Warthog Throttle toggle switches and IL-2

[1Sascha]

... I guess I'm too dumb to figure this out on my own, but... oh well.... ?

 

I'm trying to get my head around how I could make the game understand that I want to use the throttle's flaps switch for the 190 without having to go back to the center position of the switch every time I want to lower/raise flaps.

 

In theory, this should be doable in the 190, since that bird has three dedicated buttons to manipulate flaps - retracted, take-off and landing. The Throttle's switch has three physical positions - up, maneuver and down.

 

The problem I run into is how the switch actually works and sends out signals. From all I can see UP is button 22, DOWN is button 23 and MANEUVER is... nothing. In DCS this works like a charm. I guess that game reads "constant press of button 22 = keep flaps raised - once button 22 is released = set maneuvering flaps". Or something like that.

 

I'm already using Joy2Key for some other stuff with my sims (well, axes and buttons to keys, mostly... duh! ? ) and ideally I don't want to get into yet another helper-app and/or TARGET to get this done.

 

So... is there a way to make IL-2 190s behave like the A-10 in DCS? Meaning:

 

- physical switch set to UP/button 22 pressed constantly = flaps up

- switch set to "MANEUVER"/button 22 released = drop flaps to take-off position.

- switch set to "LANDING"/button 23 pressed = drop flaps to landing position.

- switch pushed from "LANDING" to "MANEUVER"/button 23 released = raise flaps from landing to take-off

- switch pushed back to UP from "LANDING" or from "MANEUVER"/button 22 pressed and held or button 23 released then button 22 pressed and held = retract flaps to flight position.

 

?

 

Same applies to some other toggles I can't get to work perfectly. Like pinky toggle forward which I use for nav-lights, but I can't see a way to make the physical toggle "link up" with IL-2's handling of such switches. Meaning if I go from neutral to forward on the physical switch, the lights will come on, but if I want to switch them off again, I have to pull the toggle back to neutral, then push it forward again and only then will the in-game light-switch get thrown.

Ideally, it should be: Toggle forward = lights on, toggle back to neutral = lights off.

 

 

 

 

S.

Edited November 5, 2022 by 1Sascha

[Sokol1]

Quote

In theory, this should be doable in the 190, since that bird has three dedicated buttons to manipulate flaps - retracted, take-off and landing.

 

The question is that IL-2 GB only use two keys for control flaps, one of the few commands in game that use more than one key,  instead of the common "press key "*" once for ON (or up, close..), press key "* "again for OFF (or down, open..)" 

 

* = any key or combo, e.g. LCtrl+A

 

Not sure but think default keys is this (mine was changed for F and V):

 

F = Flaps up

LCtrl+F = Flaps down

 

Hence in Fw 190 you need press Cltr+F for take-off flaps and after F for retract flaps.

 

LCtrl + F twice for landing flaps and F twice for retract flaps

 

This approach "less keys, all in same keys press - press once for ON..., press again for OFF...." make difficult use latching ON-OFF-ON toggle switches without advanced scripting with 3rd part programs, that make this ON-OFF-ON switch follow the "truth table" logic, pressing one key when moved down in two steeps - positions OFF an ON (down) ad pressing another key when moved up in two steeps - positions OFF an ON (down).

 

The "truth table" was use for program this 3 positions switch - using JoyToKey, but I don't remember what was done at time. iL-2 in this case was the old 1946, who have restrictive commands options like this game.  The switch work like a encoder.

 

 

 

 

JoyTokey has option for  "key on press" and "key on release" (not exact with this names), so allow set a ON-OFF switch, for example, for IL-2, Spitfire flaps that are Up or Down, but not for one like Fw 190.

 

Quote

.. lights...

 

Light controls have a complication that some planes use one command (default L - press for ON, press again for OFF) for all lights, some planes require L for cockpit lights then L again navigation lights, L in reverse order for turn off or L for all OFF (don't remember).

Edited November 6, 2022 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

Anyway test this configuration

• In game controls change flap down for V  - JoyToKey don't work well for Alt, Ctrl, Shift + key due how game keypress is timed. 

 

in JoyToKey set for this ON-OFF-ON swtich:

 

• Button 22 (3 position switch up) set Input 1 - V an Input 2 - F.
• Button 23 (3 position switch down) set Input 1 - F and Input 2 - V.

 

For both buttons tick the option:

• [Input 1] when the buttons is released (and [Input2] when it's pressed)  - I thik is the inverse, but don't matter.

 

 

I don't have a 3 position switch there, but simulate one with button 1 and 2 of VKB Gladiator base.

 

So if none of the buttons 1 and 2 is pressed - simulating the middle  OFF position of 3 position switch;  Fw 190 flaps is in take-off.  In JoyToKey key V pressed "on release."

If button 1 is pressed and held - simulating upper ON position of 3 position switch; Fw 190 flaps is in retracted.  In JoyToKey key F pressed "on press"

If button 2 is pressed and held - simulating down ON position of 3 position switch; Fw 190 flaps is in landing.  In JoyToKey key V pressed "on press."

 

This give you a logical operation:

 

• ON(up) > OFF > ON (down): V > V
• ON(down) > OFF > ON(up): F > F

 

For use this settings in a plane with Up or Down flap, e.g. IL-2, Spitfire... use only "half" of the switch - ON(up) and OFF (middle).

 

But for planes with flaps set on "press and held for 'xx' degrees" like Bf 109, LaGG-3, Hurricane... need create another profile in JoyToKey, with button 22 pressing F and button 23 pressing V, OFF position will do nothing.

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Sokol1

[1Sascha]

LOL... thanks, Sokol!  This is way more complicated than it would have to be. That IL-2 keymapper really needs an overhaul.

 

Yeah... I think I'd rather not have to switch between J2K-profiles just to switch planes in game. It's inconvenient to have to return to center /off on the toggle for some of the functions, but I think I'm too lazy for the solution you pointed out there. I also looked into TARGET, but man... that thing is even more complicated. Even with the manual in front of me, half the time I have no idea what they are on about in that thing.. ?

 

Besides: That toggle is actually quite handy in the 109 since you can just flick it to UP or DOWN and the flaps will be lowered or raised for as long as you don't flip it back to center/off. Almost feels like cheating..  

 

 

S.

Edited November 6, 2022 by 1Sascha

[Sokol1]

13 hours ago, 1Sascha said:

I think I'd rather not have to switch between J2K-profiles just to switch planes in game.

 

It's a minimal inconvenient, just need Alt+Tab to select the other profile - JoyToKey can be reconfigured "on the fly". Can change the profile in game, without Alt+Tab, but for this is need waste a throttle/stick button.

 

Your observation about Bf 109 flaps show why different profile is need, different planes have different operations for commands.

 

Regarding TARGET you will achieve the same with the graphical programming, so no advantage, because TARGET "weights" ways more than JoyToKey. The ideal is dive in their C(?) scripting programming, so can do "magics" like BF 109 aileron, rudder trim cheater.

 

If your reluctance to use JoyToKey is due to having to change the default keys assignment ("V" instead "Ctrl+F" for flaps down|) try with RSMapper, this software don't have problem with IL-2:GB keys press timing, so can use "Ctrl+F" without "collateral effect". Downside of RSMapper is don't see analog axes.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Sokol1

[1Sascha]

15 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

If your reluctance to use JoyToKey

Oh no... I've been using Joy2Key for a long time. I think there's still a thread on here somewhere from way back when where I discuss how to use Joy2Key to turn a stick-button into a toggle-switch to activate gunsight-view without having to hold down said button.

 

I just don't want to add yet another app to my list of stuff I need to start before I can jump into the air.

Right now, it's "just" Joy2Key and Opentrack for non-VR but it gets a little crazier if I fly VR. Plus having to physically "re-configure" my desk adds to the "work-load" (move two mounts into their gaming positions, crawl under the desk to pull pedals forward, pull monitor towards me, adjust seat-height and arm-rests, lock chair's casters in place, etc.).

 

It's too bad that we can't use, say, VKB Config to customize non-VKB products. That thing isn't very intuitive either, but it does work pretty well once you know what you're doing. Plus it uploads your profile to the stick itself and the profile will stay there and active, even if you re-boot the PC. For example: I stopped using Joy2Key for that toggle-function once I found out how to turn VKB-stick-buttons into toggle-switches using VKB-config. It also seems to prevent IL-2 getting "confused" by Joy2Key sometimes.

 

The main reason why I still use Joy2Key at all ATM is because of Discord and its inability to distinguish between two separate joysticks. Say, button 10 on your stick is set as PTT, then button 10 on your throttle (and probably on any other device with a button 10) will also trigger PTT. So I'm using a keyboard key for PTT and then turn my WHT's mic button into said key via Joy2Key.

 

 

S.

Edited November 7, 2022 by 1Sascha

[JG27*PapaFly]

23 hours ago, 1Sascha said:

I also looked into TARGET, but man... that thing is even more complicated. Even with the manual in front of me, half the time I have no idea what they are on about in that thing.. ?

 

Besides: That toggle is actually quite handy in the 109 since you can just flick it to UP or DOWN and the flaps will be lowered or raised for as long as you don't flip it back to center/off. Almost feels like cheating..  

I used heavily customized key mapping on keyboard, mouse,  and 5 other USB devices. What you ask for would take 5 minutes to set up using TARGET. IMO you should invest the time and get started with it, since it opens a wide range of possibilities.

1) You will be able to assign actions to button releases in addition to button presses. 

2) You can assign different actions to a sequence of presses of the same button.

3) You can use up to 5 profiles in one setting.  Target offers 3 main profiles,  which you select with the PATH 3-way switch. I use one for FW190, one for BF109, and one for the rest.  Using that function you can set up the FLAPS switch  differently for the 109.

Personally,  I use the flap switch for releasing and retracting the gear (moving from neutral to down and back into neutral), and for speed brakes (neutral-up-neutral). IMO the FLAPS button is too far away from my hand and hidden behind the throttles to be of use as a flap switch. I have my flap switch on my VIRPIL ALPHA grip,  right below my thumb at all times.

[1Sascha]

1 hour ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Personally,  I use the flap switch for releasing and retracting the gear (moving from neutral to down and back into neutral)

Actually, I might do in IL-2 what I do in some other flight-sims: Use the ENG OPER IGN-R switch to toggle gear up/down. That thing sits perfectly under my thumb with the throttle fully forward and is thus very easy to use on take-off. It's a bit more awkward to reach at lower throttle settings, but still serviceable. Plus the spring loaded action of the up/forward position is much easier to actuate than most of the other "hard" toggle switches on the base.

 

1 hour ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

I have my flap switch on my VIRPIL ALPHA grip,  right below my thumb at all times.

I don't really use my flaps while fighting (I like to stay fast) but I just might try putting flaps up/down on my VKB MCG Pro's lower thumb-hat. Can't hurt to be able to drop 10% or so of flaps "on the fly" in the 109.

 

S.

[JG27*PapaFly]

1 hour ago, 1Sascha said:

I don't really use my flaps while fighting (I like to stay fast) but I just might try putting flaps up/down on my VKB MCG Pro's lower thumb-hat.

Speed is life,  I hear you. I fly almost exclusively 190s, where often speed is the only advantage I have. These birds have electrically operated flaps which are fast to deploy and give a significant increase in turn rate. I use combat flaps when I am about to shoot an opponent and need the extra bit of turn rate to make it happen.  After a turn of maximum 90 degrees I'm usually letting go and either unload or zoom back up. If the opponent is stupid enough to follow me on the upline he usually gets blown out of the sky by my ever present buddy. Or by me in the downline ?

[Sokol1]

On 11/7/2022 at 8:16 AM, 1Sascha said:

It also seems to prevent IL-2 getting "confused" by Joy2Key sometimes.

 

I remember another "no go" for IL-2:GB and JoyToKey.

 

if you have a key continuously pressed, eg. that throttle ON-OFF-ON switch in upper ON position pressing "F", the "Esc" key stop work. ?

 

In this regard RSMapper is 'bullet proof".

 

 

[1Sascha]

10 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

if you have a key continuously pressed, eg. that throttle ON-OFF-ON switch in upper ON position pressing "F", the "Esc" key stop work. ?

Yup... that still happens to me - but of course I'd forgotten exactly why it was happening. Thanks for reminding me. I tried using those two throttle buttons and Joy2Key to get the ability to switch the engine on and off by going over the lower detent, but it simply doesn't work correctly and reliably. Went and deleted those J2K mappings and mapped the EAC switch in-game to start/stop the engine. Not as "immersive", but works much more reliably.

 

I'm also still getting weird behavior (very rarely but it does happen) when I fly non-VR. There I'm using the MCG's brake lever to send out "Numpad0" as a toggle to switch to and stay on the gunsight. Was too lazy to configure the MCG in VKB Config to do this but then I remembered why I did use the VKB SW before with the Gladiator Evo. No trouble whatsoever if you do it with the VKB software whereas doing it in Joy2Key will sometimes result in gunsight view and regular view "swapping places" when it comes to TiR/Opentrack... meaning you won't be able to move your head around in normal view but gunsight view *will* be moved by TrackIR.

 

Not even sure if all this is down more to J2K or to IL-2 getting confused by buttons continually sending out signals (like the WH's throttle detent buttons or any of the togggle switches). I guess it's J2K's fault since when I was using the Gladiator and had its pinky lever/switch altered to a toggle in the VKB SW, everything worked just fine in the game.

 

S.

[JG27*PapaFly]

11 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

throttle ON-OFF-ON switch in upper ON position pressing "F", the "Esc" key stop work. ?

I ran into that issue with the TARGET software as well. A spammed key disables the Esc key. I solved it in TARGET by adding a key release after,  say, 3 seconds. It's mostly limited to buttons and switches which have no self- centering function / no neutral state.