Help required: Bf09 F-2 vs Spitfire Vb

[Russkly]

I'm flying an early war career in PWCG with I/JG52.

 

It recreates the air war from Dunkirk, through the Kanalkampf, BoB and onwards. Jolly fun even without the correct plane set.

 

I am however really struggling with the F-2 whenever I come up against Spitfire Vbs - they seem to be able to do everything I can do and more. I certainly can't out-turn them and don't seem to be able to out-climb or even out-dive them.

 

Given that PWCG oftens gives me an alt disadvantage, or at best co-alt, can anyone advise strategies for dealing with Spits, please?

 

At present, unless I have or can easily get an alt advantage, I run away (a bit like a later war career in Gustavs whenever I see Spitfire IXs).

 

It's a bit enervating, esp. when in the reverse career (i.e. in Spits) the Friedrichs always seem to come down from on high)!

[=420=Syphen]

You should have a very slight climb, and a dive advantage. Similar rollrates. But for those hard sustained turns the Spit will have advantage.  The 109 should accelerate faster though. You should be able to get them energy match, bleed off their speed and try to establish an advantage by accelerating out. It won't be through out turning them however.

[Russkly]

2 hours ago, =420=Syphen said:

You should have a very slight climb, and a dive advantage. Similar rollrates. But for those hard sustained turns the Spit will have advantage.  The 109 should accelerate faster though. You should be able to get them energy match, bleed off their speed and try to establish an advantage by accelerating out. It won't be through out turning them however.

 

Thanks, Syphen.

 

Good advice.

 

I suppose one of the advantages the AI has is that performance is always maximised, whereas I am human and thus possibly not always optimised.

 

Also when trying to extend away using the slight climb/acceleration advantage you say I should have (all things being equal, which they're not as per my point above), in order to gain an energy advantage, I find that the AI is able to do low energy sprays that inevitably cause some damage.

 

It seems that the F-2 pilot has to be incredibly patient and careful unless he has an alt advantage (and PWCG rarely sets up encounters with me having alt advantage for some reason). If the Spit has alt/energy advantage, I think I will simply continue to avoid combat until the more powerful F-4 arrives.

 

Doesn't make it much fun!

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

If you feel you are at alt disadvantages, you can change waypoint altitudes if you want in PWCG. 

[Koziolek]

29 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

If you feel you are at alt disadvantages, you can change waypoint altitudes if you want in PWCG. 

Will it not change the altitude of the opposing flights as well?

[oc2209]

9 hours ago, Russkly said:

I am however really struggling with the F-2 whenever I come up against Spitfire Vbs - they seem to be able to do everything I can do and more. I certainly can't out-turn them and don't seem to be able to out-climb or even out-dive them.

 

While my legions of fans here might be surprised, there are days when I kind of hate the 109. Unlike the Spit, Yak, or P-51, if I'm in a bad mood/impatient, and try to fly the 109 with the mindset of 'just getting it over with', it will punish me severely. Mainly by stalling constantly in any maneuver. The F-2 being somewhat underpowered only exacerbates this issue. I honestly avoid it like the plague and only fly the F-4 in career.

 

Anyway, that note of explanation aside, here's my crappy how-to on fighting a Spit V with the Merlin 45:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Best I could do after several frustrating attempts.

 

Edit: I gave him 1,000m alt. advantage on a head-to-head start.

 

Edit 2: I intentionally ignored him after the merge and maintained a shallow climb at approx. 220 MPH to gain 1500 feet from my starting alt.

 

Edit 3: That time when he fired at me: I knew he was back there, but didn't expect him to shoot that far off. I was nonetheless attempting to 'lure him' in, which is sad (for my ego) that I have to resort to such knavery against AI.

Edited November 19, 2022 by oc2209

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, I finished a scripted campaign in the F-2 recently. Weak engine, medicore armament, and overall kind of meh. Good thing this was a Moscow campaign, so no Spits, and against I-16s and MiG-3s, it was mostly adequate. Although, the second campaign was Stalingrad in the G-2. If anything, that bastard is even worse. The only good thing about it is that you can't break the engine unless you run it on combat power for 30 minutes straight. Yes, it outputs more power in combat power than the F-2 in emergency power, but it's also heavier and somewhat more draggy, so it doesn't turn, doesn't climb and doesn't accelerate, either. And then, someone had the bright idea to slap gunpods on it (the only thing those are good for is attacking bombers. I don't mind being able to disintegrate a La-5 with a full salvo, but most of the time I don't need to). Flying the F-4 after that is so much more fun. 

[kraut1]

In combat try to keep speed.

Don't fly to narrow turns with too much positiv G because the automatic leading edges / slotswere activated with much additional drag. In IL2 1946 I had the same problems and learned to keep some distance after enemy contact and to climb at first to get some advantage.

In Great Battles I fly currently many 1940 missions against Hurricanes / Spitfires with Vanders EMG.

I found out that it is possible to fight with a BF109-E7(E4, E3 with manual propeller controll) aginst a Spitfire Vb (AI level regular)

If you want to simulate the unreability of the early cannon armed Spitfires (frequent stoppages) I have published in the Mod Forum an Armament Mod.

If you want to simulate the very early BF109-F0, F1 of JG51 in October 40 you could use the other mod for simulation the frequent stoppages / gun jams of the MG-FF/M Motor cannon, that was replaced in the F2 by the MG151.

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by kraut1

[Russkly]

13 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

While my legions of fans here might be surprised, there are days when I kind of hate the 109. Unlike the Spit, Yak, or P-51, if I'm in a bad mood/impatient, and try to fly the 109 with the mindset of 'just getting it over with', it will punish me severely. Mainly by stalling constantly in any maneuver. The F-2 being somewhat underpowered only exacerbates this issue. I honestly avoid it like the plague and only fly the F-4 in career.

 

Anyway, that note of explanation aside, here's my crappy how-to on fighting a Spit V with the Merlin 45:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

Best I could do after several frustrating attempts.

 

Edit: I gave him 1,000m alt. advantage on a head-to-head start.

 

Edit 2: I intentionally ignored him after the merge and maintained a shallow climb at approx. 220 MPH to gain 1500 feet from my starting alt.

 

Edit 3: That time when he fired at me: I knew he was back there, but didn't expect him to shoot that far off. I was nonetheless attempting to 'lure him' in, which is sad (for my ego) that I have to resort to such knavery against AI.

 

I'm glad it's not just me then!

 

12 hours ago, kraut1 said:

In combat try to keep speed.

Don't fly to narrow turns with too much positiv G because the automatic leading edges / slotswere activated with much additional drag. In IL2 1946 I had the same problems and learned to keep some distance after enemy contact and to climb at first to get some advantage.

In Great Battles I fly currently many 1940 missions against Hurricanes / Spitfires with Vanders EMG.

I found out that it is possible to fight with a BF109-E7(E4, E3 with manual propeller controll) aginst a Spitfire Vb (AI level regular)

If you want to simulate the unreability of the early cannon armed Spitfires (frequent stoppages) I have published in the Mod Forum an Armament Mod.

If you want to simulate the very early BF109-F0, F1 of JG51 in October 40 you could use the other mod for simulation the frequent stoppages / gun jams of the MG-FF/M Motor cannon, that was replaced in the F2 by the MG151.

 

 

Thanks, kraut1.

 

I may try those mods.

 

As for keeping speed and avoiding too much stick pressure, I am trying to do that, but I just can't seem to get away from the Spits, which seem to have every base covered.

16 hours ago, Koziolek said:

Will it not change the altitude of the opposing flights as well?

 

Yes, I think that is the case although am not sure - will experiment.

 

Either way, I feel like it should be possible for the F-2 to compete with the Vb at co-alt. If the latter has an alt advantage, I think I will have to disengage to gain height or just disengage full stop.

Thanks to all.

 

In essence it seems that there aren't really any tricks to produce a more even fight.

 

I may try dialling down the AI level from +2 (on scale of -4 to +4 in PWCG advanced config) and see if that helps.

 

Wish me luck...

[kraut1]

2 hours ago, Russkly said:

 

I'm glad it's not just me then!

 

 

Thanks, kraut1.

 

I may try those mods.

 

As for keeping speed and avoiding too much stick pressure, I am trying to do that, but I just can't seem to get away from the Spits, which seem to have every base covered.

 

Yes, I think that is the case although am not sure - will experiment.

 

Either way, I feel like it should be possible for the F-2 to compete with the Vb at co-alt. If the latter has an alt advantage, I think I will have to disengage to gain height or just disengage full stop.

Thanks to all.

 

In essence it seems that there aren't really any tricks to produce a more even fight.

 

I may try dialling down the AI level from +2 (on scale of -4 to +4 in PWCG advanced config) and see if that helps.

 

Wish me luck...

Maybe it has to do with the mission design in PWCG. Yes I would go down to 0 ... -2 in PWCG advanced config.

And what you could try very easy and fast:

Start a normal IL2 GB quick mission Lapino Summer Map / Air combat mission with many planes.

2 flight 4xBF109-F2, I would suggest AI level regular.

2 flights of 4xSpitfire Vb same AI Level.

Altidute 1000m

shortest distance and and the Option side by side.

And try out how difficult it is.

I flew for 1940 tests in the last weeks some similar missions BF109-E7 vs Spitfire Vb and I was surprised that both planes were more or less equal in combat.

 

 

 

[CountZero]

If you look at it speed , at combat your faster then his combat (International +9lbs) both have it for 30min, and at max power your faster abow 4km.

Climb, also at combat for both, you see your better below 5km and he is higher.

So its not like your out of options, also they dont carry that many 20mm ammo.

 

Red is Spitfire Vb 45 engine, blue is 109F2 both 50% fuel, left lines are combat right ones max power ( left picture speed, right one is climb):

 

Just because he can turn tighter at slow speds dont make it imposible to fight in 109f2

Edited November 20, 2022 by CountZero

[Russkly]

21 minutes ago, CountZero said:

If you look at it speed , at combat your faster then his combat (International +9lbs) both have it for 30min, and at max power your faster abow 4km.

Climb, also at combat for both, you see your better below 5km and he is higher.

So its not like your out of options, also they dont carry that many 20mm ammo.

 

Red is Spitfire Vb 45 engine, blue is 109F2 both 50% fuel, left lines are combat right ones max power ( left picture speed, right one is climb):

 

Just because he can turn tighter at slow speds dont make it imposible to fight in 109f2

 

Thanks, CountZero, very interesting information.

 

In theory then, given that most PWCG missions take place <5Km at this early stage of the war (it is officially mid-1941 but actually represents 1940), the F-2 should have a theoretical advantage in both speed and rate of climb.

 

I clearly need to work harder, because I'm simply not feeling those on-paper advantages.

[percydanvers]

On 11/19/2022 at 6:00 AM, Russkly said:

I'm flying an early war career in PWCG with I/JG52.

 

It recreates the air war from Dunkirk, through the Kanalkampf, BoB and onwards. Jolly fun even without the correct plane set.

 

I am however really struggling with the F-2 whenever I come up against Spitfire Vbs - they seem to be able to do everything I can do and more. I certainly can't out-turn them and don't seem to be able to out-climb or even out-dive them.

 

Given that PWCG oftens gives me an alt disadvantage, or at best co-alt, can anyone advise strategies for dealing with Spits, please?

 

At present, unless I have or can easily get an alt advantage, I run away (a bit like a later war career in Gustavs whenever I see Spitfire IXs).

 

It's a bit enervating, esp. when in the reverse career (i.e. in Spits) the Friedrichs always seem to come down from on high)!

 

Everyone has weighed in in far more detail than I have to hand, but I've always found it works to just get above them as much as possible. If you're above the Spitfire V you will win eventually in a 109.