Battle over Europe

[CountZero]

With so many ppl bored by 109/190 combos, iar80/81 will sure be top seller and we wont have more slightly differant 109/190 then we have now in game as collector airplanes... surely...

[Vishnu]

On 12/1/2022 at 8:06 AM, PatrickAWlson said:

Multiple camps with different wants.  SP campaign players would probably be good with late war Russia for campaign completeness.  People who want as large a variety of aircraft as possible and are not terribly interested in careers would not want it.  They would like to see something that brings in as many different aircraft types as possible.  Then there are people who are really more interested  in the Pacific than Europe, so they want the Pacific.  If you're a lover of Italian planes you might want Italy or Med.  None of these are invalid.  They are just different wish lists.

 

The one that ticks off most of my boxes is France 1940.  We would get some interesting variants like the Ju87B, Hurricane I and Spitfire I while also opening the door for some brand new types.  French aircraft.  Do 17 or Hs123.  Blenheim.  Lots of possibilities.  The early German planes would also be applicable to Moscow.  I would not object to a 7/3 aircraft ration instead of 5/5 as most of the interesting stuff is on the Allied side.  Still ... France 1940?  Who cares?  Last two modules were western Europe.  Let's do something new!  Another Spitfire, Hurricane, Spitfire, and Stuka?  Boring!

 

 

Shrug ... everybody has their wants and their reasons.

 

 

 

I would drop double for early war France! You forgot the French Dewo 520! Plus all the early French, British and German armour, like the Vickers, Char BiS, Renault R35, panzer II, etc. 

[Trooper117]

God, this thread has me in stitches... every time I  have a little look in to see what has been thrown into the frying pan of doom and gloom, I just crease up...

The best bit of mayhem so far is the notion that just because people are having a moan about the Eastern Front, they are then blamed by the EF faithful that it's their fault that the devs have decided to do something new!

Time for a reality check chaps... if anyone thinks for one minute that Han and Loft hang onto all the musings of us lot, and then make a decision based on all of our drivel, then they really need to rein in, dismount and take their donkey for a cool drink.

Before they had their interviews and the stream, they had already decided what they were going to do and what direction they were heading with the game.

They had already started work in that direction and they told us they were quite excited by it.

So no, what the devs are doing is not because our ramblings have made them choose another path at all.

 

For all we know, what comes next may be some corner of the Eastern Front we wouldn't expect them to do, and whatever it is, most here will probably buy into it regardless...

[BlitzPig_EL]

14 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

But did you do it while hammered? That's the important question.

 

 

 

On occasion, yes.    

[oc2209]

17 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

Late war Eastern Front can be done satisfactorily with some collector planes

 

So, planes without a map.

 

When I suggest this, I get laugh emojis from Luke. Wonder why those are missing from your post.

 

Talk about a double standard.

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, oc2209 said:

 

So, planes without a map.

 

When I suggest this, I get laugh emojis from Luke. Wonder why those are missing from your post.

 

Talk about a double standard.

He run out of emojis for this week

 

[Lusekofte]

On 12/1/2022 at 3:25 PM, CountZero said:

Why ? , its obvious :

La-7 , Yak-3 , Bf-109G-10 , Fw-190A-9 and Ta-152H,

 

??

[Lusekofte]

22 hours ago, oc2209 said:

And would you so easily live with a similarly glaring hole in the American or British lineup?

Yes I can, in fact wish I never bought boop. 
I like all my Eastern front packs. 
The only one not accepting devs decision whatever it is , seems to be you. 
I buy anything they come up with if it contain anything of interest. That goes for PTO too. I reject a new dlc if it has nothing of interest to me. And fact is, you reject that freedom of choice to all others than you. 
This game evolved into something I in general do not like, then they come up with something I totally like. I am no longer a blind supporter, but they sure keep my attention 

[oc2209]

4 minutes ago, Lusekofte said:

The only one not accepting devs decision whatever it is , seems to be you. 
I buy anything they come up with if it contain anything of interest. That goes for PTO too. I reject a new dlc if it has nothing of interest to me. And fact is, you reject that freedom of choice to all others than you.

 

No, my stance is very clear and very logical.

 

Every major power in the sim has a mix of some early planes, some late planes.

 

Only the Russians lack late planes.

 

Period, end of story, nothing to debate.

 

You don't like fighters? You don't care about late war fighter-based scenarios? Fine. That's your call. But it doesn't invalidate my point in the least. Not one iota.

 

People who argue that another Eastern Front DLC isn't worth making at all, ever, are the ones who are 'rejecting freedom of choice.'

 

You're perfectly free to not buy a late war Eastern Front DLC that totally deserves to be made, going by the logic of all other DLCs released to date.

[Lusekofte]

Well if developers find it economical sustainable, they make it. But this is more than what is lacking. This is what triggers a growing community in flight sims. 
If they go PTO more eyebrows will be lifted among many not yet in. If they go east they met very well be loosing all interest by many no matter time frame. 
I was a little pissed when they started west with bobp. Knowing that would rule out France and Poland campaign. I find western campaigns got much bigger lack in content than east 

[oc2209]

20 minutes ago, Lusekofte said:

If they go PTO more eyebrows will be lifted among many not yet in. If they go east they met very well be loosing all interest by many no matter time frame.

 

Well, as I said before, PTO was never going to get made at all (or at least a very low probability), according to Jason.

 

So, basically the math of the situation goes from:

 

No Pacific, ever, to: Pacific either 2 or 4 years from now.

 

Somehow, we all endured the idea of Pacific never happening. We didn't give up sims.

 

That's why I fail to see what difference another couple of years makes.

 

If the Eastern Front isn't finished now, it strikes me as incredibly unlikely that the dev focus will shift to Pacific and then come back to Euro. Releasing collector planes for old Euro maps won't be the same thing.

Edited December 3, 2022 by oc2209

[DD_Arthur]

16 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

People who argue that another Eastern Front DLC isn't worth making at all, ever, 

Where has anyone said that?

I fully expect them to return to the eastern front at some point and fair enough, it’s part of a huge history that’s worth telling.

However, if we go there now it’ll be yet another dose of what we’ve had five times before.

I wanna break from that right now.

 

 

[oc2209]

3 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

Where has anyone said that?

I fully expect them to return to the eastern front at some point and fair enough, it’s part of a huge history that’s worth telling.

However, if we go there now it’ll be yet another dose of what we’ve had five times before.

I wanna break from that right now.

 

Last page:

 

Quote

Late war Eastern Front can be done satisfactorily with some collector planes

 

Also note that just because others don't openly express the same opinion of never wanting to see another EF DLC, doesn't mean they don't feel the same way. I could scour the forum to find all the anti-EF posts that have been made over the years to make a clear correlation, but I don't really feel like it.

 

More to the point, however, is that I believe it simply wouldn't make sense to revisit a theater the devs have no intention of staying in.

 

Like, Pacific module 1, Pacific module 2, Final Eastern Front module, Pacific module 3, Pacific module 4. Does that make sense to you, from a developer standpoint?

 

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to end Europe now and begin the Pacific next module, and stay in the Pacific for years to come?

[DD_Arthur]

5 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

Last page:

 

  Surely you jest?

 

Don't worry, no need for a reply. I'm done....

[oc2209]

5 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

  Surely you jest?

 

Don't worry, no need for a reply. I'm done....

 

What's with the overreaction?

 

You asked where somebody said 'don't ever do another Eastern Front DLC.' You literally asked me exactly that.

 

I replied that somebody said just that, on the previous page.

 

Am I speaking Klingon right now, or what?

 

*Edit: Do I really need to elaborate that a few collector planes does not make a full Eastern Front DLC, with career?

Edited December 3, 2022 by oc2209

[danielprates]

This thread has so outlived it's usefullness

Edited December 3, 2022 by danielprates

[oc2209]

4 minutes ago, danielprates said:

This thread has so outlived it's usefullness

 

It's not my fault I have to make superfluous posts to clear up unwarranted confusion over exceedingly linear statements.

[Gambit21]

38 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

Where has anyone said that?

I fully expect them to return to the eastern front at some point and fair enough, it’s part of a huge history that’s worth telling.

However, if we go there now it’ll be yet another dose of what we’ve had five times before.

I wanna break from that right now.

 

 

Yes…a nice, long, multi-multi-release break from 109 vs X.  If it never goes back - great.

[oc2209]

11 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Yes…a nice, long, multi-multi-release break from 109 vs X.  If it never goes back - great.

 

Thanks for furnishing me with another example! Very kind of you.

 

This is the crux of the problem. Why end Europe without finishing it out properly?

 

Why would it be:

 

A) Logical from a development standpoint. We've already been told that the Pacific can't be done right now, and presumably must be done in the next development cycle. Anybody clinging to the delusion that the currently-in-development DLC is anywhere in the Pacific theater is hoping that somehow CBI fits into a semantic loophole.

 

B) Fair to Russian aviation, which lacks all the late war stuff that everybody else has.

 

C) Fair to Eastern Front players who cannot finish out their careers.

Edited December 3, 2022 by oc2209

[Gambit21]

4 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

Thanks for furnishing me with another example! Very kind of you.

 

This is the crux of the problem. Why end Europe without finishing it out properly?

 

Why would it be:

 

A) Logical from a development standpoint. We've already been told that the Pacific can't be done right now, and presumably must be done in the next development cycle. Anybody clinging to the delusion that the currently-in-development DLC is anywhere in the Pacific theater is hoping that somehow CBI fits into a semantic loophole.

 

B) Fair to Russian aviation, which lacks all the late war stuff that everybody else has.

 

C) Fair to Eastern Front players who cannot finish out their careers.

Because there’s no need to “finish it properly” That’s a nebulous, arbitrary and ultimately unachievable goal anyway as the goalposts are not static. Someone else might not think Europe is “finished properly” until there’s massive B-17 formations.

 

It’s much better to add variety to the sim. It’s been long enough. 

 

Anyway the debate is pointless. There’s something coming next which is different (not late Europe) then PTO.

 

 

[oc2209]

2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Because there’s no need to “finish it properly” That’s a nebulous, arbitrary and ultimately unachievable goal anyway as the goalposts are not static. Someone else might not think Europe is “finished properly” until there’s massive B-17 formations.

 

We've already been told that making large bombers is not desirable/feasible from a development perspective. Therefore, we cannot expect things we (should) clearly understand will not be made.

 

Same reason we can't expect large cities and Italy.

 

There's no limitation to making a late Eastern Front DLC. No limitation at all.

 

Once again, someone is totally ignoring the substance of my argument.

 

Everybody has the same kinds of late war stuff, except for the Russians. That's the substance of not only my argument, but the entire thread's point.

 

Making one more DLC--not two, not three--would solve the problem, the disparity, the unfairness. Permanently.

 

6 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Anyway the debate is pointless.

 

Actually, it's not. It highlights the level of resistance to a very simple idea, a very simple concept of fairness and equality in plane lineups.

[LukeFF]

oc, has your typewriter run out of ink yet? ? Seriously, man, take a break.

[oc2209]

5 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

oc, has your typewriter run out of ink yet? ? Seriously, man, take a break.

 

Well, in my defense, I'm not the one resisting a very simple concept of fairness/equality. I'm not the one doing mental gymnastics to justify neglecting a set of planes I'm not interested in.

 

But yeah, I'll take that break now.

[Gambit21]

17 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

I'm not the one doing mental gymnastics…

All evidence to the contrary.

I’m surprised you haven’t sprained something by now.

 

 

 

 

[Lusekofte]

All I see is a hole lot of enthusiasm. One has to have it in order to interact here. 
For me I need a stronger fix, I need some idyllic pacific island to blow up

[Strewth]

2 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

What's with the overreaction?

 

You asked where somebody said 'don't ever do another Eastern Front DLC.' You literally asked me exactly that.

 

I replied that somebody said just that, on the previous page.

 

Am I speaking Klingon right now, or what?

 

*Edit: Do I really need to elaborate that a few collector planes does not make a full Eastern Front DLC, with career?

This is actually the Klingion translation.

nuqDaq 'oH ghu'vam?

veSDuj Dara'taHvIS, jInISbe'taH. chongaghpu' 'e' DaHar.

qechmey vIDel.

tlhIngan jIH'a'?

QongDaqvetlh Do'qu'vaD lo'taHbogh *be'terIS*, 'e' tu'lu'bogh?

Cheers.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Strewth

[CUJO_1970]

2 minutes ago, Strewth said:

This is actually the Klingion translation.

nuqDaq 'oH ghu'vam?

veSDuj Dara'taHvIS, jInISbe'taH. chongaghpu' 'e' DaHar.

qechmey vIDel.

tlhIngan jIH'a'?

QongDaqvetlh Do'qu'vaD lo'taHbogh *be'terIS*, 'e' tu'lu'bogh?

Cheers.

 

This is not an accurate translation. There is a no definite article 'e' in Klingon...it should read simply 'chongaghpu' DaHar' and 'be'terIS*, tu'lu'bogh?'

 

The 'e' completely changes the meaning and was likely added by people with an agenda against 109s.

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Lusekofte said:

All I see is a hole lot of enthusiasm. One has to have it in order to interact here. 
For me I need a stronger fix, I need some idyllic pacific island to blow up

 

Well said.

[SharkWolf2022]

1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

This is not an accurate translation. There is a no definite article 'e' in Klingon...it should read simply 'chongaghpu' DaHar' and 'be'terIS*, tu'lu'bogh?'

 

The 'e' completely changes the meaning and was likely added by people with an agenda against 109s.

Just wait till someone starts speaking Romulan. Then there will be true peace.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Qapla'

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

I'm still thinking mancuria a reasonable guess on next GB..

 

https://www.warbirdforum.com/nomonhan.htm

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

18 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Nope - I’d need a map and career to fly them in. So if EF was to be finished it had to be via a full release. Just like I couldn’t just get a wildcat and a zero, fly them over the Black Sea in qmb and claim Pacific’s done. 

We already have five Eastern Front maps and two Western Front ones. With how generic and lacking in details they already are (i.e. no hedgerows in England), the maps we have would suffice.

 

This is nothing like flying Pacific planes over the maps we have. Also, career mode is not very good or immersive anyway with time dilation so that doesn't matter to me at all. PWCG, scripted campaigns, and online are all far better.

Edited December 4, 2022 by drewm3i-VR

[BalticDude]

On 12/1/2022 at 12:35 AM, SharkWolf2022 said:

I t ally don't understand it. Soviet career is impossible to "finish" as it ends in 1943. 

The Soviet roster is also incomplete as it lacks any true late war planes like the Yak-3, La-7, TU2 and late model IL-2s or IL-10s. 

 

Why do most people on the forum seem to hate the idea of a new dlc being a late war Eastern Front module when he have zero so far? 

 

 

I agree. Most hyped theatres are Late-Eastern Front and Pacific.

[Eisenfaustus]

3 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

We already have five Eastern Front maps 

Two of which don‘t feature a career and are also no part of pwcg. 
Also none of which saw historically La7 or Bf109g10 in action. 
 

3 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

This is nothing like flying Pacific planes over the maps we have.

 

For me it is. Dogfighting a La5fn in an Fw190d9 over Kuban feels for me exactly like dogfighting a wildcat in a zero over the Black Sea: Visually all is fine but it lacks historical context. 
 

3 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

Also, career mode is not very good or immersive anyway with time dilation so that doesn't matter to me at all. PWCG, scripted campaigns, and online are all far better.

I understand that. I love pwcg - yet my willingness to get ahistorical in a WWII sim is limited. Doing BoB stuff on 1944 Normandy map is no problem for me. But doing it in 1941/42 planes is as far as I‘m willing to stretch. Pat‘s offering 1944/45 eastern front over Stalingrad or Moscow area is great for all those who enjoy that. For me it doesn’t feel like the war is coming to an end if my mission briefing sends me patrolling over the Volga. 
And career has it’s own advantages to - ease of use and historical accuracy first among them. And other than Normandy‘s landing grounds my machine actually runs the careers on sparse density with tolerable TD. In fact I have basically the same TD problems in pwcg that I have in career. 
Scripted campaigns are cool but I prefer the career/pwcg concept of playing your alter ego through larger operations. 
Online is due to several reasons no option for me. 
 

TLDR

 

I understand your PoV but due to different preferences I don’t share it

[357th_KW]

47 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Pat‘s offering 1944/45 eastern front over Stalingrad or Moscow area is great for all those who enjoy that. For me it doesn’t feel like the war is coming to an end if my mission briefing sends me patrolling over the Volga. 
 

 

Just fly this over Frankfurt and pretend it's Frankfurt an der Oder.

[danielprates]

I often wondered when we would reach a point when we would start seeing "pto when?" type of threads in klingonese. Almost there!

Edited December 4, 2022 by danielprates

[Eisenfaustus]

2 hours ago, 357th_KW said:

 

Just fly this over Frankfurt and pretend it's Frankfurt an der Oder.

Actually if Pat set his 45 EF on the BoBp map it would feel better I think ^^

[Sobilak]

On 12/3/2022 at 12:23 AM, Gambit21 said:

 

I had a lot of fun in the Yak 1 back in the BoS day. Never touched any of them back in 46.

It took me a minute when BoS hit... still had PTSD because of the Yak 4 "noob clown car" from 46. Could do an Immelmann from 3k below me and be on my tail in seconds.

 

 

Thats the problem.

La-7 and Yak-3 has

- good max speed

- great maneuverability

At all good performance's

 

But still they was a technically unsophisticated aircraft's with pawerfull overheating engine's and in game (il2 1946) was like UFO'S (turn in few seconds without speed loss, or climb like modern jets without  energy loss  and you have to try very hard to overheat engine).

If they will be made like that in IL2GB, I don't think it will be good for game.

At all, i'm not against another Easter front theater (I prefer Vistyula-Oder offensive because i'm Polish and there fought some poland's units);

- Barbarossa

- Bagration

- Vistula-Oder

- Hungary

but still prefer something on west front 

- 1943/1944 air offensive

- north africa 1941/1943

and planset for it

 Spitfire F.IXC

P-51A/A36

P-38E

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Sobilak

[mazex]

Well - if they where a large western company the PTO would be a no brainer. But they are a small Russian company so I guess we will see more eastern front modules. Be sure, as Oleg would have said.

 

The module that I would love is "Bombers over Europe” with the B-17, B-24 and the Lancaster. Add some German night fighters based on already existing ac like the 110, Fw 190, Ju88. And the He 219 as a collectors ac. And maybe the B-25 as a flyable for some missions from Italy with a sarcastic attitude  Would love a Do 217 night fighter version as a collectors as well, which could be usable in many other modules as well.

Edited December 4, 2022 by mazex

[Gambit21]

41 minutes ago, mazex said:

Well - if they where a large western company the PTO would be a no brainer. But they are a small Russian company so I guess we will see more eastern front modules. Be sure, as Oleg would have said.

 

 

Don't be so sure.