Pilot kills

[ACG_Ginger]

Hi all

Just a quick observation since the last update. I fly only multiplayer so this might not affect single player ?

As anyone noticed an increase in the amount of PK's when flying lately?  It seems that you get no indication of hit's just killed instantly.  

We had a flight of 9 pilots last night on CB , 8 of them PK'd , so either the enemy have all got very good all of a sudden or there's a problem?

This is from a allied point of view, have also noticed wings coming off 109's like there going out of fashion.

 

[migmadmarine]

A couple of patches ago, the reverted to the older pilot damage model. It used to be that the pilot took an inflated amount of damage (like upwards of 2 7.62 rounds to the head) to kill. 

[oc2209]

Frequency of pilot kills and 109 wing breakage are phenomena noticed by seemingly quite a few people lately.

 

I've even noticed the wing breakage in single player.

 

I don't really notice pilot kills being more common in single player, but other multiplayers have mentioned it before you.

[CountZero]

59 minutes ago, ACG_Ginger said:

Hi all

Just a quick observation since the last update. I fly only multiplayer so this might not affect single player ?

As anyone noticed an increase in the amount of PK's when flying lately?  It seems that you get no indication of hit's just killed instantly.  

We had a flight of 9 pilots last night on CB , 8 of them PK'd , so either the enemy have all got very good all of a sudden or there's a problem?

This is from a allied point of view, have also noticed wings coming off 109's like there going out of fashion.

 

So then you have stats and you can see how many bullets hit you, i dont see how spitfire should servive that amount of bulets, and back armor cant save from big callibar.

 

On top like said previously crew helth was reduced in 5.001, with this other changes:

Damage Model Improvements
9. Aircraft DM: RHA equivalent of the aircraft skin has been reduced nearly three times to the previous (wrong) values.
10. Aircraft DM: an issue that made aircraft skin damage too severe for larger bombers and some fighters has been fixed.
11. Aircraft DM: like the previously released change for larger caliber ammo, now all projectiles in the game loose integrity and stability after penetrating a significant armor thickness which affects their remaining ability to penetrate armor.
12. Aircraft DM: the relative speed of the target is correctly accounted for projectile penetrations calculations.
13. Aircraft DM: AP bullets and shells make slightly bigger holes in the airframe and aircraft skin.
14. Aircraft DM: powerful HE rounds explosions cause more damage to the airframe, aircraft skin and components.
15. Aircraft DM: small HE bullets cause less damage to aircraft skin.
16. Aircraft DM: it is now possible to damage radiators and fuel tanks when firing 7.62-7.92 rounds from more than 350 m distance.
17. Aircraft DM: bullets are less likely to ricochet from aircraft skin at low angles.
18. Aircraft DM: Bf 109 radiator collision model has been improved (previously its wrong shape could cause most smaller caliber bullets to ricochet when fired directly from behind).
19. Aircraft DM: the loss of the bullets energy hitting Bf 109 F-4 engine has been corrected.
20. Aircraft DM: an issue that caused bullets hitting Spitfire Mk.XIV MGs and guns to not lose energy has been fixed.
21. Aircraft DM: engine fire probability from bullet hits has been somewhat increased for WWI-era piston engines and jet engines.
22. Aircraft DM: engine fire probability from bullet hits has been reduced for WWII-era piston engines.
23. Aircraft DM: fuel tank fire probability from bullet hits has been reduced.
24. Aircraft DM: fuel tank fire and explosion probability from HE ammo hits has been reduced, now it depends on the HE power more.
25. Aircraft DM: it’s now harder to put out the fires by side-slip movement.
26. Aircraft DM: the several years old ‘crew health cheat’ (they required four point-blank 7.62 bullets in the torso or two in the head to be killed) has been removed. Now their ability to sustain damage is much more close to reality.

 

[Enceladus828]

I've noticed that the pilot is killed or suffers injuries much more easily now.

• After only a few hits with even machine guns bullets which aren’t aimed anywhere near the cockpit or canopy, the pilot instantly dies.
• One time I got a considerable amount of my tail blown off my Hurricane from a Bf-109F which came at me from my 8 or 9 o'clock position and then behind me and away, I received no hits elsewhere, the Hurricane kept flying… only just… and the pilot was seriously injured.
• I was flying an Arado 234 on an anti-shipping mission on the BoN map, I lost both engines, and less than 5 miles from shore when I was going just over 200 km/h and less than 100 meters from the water, the plane stalled, rolled almost 90* to the left and the left wing hit the water with the last third of it snapping off. As soon as the left wing snapped off (the only damage done to the Arado as a result of hitting the water), the pilot was killed.
• Lastly, this

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Enceladus said:

I've noticed that the pilot is killed or suffers injuries much more easily now.

• After only a few hits with even machine guns bullets which aren’t aimed anywhere near the cockpit or canopy, the pilot instantly dies.

 

I can't believe this claim. Not without some recordings. It runs contrary to everything I've ever seen and still experience.

 

You're essentially claiming that the sim's just totally fabricating results, like an LMG bullet hitting the tail and killing the pilot.

 

This is representative of all my experience of shooting at pilots with LMGs:

 

Spoiler

 

 

You cannot kill a pilot through his seat armor, with the bullets first entering the plane at the tail or fuselage. Presumably too much deflection occurs.

 

You can kill him by firing at an oblique angle that strikes the cockpit from the rear quarter of either side, or by penetrating and/or shooting just over his headrest armor.

 

Those are the only ways to kill a pilot with LMGs, from behind. You either must shoot around the seat armor, or possibly through the headrest (and only then at very close range). If the bullets actually are penetrating the headrest armor, it is likely because they are entering the plane's skin just a few inches behind the headrest itself; i.e, not passing through multiple tail/fuselage components to reach the seat armor.

[Strewth]

Sorry to steer this thread a bit, but I have to ask.
Although I love this sim, it appears a lot easier to PK an opponent, or be killed yourself in a armoured cockpit of a WWII aircraft.
However, when I am in Flying Circus, I notice that no matter how much lead I plant into the butter box ahead of me, it is an extreme rarity to get a PK. I have come up behind, side on and over the top while peppering that kite with all I have, only to have them moving along merrily. You can destroy spars and the likes, removing wings, etc, but the PK is such an elusive victory.

Cheers

[Enceladus828]

1 hour ago, oc2209 said:

I can't believe this claim. Not without some recordings. It runs contrary to everything I've ever seen and still experience.

 

You're essentially claiming that the sim's just totally fabricating results, like an LMG bullet hitting the tail and killing the pilot.

There was an instance where I was chasing some He-111s in my Hurricane and when I was around .50 from them, the ventral gunner fired at me. I don't know exactly where the bullet hit as the camera moves out and I wasn't recording (I rarely record anything unless its for a test purpose), but the pilot was killed instantly.

 

There was another instance where I was flying a G-14 or G-6 Late and a P-47 Razorback opened fire behind me with just MGs and no cannons, while the bullets were only hitting the wing roots, they were enough to kill the pilot.

[Lusekofte]

I blew a tire in coop and ground looped on the feet no drama slow speed. Still I died. 
so something is off. This happened in coop. Where life and career matter. It is frustrating at times. We are not so much bothered by PK.  I think in battle

[GasTeddy]

14 hours ago, Enceladus said:

There was another instance where I was flying a G-14 or G-6 Late and a P-47 Razorback opened fire behind me with just MGs and no cannons, while the bullets were only hitting the wing roots, they were enough to kill the pilot.

 

Well, Razorback has no cannon, but eight .50 cal machine guns.

[RyanR]

In single player I'll get all grumpy about a a dead pilot.... then I switch to external view and see a big 20mm cannon "decal" from the new damage vis system.

 

The .50 cals have been potent since an update sometime in the last year specifically made them "better". A P-47 just needs a snapshot at 300 yards

 

-Ryan

[oc2209]

17 hours ago, Enceladus said:

There was an instance where I was chasing some He-111s in my Hurricane and when I was around .50 from them, the ventral gunner fired at me. I don't know exactly where the bullet hit as the camera moves out and I wasn't recording (I rarely record anything unless its for a test purpose), but the pilot was killed instantly.

 

There was another instance where I was flying a G-14 or G-6 Late and a P-47 Razorback opened fire behind me with just MGs and no cannons, while the bullets were only hitting the wing roots, they were enough to kill the pilot.

 

Getting sniped by gunners is nothing new or related to the pilot physiology.

 

As for having 8x.50s hitting the wing roots, that's plenty near enough to the cockpit for a stray shot to hit your pilot. There's nothing wrong with a single .50 (if that was the case) being fatal.

 

If you think AP has 'splash' damage, you are mistaken. Either an AP round hits your pilot directly, or it doesn't.

 

7 hours ago, 216th_Lusekofte said:

I blew a tire in coop and ground looped on the feet no drama slow speed. Still I died. 
so something is off. This happened in coop. Where life and career matter. It is frustrating at times. We are not so much bothered by PK.  I think in battle

 

Lived through this:

 

Spoiler

 

 

And this:

 

Spoiler

 

So whatever happened to you, isn't as consistent as the old 'random death on slight ground contact' bug.

[[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain]

On 11/19/2022 at 2:44 AM, Strewth said:

Sorry to steer this thread a bit, but I have to ask.
Although I love this sim, it appears a lot easier to PK an opponent, or be killed yourself in a armoured cockpit of a WWII aircraft.
However, when I am in Flying Circus, I notice that no matter how much lead I plant into the butter box ahead of me, it is an extreme rarity to get a PK. I have come up behind, side on and over the top while peppering that kite with all I have, only to have them moving along merrily. You can destroy spars and the likes, removing wings, etc, but the PK is such an elusive victory.

Cheers

 

 

There's no physiology difference between ww1 and ww2 pilots, they take the same amount of hits to kill. You're likely seeing more ww2 pilot kills due to the considerably more powerful armament. Banks of .50 cal or cannon shells aren't stopped by the slim amount of seat armour most cockpits had. In ww1 you only have 1-2 machine guns, so pilot hits require a lot more precision. One shot to the head will kill pilots in ww1, but you need to land that hit. 

 

Also worth noting several types have fuel tanks positioned behind the pilot, which acts as fairly effective armour, so aim for the head. Example: https://gfycat.com/athleticsomeindianrockpython

[RossMarBow]

Personally I don't have an issue with it. 

[Strewth]

4 hours ago, [F.Circus]Gorn_Captain said:

 

 

There's no physiology difference between ww1 and ww2 pilots, they take the same amount of hits to kill. You're likely seeing more ww2 pilot kills due to the considerably more powerful armament. Banks of .50 cal or cannon shells aren't stopped by the slim amount of seat armour most cockpits had. In ww1 you only have 1-2 machine guns, so pilot hits require a lot more precision. One shot to the head will kill pilots in ww1, but you need to land that hit. 

 

Also worth noting several types have fuel tanks positioned behind the pilot, which acts as fairly effective armour, so aim for the head. Example: https://gfycat.com/athleticsomeindianrockpython

I understand where you are coming from.
I also have a WWI 6.5mm and a WWI .303 rifle and understand quite well their penetration levels in different substances, including flesh.

But from what you appear to be describing, an entire magazine of ammo from a .303 machine gun neither empties the fuel tank, or injures the pilot?
I know that if I ever got hit with a .303 round, even in an extremity and not only my head, that I would not just be zippety-do-da'ing around the sky. whether 2 or 6 machine guns, it only takes one single projectile. And as I also stated, many accurate shots from myself over the many times, were from the side or above.

[Hotaru_Ito]

Pilot kills are definitely much more common for me in single player lately. I've had six different careers PK'd in the last few weeks, and only one die any other way (wing shot off by AA). Vanilla and PWCG, Allied and Axis, good variety of planes, both mine and opponents. All of those were basically the first time I was hit on those missions--one hit, instant death. Seeing a lot of the same in QMB as well. Also have the feeling I'm scoring more victories that way too, although that's harder to quantify.

 

By contrast, I haven't had a career pilot wounded in ages, except in crash landings. Seems like every bullet that hits the cockpit is a straight head or chest shot, no grazes, shrapnel, arm/leg hits, or anything. It's either an instant kill or nothing.

 

It got to where it was really taking the fun out of things, happening so often. Both the victories and the deaths felt cheesy. So I modded the pilot files to increase the health by a factor of 5. Haven't been playing that way for long, but general impression is I'm scoring more kills by breakup, engine fire, etc. and fewer by PK. Don't know if it's more realistic or not, but it's more fun.

[SCG_motoadve]

2 hours ago, Hotaru_Ito said:

By contrast, I haven't had a career pilot wounded in ages, except in crash landings. Seems like every bullet that hits the cockpit is a straight head or chest shot, no grazes, shrapnel, arm/leg hits, or anything. It's either an instant kill or nothing.

 

It got to where it was really taking the fun out of things, happening so often. Both the victories and the deaths felt cheesy. So I modded the pilot files to increase the health by a factor of 5. Haven't been playing that way for long, but general impression is I'm scoring more kills by breakup, engine fire, etc. and fewer by PK. Don't know if it's more realistic or not, but it's more fun.

Pilot kills are ruining the fun, SP and MP,IRL there were many German pilots that were shot down more than 10 times during the war, and continued to fly, try to be shot down 10 times in the sim, and not one of them be a pilot kill, its impossible.

You also get sniped in bombers, first bullet pilot kill,  its a joke, no fun and ruining immersion giving an arcade feel to IL2 series.

 

I would like to increase the health of the pilot for SP, how do you do that?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Just fly WW1 for a change. Pilots hanging out in the open protected by a single layer of fabric and some sticks almost never get hit, but a very few hits to your upper wing brings the aircraft down with remarkable efficiency.  

 

It flies in the face of the reality of WW1 air combat, where aiming for meat or metal (the engine) was the best way to bring down one of those old kites.

 

Very frustrating.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

41 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Pilot kills are ruining the fun, SP and MP,IRL ....its a joke, no fun and ruining immersion giving an arcade feel to IL2 series

Can't say is arcade is too hardcore. Arcade is health bar or unrealistic strong body. The issue is that monitor aiming is to easy in general, but lack airframe shaking ,no turbulences behind aircraft.  Another thing is that pilot body should be better modeld , not all wounds should be fatal, pilots do survived bullet hits , shrapnel even more.

9 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Just fly WW1 for a change. Pilots hanging out in the open protected by a single layer of fabric and some sticks almost never get hit, but a very few hits to your upper wing brings the aircraft down with remarkable efficiency.  

 

It flies in the face of the reality of WW1 air combat, where aiming for meat or metal (the engine) was the best way to bring down one of those old kites.

 

Very frustrating.

They do , most my kills are PK , but weak wing is bigger issue for sure.

[the_emperor]

7 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

The issue is that monitor aiming is to easy in general, but lack airframe shaking ,no turbulences behind aircraft

This. One must not forget that in game we are doing much higher deflection shots than were common (and possible) than in real life as this is still a game. 

we are still able to make high deflection shot while doing high gs/tight turns and have our head glued behind the reticle. 

a little more realistic headshake that lets you lose your sight picture/ fire solution while rolling/high gs would make things feel more realistic (cliffs of dover does a decent job in that regards). though I dont know how that would mix with VR.

These high deflection shots might also render armour less effective than it was since our bullets tend to enter the cockpit from side angles were no armour protection was given.

[SCG_motoadve]

1 hour ago, the_emperor said:

This. One must not forget that in game we are doing much higher deflection shots than were common (and possible) than in real life as this is still a game. 

we are still able to make high deflection shot while doing high gs/tight turns and have our head glued behind the reticle. 

a little more realistic headshake that lets you lose your sight picture/ fire solution while rolling/high gs would make things feel more realistic (cliffs of dover does a decent job in that regards). though I dont know how that would mix with VR.

These high deflection shots might also render armour less effective than it was since our bullets tend to enter the cockpit from side angles were no armour protection was given.

Exactly, this is why pilot health should be increased to compensate for how easy is to aim, shoot, compared to real life.

Then we can have a more realistic pilot kills ratio.

[MiGCap]

The Ar 234 pilot need a little more toughness also. Even if You only have a slight misfortune at take-off or landing and the cockpit section is intact, the Arado pilot dies. ?

[the_emperor]

2 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Exactly, this is why pilot health should be increased to compensate for how easy is to aim, shoot, compared to real life.

 

Or simulate realistic head movement/forces acting upon the pilots head to loose aim, Others simulation can do that, I bet this one can too

[6./ZG26_Custard]

19 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

You also get sniped in bombers, first bullet pilot kill,  its a joke, no fun and ruining immersion

The instant death occurrences in large aircraft is extremely frustrating and quite honestly beyond a joke. There is a fair amount of distance from the tail of a bomber to the cockpit, with systems, bodies and several sections of armour plate in the way before it reaches the pilot. It doesn't help that the ai gunners are pretty useless and aircraft can just line up on your six. Pilots are being knocked out with laser beam accuracy and bullets seem to just be travelling in a direct line with no deviation. Never a good indicator but just look at the amount of gun camera footage of bombers being attacked and they take massive amounts of damage and keep flying (bearing in mind that these would be the best examples of footage) The durability of bombers really needs to be looked at, as well as the wing-offs in the 109.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

20 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

It flies in the face of the reality of WW1 air combat, where aiming for meat or metal (the engine) was the best way to bring down one of those old kites.

Couldn't agree more, it seems at times like the pilots have magic shields around them.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Couldn't agree more, it seems at times like the pilots have magic shields around them.

Hmm , those riffle calibers are less lethal than 50s or 20mm. It looks like that in the game. Anyway I mostly kill the pilot. Only because my bad aim i do damage enemy  wings, and if this is  Albatross ,alb wings just snap during any G manuver. Not the case in most central planes. So I always aim for meat or metal.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 minute ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Hmm , those riffle calibers are less lethal than 50s or 20mm. It looks like that in the game. Anyway I mostly kill the pilot. Only because my bad aim i do damage enemy  wings, and if this is  Albatross ,alb wings just snap during any G manuver. Not the case in most central planes. So I always aim for meat or metal.

Yeah that maybe, but they firing into wood and fabric. The bullet seemed to magically flow around the pilots at times. 

Something certainly seems to be "off"

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

10 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Yeah that maybe, but they firing into wood and fabric. The bullet seemed to magically flow around the pilots at times. 

Something certainly seems to be "off"

 

If they are as lethal as WW2 the propablity of been hit is less likely. It's strange, they should be less deflected and there is no pilot protection.

 

Any way I think is better that way , because it would be to easy and not fun.

 

Look at that, what happened  in the mp dogfight, I was in the Camel 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[6./ZG26_Custard]

4 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

If they are as lethal as WW2 the propablity of been hit is less likely. It's strange, they should be less deflected and there is no pilot protection.

 

Any way I think is better that way , because it would be to easy and not fun.

I suppose firing dozens of rounds at a wooden and fabric aircraft with little to no protection should produce more pilot kills "in game" but as you said that would be frustrating and no fun. The reverse could be true when applying it to the WWII aircraft where pilots particularly in large aircraft get killed with laser beam accuracy despite having to pass through airframes, multiple systems, armour plates the gunner bodies to reach the pilots. 

[SCG_motoadve]

4 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The instant death occurrences in large aircraft is extremely frustrating and quite honestly beyond a joke. There is a fair amount of distance from the tail of a bomber to the cockpit, with systems, bodies and several sections of armour plate in the way before it reaches the pilot. It doesn't help that the ai gunners are pretty useless and aircraft can just line up on your six. Pilots are being knocked out with laser beam accuracy and bullets seem to just be travelling in a direct line with no deviation. Never a good indicator but just look at the amount of gun camera footage of bombers being attacked and they take massive amounts of damage and keep flying (bearing in mind that these would be the best examples of footage) The durability of bombers really needs to be looked at, as well as the wing-offs in the 109.

Could not agree more, not only about the instant laser pilot kills , but also the durability of the 109 wing, its ok to have it break, but its happening way too often, like if they are made of cardboard.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

26 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

I suppose firing dozens of rounds at a wooden and fabric aircraft with little to no protection should produce more pilot kills "in game" but as you said that would be frustrating and no fun. The reverse could be true when applying it to the WWII aircraft where pilots particularly in large aircraft get killed with laser beam accuracy despite having to pass through airframes, multiple systems, armour plates the gunner bodies to reach the pilots. 

Yes , I fly both genres and have the same opinion.

3 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Could not agree more, not only about the instant laser pilot kills , but also the durability of the 109 wing, its ok to have it break, but its happening way too often, like if they are made of cardboard.

This is true, the 109 wing is to fragile, wing break happened to often.

[tattywelshie]

Yeah, the pilot kills in SP are I think a bit on the strong side at the moment, can barely survive more than 2-3 missions without someone sniping me from afar! 

[Talon_]

I've spent a lot of time poring over P-47D and P-51B/C/D encounter reports and it would simply shock you guys how often you'll read "I saw no chute deployed".

 

Reality of it is that even one .50 or the spalling from it through your cockpit is gonna make it very unlikely for you to stay awake long enough to get out of your aircraft against all the Gs and aero forces at play.

[SCG_motoadve]

1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

I've spent a lot of time poring over P-47D and P-51B/C/D encounter reports and it would simply shock you guys how often you'll read "I saw no chute deployed".

 

Reality of it is that even one .50 or the spalling from it through your cockpit is gonna make it very unlikely for you to stay awake long enough to get out of your aircraft against all the Gs and aero forces at play.

First bullet pilot kills happening very often even against bombers.

You can also read encounter reports from many German pilots who were shot down 10 times or more and got to fly again.

We cannot survive in the sim to be shot down 10 times, not even 5 times without being pilot killed flying a 109 or 190.

Shooting , aiming is a lot easier in the sim than real life, no wake turbulence for starters.

 

[tattywelshie]

It’s really hard to tell how accurate pilot deaths are, i think the actual modelling of them is correct, a round through the cockpit glass has a good chance of hitting ones bonce and hence certain death. But I’m not so sure about the accuracy of the AI, they seem to have a pretty accurate shot from a decent distance. Either that, or I need to up my skills!

[JG27*PapaFly]

I also see a lot more PKs since the latest patch. Their probability appears to increase almost exponentially with decreasing distance to target. Hitting an opponent with my MG-151/20 from very close range almost guarantees a PK. It's as if at close range shrapnel from HE rounds makes it into the cockpit even from nearby hits in the wings or fuselage. 

[migmadmarine]

Ideally I'd like to see this added as a server-side difficulty option. Being able to survive multiple large rifle caliber rounds to the head always seemed stupid to me, but hey, some people like that for reasons stated above, so for SP it should be a selectable option, and for MP it should be something the server host can choose for what kind of environment they want to provide to their players. 

[[DBS]Browning]

On 11/20/2022 at 1:29 PM, SCG_motoadve said:

IRL there were many German pilots that were shot down more than 10 times during the war, and continued to fly, try to be shot down 10 times in the sim, and not one of them be a pilot kill, its impossible.

This is a textbook example of survivor bias. We know about the pilots who got shot down several times without serious injury because they survived being shot down and lived to tell us about it and write about it. What we don't get to hear about is all the pilots who were killed from a single bullet. Those pilots never got to tell anyone about it, and there is no record of the way they died.
So history tell us all the details about pilots who were shot down and survived and the details of those who were killed in their cockpits we will never know anything about. Even the physical evidence is lost in the crash and fire.

 

Simulating if the pilot was hit by a bullet or not is a trivially easy thing for the sim to do. I can't imagine many ways it could get it wrong, so I trust it completely.
The planes are small and the silhouette of the pilot takes up a significant proportion of the plane's rear silhouette. Almost no planes carry armour capable of stopping most bullets. It's not at all surprising that pilots are regularly hit with even a few hits on the plane.

Gunnery may be a little easier in the sim, but I suspect a bigger reason most people have good gunnery is simply the amount of combat practice most players have. The majority of second war pilots had no experience of shooting down another plane at all*, whilst the majority of virtual pilots have done it thousands of times.

 

*By this I mean, if you chose a random fighter pilot from the second war at a random point in their career, chances are they have not yet scored a kill. I have absolutely no evidence to back this up, but I'd bet a months wages on it.

Edited November 21, 2022 by [DBS]Browning

[LukeFF]

36 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

The planes are small and the silhouette of the pilot takes up a significant proportion of the plane's rear silhouette. Almost no planes carry armour capable of stopping most bullets. It's not at all surprising that pilots are regularly hit with even a few hits on the plane.

 

Dakota Territory discussed this recently in an article on one of the P-47s they've been restoring. They remarked on how people like to call the P-47 a "flying tank", but in reality, the amount of armor that was protecting the pilot wasn't all that vastly different from contemporary planes - there's only so much armor one can add before a plane becomes decidedly unpleasant to fly.
 

Quote

However, the common description of the Thunderbolt as a flying tank is a little extreme. A tank is heavily armored. Calling the P-47 a tank implies that it carried more armor than other fighters. The armor plate installed in US fighters in WWII was pretty much limited to a plate behind the pilot, and sometimes a smaller one just in front of the cockpit. Almost all had bulletproof glass in front of the pilot, either in the windshield itself as P-51s and later P-47s had, or a separate glass plate inside the cockpit enclosure as the razorback P-47s used.

 

 

https://www.aircorpsaviation.com/july-august-dakota-territory-air-museum-p-47-update-4/

Edited November 21, 2022 by LukeFF

[Dragon1-1]

I've noticed a lot of pilot kills in SP, too. It has to do with unrealistic deflection shots AI can land. IRL, most WWII pilots would not take, or be able to land, deflection shots. The AI usually hits me flying perpendicular to them. This is, plain and simple, ahistorical. Skill levels below Ace should be limited to only shooting when both the target and the lead point are within the gunsight glass, unless the target is straight and level. Then, the next level down should be able to pull off a deflection shot. This would extend the AI fights greatly, and should reduce pilot kills because seat armor can provide a degree of protection from the rear, which is where gunshots should be coming from.