How severe is the AI cheating?

[Eisenfaustus]

Last time I fired up a quick mission I flew a Bf 109 E-4 against Hurricanes to try to get back into CLOD. We flew past each other at co altitude and roughly at co speed. Knowing I had a climbing advantage I wanted to gain some altitude initiated a steep climb and then climbed steadily at roughly 250 km/h. When I checked 6 the Hurri was not to far behind me and comfortable staying with me - after having had to burn a lot of energy in an 180 turn. The hurricane shouldn’t be able to keep up. 
 

In other situations the AI enemies seem to behave weird in ways that seem hard to define. Am I doing something wrong or is the AI cheating that hard?

[Josp]

Hi Eisenfaustus,

 

AI is able to use a potential of each aircraft to its maximum. Maybe even more than at 100%.

 

AI always flies with a perfectly trimmed aircraft and does not do mistakes that most of us human pilots do.

 

AI doesn't have some limitations that players have. For example, undamaged AI controlled aircraft do not suffer from engine overheating. According to Buzzsaw, the reason for that is to decrease a processor load. I guess it means AI can fly undamaged aircraft in the emergency power/boost cut out mode for unlimited time. And based on my observations, AI does that often. I also have a problem to fly away or outclimb AI despite my plane should be faster and more powerful.

 

It's possible to call it "cheating".

 

I agree it would be better if AI had the same restrinctions and limitations like players. And if AI, at least the lower levels like novice and average, would not be so perfect pilots. I'm afraid it's not easy to do though.

 

Josef

  

[56RAF_Stickz]

3 hours ago, Josp said:

For example, undamaged AI controlled aircraft do not suffer from engine overheating. According to Buzzsaw, the reason for that is to decrease a processor load. I guess it means AI can fly undamaged aircraft in the emergency power/boost cut out mode for unlimited time.

hi Josp, not entirely sure that is correct. Many missions I have built for ai when taking off and climbing out, if going above particular speeds you see the ai radiators open whilst others of same type set to lower speed do not. And in a lot of these cases I suddenly find the lead pair will drop out of formation and rtb, and 30secs or so later a second pair do the same. It seems to go via time it has taken for each pair to take off, so they are overheating or damaging engines in some way after a similar amount of flying time. This is using higher than the recommended climb/cruise speeds that buzzsaw and others that are mentioned in the manual. So it certainly seems to me that they can get damaged or overheat. 

[Josp]

17 hours ago, 56RAF_Stickz said:

hi Josp, not entirely sure that is correct. Many missions I have built for ai when taking off and climbing out, if going above particular speeds you see the ai radiators open whilst others of same type set to lower speed do not. And in a lot of these cases I suddenly find the lead pair will drop out of formation and rtb, and 30secs or so later a second pair do the same. It seems to go via time it has taken for each pair to take off, so they are overheating or damaging engines in some way after a similar amount of flying time. This is using higher than the recommended climb/cruise speeds that buzzsaw and others that are mentioned in the manual. So it certainly seems to me that they can get damaged or overheat. 

 

Hi 56RAF_Stickz,

 

I'm not sure everything I wrote here is correct. It's a result of what I have read or heard, what I have observed myself, and what I have concluded from that all. I may be wrong in something.

 

That information about no overheating check for AI controlled aircraft comes from a discussion on ATAG forum (if I remember right) that was running some time ago. Several people were asking there if AI has the same flight model like players. Some of them thought the flight model for AI is simplified because AI can do things that are not possible for players. Buzzsaw said there the flight model is basically identical but there are some differences here. And he mentioned this check for engine overheating as one of these differences. He said the game doesn't monitor engine temperature in AI controlled aircraft. Only after the aircraft flown by AI gets damaged, the game starts checking for engine overheating in this aircraft.

 

This is how I remember what Buzzsaw explained there. It's possible I don't remember everything correctly, or I misinterpret something. AI definitely uses radiators. But that's not in conflict with what I said above. I can't fly with boost cut out for a long time, even with radiators fully open. Especially when airspeed is lower and cooling is less efficient, for example during a long climb. My impression is AI can do this. I experienced many times that AI in a Hurricane was able to climb with me when I was flying in a Bf 109. I'm not a good pilot but anyway, a Bf 109 should outclimb a Hurricane easily, even with such a bad pilot like me. When I'm flying in a Hurricane, I have no chance to keep up with a Bf 109. Neither during a climb, nor in a horizontal flight. AI has no problem with that in a significantly less powerful plane. I think that's what Eisenfaustus wanted to point out.

 

Josef

 

 

[56RAF_Stickz]

Hi Josp,

the only evidence I have to contradict you is assumptions of my own. Ive written missions where I set up 4 or 5 staffels of 109e3 and 4 that took off and tried to catch up with large number of stukas. So those furthest away needed to fly faster so it all grouped up prior to a target where spits and hurris would arrive. Those I set fastest kept dropping out of their staffel formations and rtbing on me in pairs I had no idea why but it continued until I reduced their speed, ultimately I had to rearrange it all. So my assumptions could equally be wrong. I just had to either reduce speed or rate of climb or the time they did it at the waypoints for until it hung together so I made a guess thats either engine blowing or over heating, I just did not have another explanation. There could be a completely different unrelated explanation or mechanism at work and that they are not blowing engines - they dont fall out of the sky, just go home slowly.

Butb I also remember a comment being made along the lines of what you say about simplifying things for reducing computer load.

As for climbing speeds of ai I'm not going to contradict any of that. Certainly flying a hurri, I could never outclimb any 109, a times it seems a ju88 lighly loaded can fly away from one. It maybe that they do not lose the energy in turns that piloted plane does. But ai 109E seems to need to keep close to the recommended TF speeds, whereas ai spits and hurris appear to be able to go bit above it. But the TF recommended settings are a "one size fits all".

I'm forever blowing spit and hurri engines if a 109 dont get me first.

[Josp]

Hi 56RAF_Stickz,

 

thank you for your interesting information.

 

And thank you for your last sentence. I'm not able to count how many engines in my planes I have damaged or destroyed completely. It makes me fell less stupid knowing I'm not alone. It's little bit better now. I have dared to fly also planes with no prop pitch and radiator automation where I have to be even more careful.

 

My experience is that Hurricanes and Spitfires are not so bad. It's possible to fly with a full throttle for a long time in a Hurricane or Spitfire when I handle radiators properly and keep sufficient airspeed. It's much easier (at least for me) to "cook" an engine in Bf 109s. I can't fly with a full throttle in a Bf 109 for some longer time.

 

I think that's one of the reasons why I prefer British planes.

 

Josef

[Bloyamind]

Hijacking this to talk about the well known issue of enemy dogfighters flying like fish (not the flying kind) and going all over the place whenever you get near them. I realize this is what it is right now, so even though it's perhaps by far my biggest gripe, it's ok. However, are there any tips/tactics you have in shooting these aircraft down? I'm playing theOden's dynamic campaign, which is awesome by the way, but now I'm in a part of the campaign where i'm constantly facing off bf109's. If they ever get on my six, which luckily hardly ever happens, one ore two shots is enough for me to go down burning, even if I flounder (ghehe) about... On the other hand, even with ammo on unlimited (which I wish I wouldn't have to do), it seems near impossible to get one of them down. Part of that is that i'm flying a Spitfire IA (for the campaign). A huge part is them pulling the weirdest moves last minute. Well, you know how they behave. Of course, when the fly off they're quicker than you as well. So again, not necessarily a complaint right now, but any way to make dogfighting them slightly more enjoyable is welcome! Regular bfm/deflection etc. doesn't seem to apply. 

[Oyster_KAI]

I can allow them to cheat of all kinds....
But don't have super fast side rolls, if they do...please lose speed on these exaggerated side rolls?

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

3 hours ago, Bloyamind said:

Hijacking this to talk about the well known issue of enemy dogfighters flying like fish (not the flying kind) and going all over the place whenever you get near them. I realize this is what it is right now, so even though it's perhaps by far my biggest gripe, it's ok. However, are there any tips/tactics you have in shooting these aircraft down? I'm playing theOden's dynamic campaign, which is awesome by the way, but now I'm in a part of the campaign where i'm constantly facing off bf109's. If they ever get on my six, which luckily hardly ever happens, one ore two shots is enough for me to go down burning, even if I flounder (ghehe) about... On the other hand, even with ammo on unlimited (which I wish I wouldn't have to do), it seems near impossible to get one of them down. Part of that is that i'm flying a Spitfire IA (for the campaign). A huge part is them pulling the weirdest moves last minute. Well, you know how they behave. Of course, when the fly off they're quicker than you as well. So again, not necessarily a complaint right now, but any way to make dogfighting them slightly more enjoyable is welcome! Regular bfm/deflection etc. doesn't seem to apply. 

I just go above them and wait for it to stop. It stops eventually, or they hit the ground… or if it goes for too long, I just go for another target (specially when you bounce them they won‘t do this in my experience; like when still flying in formation).

It‘s a waste of time trying to shoot them down when they move like that. Specially in the Spitfire or Hurricane armed only with the .303… at least with cannons if you manage to hit once it may do enough damage.

 

 

And as Oyster_KAI says, it‘s just too fast. I can‘t even move my stick that fast from one side to the other. I‘ll try mapping my ailerons to a 20 mm dial and see if I can achieve that lol.

Oh, and btw, one thing I‘ve noticed is that the rolling movement seems to be periodic. They go back and forth for the same amount of time, as if in a senoid movement. I have waited at the position they would come back to instead of trying to follow and put a cannon round right into them. There isn‘t too much time when they stay at the given position, but at the highest amplitude of their movement seems to be easier (they stay there a bit longer).

 

—> Results from the dial test for ailerons: roll rate won’t be any faster than moving the stick left and right like an Extra 300 acrobatics pilot. Watching the AI do it does not seem to show they do it any faster either. They are just unrealistically fit to be able to do it dozens of times without pausing. And fully coordinated too with rudder and elevator so they spin like a projectile.

Edited December 13, 2022 by 9./JG52_J-HAT

[Dagwoodyt]

Maybe just a price to be paid for having "hundreds" of AI flitting about doing who knows what.

[Rei-sen]

2 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Maybe just a price to be paid for having "hundreds" of AI flitting about doing who knows what.

Not at all! 1946 can have hundreds of AI aircraft and they are nowhere near that crazy UFO level the CLOD AI is.

 

This AI issue is killing the SP part of this sim.

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Arthur-A said:

Not at all! 1946 can have hundreds of AI aircraft and they are nowhere near that crazy UFO level the CLOD AI is.

 

This AI issue is killing the SP part of this sim.

Been 5 years since i've used 1946 so I am in no position to debate ?

In terms of Blitz I've looked at the recent VR video of Bf 110's decimating Spitfires and  then reviewed one of my saved missions. In that mission you can see that the Bf110 rear gun can fire in a 180 degree horizontal arc and up to 90 degrees upward. That bears no relationship to the physical limitations that would apply to a human gunner who would be required to plausibly use a gunsight to aim and be in position to actuate the gun trigger. The required physical contortions could not happen. So you can have a "hundreds" of AI in action, but there is a cost in that a lack of physiologic constraints on AI kills immersion in SP once one realizes that constraints are lacking.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[Rei-sen]

I'm pretty sure that fixing AI unrealistic flying issues won't affect the performance and it will still handle hundreds of AI aircraft.

 

IMO, fixing the AI should be the number one priority for the next release, unless this sim is considered as MP only of course. 

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

7 minutes ago, Arthur-A said:

(…) unless this sim is considered as MP only of course. 

hehe ?

[the_finkinator69]

I

24 minutes ago, Arthur-A said:

I'm pretty sure that fixing AI unrealistic flying issues won't affect the performance and it will still handle hundreds of AI aircraft.

 

IMO, fixing the AI should be the number one priority for the next release, unless this sim is considered as MP only of course. 

I dont think its a performance issue, but its a small team and I think their priority right now is VR. Tweaks may seem easy but could be buggy as hell, just not worth the risk or time rn IMO. 

[Rei-sen]

12 minutes ago, the_finkinator69 said:

just not worth the risk or time rn IMO

With the current state of AI, there's very little possibility to make it worse, lol

[Peachy9]

I agree on the dodgy 110 and Stuka rear gunners and on friendly AIs inability to achieve anything (unless set to veteran and Ace). I also agree on 110s ability to outclimb Spits and Hurris. It has been said before that mission design has a lot to do with how the AI behaves. So setting speed too high between waypoints, setting RTB after a patrol/attack waypoint, setting Skill to anything above Average (Veteran is like Ace in other Sims and also can lead to too accurate shooting and also funky manoeuvres) can have a detrimental impact on the SP experience. I have spent a fair amount of time editing some of the campaigns to dumb down the AI and add waypoints and the whole experience gets a lot better (no where near perfect).

 

I suggest playing around with some of the settings and having a go. I do prefer finishing a Campaign with maybe max  10 victories where in IL2 GB or in IL21946 I often finished with 20-30 Victories - seems more on a par with reality.

 

No way making excuses for the AI - it needs to be improved - I also suggest that some of the stock SP campaigns really need to be changed to reflect all of the above in terms of AI skill and behaviour between waypoints. 

 

[FTC_Karaya]

If you think Bf110 or Stuka gunners are terrifying you obviously havent gone up against Defiants and Sunderlands. Wellington gunners also used to be super deadly. Seems to not be so bad anymore since the Wellington was turned into a flyable.

Gunners in CloD have always been either really bad or really good, irrespective of side.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Karaya

[Peachy9]

6 minutes ago, Karaya said:

If you think Bf110 or Stuka gunners are terrifying you obviously havent gone up against Defiants and Sunderlands. Wellington gunners also used to be super deadly. Seems to not be so bad anymore since the Wellington was turned into a flyable.

Gunners in CloD have always been either really bad or really good, irrespective of side.

I have experienced Defiants but not Wellies or Sunderland’s so I hear ya

bombers can be managed by dragging gunnery skill down to novice or standard but you can’t do that with 110s as they are then unable to fly effectively as fighters. Assume same for defiants.

[Bloyamind]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:15 PM, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

I just go above them and wait for it to stop. It stops eventually, or they hit the ground… or if it goes for too long, I just go for another target (specially when you bounce them they won‘t do this in my experience; like when still flying in formation).

It‘s a waste of time trying to shoot them down when they move like that. Specially in the Spitfire or Hurricane armed only with the .303… at least with cannons if you manage to hit once it may do enough damage.

 

 

And as Oyster_KAI says, it‘s just too fast. I can‘t even move my stick that fast from one side to the other. I‘ll try mapping my ailerons to a 20 mm dial and see if I can achieve that lol.

Oh, and btw, one thing I‘ve noticed is that the rolling movement seems to be periodic. They go back and forth for the same amount of time, as if in a senoid movement. I have waited at the position they would come back to instead of trying to follow and put a cannon round right into them. There isn‘t too much time when they stay at the given position, but at the highest amplitude of their movement seems to be easier (they stay there a bit longer).

 

—> Results from the dial test for ailerons: roll rate won’t be any faster than moving the stick left and right like an Extra 300 acrobatics pilot. Watching the AI do it does not seem to show they do it any faster either. They are just unrealistically fit to be able to do it dozens of times without pausing. And fully coordinated too with rudder and elevator so they spin like a projectile.

Thanks for the tips :). I'll try this more specifically. Sometimes it's already kinda what I was doing, but without a masterplan and sometimes I still get red vision and go for the endless chase haha. Glad to hear it's not my lack of skill.
'm also in the camp for having improved AI as number one on the wish list as I'm generally a single player person (which you inherently seems more fitting in your first few hundred hours of playing sims). But AI... it's a specific discipline, different from visuals. It's probably a pretty gnarly challenge. So for now, it is what it is. Then again, it's a shame I've never really been able to pull off/practice bfm in any meaningful kinda way. Happy with the game, wishlist none-the-less. 

[Buzzsaw]

AI cannot exceed the performance of a human flown aircraft.

 

What they do not have to consider are engine factors like over-heating... instead they are restricted to a maximum climb rate.  (based on historical data for max climb at normal climb settings)  Same applies for top speed, etc.  So what this means is they cannot, unlike human flown aircraft, exceed their normal max climb rate for a short period of time to gain a temporary advantage.  (humans can used higher than recommended boost/rpm for a brief period to achieve a higher climb rate at the cost of significant heat buildup in the engine)

 

AI are subject to the same restrictions and aerodynamic factors as human flown aircraft in regards to structural integrity, compressibility, turn performance, etc.

[Rei-sen]

8 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

AI are subject to the same restrictions and aerodynamic factors as human flown aircraft in regards to structural integrity, compressibility, turn performance, etc.

Please explain this behavior then.

How is AI able to pull of this roll rate if it is subject to the same restrictions and aerodynamic factors?

[jollyjack]

Seems forever... just like the flies do on hot summer days.

We need a new CloD weapon only chase view mode.:

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

16 minutes ago, Arthur-A said:

Please explain this behavior then.

How is AI able to pull of this roll rate if it is subject to the same restrictions and aerodynamic factors?

 

Indeed, that is quite a bit faster than what we can achieve with the Kittyhawk.

[Rei-sen]

10 minutes ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

Indeed, that is quite a bit faster than what we can achieve with the Kittyhawk.

This is whith full aileron deflection, from my side. AI rolls way faster than me, which makes it obvious that it's not affected by any restrictions or aerodynamic factors whatsoever. 

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Just now, Arthur-A said:

This is whith full aileron deflection, from my side. AI rolls way faster than me, which makes it obvious that it's not affected by any restrictions or aerodynamic factors whatsoever. 

Yeah, I fired up the game and tested it in the Kittyhawk before posting too. Just holding the stick fully deflected to one side and watching in chase view. The difference between both roll rates is tremendous. It indeed is not just a matter of coordinating the spin perfectly. 

[Dagwoodyt]

Maybe the AI is doing all that rolling because it was found easier to implement than a persistent AI effort to get on your "six". It is a component of the "drone" behavior that has already been described.

Even if the AI could structurally survive the rolling behavior instanteously, airframe stresses should exact a cumulative toll. Separate from that is consideration of AI pilot physiology. If neither of these is modeled then there is no problem and nothing to fix. Also, if 180 degree horizontal and 90 degree vertical Bf110 rear gun firing arcs are considered "historic" then there is nothing to "fix" there either and not worth acknowleging. Carry on?

Edited December 15, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[Rei-sen]

I "like" how devs just choose to ignore this topic

[343KKT_Kintaro]

50 minutes ago, Arthur-A said:

I "like" how devs just choose to ignore this topic

 

 

They are experienced you know...

 

 

[the_finkinator69]

1 hour ago, Arthur-A said:

I "like" how devs just choose to ignore this topic

They’re literally doing an entire VR and visual update right now. They don’t have infinite resources to fix every problem you find on your schedule. Its not even their source code. Take it easy. 

[Knightmare]

18 hours ago, Arthur-A said:

I "like" how devs just choose to ignore this topic

I "like" how some members of this community are so spectacularly entitled. 

[Rei-sen]

Yeah, just wanting a functioning AI. Totally entitled.
Seriously, just an acknowledgement from the devs will do, something like "yes, we're aware of this issue and will address it after we finish our VR and TrueSky upgrades". Instead, there's "AI are subject to the same restrictions and aerodynamic factors as human flown aircraft in regards to structural integrity, compressibility, turn performance, etc." Which tells that devs either have no clue this issue exists or they just don't care.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Arthur-A

[the_finkinator69]

3 hours ago, Arthur-A said:

Yeah, just wanting a functioning AI. Totally entitled.
Seriously, just an acknowledgement from the devs will do, something like "yes, we're aware of this issue and will address it after we finish our VR and TrueSky upgrades". Instead, there's "AI are subject to the same restrictions and aerodynamic factors as human flown aircraft in regards to structural integrity, compressibility, turn performance, etc." Which tells that devs either have no clue this issue exists or they just don't care.

‘The game should be better, with no issues’ is not the revelation you think it is. 

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, the_finkinator69 said:

‘The game should be better, with no issues’ is not the revelation you think it is. 

Game stats seem consistent with this assessment.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[Barnacles]

On 12/13/2022 at 4:40 PM, Arthur-A said:

Not at all! 1946 can have hundreds of AI aircraft and they are nowhere near that crazy UFO level the CLOD AI is.

 

This AI issue is killing the SP part of this sim.

Totally agree. I try to get into SP in CloD and the rolling of the AI puts me off. Not because I want an 'I win' button, but because it reminds me that the AI are not flying by the same rules. 

[Missionbug]

Guys, they are not interested in this, they do not care about us SP flyers.

 

The behaviour of the AI has been mentioned thousands of times and on the few times the team responds they tell us all is okay!

 

It makes me dizzy trying to manouver with Tie Fighter AI, it wiggles from side to side at alrming speed that defies physics, I gave up trying and the sim lies dormant on the hard drive, why I bought it I'll never know.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

9 minutes ago, Missionbug said:

Guys, they are not interested in this, they do not care about us SP flyers.

How this is possible, the most players are sp , they pay and revenue matters most.

[DBS]

Personally have never experienced the roll issues reported by some of you. Is it just the kittyhawk that does it?

[No.54_Reddog]

No, it's not just the kittyhawk. It's all to do with the advanced flying settings used. if the mission maker has dumbed down from high AI skill, or even better has set the individual advanced options, then you likely won't see it. (but you won't see much I as in intelligence either...)

 

The AI desperately needs an overhaul, not just for SP but for MP as well. Back in the day SoW used AI extensively (although not as much as I hear TWC are but then we had more players in the community back then) but the same issues seem to remain, namely;
- The "I've switched off my brain" drone behaviour

- The "I only care about the first player I see, I won't worry that there are currently 11 other AI chasing him, I want to shoot him too dammit!"
- The "I won't throw up my lunch regardless of how much I barrel roll"
- The "I couldn't hit a barn from the inside" shooting or "I'll take his left eyebrow off with this one"

[OBT-Eazy]

5 minutes ago, No.54_Reddog said:

- The "I've switched off my brain" drone behaviour

- The "I only care about the first player I see, I won't worry that there are currently 11 other AI chasing him, I want to shoot him too dammit!"
- The "I won't throw up my lunch regardless of how much I barrel roll"
- The "I couldn't hit a barn from the inside" shooting or "I'll take his left eyebrow off with this one"

I've come across quite a few human players behaving like this ... and me too sometimes. ?