Magic Bullet dev question.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Is the development team aware of the issue where a single bullet a long range is unrealistically modeled?  Seems to have been introduced in a recent update.

 

If aware, are you looking into it?

 

Many people are experiencing this and are discussing it.

 

Thanks in advance

Edited December 21, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell
Typo

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Bullet like this ?

 

[SCG_motoadve]

This is ruining IL2 and is giving an arcade feel to the series, hope it gets fixed soon, there is a bunch of people not flying IL2 anymore because of this.

 

Worst part is few people say it is realistic and like it this way?

[LukeFF]

18 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Is the development team aware of the issue where a single bullet a long range is unrealistically modeled?  Seems to have been introduced in a recent update.

 

If aware, are you looking into it?

 

Many people are experiencing this and are discussing it.

 

Thanks in advance

 

"Many" people are experiencing this? Seriously? A very few very vocal people on the forums suddenly constitutes "many" people?

[percydanvers]

 

14 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Bullet like this ?

 

 

What is the context here? If this is a pilot kill I think two of those bullets could very well do 100% damage to a human body

[dbuile]

The only constructive piece I can winnow from the amorphous, often uncohesive rants, is perhaps a critical eye should be cast at whether the pilot damage model needs additional complexity or not.  Doing it well can be non-trivial pandora's box, since it may spill over into other "systems", for example, pilot ability to impart stick/rudder forces, and game "feedback" on injuries like your entire leg is shattered by a .50 cal hit, and you're fading out to death from blood loss (as opposed to instant black screen because the torso hitpoints were exceeded).

[JG300_Egon]

JFK like this...?

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

35 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

"Many" people are experiencing this? Seriously? A very few very vocal people on the forums suddenly constitutes "many" people?

Simply wrong Luke.  8 pages of posts  (Some off topic, but hardly a few as you suggest)

 

Not to mention, I was addressing the devs....?

Edited December 21, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[Enceladus828]

4 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Simply wrong Luke.  8 pages of posts  (Some off topic, but hardly a few as you suggest)

 

Not to mention, I was addressing the devs....?

I feel it's just best to PM the devs about this issue. With the bug that caused a simple belly landing in an open field to be fatal, it went on 9 months before it was fixed in 5.001. Not sure if the devs were aware of it until shortly before 5.001 was released; I PM'd one of the devs about it and he got back to me 2 weeks before 5.001 was released and agreed with me that a bug existed. Coincidence?

 

Anyway, if you want this to be addressed soon, you're better off just PM'ing them.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Just now, Enceladus said:

I feel it's just best to PM the devs about this issue. With the bug that caused a simple belly landing in an open field to be fatal, it went on 9 months before it was fixed in 5.001. Not sure if the devs were aware of it until shortly before 5.001 was released; I PM'd one of the devs about it and he got back to me 2 weeks before 5.001 was released and agreed with me that a bug existed. Coincidence?

 

Anyway, if you want this to be addressed soon, you're better off just PM'ing them.

Roger.  Thank you..?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I'd like to know how complex the ballistics are modelled. Bombers are big aircraft and there is a lot in the way from the tail to the pilot. It appears that the "magic" shot ignores (or has a negligible effect) everything in the way of the pilot from systems, armour, crew bodies, and cargo etc. The rounds seem to travel a direct route with no deviation. And the idea that this is just a few vocal voices reporting this is rather laughable.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

2 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

I'd like to know how complex the ballistics are modelled. Bombers are big aircraft and there is a lot in the way from the tail to the pilot. It appears that the "magic" shot ignores (or has a negligible effect) everything in the way of the pilot from systems, armour, crew bodies, and cargo etc. The rounds seem to travel a direct route with no deviation. And the idea that this is just a few vocal voices reporting this is rather laughable.

Laughable and annoying.? I would suspect, if the devs were informed if this by someone on the beta test team, they would look into it.  

Edited December 21, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[Knarley-Bob]

Does putting "tracks" in the 'Bug" reports do any good? If not, where then?

And how many do they need?

 

KB

Edited December 21, 2022 by Knarley-Bob

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Simply wrong Luke.  8 pages of posts  (Some off topic, but hardly a few as you suggest)

 

One needs to remember that a loud, vocal minority on a web forum doesn't necessarily represent the disposition of all those players who don't ever post on the forums here or elsewhere like Reddit or Discord. ?

 

1 hour ago, Knarley-Bob said:

Does putting "tracks" in the 'Bug" reports do any good?

 

Yes, it does. If they need more info, they'll typically respond and let you know.

 

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

And the idea that this is just a few vocal voices reporting this is rather laughable.

 

It is as it always has been - a few very loud, highly annoyed people, for better or for worse, are the ones who report on these issues. This is hardly my first rodeo when it comes to combat flight sims and people thinking there is something wrong with X or Y.

 

And again, may I ask, why not just load up the game for 15 minutes, record a track or two, and then post it here? You see a problem, so post something we can all load up for ourselves (and I'm not talking about the gunner issue here - just the issue with the bomber armor).

Edited December 21, 2022 by LukeFF

[SCG_motoadve]

10 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

One needs to remember that a loud, vocal minority on a web forum doesn't necessarily represent the disposition of all those players who don't ever post on the forums here or elsewhere like Reddit or Discord. ?

How do you know its a such a minority? lots of players have just stop playing IL2 and already left , they are not even here anymore, a lot of people are not having fun anymore.

 

Doing a AQM and shooting down 6 FW 190s in a row as pilot kills , half of them instant, one after the other

makes this game boring.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

8 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

One needs to remember that a loud, vocal minority on a web forum doesn't necessarily represent the disposition of all those players who don't ever post on the forums here or elsewhere like Reddit or Discord. ?

 

 

Yes, it does. If they need more info, they'll typically respond and let you know.

 

 

It is as it always has been - a few very loud, highly annoyed people, for better or for worse, are the ones who report on these issues. This is hardly my first rodeo when it comes to combat flight sims and people thinking there is something wrong with X or Y.

 

And again, may I ask, why not just load up the game for 15 minutes, record a track or two, and then post it here? You see a problem, so post something we can all load up for ourselves (and I'm not talking about the gunner issue here - just the issue with the bomber armor).

Why don't we do that?  For years flight records of the wing issue were posted as requested.  That proved to be a fools errand.   Thankfully, that issue has at last been resolved.  So I'll ask the question, why not listen to the people who point out these types of issues?  Why not check them out?   I'll repeat myself Luke, the job of the beta tester is to identify issues and report them to the devs. Why not listen to the numerous claims of issues (rather than just offer some condescending, passive aggressive, dismissive comments), and if truly a trusted beta tester, take some real action.  Ie, load up the game and see if it can be replicated?  It's a bit of a challenge to get hit with a magic bullet ON DEMAND, but if you fly for very long, you'll see it.   A trusted Beta tester SHOULD have the ears of the devs.  You work together.  You have access we don't have. Use it.   If the beta testers pass this info on to the devs, and the devs ignore it, why even have Beta testors?  

[LukeFF]

59 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

How do you know its a such a minority? lots of players have just stop playing IL2 and already left , they are not even here anymore, a lot of people are not having fun anymore.

 

Lots of players? What, you have numbers to back this up?

 

Quit being so dramatic.

 

53 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Use it. 

 

I do use it. I and every other beta tester on the team reports issues as they are found and can be reliably reproduced.

 

Do I need to word it in some other way that all of us testers aren't paid to do this and do this in our spare time, after our day jobs are done and (in my case) when I know I won't upset my family for not spending time with them?

 

If you think us testers are doing some sort of slack job, then by all means volunteer to be a tester yourself. Otherwise, give it a rest already. We report the issues and the developers decide what to do with them. There's nothing more to say.

Edited December 21, 2022 by LukeFF

[Irishratticus72]

Just as well it's not "peace on earth", and "Goodwill to all men" time.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

It is as it always has been - a few very loud, highly annoyed people, for better or for worse, are the ones who report on these issues. This is hardly my first rodeo when it comes to combat flight sims and people thinking there is something wrong with X or Y.

 

And again, may I ask, why not just load up the game for 15 minutes, record a track or two, and then post it here? You see a problem, so post something we can all load up for ourselves (and I'm not talking about the gunner issue here - just the issue with the bomber armor).

 

It's not my first rodeo either but over the last year people have resorted to personal attacks, have laid accusations against me and others of personally spreading misinformation and conspiracy theories, with one individual asking the moderators to ban me. I'm going to be honest, I just had enough.

 

I love this game and I have been an ardent supporter for this and other iterations of the game over many years. However around a year ago something fundamentally changed that has made the bomber aspect of the game completely pointless. I think it is several issues (all linked) that are currently affecting what has happened. The "magic" shot could well be a result of the enhanced armour penetration properties that have introduced and of course the health buff being removed from pilots (Something I would want to happen) However as other have said we have a more realistic health system and armour  penetration values but the gunners AI and the DM are fairly simplified with gunners who can't hit for toffee. Ballistics also seem to play little to no part in what is happening with a direct line to the pilot.

 

I'm really getting too tired and too old and to be honest IL2 is firmly entrenched as a fighter "sim" now with a very loud fighter voice that is more than happy with the state of affairs. I can only hope that the next generation of flight simmers will enjoy a much more enhanced DM, AI etc and more of a challenge than just sitting on the six of bombers online, laughing their arses off as the gunners  pick their noses and they can send the pilot to digital heaven in a instant.       

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

One needs to remember that a loud, vocal minority

I think you are wrong , all I flew with daily last 10 years has abandoned this sim 

I talk in other groups and in fb pretty much all say servers are useless for anything else than dogfight.  
In these 10 years , not once has this game kept its old customers. It is a constant change luckily replaced by new people. 
what you call minority is the old , the remainder of them not yet given up on it. 
 

[migmadmarine]

Perhaps it would be worthwhile for the devs to do an annual user survey sent to the email associated with everyone's account like Dovetail does for train sim? Then (even if the results aren't publicly viewable) there could be a better idea of the relative priorities. Sure, you never get a full response rate, but it might provide a more accurate cross section of the community than any of the given forum/reddit/discord etc. 

[danielprates]

2 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

Perhaps it would be worthwhile for the devs to do an annual user survey sent to the email associated with everyone's account like Dovetail does for train sim? Then (even if the results aren't publicly viewable) there could be a better idea of the relative priorities. Sure, you never get a full response rate, but it might provide a more accurate cross section of the community than any of the given forum/reddit/discord etc. 

 

They actually did one of those a couple of years back.

[SCG_motoadve]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

Lots of players? What, you have numbers to back this up?

 

Quit being so dramatic.

Lots of guys from my squad had mention that are bored, some left, in other Discord groups too, and see it for yourself here in the forums, how many unhappy customers saying they dont play anymore, this plus people that left for good quietly.

Il2 turning towards an arcade sim, is loosing customers.

Do you actually play the game apart from beta testing?

I Invite you to do a quick mission you in a P51D against 8 FW190s, and see how stupidly easy is to shoot them down , get many pilot kills, set them on fire with jus a little 1 sec burst etc, very boring.

Or go fly against bombers and see how easy they are to shoot down, set them on fire and see how fragile they are, it is not challenging at all, which is very boring.

Go online fly a bomber, get killed with the first laser shot, fly a fighter you get also the snipe instant kill.

 

 

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Lots of players? What, you have numbers to back this up?

 

Quit being so dramatic.

 

 

I do use it. I and every other beta tester on the team reports issues as they are found and can be reliably reproduced.

 

Do I need to word it in some other way that all of us testers aren't paid to do this and do this in our spare time, after our day jobs are done and (in my case) when I know I won't upset my family for not spending time with them?

 

If you think us testers are doing some sort of slack job, then by all means volunteer to be a tester yourself. Otherwise, give it a rest already. We report the issues and the developers decide what to do with them. There's nothing more to say.

Slack job?   Because there's 8 pages of comments from players regarding the sniper precision of guns, and you casually dismiss it as loud and vocal minority of complainers?   Don't believe that was the case I made.  But....  it does seem well....let's just say not helpful.

 

Is it your job to be helpful?   I suppose not.  You do seem to be not listening to people much, and in a hurry to dismiss them., but perhaps that's just my interpretation.   Good suggestion of yours for me to be a beta tester.  I'll consider it.  I would suggest to you that even though it's not a paid gig for you, if you don't enjoy it, or don't have time for It, maybe it's not the right gig for you.  

 

I would think a dedicated beta tester would appreciate user input, and bug reporting from people actually using the product.  But it seems you just find it tiresome?   Am i wrong there?   Apologies if so, but that's the vibe I get from you.

 

One final question if you have the time...  you said you reported it to the devs?  May I ask how long ago, and did they follow up, or give you any response?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Cheers

Edited December 21, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

One final question if you have the time...  you said you reported it to the devs?  May I ask how long ago, and did they follow up, or give you any response?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Cheers

 

Long story short, because I think this'll be the better way to explain things:

 

The damage model has gone through a lot of changes recently, as everyone knows. One of those things was changing the "health" of the pilot so there were no more ridiculous things happening like a pilot taking a burst of .30 cal to the torso and flying on like nothing happened. This was thoroughly tested, the majority of us testers agreed this was a good change, so it was pushed out into the public build.

 

Why people think there is a magic bullet is because (again), sim pilots are far better at landing shots than most wartime pilots were, atmospheric effects like turbulence are seldom used in MP missions, and probably a lack of wake turbulence. So, it's little wonder that people are now suddenly complaining that their glorified aluminum cans or wooden boxes (speaking of fighters) suddenly cannot absorb the punishment they used to be able to before. Honest question here, and I'm not trying to be snarky: have you ever been in/around a WWII aircraft? The metal on these things is amazingly thin. 

 

And once again, and I'm going to say this for the last time, because I'm tired of repeating myself: I'm not in a hurry to dismiss anyone's claims. Quite the contrary - I'm trying to get people to see that if they think there is a problem, record the problem in a track file and post a report here. That's the same standard that the developers have of us when testing new builds, and it's the same standard everywhere else I've been a beta tester (including the Combat Mission 2 series of games). They aren't going to waste time chasing issues where the bulk of the complaint is something like "this plane gets shot down too often!" They need to have a starting point to know what it is that players are complaining about.

 

Is there a problem with bomber and bomber crew durability? Maybe, maybe not. That's why track files are needed to see what's going on. It's not some over-complicated request. ?

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

3 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

 

At that time during WWI, there was very little room in the cockpit for a parachute...  there was also the weight to consider, as it could have a detrimental effect on early aircraft performance and handling.

Also, the RFC Air Board put out a report declaring “It is the opinion of the board that the presence of such an apparatus might impair the fighting spirit of pilots and cause them to abandon machines which might otherwise be capable of returning to base for repair”. 

 

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Long story short, because I think this'll be the better way to explain things:

 

The damage model has gone through a lot of changes recently, as everyone knows. One of those things was changing the "health" of the pilot so there were no more ridiculous things happening like a pilot taking a burst of .30 cal to the torso and flying on like nothing happened. This was thoroughly tested, the majority of us testers agreed this was a good change, so it was pushed out into the public build.

 

Why people think there is a magic bullet is because (again), sim pilots are far better at landing shots than most wartime pilots were, atmospheric effects like turbulence are seldom used in MP missions, and probably a lack of wake turbulence. So, it's little wonder that people are now suddenly complaining that their glorified aluminum cans or wooden boxes (speaking of fighters) suddenly cannot absorb the punishment they used to be able to before. Honest question here, and I'm not trying to be snarky: have you ever been in/around a WWII aircraft? The metal on these things is amazingly thin. 

 

And once again, and I'm going to say this for the last time, because I'm tired of repeating myself: I'm not in a hurry to dismiss anyone's claims. Quite the contrary - I'm trying to get people to see that if they think there is a problem, record the problem in a track file and post a report here. That's the same standard that the developers have of us when testing new builds, and it's the same standard everywhere else I've been a beta tester (including the Combat Mission 2 series of games). They aren't going to waste time chasing issues where the bulk of the complaint is something like "this plane gets shot down too often!" They need to have a starting point to know what it is that players are complaining about.

 

Is there a problem with bomber and bomber crew durability? Maybe, maybe not. That's why track files are needed to see what's going on. It's not some over-complicated request. ?

I'll point out, you didn't answer the question, but instead repeated the canned response about posting threads, which has already been proven to be a waste of time, and certainly not effective.

 

Yes I have been inside WW2 aircraft (P40, and B17) (not that that has anything to do with the complaints regarding the sniper like precision of air and ground mounted guns firing at a moving object).  But I digress.

 

Your point seems to be that we, the product consumer should flood the developers with track recordings that they will likely reject or ignore (ie wingoffs) for a very long time.  To me, this is ludicrous.  All I was trying to suggest  is that someone, who already has ( or should have) an open channel with the developers, step up, and see that they are aware of this issue, and hopefully assist them in implementing a fix. It seems we have a different understanding of the function of beta testers.

 

In 40+ years of software development , I personally relied on my testers to give me details about issues.  Thier input was not only essential , but also invaluable.  They sorted out the real issues, from the "user errors". They were a critical part of the development  and post production support efforts.

 

It was expected, that as part of thier role, they would personally investigate new issues, and sort out the real issues, from the false alarms.   I would not have wanted every user flooding my team with perceived issues. They provided a buffer to my dev teams, which allowed them to stay focused on real issues.

 

In summary Luke, the issue is the sniper like laser accuracy of bullets fired from a moving object (as well as ground fire), at LONG RANGE), at a moving object, killing the pilot In  one shot.  It is not realistic at all.  It's a joy killer, and one that needs attention.  

 

I've gotten mixed signals from you on this.  First you casually dismissed it as loud mouth cry babies. Then you say you have reported it to the devs, but you declined to say when you reported, or if they are looking into it.  Just more "post tracks" .  Brother, we have all been down that road. It's ineffective, and a poor business model.

 

I'm done here, do something, do nothing ,  it's your option.

Edited December 22, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[Jaws2002]

 

 I think one of the issues is bullet energy retention after it passed through a bunch of junk inside the plane. It's not just the armor that's stopping/ slowing down bullets.  WW2 testing proved that, just because a bullet can penetrate a certain thickness of armor in a sterile test,  when that armor is inside a plane and the bullet has to pass through other things before it got to the armor, the penetration is vastly reduced.    I think we have that issue here. 

   I do find the P-51B extremely effective at shooting planes down, with just four heavy MG's. I prefer it to the D version.

      However, I recently flew the Hurricane, with the default armament quite a bit. It's quite a workout to get kills. The pattern is always the same. You have to get really close, so the bullets still have high velocity and you have to aim and shoot from a side, around the armor. Fire or a pilot kill are the only things that could bring a kill with rifle caliber guns.  Shooting from beyond 250 meters does nothing. Just some fuel/coolant leak, witch is correct in my book.  So in that respect, I don't see a problem. 

  I don't think we need major changes, but some fine tuning may be a good idea. 

 

[purK]

If you think there was some dramatic increase in pilot kills, it's not true. Having spent 6,500 hours of my life playing and testing this game, I can tell you there is hardly a difference from how it was before.  If you don't believe it, go look at some statistics, it's all there for you to read and compare every plane before and after the dm updates.

https://combatbox.net/en/

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/en/

http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/

P51D July 2022, before the last dm update:



P51D September 2022, after the last dm update:



109K4 July 2022, before the last dm update



109K4 September 2022, after the last dm udate

[Charon]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

This was thoroughly tested, the majority of us testers agreed this was a good change, so it was pushed out into the public build.

And it was a good change! It was the best change the game has gotten in the time I've been playing!

 

Am I the only one who remembers when Spitfires and Tempests were the only western fighters worth flying, because they carried HE?

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

1 hour ago, Krupnski said:

If you think there was some dramatic increase in pilot kills, it's not true. Having spent 6,500 hours of my life playing and testing this game, I can tell you there is hardly a difference from how it was before.  If you don't believe it, go look at some statistics, it's all there for you to read and compare every plane before and after the dm updates.

https://combatbox.net/en/

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/en/

http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/

P51D July 2022, before the last dm update:



P51D September 2022, after the last dm update:



109K4 July 2022, before the last dm update



109K4 September 2022, after the last dm udate

Got same stats for November?  FC please. IIRC, the one hit wonder stuff started in November (shortly before the pilot kill thread was started.  So November and December more relevant numbers for comparison.  And just to be clear,it's the 1 hit wonders,  pilot kill from a distance I'm trying to bring attention to.

 

Thank you.

Edited December 22, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[LukeFF]

58 minutes ago, Charon said:

And it was a good change! It was the best change the game has gotten in the time I've been playing!

 

Absolutely ??

[purK]

27 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Got same stats for November?  FC please.

 

Thank you.

 

 

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

12 minutes ago, Krupnski said:

 

 

And those are 1 hit sniper pilot kills from a distance? Or do those stats not include distance as a factor?  The long range shots are the primary problem imo.  Also..can you please explain the calculation for "a snipe"?

Thank you.

Edited December 22, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[purK]

What does distance matter? It's a rifle caliber bullet with no armor in the way... If it's still moving fast enough to hit you, it's likely able to kill you.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Really?   Wow.   Seriously...distance is what this entire thing is about.  The long range magic single bullet.

 

And yes of course it "might" still kill you, but the odds of it hitting you are extreme.

Edited December 22, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[purK]

My man it's a rapid firing machine gun.. if you're running away or doing weak maneuvers, anybody can get lucky. More importantly, people have hundreds, some thousands of hours in this game and flight sims in general... I myself have 6,500 hours here. That's a lot of time to work on your aim.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

At any rate, I see this going nowhere.  I'm done.  Thank you for the responses.

[SCG_motoadve]

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

sim pilots are far better at landing shots than most wartime pilots were,

Because its a lot easier, with no torque modeled, recoil, wake turbulence, pilot workload among other things.

So simple DM and FM makes for ver easy shooting in IL2 and   now you have normal pilot health, of course we get more pilot kills, its just math.

[BraveSirRobin]

5 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Because its a lot easier, with no torque modeled, recoil, wake turbulence, pilot workload among other things.

So simple DM and FM makes for ver easy shooting in IL2 and   now you have normal pilot health, of course we get more pilot kills, its just math.

None of which has changed since the game was introduced.  And people were whining about pilot kills in RoF even when it usually took 4 hits to kill a pilot.  It’s not new. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

5 hours ago, Krupnski said:

Having spent 6,500 hours of my life playing and testing this game,

Wow, that's impressive! How many hours in fighters? If you haven't had significant air time in bombers can you go and get some and then come back with some reports afterwards?

 

 

4 hours ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

At any rate, I see this going nowhere.  I'm done.  Thank you for the responses.

It's a complete waste of time, the bomber game will become completely irrelevant, if it already hasn't. The fighter boys (and girls) have got what they want haven't they.