Is the game more "shrewd" about awarding kills in single player?

[RyanR]

 

Since the latest release, I've noticed two things:

 

Kills aren't as easily rewarded in single player. Admittedly, the game was pretty generous giving out kills in the past. For example, if someone else shoots a bad guy down, but you got a shot on him, you got the kill. It was silly enough that I'd put some 7.62's into a ground target on escort missions, then when an IL-2 blew the target up for real, I'd get credit for, like, a truck. The pendulum seems to have swung the other way in the recent release. With the latest release, you can basically shred a fighter and set him on fire and not get the kill. The cause is a bit concerning:

 

The friendly AI seems to do the old school multiplayer thing, in that they'll shoot up a doomed plane. IIRC, we used to call it "vulching" in online sims when you shoot someone down... but 47 other people try to get more lead into the dead plane to steal a kill. That "level of maturity" was part of the reason I got into IL-2 20 years ago. Now it feels like the AI in the single player game are acting like the human beings that made multiplayer frustrating. There's an irony here.

 

Anyone else notice this?

 

-Ryan

Edited October 31, 2022 by RyanR

[Leftenant_Soap]

Yes moreover I have noticed AI teammates firing over my shoulder to hit my target, leading to a sort of meta where I don't support my wingmen at all, just race to get my victory before AI steals it. Not a huge problem when AI does succeed at their little game because more likely than not that pilot will be killed within the next few sorties and replaced with another forgettable randomly generated pilot.

 

As for how the game calculates who gets credit for the kill it seems about right to me.

[Hotaru_Ito]

In general I think the kill awarding is fair. As you say, it's definitely a lot less silly than it used to be, where the human player got credit for anything they'd given so much as a dirty look to. Helps a little with the "one of these is not like the others" effect of a human pilot on the career scoreboard, too.

 

Only problem is the game is a little too slow to register planes as shot down so the AI ignores them. You can see this with icons on: the plane is still considered active and attackable by the AI until the icon disappears, but the icon stays on until the pilot is dead or bailing out. So whereas I immediately stop attacking when I see engine fire, tail shot off, unrecoverable spin, etc., the AI will continue and sometimes get credit for my victory. Not game-breaking, but a little annoying to be robbed of a kill now and then.

[RyanR]

All true.

 

It's hard to remember that "kills" aren't what it's all about. When the game is at its best, I'm happy just to damage the bad guys just enough to send them home so we can accomplish our objective. Nothing like escorting bombers into a hornet's nest!

 

-Ryan

[busdriver]

5 hours ago, DD_Soapy said:

Yes moreover I have noticed AI teammates firing over my shoulder to hit my target,

 

They've been doing that for years, it's not something new.

[oc2209]

6 hours ago, RyanR said:

The friendly AI seems to do the old school multiplayer thing, in that they'll shoot up a doomed plane. IIRC, we used to call it "vulching" in online sims when you shoot someone down... but 47 other people try to get more lead into the dead plane to steal a kill. That "level of maturity" was part of the reason I got into IL-2 20 years ago. Now it feels like the AI in the single player game are acting like the human beings that made multiplayer frustrating. There's an irony here.

 

Anyone else notice this?

 

Honestly, no.

 

I started a new 109 career in Moscow, set it to 'hard' difficulty, and promptly had my wing broken in half (in the middle, not the tip section) by 3x12.7mm AP shots from a MiG.

 

Second sortie, I got two I-16 kills, damaged a third with incredibly poor accuracy because I was worried about being hit because it took me way too long to set up on him--anyway, I do have a point:

 

I'm always outnumbered and about to be shot. I don't even see my wingmen, much less need to worry about them shooting over my shoulder or stealing my kills.

 

Even if they did steal some of my kills, I wouldn't really care. Because for a long time now, I've profited from the exceedingly generous kill system whereby I can nick an enemy's oil line, and have them crash 10-20 minutes later in their own territory, unobserved by anyone, and I still got credit.

 

If my kills per sortie drop now, it'd be both more realistic and a bit of gaming karmic balancing.

 

4 hours ago, Hotaru_Ito said:

Only problem is the game is a little too slow to register planes as shot down so the AI ignores them. You can see this with icons on: the plane is still considered active and attackable by the AI until the icon disappears, but the icon stays on until the pilot is dead or bailing out. So whereas I immediately stop attacking when I see engine fire, tail shot off, unrecoverable spin, etc., the AI will continue [...]

 

Agreed. It's also a bit ridiculous when, just today, I saw an I-16 (cannon armed) blow the wing off a 109 not in my flight. I-16 kept shooting while the 109 was locked in its death spin. Pilot couldn't escape, so the AI saw it as a valid target.

 

I'm not totally opposed to AI continuing to fire on flaming/smoking targets, since you do read pilot accounts that say the same thing. Some people like to shoot until the target literally disintegrates. Even if most human pilots don't, it's not absurdly unrealistic behavior such that the AI needs to be told not to do it.

 

But wing breakage should definitely end the 'target lock.'

Edited November 1, 2022 by oc2209

[Guster]

I have not noticed any difference with the latest release. I mostly enjoy the game by setting up sandbox-style MP deathmatch scenarios with respawning AI planes and ground units and play them on my own. I'm pretty sure I score a lot more kills than is reasonable, simply because I've landed a few hits here and there, but I try not to pay much attention to it.

 

I do wish there were a way to disable the current default MP point system and replace it with a simple kill/shared kill option based on the amount of damage inflicted by different planes. Or perhaps even better, disable it all together and let the players keep count on their own. That way you'd never know for sure and you'd probably overclaim as much as they did IRL, but I find that sort of uncertainty intriguing. I'm aware the mission cannot be won by either side then, but there are endless ways of setting up other objectives in the editor or just use a timer to end the mission.

[KevPBur]

I have noticed it too and have been able to use it to get two of my wingmen to aces by leaving them to planes I'd damaged.

Now, if they can just keep themselves alive, they can hopefully be more use in the next missions.

[Knarley-Bob]

Yes, I have noticed that too. Air targets and ground targets alike. Nothing like tracers flying past the canopy, and nothing behind you but wingmen, been shot down more than once. BUT, getting back to base is better than not. Am learning that fewer 'kills' equals longer life in the game..........

Made it back on my last mission alone, the whole flight, bombers and wingmen all gone. I hit a number of planes, got no credit for them, but realized it was time to pull the plug. Getting back is becoming the goal, as it was in real life. Kills are just icing on the cake..........

KB

[RyanR]

5 hours ago, KevPBur said:

I have noticed it too and have been able to use it to get two of my wingmen to aces by leaving them to planes I'd damaged.

Now, if they can just keep themselves alive, they can hopefully be more use in the next missions.

 

 

Now that is an interesting take on things. I assumed that wingmen leveled up just from flying, but this makes sense. Unfortunately, flying 190's at Stalingrad means that wingmen don't live very long.

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Knarley-Bob said:

Yes, I have noticed that too. Air targets and ground targets alike. Nothing like tracers flying past the canopy, and nothing behind you but wingmen, been shot down more than once. BUT, getting back to base is better than not. Am learning that fewer 'kills' equals longer life in the game..........

Made it back on my last mission alone, the whole flight, bombers and wingmen all gone. I hit a number of planes, got no credit for them, but realized it was time to pull the plug. Getting back is becoming the goal, as it was in real life. Kills are just icing on the cake..........

KB

 

 

Totally agree. Sometimes I need to smack myself when the tunnel vision comes on and I just go after "kills". I wish it was easier to make a "controlled egress" out of combat when the situation goes south. It would be nice to try to save as many friendlies as possible.

 

-Ryan

 

[Knarley-Bob]

7 hours ago, KevPBur said:

I have noticed it too and have been able to use it to get two of my wingmen to aces by leaving them to planes I'd damaged.

Now, if they can just keep themselves alive, they can hopefully be more use in the next missions.

I'm not too sure wingmen learn anything.

[Hotaru_Ito]

34 minutes ago, Knarley-Bob said:

I'm not too sure wingmen learn anything.

 

They do in PWCG. Not sure about vanilla career though. There is a stat for "AILevel" in the career database, so they do have a skill level set per pilot. Don't know if it increases with experience or not.

[LukeFF]

19 minutes ago, Hotaru_Ito said:

Don't know if it increases with experience or not.

 

Yes, it does.

[Ram399]

57 minutes ago, Knarley-Bob said:

I'm not too sure wingmen learn anything.

 
Oh, they do.  Trust me.

[KevPBur]

6 minutes ago, Ram399 said:

 
Oh, they do.  Trust me.

 

Blimey, they are some impressive numbers. I'm happy if I see a couple in my unit with 6 or 7 air kills.

 

[Knarley-Bob]

O.K. the AIs on which side is the question...........

Just flew the same mission twice. Flew them differently, same results. All the bad guys chasing ONE plane. I'll give you a hint: It wasn't my wingmen......

End of career......Bright side....I'm getting a NEW plane ? 

Perhaps the AI wingmen are learning that I am good bait?

Before my Dad was shot down, he said that his crew didn't want to talk to him too much because he started taking "Lots of hits", they figured his time was about up. Must have been something to that......

Edited November 2, 2022 by Knarley-Bob

[KevPBur]

I used to be singled out be the enemy ai untill I realised they pick on the obvious target. If you ignore your wingmen and go it alone then all the enemy ai pick you as the easy target compared to the other 3 planes staying together. I started trying to atleast stay close to my flight at least in the initial stages of the fight thus not making myself an obvious target and now have much more success.

Of course if the rest of your flight get shot down and you are in the slower plane and unable to escape then all the enemy will gang up on you. Try to make a run for it before you are last man, or better still try to help your wingmen to stay alive.

[Gravesad]

On 11/2/2022 at 6:35 PM, Ram399 said:

 
Oh, they do.  Trust me.

Which fighter squadron is that?

[Ram399]

5 hours ago, Gravesad said:

Which fighter squadron is that?

II./JG 52.  They're good for flying in all three eastern theaters.