Dog fighting help

[marshall]

Im a total noob when it comes to flight sims. Ive enjoyed ROF and im loving BOS. After some generaly basic flight practice ive started Dog fighting....and im absolutley useless lol.

 

I seem to get in the same situations everytime. Normally spinning out or the aircraft struggling to make the turns/manovers i want it to.

 

The bulk of the time we are just trying to out turn each other, constantly crossing by one another, which leads me into these stalled turns where the aircraft pulls out of a over ambitious manover.

 

Just a few basic tips would be great.

Do i keep full power on whilst fighting? Is there a certain aircraft i can use thats easier for a novice? Any basic manovers to get me in a better attacking position.

 

I use an xbox pad as i can use the right analogue for the pilots head tracking. Another thing i struggle with in battle. Keeping an eye and following the enemy whilst keeling your aircraft stable.

 

Im going to keep at it as i love the game.

[PureVertical]

Dogfighting is as much an art as it is a science. 

 

Tip #1 - get a joystick at least, no need for a HOTAS setup but a joystick is essential, you need the travel of the joystick to give fine adjustments. 

 

You will spend most of your time on the edge in a dogfight, you need the ability to make fine adjustments that a gamepad doesn't afford you.

 

Tip#2 - Read up on BFM, basic fighter manoeuvres. These are essential. A turning fight is a flowing mix of turns and climbs that meld into one another. 

 

Tip#3 - Practice, there is a reason a pilots chances of survival went up the more missions he flew. There is no substitute for experience.

 

Tip#4 - Dictate the fight on your terms. All to often the sim pilot jumps into an engagement excitedly. Do not do this, weigh up your options and the situation. If your a boom and zoomer, do NOT go in looking for a turning fight.

 

Tip#5 - Related to 4, Know your aircraft. 

 

But above all Energy management is essential. You trade altitude for speed and vice versa. Know the corner velocity of your aircraft.

 

I would love to discuss it more, but im in work  , but these words and phrases should help you.

Edited July 25, 2014 by PureVertical

[VPK_CARTOON]

Marshall, what time zone you are in ?

[PrivateJoker]

hi marshall,

As you already mentioned :"I use an xbox pad as i can use the right analogue for the pilots head tracking. Another thing i struggle with in battle."

 

I don´t know how much you are willing to invest in this. But, just by playing with a Joystick (Preferably a HOTAS) and a Head-Tracking-System (at least a Joystick with cooliehat to watch), maneuvers will become 10 times easier for you. Also it is a lot more fun.

 

And to your "Dogfighting"-issue:

I'am not the best pilot but i can give you these suggestions:

At first, it depends on the plane you are flying. For example, there are energie-fighter, like the 109 and planes who can easily out-turn a 109. The key is to know about the planes abillities.

I "think" your problem is that you are joining the next dogfight you see, even if you have less energy than our opponent, and trying to perform horizontal maneuvers.

In general, try too gain a lot of energy by climbing and don't attack the first enemy u see. You have to get an overview , wether there are enemies at the same altitude as you are. When you decide to attack a fighter try to make vertical maneuvers to safe energy and don't get yourself into a turnfight with an enemy who has less energy.

 

I hope I could help a little bit

[Densetsu]

I also have very little experience in this area, thanks for the tips. I just bought my first ever joystick, the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. Nothing special as I can't afford anything else right now. Maybe all of the less experienced players should fly some missions together. That would be pretty fun.

[marshall]

Thanks for your help. I have a joystick but struggle using a mouse at the same time to head track. I deffinatley push the aircraft beyond it limits.

 

I often find myself at low altitude. I try gaining some height and using this to drop and gain speed, hopefully attack then climb back up and repeat.

 

I know its very early days and getting any goods going to tack some practice.

[PureVertical]

I also have very little experience in this area, thanks for the tips. I just bought my first ever joystick, the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. Nothing special as I can't afford anything else right now. Maybe all of the less experienced players should fly some missions together. That would be pretty fun.

 This has happened before on Newbie servers, what I have seen happen in the past is the more experienced players join these beginner servers and clean the place out. 

 

 

 

I know its very early days and getting any goods going to tack some practice.

 

 

I'm not sure what backround or genre you "come from", FPS games, strategy or whatever, but be under no illusion this is not going to take "some practice" This can take months and years to be up at the highest standard. Flight sim combat is a very difficult place to succeed. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by PureVertical

[marshall]

Im in the Uk.

 

I have a 3D pro logitech stick. But the control/button on the top is poor for controlling my pilots view. I would be very interested in a recommendation on a better stick. Ideally one where i can easily control my head tracking.

 

Thats why i switched to a xbox contoller.

[Densetsu]

TrackIR is pretty good, but it's not exactly cheap.

[PrivateJoker]

I use the Thrustmaster HOTAS X. It's not the best Joystik but cheap and perfectly good for me. For Headtracking I bought Track IR 4 and since i used it, i will never ever fly without it.

[=38=Tatarenko]

The best way to start is to get altitude (a lot!) then look around for an enemy who is on the six of one of yours. He won't be looking behind him much. Dive on him and shoot and WHETHER OR NOT YOU KILL HIM pull up to altitude again and wait and have a good look around. Do as the Russians did with their new pilots and say over your side's territory until you have a couple of kills. You will have leant a lot by then.

 

If you try and "dogfight" as a new pilot you are easy meat.

[=FI=Rambo]

I use my mouse to look around marshall

[Feathered_IV]

Rather than use the hat switch on the joystick, try using the mouse in hour left hand to look around. With a short practice it becomes second nature and feels very fluid. Mapping the throttle to the mousewheel is very convenient too, as you won't need to take your eye off the screen to use it.

[marshall]

I use my mouse to look around marshall

Yea ive tried this but im using my natural right hand on the joystick and un-natural left on the mouse. It was difficult.

 

Ive got to say the xbox pad is good for having one stick for flight and one for your view point.

Rather than use the hat switch on the joystick, try using the mouse in hour left hand to look around. With a short practice it becomes second nature and feels very fluid. Mapping the throttle to the mousewheel is very convenient too, as you won't need to take your eye off the screen to use it.

I might give the mouse another go then. I guess with a little patience i could manage. I had Track IR but sold it when i wasnt playing this and ROF much.

[Gambit21]

The best way to start is to get altitude (a lot!) then look around for an enemy who is on the six of one of yours. He won't be looking behind him much. Dive on him and shoot and WHETHER OR NOT YOU KILL HIM pull up to altitude again and wait and have a good look around. Do as the Russians did with their new pilots and say over your side's territory until you have a couple of kills. You will have leant a lot by then.

 

If you try and "dogfight" as a new pilot you are easy meat.

This

 

Be higher than everyone else.

Then when you dive down, you're faster than everyone else.

 

That's how Hartmann did it.

Practice the same thing at first, for even later when you're comfortable turning and burning, energy tactics will come into play.

[Krause]

About Headtracking... What about using a PS Eye http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-Eye-3/dp/B000VTQ3LU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406061888&sr=8-1&keywords=pseye configured with a software like facetracknoir.sourceforge.net/ or www.free-track.net/english/ to get the trick?

 

Cheaper than buy an TrackIR if you cannot afford one. There's plenty of video tutorials in youtube. But might be nice to have some first hand opinion here about this.

 

ps: I already own the TrackIR I'm just trying to help those who can't afford to buy one giving some useful alternatives.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Krause

[neuwildberry]

The most important 'skill' that you need in a dogfight is patience. Lack of patience kills more pilots than rough flying skills, bad gunnery or lacking knowledge of basic or advanced manoeuvres. Stay high, pick the weakest target you can find, swoop in, take some shots and climb out - repeat. It gets boring after a bit, but staying with this basic pattern will keep you out of harms way, although usually with few, if any, kills.

 

If you have done this for a while, you've probably learned a lot about how your airplane handels, which speeds you shouldnt exceed in a dive, how close to get for a decent killshot and how much to lead your aim. By watching your enemies evade your, you'll also learn how to defeat fast swooping attacks against you - just copy whatever pilots did to successfully evade you. Slowly youll build up your situational awareness, and this whole air combat thing will start to make sense.

 

The whole dogfighting thing is fun, but even if you managed to shoot that other bastard down, by the end of it you will be low, slow and an easy target for whoever uses the basic pattern outlined in the beginning of this post :D

 

As for your questions:

 

Gennerally yes, full power, but a bunch of exceptions apply, like when diving or lining up a shot on a much slower enemy, fighting an enemy that wants you to overshoot etc.

The Yak1 is very forgiving to fly, definitely recommended.

As for manoeuvres, look up high and low YoYos, Split S, Flat and Rolling Scissors. Difference between lag and lead pursuit ... uh, theres more, but that should get you started. Just check youtube, theres a bunch of tutorials for each of these.

[marshall]

The most important 'skill' that you need in a dogfight is patience. Lack of patience kills more pilots than rough flying skills, bad gunnery or lacking knowledge of basic or advanced manoeuvres. Stay high, pick the weakest target you can find, swoop in, take some shots and climb out - repeat. It gets boring after a bit, but staying with this basic pattern will keep you out of harms way, although usually with few, if any, kills.

 

If you have done this for a while, you've probably learned a lot about how your airplane handels, which speeds you shouldnt exceed in a dive, how close to get for a decent killshot and how much to lead your aim. By watching your enemies evade your, you'll also learn how to defeat fast swooping attacks against you - just copy whatever pilots did to successfully evade you. Slowly youll build up your situational awareness, and this whole air combat thing will start to make sense.

 

The whole dogfighting thing is fun, but even if you managed to shoot that other bastard down, by the end of it you will be low, slow and an easy target for whoever uses the basic pattern outlined in the beginning of this post :D

 

As for your questions:

 

Gennerally yes, full power, but a bunch of exceptions apply, like when diving or lining up a shot on a much slower enemy, fighting an enemy that wants you to overshoot etc.

The Yak1 is very forgiving to fly, definitely recommended.

As for manoeuvres, look up high and low YoYos, Split S, Flat and Rolling Scissors. Difference between lag and lead pursuit ... uh, theres more, but that should get you started. Just check youtube, theres a bunch of tutorials for each of these.

Brilliant, thanks guys. Must admit i got a little put off when i was struggling, but ill try and put some of these techniques into practice.

[=38=Tatarenko]

Only thing to watch in a Yak-1 is the max dive speed. Often if you bounce a Messer he'll try to sucker you into a diving chase. His metal elevators etc hold together much better than your wooden ones that are prone to ballooning then failing at speed. Result: you go straight down, he pulls up and laughs.

[Gambit21]

The most important 'skill' that you need in a dogfight is patience.

Patience helps.

The most important things are situational awareness and the ability to manage your energy.

Airplanes do not out-turn one another, they 'out-conserve energy' one another. THAT is the most important thing to know.

Patience is the bonus - and even arguable of equal importance since without patience you make mistakes - mistakes

are always what get's you killed.

 

In fact every time you get shot down, figure out what mistake you made that allowed it.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Gambit21

[neuwildberry]

Patience helps.

The most important things are situational awareness and the ability to manage your energy.

Airplanes do not out-turn one another, they 'out-conserve energy' one another. THAT is the most important thing to know.

Patience is the bonus - and even arguable of equal importance since without patience you make mistakes - mistakes

are always what get's you killed.

 

In fact every time you get shot down, figure out what mistake you made that allowed it.

 

Yep, you are absolutely correct. The only reason i picked patience was that situational awareness only comes with training and energy management is basically a book by itself if you want to get into the details - staying high, observing the battlefield and picking a weak target without getting baited into sustained turns or dives are easy guidelines to help to make a new players first hours more enjoyable. Theres a lot of things to teach and explain, and several strategies as to where to start. Most are valid, i just picked one

[Gambit21]

Yep, you are absolutely correct. The only reason i picked patience was that situational awareness only comes with training and energy management is basically a book by itself if you want to get into the details - staying high, observing the battlefield and picking a weak target without getting baited into sustained turns or dives are easy guidelines to help to make a new players first hours more enjoyable. Theres a lot of things to teach and explain, and several strategies as to where to start. Most are valid, i just picked one

I hear ya - a lot to impart to someone in the written word, and so many things to keep in mind at once for someone new to this.

I think patience was a great thing to point out, for without it you'll surely die.

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

Im a total noob when it comes to flight sims. Ive enjoyed ROF and im loving BOS. After some generaly basic flight practice ive started Dog fighting....and im absolutley useless lol.

 

I seem to get in the same situations everytime. Normally spinning out or the aircraft struggling to make the turns/manovers i want it to.

 

The bulk of the time we are just trying to out turn each other, constantly crossing by one another, which leads me into these stalled turns where the aircraft pulls out of a over ambitious manover.

 

Just a few basic tips would be great.

Do i keep full power on whilst fighting? Is there a certain aircraft i can use thats easier for a novice? Any basic manovers to get me in a better attacking position.

 

I use an xbox pad as i can use the right analogue for the pilots head tracking. Another thing i struggle with in battle. Keeping an eye and following the enemy whilst keeling your aircraft stable.

 

Im going to keep at it as i love the game.

If your flying a Me109 climb to a couple thousand meters then dive on the enemy hit them and climb away at about 15 to 20 degrees of pitch to keep your speed up circle and repeat. Don't try to turn with a Russian fighter unless you have a death wish if you get in a low slow turning fight in a 109 your toast.

Speed is life!

[marshall]

So ive been flying the Yak as it seems one of the easier to handle for me. Im trying to gain height then come down and climb again. But i always run out of steam and start losing speed and leveling out around 1000m. And i cant get much higher than 1000m. And before i know it im to low and vunrable to the enemy. By the way im only Dogfighting against 1 other 109.

 

Do i have to be really gentle with the pitch/ climbing angle to increase height?? I imagined these old girls would climb stronger. 

 

I can see the 109 pulling up for some time then coming down after me. Is my Yak more of a turner than a climber??

 

Even though its still a bit frustrating struggling like this, I know when things start to come together im going to love this game even more.

Edited July 27, 2014 by marshall

[Gambit21]

The Yak holds it's own against a turning 109 very well (even a human flown 109) as long as you're not heavy-handed on the stick

and manage your energy. It's all about energy management. 

 

You can't just point the nose at the sky to climb, use speed and a gentle angle of attack  -airspeed is key.

You also shouldn't be diving to the deck necessarily to attack - pick your moments and don't give up altitude lightly if you're online.

If your offline you can suck a single 109 to the deck and eat him - you can do that online too so long as none of his buddies are around.

[marshall]

So today i went out and bought a new joystick, ditched the xbox pad. Using the joystick in my left hand and using the mouse in my right to view/track. After many many failed attempts it finally clicked (for a beginner anyway) and I got a couple of kills. One on one dogfight, me in a Lagg and t'other bloke tint 109. Absolutley bloody loved it. Massive grin ont face like. (Yorkshire dialect). Had a couple of moments with smoke plumming from his engine right in front of me, couldnt see anything...then followed him really close then nailed the last one home! Awesome.

 

I'm using the mouse wheel as suggested to control throttle and every things where I want it. I'm using slow gradual banking turns whilst gaining altitude and not jumping in as soon as I see the enemy. Waiting till i see a reasonable opportunity to strike. Thanks for the help and guidance chaps. Really chuffed. And its only bloody Novice enemy!!!! lol

[Leaf]

So today i went out and bought a new joystick, ditched the xbox pad. Using the joystick in my left hand and using the mouse in my right to view/track. After many many failed attempts it finally clicked (for a beginner anyway) and I got a couple of kills. One on one dogfight, me in a Lagg and t'other bloke tint 109. Absolutley bloody loved it. Massive grin ont face like. (Yorkshire dialect). Had a couple of moments with smoke plumming from his engine right in front of me, couldnt see anything...then followed him really close then nailed the last one home! Awesome.

 

I'm using the mouse wheel as suggested to control throttle and every things where I want it. I'm using slow gradual banking turns whilst gaining altitude and not jumping in as soon as I see the enemy. Waiting till i see a reasonable opportunity to strike. Thanks for the help and guidance chaps. Really chuffed. And its only bloody Novice enemy!!!! lol

 

Awesome, keep up the practise! Personally I wouldn't have mapped out throttle and head control to the mouse, but whatever works for you.

[=38=Tatarenko]

So today i went out and bought a new joystick, ditched the xbox pad. Using the joystick in my left hand and using the mouse in my right to view/track. After many many failed attempts it finally clicked (for a beginner anyway) and I got a couple of kills. One on one dogfight, me in a Lagg and t'other bloke tint 109. Absolutley bloody loved it. Massive grin ont face like. (Yorkshire dialect). Had a couple of moments with smoke plumming from his engine right in front of me, couldnt see anything...then followed him really close then nailed the last one home! Awesome.

 

 

And so we gain another addict

 

Well done!

[Gambit21]

So today i went out and bought a new joystick, ditched the xbox pad. Using the joystick in my left hand and using the mouse in my right to view/track. After many many failed attempts it finally clicked (for a beginner anyway) and I got a couple of kills. One on one dogfight, me in a Lagg and t'other bloke tint 109. Absolutley bloody loved it. Massive grin ont face like. (Yorkshire dialect). Had a couple of moments with smoke plumming from his engine right in front of me, couldnt see anything...then followed him really close then nailed the last one home! Awesome.

 

I'm using the mouse wheel as suggested to control throttle and every things where I want it. I'm using slow gradual banking turns whilst gaining altitude and not jumping in as soon as I see the enemy. Waiting till i see a reasonable opportunity to strike. Thanks for the help and guidance chaps. Really chuffed. And its only bloody Novice enemy!!!! lol

Get at TrackIR and ditch the mouse.

Personally I'd rather use the hat switch to look around than my other hand with the mouse, and did successfully for many years.

It was only when I purchases RoF and directions change happened too quickly that I finally got TrackIR. Now I'd hate to go back.

[Dutch]

A mate of mine whom I have known for years and is a keyboard and mouse fanatic , tried out my Hotas and Track IR set up. He couldn't work it out at all on numerous attempts. He tried to control the 'plane with his head and his view with the stick, the hatswitch, you name it. He just couldn't get the hang of any of it.

 

So take no notice of the so-called 'experts'. But get yourself a joystick and a TrackIR. :D

[Gambit21]

That's funny.

I could go back to using the hat switch if I had to - I did just fine with it online and off for a long time.

Didn't work for me in RoF though - those crates just whip around too quickly.

 

I need my left hand for modulating the throttle, dropping flaps, etc.

Can't tie it up with the mouse.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Gambit21

[marshall]

Personally the hat switch isnt responsive enough. And everything on the one hand would mess me up. Joystick left hand mouse right means i cant use throttle control on the joystick without crossing hands, so mouse wheel works great. Will get track ir eventually.

 

Does the A.I get much harder as you move up?

[=38=Tatarenko]

The mouse is much better than the hat switch. I have used it for over 12 years no problems. Got TrackIR 2x but always ditched it.

 

As for the AI, the main improvement is that they are better at gunning you head on from further. So I wouldn't head to head with a veteran unless you're in a 190.

[Densetsu]

First stick came threw the post. Flying is so much easier now. I love flight simulators. Haven't played a flight sim properly for years. BoS has been an amazing purchase, well worth it. Tempted to buy RoF after playing the demo for ages.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Hal