Cant Wait for the Weekend-Sort OF

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Hi guys and gals I thought I would start sumthing about what everyone thinks about the 190 and its impact into "Early Access" Spesificaly. I like these kinda topics as they are quite intertaining to read but I was very suprised how mature eveyone has been and sumthing like this does not exist yet so I said nuts lets do it.

 

I think that one the one hand I love this A/C and cant wait to fly it, I wonder if it is really going to be the beast most people think (kinda like the La-5). If it is a beast I dont think Im gona be able to survie that long in EA as I always find myself flying VVS as most people seem to favour the axis.

 

Just chucking my 2 cents out there would be cool to here from yal

 

 

[FuriousMeow]

It will more than likely prove the necessity of the auto-balancer during the Early Access period. Between the 109s and the soon-to-be in-game Butcher Bird, the VVS side would be quite scarce as most gravitate to the easiest planes to get kills and stay alive in.

[=38=Tatarenko]

Well I think it'll be a touch tricky for us IL-2 pilots. The Messers murder us with one 20mm. Imagine 4.

[=AVG=Zombie]

Im not sure the 190 will be as beast mode as everyone thinks.... if you get caught in a zoom and boom then yes your dead, things has guns for sure, i can imagine a twitchy rudder with a fast roll rate will not be accurate and down low it will be lunch meat no doubt.... my 2 cents....

[Sunde]

The 190 was famous for its massive firepower and high speed. Its got fair climp rate and its actually more manouverable than the 109 At high speeds. Its heavy tho, getting caught on low energy in the 190 is probably a death sentence. No doubt that life for the VVS will be as hard if not harder than before, with this bird comming into play. Unless they have messed somthing up real bad with the FM. cant know for sure. TBH Most frontline german fighters outmatch the soviets in this period. That is how it was, just surprices me that they would make a flightsim from this period. Seems unfair for the VVS.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

It will more than likely prove the necessity of the auto-balancer during the Early Access period. Between the 109s and the soon-to-be in-game Butcher Bird, the VVS side would be quite scarce as most gravitate to the easiest planes to get kills and stay alive in.

 

Disagree entirely, unless what you're attempting to do is compare the Sturmovik community (or this iteration of it...) to that that exists in other flight... games... There are VVS pilots who will only fly those birds and there are Luftwaffe pilots who will only fly the German birds - I believe that is more prevalent.

 

Now, if you do turn out to be correct it would really go to show how adamant a community can be about historical accuracy... that is... until the Fw190A-3 comes out and that period-correct accuracy no longer suits them.

 

Otherwise, to remain on topic, given the advanced likelihood it will have a potato-esque FM (in line with the other Luftwaffe aircraft), I doubt much will change.

[Brano]

If it was such an butcher bird I wonder why majority of them served as jabos in SG's on eastern front.Again,much ado about nothing with luftwaffle fanboys.If it should live up to its "'urban legend"' then VVS would be wiped out in early 1943 completly.

[FuriousMeow]

Disagree entirely, unless what you're attempting to do is compare the Sturmovik community (or this iteration of it...) to that that exists in other flight... games... There are VVS pilots who will only fly those birds and there are Luftwaffe pilots who will only fly the German birds - I believe that is more prevalent.

 

Now, if you do turn out to be correct it would really go to show how adamant a community can be about historical accuracy... that is... until the Fw190A-3 comes out and that period-correct accuracy no longer suits them.

 

Otherwise, to remain on topic, given the advanced likelihood it will have a potato-esque FM (in line with the other Luftwaffe aircraft), I doubt much will change.

 

Disagree all you want. The LW consistently outnumbers the VVS online until auto-balance starts correcting it. There are more who will go for the easier planes to win with than the opposite.

 

The 190 will be no amazing uber easy plane, it will be used to pick off fighters previously engaged in combat with 109s. Just re-iterating how you think the 109's FM is bad doesn't make it bad. The 109 handily outperforms all VVS aircraft when used properly - aka the way it should be used.

Edited July 24, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

If it was such an butcher bird I wonder why majority of them served as jabos in SG's on eastern front.Again,much ado about nothing with luftwaffle fanboys.If it should live up to its "'urban legend"' then VVS would be wiped out in early 1943 completly.

 

And you don't wonder why High Command decided to use the majority of 262's produced for Jabo operations? Because that isn't relevant.

 

And here we go with the "German fanboy" garbage. Are you a Stalinwooder, than?

[Sunde]

If it was such an butcher bird I wonder why majority of them served as jabos in SG's on eastern front.Again,much ado about nothing with luftwaffle fanboys.If it should live up to its "'urban legend"' then VVS would be wiped out in early 1943 completly.

Then again, i have read plenty of times on this forum VVS fanboys write - The reason that vvs planes fly like they do in game is because if they flew like they would in real life all german planes would get destroyed - Have anyone looked at staticstics of this period? DO you even realise how many VVS planes got downed by german machines? Im not saying that VVS planes are bad. NOT at all, if they were the war would have gone differently. Thank god it didnt! But lets be honest, germany was ahead in arial tech during this period. Not by much, the better pilot still won, mostly, but people going that the 109s are better than Yak 1's NOT FAIR etc. are correct, IT was the better plane during that period. It was not F-22 vs MIG-21 better. But still it had more advantages. Not sure where im going anymore  with this talk, if anyone understood what i am trying to say, bless you! have fun     

[5th-GIAP_Sytov]

 

I think everyone should just relax and appreciate the fact that the FW-190 will be made available relatively soon to fly and have fun with .......online. My view is this. Any aircraft, be it virtually, if flown properly as well as in line to its historical specs will be a threat regardless of what aircraft it encounters or better yet.....the actual pilot themselves.

[Brano]

And you don't wonder why High Command decided to use the majority of 262's produced for Jabo operations? Because that isn't relevant.

 

And here we go with the "German fanboy" garbage. Are you a Stalinwooder, than?

Well,I don't get a hard wood when looking at wurger,that's for sure.

[=38=Tatarenko]

Disagree all you want. The LW consistently outnumbers the VVS online until auto-balance starts correcting it.

 

 

I find it difficult to find an open slot with the Russians most times I fly. Are you on the US server? On the EU server it is full of Russian pilots.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Then again, i have read plenty of times on this forum VVS fanboys write - The reason that vvs planes fly like they do in game is because if they flew like they would in real life all german planes would get destroyed - Have anyone looked at staticstics of this period? DO you even realise how many VVS planes got downed by german machines? Im not saying that VVS planes are bad. NOT at all, if they were the war would have gone differently. Thank god it didnt! But lets be honest, germany was ahead in arial tech during this period. Not by much, the better pilot still won, mostly, but people going that the 109s are better than Yak 1's NOT FAIR etc. are correct, IT was the better plane during that period. It was not F-22 vs MIG-21 better. But still it had more advantages. Not sure where im going anymore  with this talk, if anyone understood what i am trying to say, bless you! have fun     

 

The score of the top 50 Luftwaffe Experten compared to the top 50 VVS pilots should be enough to quantify that. Especially considering that throughout a majority of the documented war, the Luftwaffe was horribly outnumbered...

 

Top scoring VVS pilot had 60-something victories... That's less than half of the top 50 German pilots.

 

I guess numeric statistics makes us all "fan boys."

 

Statistical evidence and historical documentation would state that not only were the Luftwaffe pilots better trained, they flew less numerous, but technologically superior aircraft.

Edited July 24, 2014 by FalkeEins

[Brano]

Hmm...not much to respond to.No,I never read anything about WW2 and I live in a cave.And VSS is some secret branch of VVS,I guess....

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Hmm...not much to respond to.No,I never read anything about WW2 and I live in a cave.And VSS is some secret branch of VVS,I guess....

 

I don't speak Russian and I certainly don't care about their air forces.

 

My apologies..?

Edited July 24, 2014 by FalkeEins

[SYN_Haashashin]

You guys should calm down. Its getting personal and that wont be allowed.

[Valok]

It does have the guns to instagib anything in a single pass, if it gets caught with low energy or in the ground however it is pretty much game over.

 

Don't think anything will change really. (IL-2 pilots however better double watch their backs)

[Brano]

Had too much beers in my caveman homeland,time to go to bed.G'night to you all and I am really looking forward for tomorrow...(ehm here in my cave already todays) wurger release and subsequent tons of threads about how wrong it is made and does not live up to its urban legend.

[dburne]

I am continuing to wait for some SP content...

[siipperi]

Fight fight fight. What vvs means? Soviets?

[Praetor]

The way people fly in this game, the 190 will be toast.  It couldn't turn with frontline fighters, it was a high speed energy fighter.  You rarely see fights above 10k here, so the 190 ace is going to be rare.  Not a lot of intelligent pilots online, it seems.

[Chuck_Owl]

 

It will more than likely prove the necessity of the auto-balancer during the Early Access period. Between the 109s and the soon-to-be in-game Butcher Bird, the VVS side would be quite scarce as most gravitate to the easiest planes to get kills and stay alive in.

 

 

Not really... As long as virtual squadron members will not be allowed to fly together (because, you know... auto-balance), you will keep seeing this "better plane vs lesser plane" tiresome tirade. I'm sure you've flown many, many hours in 46 and/or CloD... and I am pretty sure that you're aware that it's always about the pilot, not the machine.

 

The score of the top 50 Luftwaffe Experten compared to the top 50 VVS pilots should be enough to quantify that. Especially considering that throughout a majority of the documented war, the Luftwaffe was horribly outnumbered...

 

Top scoring VVS pilot had 60-something victories... That's less than half of the top 50 German pilots.

 

I guess numeric statistics makes us all "fan boys."

 

Statistical evidence and historical documentation would state that not only were the Luftwaffe pilots better trained, they flew less numerous, but technologically superior aircraft.

 

Funny thing is that before the invasion of the Soviet Union, German pilots had the Spanish Civil War, the invasion of Poland, the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain under their belt. Thousands of combat hours. Compare that to the short training russian pilots had, and you can kind of figure out why so many Russian pilots got shot down in the early stages of Barbarossa. Russians lost hundreds of planes before they even took off the ground. However, if you look at the later stages of the Great Patriotic War, you can see that most russian pilots adapted their tactics and were just as battle-hardened as the Jerry ones. Same for the Battle of Britain. The early stages of the Battle of France showed that the RAF had rather poor and inadequate tactics. However, the Battle of Britain showed that the Tommies could fight the Huns on equal terms and prevail, even with "lesser" machines.

Honestly, the FW-190 does not scare me at all. A good pilot in a lesser machine can easily outfly an average one in a superior machine. I have seen Hurricane pilots give 109 pilots a pretty good run for their money. Proper wingmanship can beat any machine. What... the 190 has more guns? The Yak-1's cannon rips through wings all the same. Individually, I am not that great of a pilot. But once we get a couple smart team-oriented individuals flying together... we can accomplish literally anything.

In the end, Blue tears are always delightful.

Edited July 24, 2014 by 71st_AH_Chuck

[Gambit21]

The way people fly in this game, the 190 will be toast.  It couldn't turn with frontline fighters, it was a high speed energy fighter.  You rarely see fights above 10k here, so the 190 ace is going to be rare.  Not a lot of intelligent pilots online, it seems.

This

 

The last thing I'll sweating over when flying the Yak online is the 190. I expect to kill plenty of them, for theory aside, in actual practice

most pilots lack the discipline to fly it properly. At the same time, if flying it (which won't happen much online until the VVS get's some better AC) I expect

to do well in it. I'm patient. I'll fly around for an hour waiting for my moment.

 

When I get killed by one, it will be the one I didn't see.

[FuriousMeow]

I find it difficult to find an open slot with the Russians most times I fly. Are you on the US server? On the EU server it is full of Russian pilots.

 

I was mostly on US server, but after last weekend's update it is a crapshoot if I can stay connected through a mission on it. EU Expert server, no issues what-so-ever - US Expert server, I can stay connected for 20+ minutes or get discoed mid-flight 3 minutes in. However, yes, it was the US Expert server I saw this behavior.

[Feathered_IV]

I'll just do what I always do. Plot a course that will steer me to the target without being intercepted, hit it and return home undetected. They can't hit what they can't see.

[Gambit21]

I'll just do what I always do. Plot a course that will steer me to the target without being intercepted, hit it and return home undetected. They can't hit what they can't see.

It's very rewarding isn't it?

I'd like to take the time to get good at level bombing in the PE-2 as an option for when I'm in the mood.

[Feathered_IV]

Yeah it is rewarding. The navigational challenge, partnered with the tension of being intercepted make it particularly enjoyable. Not to mention the added perk of thumbing your nose at all the posturing fighter jocks.

[Gambit21]

Sometimes I'll just make a long sweep through enemy territory in a fighter then RTB, and I'm perfectly content.

A knife fight is all good too, but I don't always need that to have a good time.

[Praetor]

I'll just do what I always do. Plot a course that will steer me to the target without being intercepted, hit it and return home undetected. They can't hit what they can't see.

 

I would love to do this if hitting targets had value. Would probably fly the Stuka full time.

[Gambit21]

I get the "target value" thing, and it will definitely be even that much more appealing when that finally happens.

For now though the sense of accomplishment is enough for me.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I wonder where this myth of Fw190 being a slug comes from? Fw190 sure was not a real knife fighter like a "Zeke" for example, but not a slough either. It dominated Spitfire Mk.Vb's at will and even early Spitfire Mk.IX's were not superior to it. Pips Priller scored Spitfire/Mustang/P38/add plane kills in his supposedly flying pig Fw190A-8 over France and Germany. Sure it had quirky stall, but some pilots even used it as an evasive maneuver no other fighter could follow. As of using it as Jabo is pretty easy: rugged landing gear, less fragile engine(air cooled), speed and good armament, good flying characteristics.

 

 I would not turn fight in a Fw190A for sure, but use it's tremendous diving speed and heavy armament to obliterate any target in one pass and climb back up for another attack. In Boom and Zoom it will excel over any plane in BoS if the pilot is patient and does not try to drop flaps and start turning. I expect the whinery go through the roof if/when the 190 hits MP with capable pilots. Beating well coordinated Fw190's will be hard and if there are 109's in the mix as well, then could be a real challenge for opposing forces. Unbeatable? No, but to counter them would need more skill than just yank the stick and drop flaps.

 

 TL;DR Fly all planes at least some and it will teach you more than sticking just to one.

[FuriousMeow]

In the day of learning energy fighting, the Spits were outclassed by the 190 due to its ability to change direction quickly, gain a quick altitude advantage and use that to their advantage. That was the reason for the clipped wing Spit, to overcome that roll rate deficiency.

 

The 190 is a fine plane, don't make it out to be like the 190A-5 Aces High had when it was first introduced - because it wasn't close to that.

[Frequent_Flyer]

The score of the top 50 Luftwaffe Experten compared to the top 50 VVS pilots should be enough to quantify that. Especially considering that throughout a majority of the documented war, the Luftwaffe was horribly outnumbered...

 

Top scoring VVS pilot had 60-something victories... That's less than half of the top 50 German pilots.

 

I guess numeric statistics makes us all "fan boys."

 

Statistical evidence and historical documentation would state that not only were the Luftwaffe pilots better trained, they flew less numerous, but technologically superior aircraft.

Interesting how poorly the LW performed in the west with an equally " target rich environment ' ? The LW lost  more aircraft to west than the east. In addition the 190 had poor high altitude performance , until the inline engine was installed in the 190D.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I do not take AH as a reference. But neither the touted "truth" it being a total pig. Will see what vision the devs will have of it..

[Caudron431]

 

 

If it was such an butcher bird I wonder why majority of them served as jabos in SG's on eastern front.

That's actually a good question. My guess is that the 109 was inferior in the fighter bomber role (and in the fighter role). Perhaps the Luftwaffe had a shortage of bombers crew, or their bombers were not adapted to the front (too vulnerable?) i don't know.

Otherwise i do think that the 190A was a fantastic fighter aircraft, though (just as for any other fighter) not to the point to consider it a game changer...

 

The score of the top 50 Luftwaffe Experten compared to the top 50 VVS pilots should be enough to quantify that. Especially considering that throughout a majority of the documented war, the Luftwaffe was horribly outnumbered...

 

Top scoring VVS pilot had 60-something victories... That's less than half of the top 50 German pilots.

 

I guess numeric statistics makes us all "fan boys."

 

Statistical evidence and historical documentation would state that not only were the Luftwaffe pilots better trained, they flew less numerous, but technologically superior aircraft.

The Fw190A was very good, but not good enough to change things on the front. Luftwaffe pilots were good too: so many of them have such incredible number of kills that it perhaps tends to show that their successes were less about personal qualities (which were very good though) and technological "superiority" than about the nature of their job in the Russian environment (low level, target rich environment, psychological situation, tactical and strategical choices of the enemy that allowed things (lots of losses) but and most importantly, fordade other things (a German strategical victory)...).

 

It was not that special for a Luftwaffe pilot to have lots of kills on the Russian Front, even Germans pilots knew that, but it was good for the morale and to keep the (false) belief that your side was the best technically and morally, and that your side should have won the war, "had the enemy not 'cheated'" : there lies, in my humble opinion the "fanboy" factor, not in the aircraft and their pilots reputation .

 

In the end you have to keep i mind that you train men with tactical and strategical choices in mind with the objective to win a war, and even if it is in some ways similar, a VVS pilot's job was completely different than that of a Luftwaffe pilot. (Plus it is easier when you train your pilots because you know how and when you will start a war!) They did not fight the same war, they were not following the same rules nor the same orders, they did not have the same goals or face the same difficulties.

Fact: VVS, unlike the Luftwaffe, was never wiped out: the Luftwaffe strategical and tactical choices (and of the German army as a whole) were wrong and led to defeat. Figures prove that. Wars are not about duelling, they are not olympic games, the VVS or any other allied air force had for a goal to match their opponenents individual kill list!

 

Even if it is fun in a game! And it will be in BoS.

 

To sum up imho, "Statistical evidence and historical documentation" would state that:

 

The Luftwaffe pilots better trained but most importantly had more combat experience at the beginning of the war (the lack of it being psychologically very difficult to overcome, to its pilots credit VVS managed to do it), at the beginning of the war, but as the attrition went higher the luftwaffe pilots could less and less exploit the quality of their aircraft, the Luftwaffe itself playing a much less important role, was less and less feared, had less and less impact with time, pilots were also of very poor quality at the end of the war.

 

They flew less numerous, but could gather to gain air superiority over the target area, so they were not heroes all the time   far from it. But as the war progressed it became harder and harder to have a real impact. The VVS became stronger and stronger, very dangerous, also because of its increasing quality. Until a certain point in time, Luftwaffe pilots flew less numerous but on the other side, the front was not as dangerous as other ones. Being less numerous did not pay in the end.

 

 

Technologically superior aircraft: The technological gap was not great enough (piston engines) to make it a game changer.

 

As someone who loves WW2 airplanes i think you should try to get some interest in the soviet air forces, even if you do not speak Russian: there are a lot of translated or english books! Its history is just as interesting as the Nazi Germany Luftwaffe!

[Caudron431]

Interesting how poorly the LW performed in the west with an equally " target rich environment ' ? The LW lost  more aircraft to west than the east. In addition the 190 had poor high altitude performance , until the inline engine was installed in the 190D.

The western front was not a good playground for the Fw190A for sure. Allied there, unlike in the ETO had excellent radios, excellent ground control and radar, and excellent high altitude aircraft! One of the reasons of such an attrition maybe also lies in the fact that the German pilots there could not always dive to escape, or use marginal superior speed to save the day.

 

But there, the surviving Luftwaffe aces, they were really tough and lucky guys.

[von_Tom]

Sheesh

 

 

FW190 was a very good plane with regards to its overall combat capabilities.  In all its iterations possibly one of the best multi-role aircraft ever made.

 

It probabl;y never flew over Stalingrad unless the pilot got lost.

 

Some stuff turns better, some climb better, some are faster etc.

 

It will be shot down by anyone who manages to bounce it or if the FW190 pilot cocks up - even more so given the damage that a single 20mm hit can do.  That said a good FW190 should be able to mix it in a knife fight, at least for a little while and maybe enough to get a hit.

 

A schwarm or rotte of FW190s in this game will be deadly.

 

LW had better planes and training.  VVS had way more numbers and ultimately that's what counted.

 

Auto-balance is frustrating.

 

It seems more people want to fly LW than VVS - not necessarily because of superior aircraft but because they'd rather not fly VVS (I'm one of those).

 

If it were historical you'd have 12 109s plus a few bombers and 100 - 500+ VVS aircraft.  If I were fighting a war I'd much rather have overwhelming superiority in numbers if the techncal performance of my aircraft wasn't so bad in comparison.

 

For VVS auto-balance means teamwork is more important.

 

In the West the LW was up against equally as good aircraft with pilots who were just as good, fighting mostly at a higher altitude.  That's why it was harder to get kills - they weren't shooting at mostly sitting targets.

 

Hood

[SYN_Ricky]

If it was such an butcher bird I wonder why majority of them served as jabos in SG's on eastern front.Again,much ado about nothing with luftwaffle fanboys.If it should live up to its "'urban legend"' then VVS would be wiped out in early 1943 completly.

 

The production of the FW-190 never managed to satisfy the needs of both the Jagdwaffe and Schlacht units, that's why for instance most of JG51 reverted to the Bf 109 after Citadel.

Seems the Luftwaffe realized it needed more Fw 190 fighters on the western front to fight against four-engined bombers. The 109 was up to the fighter job on the eastern front, but there the ground attack role was more important that's why most FW 190 units on the eastern front were Schlacht units, as from 1943 on the FW 190 became the main german ground attack plane.

[Finkeren]

You can sort of compare the Fw 190 to the RAF's Typhoon. It's not that the Typhoon wasn't a good fighter, it was, it's just that its heavy armament, sturdy construction and large payload made it far more suited as a bomber interceptor and ground attack aircraft than the Spitfire, so that's how it was mostly used.

 

It wasn't just the Luftwaffe that diverted a large portion of their fighter force to the fighter-bomber role from 1942 on. The first half of the war had shown the vulnerability of the single engined dive bombers and attack aircraft, and almost all air forces focused instead on fighter-bombers and twin engined medium-light bombers. The IL-2 was just about the only single engined attack aircraft that survived in widespread service throughout the war.