my setup), and it seems to have everything I need. But, it does seem like it's more geared toward something like a sim for a commercial jet rather than a warbird. Like, it'll work, but it's not really geared for what I'm doing. 

 

So now that I've ranted a bit, I'm hoping someone that's been in this a bit longer can give me some feedback and opinions. Maybe some other options I didn't think about. One thing I'll note is that I would like to get a new throttle eventually, either just a replacement for the X-55 throttle that died, or something else altogether. That would give me some extra knobs and switches, so that may take some of the emphasis off of other peripherals. I actually think I may upgrade my throttle before I start getting anything else, and just deal with having some things remaining bound to keys for a while. Also another note, I'd like to eventually dabble in DCS World, so if there's an upgrade path that could sort of future proof me for that, it would definitely be nice. 

 

Anyway, my fingers are getting tired, so I'll leave it at that for now. I appreciate any feedback, advice, or opinions you folks can throw my way! 

 

Edit: Well, I just discovered the VKB GNX WWII Throttle. What a slick little piece of kit! It doesn't have as many axes as I'd like, but at least using the buttons on there would be nicer than using Ctrl/Alt/Win as modifiers for +/-. And that would solve my throttle problem, too. And if I did eventually find that I absolutely need more axes, I could just add on a trim wheel box and maybe a couple knobs and I'd be set. Now I have another option to think about...

 

 I share your need for knobs and levers. It feels much more natural to pull a lever than several button clicks for opening a radiator flap. I am cheap and I could not find anything quite suitable for our warbird needs on the market so I build my own. Here:

By the way I was able to bind a button to a part of an analog axis for operating the radiators using the FreeJoy platform this one is built around. You could probably achieve the same using Gremlin or something similar.