Snipe news...

[Trooper117]

The Snipe is due to be released next week... Now I wait to see what you chaps think of it after it's arrival.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Where did you see this ?

[Trooper117]

18 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Where did you see this ?

 

Do you live on the moon?... it was in the DD.

[US41_Low]

3 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Where did you see this ?

Developer diary, I think the very last sentence.

 

edit: they removed the announcement.

Edited December 16, 2022 by US96_Low

[Zooropa_Fly]

[Trooper117]

Clangers!...

[US41_Low]

I don’t understand why you deleted the snipe announcement and then released the snipe?

[Wardog5711]

It was having issues in Beta when the text was pulled.

If it had not been fixed in time, it would not have made this release.

[BMA_Hellbender]

Just gave her a spin: she looks amazing and has no apparent flaws in the modeling, even the FFB implementation is good (I was afraid of this as the Sopwith Triplane has some FFB centering issues that still haven't been addressed).

 

Other than that it's very much the plane I expected it to be: exactly in between the Camel and Dolphin in terms of everything (responsiveness, ease of flying, visibility), but with a better climb than both. Better climb than the SPAD XIII, even. Without a doubt the best machine on Entente, except maybe for the newly fixed S.E.5a. Now that it no longer falls apart when you sneeze at it, it's hard to compete with the S.E.5a's sheer speed.

[Trooper117]

7 minutes ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

Just gave her a spin: she looks amazing and has no apparent flaws in the modeling, even the FFB implementation is good (I was afraid of this as the Sopwith Triplane has some FFB centering issues that still haven't been addressed).

 

Other than that it's very much the plane I expected it to be: exactly in between the Camel and Dolphin in terms of everything (responsiveness, ease of flying, visibility), but with a better climb than both. Better climb than the SPAD XIII, even. Without a doubt the best machine on Entente, except maybe for the newly fixed S.E.5a. Now that it no longer falls apart when you sneeze at it, it's hard to compete with the S.E.5a's sheer speed.

 

Thanks for this... I shall probably buy this now as a Christmas present to me 

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Why doesn't the Snipe have a parachute?  Certainly Entente pilots had them by the time the Snipe was produced?  No?

 

But so far in limited testing, the Snipe seems great!

Edited December 21, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 minute ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Why doesn't the Snipe have a parachute?  Certainly Entente pilots had them by the time the Snipe was produced?  No?

 

Parachutes never saw widespread use in airplanes during WWI, if anything the fact the Central has them on all planes is a bit of a stretch, and their reliability is exaggerated.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

8 minutes ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

 

Parachutes never saw widespread use in airplanes during WWI, if anything the fact the Central has them on all planes is a bit of a stretch, and their reliability is exaggerated.

Ok.  Thank you.

[Trooper117]

14 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Why doesn't the Snipe have a parachute?

 

At that time during WWI, there was very little room in the cockpit for a parachute...  there was also the weight to consider, as it could have a detrimental effect on early aircraft performance and handling.

Also, the RFC Air Board put out a report declaring “It is the opinion of the board that the presence of such an apparatus might impair the fighting spirit of pilots and cause them to abandon machines which might otherwise be capable of returning to base for repair”. 

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Not questioning your comments, but was my "impression", that those orders were rescinded late in the war.  

[Trooper117]

Could only find this... 

 

 ''The higher authorities in the RFC and the Air Board were opposed to the issuing of parachutes to pilots of heavier-than-air craft. It was felt at the time that a parachute might tempt a pilot to abandon his aircraft in an emergency rather than continuing the fight. The parachutes of the time were also heavy and cumbersome, and the added weight was frowned upon by some experienced pilots as it adversely affected aircraft with already marginal performance. It was not until 16 September 1918 that an order was issued for all single-seater aircraft to be fitted with parachutes, and this did not eventuate until after the war''

 

Also, read all the way through this article... it explains in much more detail and makes more sense.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7hjd8g/whenwhy_did_the_raf_decide_to_equip_all_pilots/

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Trooper117

[ST_Catchov]

14 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

the RFC Air Board put out a report declaring “It is the opinion of the board that the presence of such an apparatus might impair the fighting spirit of pilots and cause them to abandon machines which might otherwise be capable of returning to base for repair”. 

 

It was a different world then, a different era of warfare. Luckily, we have learned from history. Nobody today in their right mind would send thousands to a pointless death in the name of war.

[Wardog5711]

Quote

Nobody today in their right mind would send thousands to a pointless death in the name of war.

That is minefield we are not going to cross.  Lets just move along on that one. 

[Zooropa_Fly]

I can't get the bugger started ?

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

12 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

I can't get the bugger started ?

 

Don't worry,  I heard it wasn't that good.

[BMA_West]

Fiddling a trifle with the fuel leaning settings ending with 100% mix or that is what did it for me.

My problem is leaning the mix as apparently there is no RPM meter.

 

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

Started ok on a warm map.

First go was on a winter map..

 

But aye, feels too much like a Dolphin to me !

[AndyJWest]

12 minutes ago, West said:

Fiddling a trifle with the fuel leaning settings ending with 100% mix or that is what did it for me.

My problem is leaning the mix as apparently there is no RPM meter.

 

[Trooper117]

What?... the Snipe?... yes, I'm loving it!

 

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, West said:

apparently there is no RPM meter.

 

 

LOL!

Edited December 22, 2022 by Trooper117

[BMA_West]

Thanks Andy, that's where the gismo finds itself ))) did not find it yesterday night LOL

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

21 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Started ok on a warm map.

First go was on a winter map..

 

But aye, feels too much like a Dolphin to me !

 

I told you so....third member for the N28 Dolphin junkyard

[BMA_Hellbender]

36 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Started ok on a warm map.

First go was on a winter map..

 

But aye, feels too much like a Dolphin to me !

 

It is a Dolphin (with a huge rotary engine), which was unironically one of the best planes of the war. Sadly the Dolphin never got the high compression Wolseley Viper which the later S.E.5a models got, so in terms of speed and high altitude performance it's not quite all that if you compare it to the S.E.5a (Viper) and Fokker D.VIIF.

 

What the Snipe has on both the Camel and Dolphin is climb, meaning it can climb almost toe to toe with Fokker D.VIIF at sea level. Almost. And of course it still comfortably outturns the Fokker D.VIIF, just not as easily as the Camel, and you're not supposed to turnfight the Dr.I with it, which you wouldn't do with a Dolphin either (just fly away and come back with friends).

 

 

25 minutes ago, J5_Klugermann said:

I told you so....third member for the N28 Dolphin junkyard

 

The Dolphin in its present state is not a junkyard plane anymore (since they fixed the DM), especially for early 1918. It may be a tad slow, but it outflies the vanilla Fokker D.VII in every way and is on par with Fokker D.VIII. If the Albatros D.Va and Pfalz D.IIIa had a realistic top speed (+10km/h TAS) and rate of turn (-2 seconds at sea level) it would be more than a match for them.

 

N28 is indeed in need of an urgent fix, but the Snipe is fine as-is and is very much a late war plane if flown to its strengths.

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

Vanilla D7 is a unicorn on MP.

 

 

I'm one of the few who has the nads to fly it.

Edited December 22, 2022 by J5_Klugermann

[AndyJWest]

It does seem to be a bit eager to arseupwardsify itself: 

[BMA_Hellbender]

12 minutes ago, J5_Klugermann said:

Vanilla D7 is a unicorn on MP.

 

Because:

 

• Albatros and Pfalz are UFOs at sea level (which they weren't), so why pick the vanilla D7?
   
• Clerget Camel almost has the speed to match the Bentley BR.1 Camel, which it didn't (it's off by as little as 2-5km/h, which should be the slight advantage the vanilla D7 has over it)
   
• And of course it's bad if you compare it to the D7F (or even the Dr.I), which is why we need at least the 200hp D7 added as a variant

 

Just wait until we get the Siemens-Schuckert D.IV and even the D7F will look tame.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by =IRFC=Hellbender

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

2 hours ago, West said:

Fiddling a trifle with the fuel leaning settings ending with 100% mix or that is what did it for me.

My problem is leaning the mix as apparently there is no RPM meter.

 

 

It's hard to see, but kinda hidden to the right of the right gun

[US41_Low]

1 hour ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

 

It is a Dolphin (with a huge rotary engine), which was unironically one of the best planes of the war. Sadly the Dolphin never got the high compression Wolseley Viper which the later S.E.5a models got, so in terms of speed and high altitude performance it's not quite all that if you compare it to the S.E.5a (Viper) and Fokker D.VIIF.

 

What the Snipe has on both the Camel and Dolphin is climb, meaning it can climb almost toe to toe with Fokker D.VIIF at sea level. Almost. And of course it still comfortably outturns the Fokker D.VIIF, just not as easily as the Camel, and you're not supposed to turnfight the Dr.I with it, which you wouldn't do with a Dolphin either (just fly away and come back with friends).

 

 

 

The Dolphin in its present state is not a junkyard plane anymore (since they fixed the DM), especially for early 1918. It may be a tad slow, but it outflies the vanilla Fokker D.VII in every way and is on par with Fokker D.VIII. If the Albatros D.Va and Pfalz D.IIIa had a realistic top speed (+10km/h TAS) and rate of turn (-2 seconds at sea level) it would be more than a match for them.

 

N28 is indeed in need of an urgent fix, but the Snipe is fine as-is and is very much a late war plane if flown to its strengths.

Im confused because I hear from people (I haven’t purchased it yet) that  not only can the snipe not out turn the D7F, but it can’t even out turn the spad 13.

 

But you’re saying the snipe can comfortably out turn the D7F. These are wildly different results. What’s different do you think? 
 

If the snipe could indeed turn well enough to outturn a D7F then I’d tend to agree it’s a pretty decent sounding plane. 

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

Both DVIIs don't turn well particularly after roll rate was nerfed.  Vanilla is almost in Pfalz XII junkyard.

[BMA_Hellbender]

19 minutes ago, US41_Low said:

Im confused because I hear from people (I haven’t purchased it yet) that  not only can the snipe not out turn the D7F, but it can’t even out turn the spad 13.

 

But you’re saying the snipe can comfortably out turn the D7F. These are wildly different results. What’s different do you think? 
 

If the snipe could indeed turn well enough to outturn a D7F then I’d tend to agree it’s a pretty decent sounding plane. 

That’s preposterous, the Snipe is lighter, has lower wing loading and more horsepower than the Dolphin…

 

and apparently you’re right… What

[SYN_Vander]

55 minutes ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

That’s preposterous, the Snipe is lighter, has lower wing loading and more horsepower than the Dolphin…

 

and apparently you’re right… What

 

Don't forget the big difference in aspect ratio of the wings...

Edited December 22, 2022 by SYN_Vander

[BMA_Hellbender]

  

23 minutes ago, SYN_Vander said:

Don't forget the big difference in aspect ratio of the wings...

 

Just to be clear here:

 

• Sopwith Camel: empty weight 422kg / wing area 21.5m2 = 19.6 kg/m2
   
• Sopwith Dolphin: empty weight 645kg / wing area 24.4m2 = 26.4 kg/m2
   
• Sopwith Snipe: empty weight 595kg / wing area 25.2m2 = 23.6 kg/m2

 

And for reference:

 

• SPAD XIII (with those terrible SPAD wings that are bad for turning): empty weight 601.5kg / wing area 21m2 = 28.6 kg/M2
   
• Fokker D.VIIF (with the thick Fokker wings): empty weight 670kg / wing area 20.5m2 = 32.6 kg/m2

 

So the Snipe having worse sustained turn than all of that is purely aspect ratio? I find that very hard to believe for what amounts to a Camel / Dolphin hybrid with a more powerful engine. Even the aspect ratio is in between the Camel and Dolphin. Well, sure, maybe everything else is wrong and the Snipe is right, all the other FMs are almost 10 years old now.

 

I need to do some tests with low fuel.

Edited December 22, 2022 by =IRFC=Hellbender

[Charlo-VR]

This seems to be the place to cross-post this from

I'm going to need some expert's help on the pilots notes for the Snipe. The engine specifications in the game are as spare as for the other WWI aircraft, which is why for the Flying Circus aircraft I've been using the engine specifications pulled from the table in the old ROF manual.

 

But since the Snipe was never in ROF I don't have any specifications to draw from.

 

So, for me to create pilots notes for the Snipe I'll need it's equivalent data like you can see in what we currently have for the Camel, which I share here as an example:

 

 

For the Snipe I can see in the game specifications that the max level speed at sea level is 197 kph, so about 122 mph. I also can see in the parked Snipe that since it's a radial it has mixture and blip, and the Snipe also has elevator trim.

 

I just need someone to provide the other Snipe numbers and spin recovery like we have for the Camel in the example above. Once I have that I can create pilots notes for the Snipe that look similar to the above for the Camel.  

[BMA_Hellbender]

The Snipe has a lot more max fuel than the Dolphin, like 50 liters more, in case people are flight testing at 100% (as I was)

 

A few notes after a few brief turn tests (sea level, Kuban autumn):

• With 20 liters of fuel after all the initial energy has been burnt off she appears to turn a smidge faster than the Dolphin, which means better than the D7F
   
• Both the Camel and Dolphin have a smaller turn radius

[SYN_Vander]

1 hour ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

  

 

Just to be clear here:

 

• Sopwith Camel: empty weight 422kg / wing area 21.5m2 = 19.6 kg/m2
   
• Sopwith Dolphin: empty weight 645kg / wing area 24.4m2 = 26.4 kg/m2
   
• Sopwith Snipe: empty weight 595kg / wing area 25.2m2 = 23.6 kg/m2

 

And for reference:

 

• SPAD XIII (with those terrible SPAD wings that are bad for turning): empty weight 601.5kg / wing area 21m2 = 28.6 kg/M2
   
• Fokker D.VIIF (with the thick Fokker wings): empty weight 670kg / wing area 20.5m2 = 32.6 kg/m2

 

So the Snipe having worse sustained turn than all of that is purely aspect ratio? I find that very hard to believe for what amounts to a Camel / Dolphin hybrid with a more powerful engine. Even the aspect ratio is in between the Camel and Dolphin. Well, sure, maybe everything else is wrong and the Snipe is right, all the other FMs are almost 10 years old now.

 

I need to do some tests with low fuel.

 

Haven't done the math, but just saying it's too simple to compare wing loading numbers alone. But I think we all agree it should turn better than the SPAD XIII.

[BMA_Hellbender]

38 minutes ago, SYN_Vander said:

 

Haven't done the math, but just saying it's too simple to compare wing loading numbers alone. But I think we all agree it should turn better than the SPAD XIII.

 

All tests done with 20l of fuel (the Snipe has 176l, which beats the Camel's already massive reservoir):

 

My verdict at the moment is that her rate of turn to the left (which appears to be slightly better/easier than to the right) is around 9.5s. That's good, even compared to the Dolphin which is around 10s, the Fokker D.VIIF also, and the SPAD which is around 11s. However her optimal cornering speed appears to be around 140km/h, whereas the Camel and Dolphin turn optimally at around 120km/h and the D.VIIF and SPAD at 100km/h. In other words: the Snipe turns a wider circle than most, but does it rather fast.

 

If you fly with low fuel and fight vertically, she's quite good, though you're probably still better off in a Camel at sea level, heck even in a Dolphin in certain situations where you'd like to separate horizontally faster, and I'm sure you don't want to run into a D.VIIF at high altitude. It's tough, because her climb is really good, but that turn radius is a killer.

 

I checked and the N28 is still way, way worse, but the Snipe is definitely not a replacement for a (Bentley) Camel.