The 109s....

[Knarley-Bob]

Other than stabilizer, is there any trimming on these birds? They are kinda fun to fly..........

 

KB

[Skycat1969]

No. Rudder trim was an external tab by the ground crew before the mission, and there is no aileron trim. Flying was primarily stick and rudder inputs.

[FeuerFliegen]

11 hours ago, Skycat1969 said:

No. Rudder trim was an external tab by the ground crew before the mission, and there is no aileron trim. Flying was primarily stick and rudder inputs.

 

Was there not also an external tab for the ailerons that the ground crew could adjust?

[BubiHUN]

18 minutes ago, SCG_FeuerFliegen said:

 

Was there not also an external tab for the ailerons that the ground crew could adjust?

there was.

[FeuerFliegen]

2 minutes ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

there was.

 

thought so.  thanks.

[ITAF_Rani]

109 such a cool plane...

[R33GZ]

If you get your throttle settings just right, somewhere around the 2250 - 2300 RPM mark, she flys pretty straight and level with stabilizer trim. At least I find this is the case for the G2 and G4. Different engine models probably have a slightly different sweet spot

[Hotaru_Ito]

Most fighters don't have aileron trim. P-39 and P-47 do, not sure what else. Some have rudder trim. Honestly, sometimes I cheat and use the calibration wheel on my joystick.

 

If you really want fun with (lack of) trim, go to the I-16, which doesn't even have elevator trim. It's actually not so bad once you get cruising at the right throttle setting though. Likewise for the WWI planes, only a couple have trim there.

[Kurfurst]

When flown at cruise power settings, the plane will be in stabilised state. It had external tabs for fixed trim settings and a profiled tail to counteract torque. 

[feuerfrei]

07.11.2022 в 12:01, VO101Kurfurst сказал:

When flown at cruise power settings, the plane will be in stabilised state. It had external tabs for fixed trim settings and a profiled tail to counteract torque. 

 

Hello! I apologize for offtop, but for some reason I can’t send you a private message, it says that you can’t receive them, so I decided to write here. I saw your posts on the forum and decided to write. I'm looking for drawings or at least a normal sectional view of propeller group parts (blades + hub + spinner) from E-3, G-10, K-4 and FW190A-8 to FW190D-9. Didn't you meet? It seems that the drawings of these details in nature are no longer left. I bought VDM manuals - there is nothing sensible there. The maximum picture is in isometry, and out of the entire abundance of screws for MTT 109s - 2 pieces are shown in total, and then their projection, without dimensions, twist and other things. Junkers did not dare to buy, because it seems that there is about the same story. Could you help me with something? I will wait for your reply, thanks.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

On 11/5/2022 at 10:55 PM, Knarley-Bob said:

Other than stabilizer, is there any trimming on these birds? They are kinda fun to fly..........

 

KB

Why funny? You need to step on the ball to fly coordinated, it's easy to see during climbs and dives you need to push rudder to fly clean and reduce the drag because the  airframe is not straight. Constant work unfortunately or not if you want add drag  to not pick up much speed during dives or landing.

[Knarley-Bob]

7 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Why funny? You need to step on the ball to fly coordinated, it's easy to see during climbs and dives you need to push rudder to fly clean and reduce the drag because the  airframe is not straight. Constant work unfortunately or not if you want add drag  to not pick up much speed during dives or landing.

I said they are FUN to fly, not funny........?

[Supercharger]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:10 AM, feuerfrei said:

I'm looking for drawings or at least a normal sectional view of propeller group parts (blades + hub + spinner) from E-3, G-10, K-4 and FW190A-8 to FW190D-9

What do you want to do with this drawings? is it about the way they are functioning or just for some nice pictures? 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

It is quite interesting if you think about how the German aircraft designers took the standpoint of reducing aircraft complexity from the begining in terms of trim tabs etc. Contrast that to all the other German engineering that was overly complex.

Edited December 20, 2022 by -TBC-AeroAce

[BlitzPig_EL]

Like their tanks, with the exception of the Pz. III and IV.  And even at that their transmissions sucked. 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

23 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Like their tanks, with the exception of the Pz. III and IV.  And even at that their transmissions sucked. 

 

I was thinking about German tanks, then I was thinking about how Alied AC had all the tabs but not much in the way of engine automation. But the Germans made the choice of automated AC engines no tabs. 

 

In practice, from this game I like manual engines and tabs to deal with it compared to Axis craft with auto engine but cant trim. With Axis I never feel trimmed for the ocasion. 

 

PS Dyslexic so dont get at me for spelling

 

 

[=CFC=Conky]

On 11/5/2022 at 2:55 PM, Knarley-Bob said:

Other than stabilizer, is there any trimming on these birds? They are kinda fun to fly..........

 

KB

 

There was a tab that was set on the ground, usually set for trimmed flight at roughly 400km/h.

 

Good hunting,

CFC Conky

[Kurfurst]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:10 AM, feuerfrei said:

 

Hello! I apologize for offtop, but for some reason I can’t send you a private message, it says that you can’t receive them, so I decided to write here. I saw your posts on the forum and decided to write. I'm looking for drawings or at least a normal sectional view of propeller group parts (blades + hub + spinner) from E-3, G-10, K-4 and FW190A-8 to FW190D-9. Didn't you meet? It seems that the drawings of these details in nature are no longer left. I bought VDM manuals - there is nothing sensible there. The maximum picture is in isometry, and out of the entire abundance of screws for MTT 109s - 2 pieces are shown in total, and then their projection, without dimensions, twist and other things. Junkers did not dare to buy, because it seems that there is about the same story. Could you help me with something? I will wait for your reply, thanks.

 

Sorry I do not have any cross sectional drawings for the propeller group parts. I am sure they exist somewhere, but this is such a special area that is probably rarely touched in any generic technical documents. Perhaps in scientific periodicals of the time, or wherever DVL or VDM archives went to.. ?

[Guest deleted@50488]

109s also have a ground-adjustable elevator trim tab, the effects of which can be seen while on ground, aircraft braked, and power added - elevator will move from neutral.

Edited December 27, 2022 by cagarini

[BubiHUN]

On 12/27/2022 at 12:53 PM, cagarini said:

109s also have a ground-adjustable elevator trim tab, the effects of which can be seen while on ground, aircraft braked, and power added - elevator will move from neutral.

wich still cannot be set

[Guest deleted@50488]

1 hour ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

wich still cannot be set

 

Yep, it's "hardcoded" into the models, maybe adjusted for cruise...

[JG27*PapaFly]

On 12/20/2022 at 2:57 AM, -TBC-AeroAce said:

It is quite interesting if you think about how the German aircraft designers took the standpoint of reducing aircraft complexity from the begining in terms of trim tabs etc. Contrast that to all the other German engineering that was overly complex.

Indeed I get the impression that a good level of constructive interaction went on between plane developers and pilots. So many good design decisions touching complexity and cockpit layout. 

 

I find the simplicity of trim very useful in combat. A 109 or 190 will always behave the same while doing BFM, because aileron and rudder trim will always be the same.  A P-51 which I've trimmed on all axes for a maximum performance climb will behave differently during BFM compared to the same plane trimmed for a high cruise. I know,  one can re-set everything, but such details are easily overlooked when tracers are zipping by. A 190 or 109 is basically always ready to fight.

[Numl0k]

So I have a dumb question that's not worth it's own thread, and since y'all seem to understand these birds pretty well, maybe someone can clear it up; 

 

Does trim simply set the default/resting position of the same control surfaces you use for normal flight? Or is there a separate surface that's only controlled by the trim? Like, if I set my elevator trim to +20%, does that just set my elevators to rest in the same position that they'd be in if I pulled my stick 20%? Or is it something completely different?

[Hook_Echo]

5 hours ago, Numl0k said:

So I have a dumb question that's not worth it's own thread, and since y'all seem to understand these birds pretty well, maybe someone can clear it up; 

 

Does trim simply set the default/resting position of the same control surfaces you use for normal flight? Or is there a separate surface that's only controlled by the trim? Like, if I set my elevator trim to +20%, does that just set my elevators to rest in the same position that they'd be in if I pulled my stick 20%? Or is it something completely different?

 

109s and 190s have adjustable stabilizers, this adjusts the entire tail surface angle in relation to the plane.

 

Other planes have adjustable trim tabs. These are like an extra tiny elevator, that in turn pushes the main elevator surface to the position we want it because of the air resistance. It's hard to describe. A picture speaks 1000 words. 

 

Check it out in the game. Turn auto level on, switch to the third person camera, and adjust the trim. You'll see the stabilizer move on the German planes, and the trim tabs move on the other planes.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Hook_Echo

[dbuile]

Nice diagram, Hook_Echo. 

NumL0k:  Real Life pilots tell me: trim tabs reduce the forces needed to hold the controls in the desired position.  It doesn't work like a video game where it lets you put the stick back to center.    

[-TBC-AeroAce]

17 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Indeed I get the impression that a good level of constructive interaction went on between plane developers and pilots. So many good design decisions touching complexity and cockpit layout. 

 

I find the simplicity of trim very useful in combat. A 109 or 190 will always behave the same while doing BFM, because aileron and rudder trim will always be the same.  A P-51 which I've trimmed on all axes for a maximum performance climb will behave differently during BFM compared to the same plane trimmed for a high cruise. I know,  one can re-set everything, but such details are easily overlooked when tracers are zipping by. A 190 or 109 is basically always ready to fight.

That is the flip side, your get in a trim mess

[Knarley-Bob]

@Hook_Echo that diagram explains a lot. I was thinking they had the tabs going the wrong way, and why a minus setting was up, AND why some trims seem opposite on other planes. I'm no rocket scientist, but now it makes more sense, thank you.....

 

KB

[CAFulcrum]

On 12/29/2022 at 5:51 AM, dbuile said:

Nice diagram, Hook_Echo. 

NumL0k:  Real Life pilots tell me: trim tabs reduce the forces needed to hold the controls in the desired position.  It doesn't work like a video game where it lets you put the stick back to center.    

If you use a forcefeedback stick you'll get the real world effect where the trim 'pushes' the stick into a certain position.

 

I've always wondered if the game handles normal and FFB trim differently, and if there's any advantage to nonFFB (ie if you're resetting the 'zero' point of the joystick's center, doesn't that change the maximum throw you can pull the stick?  If the trim in non-FFB just adds force does it potentially add additional force to the action?)

[Crocogator]

On 12/31/2022 at 3:52 AM, CAFulcrum said:

If you use a forcefeedback stick you'll get the real world effect where the trim 'pushes' the stick into a certain position.

 

I've always wondered if the game handles normal and FFB trim differently, and if there's any advantage to nonFFB (ie if you're resetting the 'zero' point of the joystick's center, doesn't that change the maximum throw you can pull the stick?  If the trim in non-FFB just adds force does it potentially add additional force to the action?)

It does change the maximum amount of throw. Usually maximum throw is hard to reach without really tearing at the stick or going very slowly. In the latter case the centering stops anyway since there's no pressure on the control surfaces anymore.

So I usually think of the trimming on FFB less as changing the centre and more as adding a bias to a control axis.

[RossMarBow]

You should be constantly trimming the stab on the 109s.